clinical question for experienced practitioners

[Guest guest]

Jason,

Have you found that internal medicine books that are not translated into English

are that

much more sophisticated? I wonder if its a matter of selling a simplified CM to

us or is just

a reflection of TCM in China.

 

 

 

from :

 

 

Without question it is not just a reflection of TCM in China! These books (i.e.

Shanghai

series) are completely simplified. Now granted I tend to buy books that appeal

to me and

offer me something more that basic info, but most any Chinese textbook or other

book

(on a specific topic) will give one a much greater and flexible perspective

(than these).

 

In general I find Chinese books have much more info than Western counterparts.

Now the

gap is narrowing because people are doing direct translations of many of these

texts, but

even something as great as the Jiao books (in English) are just one of many in

China. In

regard to internal medicine texts: I will routinely go to my Chinese Internal

medicine books

for consultation, because I usually find more data and explanation, i.e.

pathomechanisms

etc. But don¡¯t get me wrong there are many many great English books that can

allow one

to treat at a high level. There are also some English ones that are just

simplified

cookbooks, that I think are pretty much useless. There is always a range in any

language.

But here I am specifically talking about the books produced in China for the

westerner

and these are a whole different breed.

 

-

[Guest guest]

From Jason:

 

 

{Doug} Conversly we hear that China would like to institute the same type of

hospital

oriented TCM in the West. This strategy would provide a lot of jobs for Chinese

practitioners

comfortable in the hospital system and books like these might lay the path not

just for

Western but for Chinese practitioners here. In the same way that allowed TCM to

" integrate " with WM in China.

 

 

 

I think this is slippery slope.

 

{Doug} The word colonization means that the Chinese actually believe themselves

that CM

is less

important than WM. Knowing different and selling us this Westernized version is

better

called fraud. :-)

 

 

 

Precisely, many in China feel WM is superior! Isn¡¯t it the dominant medicine?

In the past I

have always supported integration, and still do, BUT I am very cautious of this

Westernized

version of TCM, especially when many of the ideas are propagated without being

tested

(research or time) and furthermore based on some western medical understanding

(that

may not even be true). Yes, selling such slick cookbook versions for western

diseases is

IMO potential fraud. Now on the other side of the coin I think there are many

great doctors

that have (and are) treating Western Diseases very successfully. I think

understanding the

western disease dynamic and integrating it with CM can be helpful, i.e. with

hepatitis. But

without an extremely rooted and secure foundation in CM, one is asking for

trouble. One

of the points I think Volker made was, what happens when a western doctor,

interested in

CM, gets a hold of one of these books (or ideas) and says, wow this sounds

great, let us

put it to the test. The way these ideas (books) are presented is that things are

much more

rigid that the real-time clinic. His point is that many times the method will

just fail. This

will not get us into hospitals.

 

-

[Guest guest]

I have to chime in here that I have found kidney yin xu to be fairly common

in menopause and that zhi bai di huang wan has worked most of the time to

alleviate the symptoms in those yin xu cases. I don't see a lot of patients

compared to many on this forum, but I figure that the yin xu diagnosis and

treatment has worked well dozens of times in my experience. I do agree that

liver qi stagnation was also present in many of those cases, and I also

treated that pattern. I also agree that the value of this discussion is that

we need to always use our diagnostic skills and not revert to knee-jerk

diagnoses.

 

- Bill

.............................................

Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

P.O. Box 8099

Santa Cruz, CA 95061

 

office phone: 831-335-3165

email: plantmed

.............................................

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I would just add that you find a similar phenomenon in acupuncture.

You can 'fish around' a little for the points (or a lot for ah-shi),

but you better be able to start of at the right point. Too many

people in acupuncture schools (and practice?) just 'feel the point,

man..' and needle all willy-nilly. It makes sense to start off with

the textbook patterns, and then modify / jump ship. At least know

what patterns are likely, what they look like, and then deviate to

your patient's picture. Too many people in school would have a

diagnosis like hot flashes d/t yin xu with sp xu with ki xu and

lingering pathogenic heat with bl xu and repressed emotions blah blah

blah. That said, in school, we would say somebody has yin xu because

of night sweating - but then after you are in practice for a while,

you find it's actually due to a down comforter, not yin xu (or

repressed emotions).

Be awake,

Geoff

 

, " "

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> The issue with menopause is more complex, and all I can say for

> now is that a broad perspective is helpful, with as much input from

> different sources, before making a clinical decision.

[Guest guest]

HI Sharon

 

I think that your question touches the crux of the debate. Some equate the

situation with aging and move directly to K Yin Xu w/ empty heat.

 

I think that the age range of 50 can be a useful guide to what patterns are

likely. However, a person either manifests a pattern or they don't. Many

patients in this age range won't manifest or manifests only mildly S/S's of K

Yin Xu (most do, but not all...my patient population)

 

The key is to see what is manifested and treat that. As Anne Crowley pointed

out...frequently there are Liver Qi issues...Sp Xu and maybe Yang Xu. In my own

patient population I see damp or Damp Heat as well and have found that if I

don't address this too...I don't get good results.

 

So, in regards to your question, IMO the age can help me think what patterns

are possible/likely...confirm or deny and treat what I see

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

sharon weizenbaum <sweiz wrote:

My question - is there anything about the fact that they are 50 and

around the age of menopause that effects your treatment? In other

words, if you took the fact that they are in the age arena of

menopause completely out of the picture and then treated what you

see, would your treatment be different than if this information was

in the picture?