Guest guest Posted December 29, 2006 Report Share Posted December 29, 2006 Hi. Can anyone explain to me what that diagnosis means, 'water shooting the pure yang'? Is it a level of clouded thinking or dull awareness caused by invisible phlegm? Maybe phlegm caused by emotional stagnation, making the shen less bright or hopeful? Deficient kidney yang and yuan chi, and/or with san jiao channel problems? It's an interesting phrase I heard from a practitioner I admire, but it didn't seem to be captured by the usual sign-symptom differential diagnosis approach. Maybe a personal take on mind body disharmony? Thanks for any feedback. Fran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2006 Report Share Posted December 29, 2006 Fran, I've never heard of such a diagnosis in 25 years of practice. Find out the Chinese and/or pinyin, and I'll try to find it in my Chinese medical dictionaries. On Dec 28, 2006, at 5:56 PM, ykcul_ritsym wrote: > Hi. Can anyone explain to me what that diagnosis means, 'water > shooting the pure yang'? Is it a level of clouded thinking or dull > awareness caused by invisible phlegm? Maybe phlegm caused by emotional > stagnation, making the shen less bright or hopeful? Deficient kidney > yang and yuan chi, and/or with san jiao channel problems? > It's an interesting phrase I heard from a practitioner I admire, but > it didn't seem to be captured by the usual sign-symptom differential > diagnosis approach. Maybe a personal take on mind body disharmony? > Thanks for any feedback. Fran > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2006 Report Share Posted December 31, 2006 Zev, I'm nowhere near your and others level with this science, which is why I wanted to put out this line of thought, so I might be able to learn more and have my pondering corrected. That phrase fascinates me as it points to an interuption of the subtle homeostasis assumed to be present in tcm physiology. I have been unable to find a pinyin or chinese equivalent to that diagnosis. I suspect now that maybe his phrase was not so much a legitimate syndrome, but instead a reflection influenced by his personal experience as an endocrinologist in china before coming to usa, when he was working tcm in psychiatric hospitals in china, and saw phlegm/damp pulse and tongue signs in many patients suffering from the idiosyncratic kuang-dian manic depressive, raging and fearful hallucinatory syndromes there. And when addressing invisible damp/phlegm (I say invisible, because the tongue and pulse were the only manifestations of the dampness) as a primary pathogen herbally, saw many patients return to a more lucid state quickly, often in a day or two. Pretty awesome when you think of the various personal environmental, historical origins of their affliction. The Pure Yang, (as I understand it- the essence of essences that from its kidey yuan qi overabundance, fills and rises up the spinal column, touching the entire channel/organ complex along the way to the head, where it manifests as the clarity or clearness of the senses and thinking, the unperturbed awareness that is the foundation of the activities of the more active and observable shen), may not be an ascertainable clinical organ function, as much as the bing yin of a misting of the heart orifice, or spleen unable to nourish heart/shen, or liver shu xie function becoming depressed> stagnated> liver heat and hardness> heat rises to head>stagnation makes more fire> fire feeds agitation which reinforces the dysfunctional cycle etc, but I wonder how could the Pure Yang be a benchmark of clinical health, like a good cholesteral count or an absence of cancer markers. I know this borders on or even swims in purely philosophical seas, but looking at the interactive effect of real substances like oyster shell, pearl, amber, magnetite, hematite, mirabilite and cinnabar for calming the shen; and scorpion, centipede, and hornet's nest to clear the channels not just of pain/stagnation, but also of damp; chrysanthemum to clear upper senses heat and damp; and shen qu, ban xia and honey fried licorice to help their assimilation; and things like suan zao ren to nourish the spleen-heart relationship. I wonder if my idea of sound mental health might need a little tweaking. It made me wonder about levels of clouded awareness we all may have in ordinary. The very active word 'shooting' the pure yang, implies an intrusion into the mind, into the continuity of awareness a very personal space that if we are talking about pure awareness, we all have in common. Behind and beyond the interdependency of our lives is the independence of our spirit(s). Maybe I should ask for another lecture on the nature of pathogenic damp/phlegm <zrosenbe wrote: Fran, I've never heard of such a diagnosis in 25 years of practice. Find out the Chinese and/or pinyin, and I'll try to find it in my Chinese medical dictionaries. On Dec 28, 2006, at 5:56 PM, ykcul_ritsym wrote: > Hi. Can anyone explain to me what that diagnosis means, 'water > shooting the pure yang'? Is it a level of clouded thinking or dull > awareness caused by invisible phlegm? Maybe phlegm caused by emotional > stagnation, making the shen less bright or hopeful? Deficient kidney > yang and yuan chi, and/or with san jiao channel problems? > It's an interesting phrase I heard from a practitioner I admire, but > it didn't seem to be captured by the usual sign-symptom differential > diagnosis approach. Maybe a personal take on mind body disharmony? > Thanks for any feedback. Fran > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2006 Report Share Posted December 31, 2006 Zev, I'm nowhere near your and others level with this science, which is why I wanted to put out this line of thought, so I might be able to learn more and have my pondering corrected. That phrase fascinates me as it points to an interuption of the subtle homeostasis assumed to be present in tcm physiology. I have been unable to find a pinyin or chinese equivalent to that diagnosis. I suspect now that maybe his phrase was not so much a legitimate syndrome, but instead a reflection influenced by his personal experience as an endocrinologist in china before coming to usa, when he was working tcm in psychiatric hospitals in china, and saw phlegm/damp pulse and tongue signs in many patients suffering from the idiosyncratic kuang-dian manic depressive, raging and fearful hallucinatory syndromes there. And when addressing invisible damp/phlegm (I say invisible, because the tongue and pulse were the only manifestations of the dampness) as a primary pathogen herbally, saw many patients return to a more lucid state quickly, often in a day or two. Pretty awesome when you think of the various personal environmental, historical origins of their affliction. The Pure Yang, (as I understand it- the essence of essences that from its kidey yuan qi overabundance, fills and rises up the spinal column, touching the entire channel/organ complex along the way to the head, where it manifests as the clarity or clearness of the senses and thinking, the unperturbed awareness that is the foundation of the activities of the more active and observable shen), may not be an ascertainable clinical organ function, as much as the bing yin of a misting of the heart orifice, or spleen unable to nourish heart/shen, or liver shu xie function becoming depressed> stagnated> liver heat and hardness> heat rises to head>stagnation makes more fire> fire feeds agitation which reinforces the dysfunctional cycle etc, but I wonder how could the Pure Yang be a benchmark of clinical health, like a good cholesteral count or an absence of cancer markers. I know this borders on or even swims in purely philosophical seas, but looking at the interactive effect of real substances like oyster shell, pearl, amber, magnetite, hematite, mirabilite and cinnabar for calming the shen; and scorpion, centipede, and hornet's nest to clear the channels not just of pain/stagnation, but also of damp; chrysanthemum to clear upper senses heat and damp; and shen qu, ban xia and honey fried licorice to help their assimilation; and things like suan zao ren to nourish the spleen-heart relationship. I wonder if my idea of sound mental health might need a little tweaking. It made me wonder about levels of clouded awareness we all may have in ordinary. The very active word 'shooting' the pure yang, implies an intrusion into the mind, into the continuity of awareness a very personal space that if we are talking about pure awareness, we all have in common. Behind and beyond the interdependency of our lives is the independence of our spirit(s). Maybe I should ask for another lecture on the nature of pathogenic damp/phlegm <zrosenbe wrote: Fran, I've never heard of such a diagnosis in 25 years of practice. Find out the Chinese and/or pinyin, and I'll try to find it in my Chinese medical dictionaries. On Dec 28, 2006, at 5:56 PM, ykcul_ritsym wrote: > Hi. Can anyone explain to me what that diagnosis means, 'water > shooting the pure yang'? Is it a level of clouded thinking or dull > awareness caused by invisible phlegm? Maybe phlegm caused by emotional > stagnation, making the shen less bright or hopeful? Deficient kidney > yang and yuan chi, and/or with san jiao channel problems? > It's an interesting phrase I heard from a practitioner I admire, but > it didn't seem to be captured by the usual sign-symptom differential > diagnosis approach. Maybe a personal take on mind body disharmony? > Thanks for any feedback. Fran > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2006 Report Share Posted December 31, 2006 I have no idea what that is intended to translate or mean. Obviously, though, Water vs Fire (Yang) and the notion of complementary opposition (shooting) ring some kind of bell in the TCM/CM theory. This reminds me again of the translation problem, having run up against it again recently. An article " On Damp Heat & Hardening of the Kidneys " (by Kong Ling-Qi, in CJOM (Calif. Journal of Oriental Medicine), Vol 13 No. 1, Winter 2002) cites chapter titles in the SuWen which I can't trace down. E.g. " Treatise on Wilting " . In the index of both the Wu and Ni translations, there's no chapter title clearly corresponding. And searching chapters which might pertain (e.g. the one on " wei syndrome " ) finds no statement like the one Kong cites ( " The ancesttral sinews rule the binding of the bones… " ). Moreover, comparing the chapter title index of Wu's with Ni's translation, one might think they are translating totally different books. There's scant recognizable similarity. I've been working on a suspicion / hypothesis that classical Chinese (as opposed to modern, Western influenced Chinese) might often take advantage of, purposely exploit the ambiguity given by the fact that any one particular character or combination can have multiple meanings. Some might say, well I just do a literal translation. My theory is that that's virtually impossible. Classical Chinese (prior to extensive Western contact) is not a " literal " language (not built up from letters). It's a pictographic language (built of spatially grouped graphical figures). And that may inherently imply a frame of mind wherein multiple meanings can be purposely held in mind when " understanding " the text. The symbolic picture elements resonate at multiple levels. Another curious phenomenon I've noticed is that contemporary Chinese (people I know) routinely use " wrong " characters which have the same sound. E.g. in a traditionally written prescription (hand written, in columns from upper right going down, and then to the left, and usually somewhat flowery script) for a patient of mine, by a prominent master of ZhongYao, used the character Jiang as in GanJiang, i.e. ginger, but used it with Cang in specifying the herb CangJiang (the diseased silk worm carcus). Europeans/Westerns are somewhat fixated on literal correctness, as in spelling, grammar, etc. (Especially in English, where the kind of word-building and structural sentence building as is common in German is frowned upon.) This tendency may not automatically pertain to all languages. Another: In my herbal storeroom, several bags of BaiWei from different sources, are labeled (in Chinese) with at least two different characters used that both sound as " wei " . Yet another: In at least two lectures on acupuncture point functions, Jeffery Yuen has treated the characters " gu " for valley (as LI-4 hegu) and " gu " as in guqi/grainqi as at some level equivalent. I.e. his didactic point is that one can use all those points whose names contain either " gu " as a treatment, and he provides a clever example, weaving the sequence of points into a CM-logical rationale based on the point names and their functions. The very nature of language (and the thought qualities shaped by it) differs among different languages! Another datum is research I cited earlier somewhere in this forum. Namely 80% of human languages have a single word for blue and green; among them Chinese (classically). English and Germanic languages in general (English is a germanic language) have separate words, so we (Westerners) think, actually perceive that way. The research showed that distracting the right brain of Westerners while trying to differential the two colors impaired the differentiation. Conclusion: language conditions thought and perception, actually shapes the brain. So, my guess is that " Water shooting the Pure Yang " is probably an idiosyncratic translation of something we would likely recognize if worded otherwise. ---------- Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.0/610 - Release 12/30/2006 2:59 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2006 Report Share Posted December 31, 2006 That is interesting, and I thought about the water/fire connection too, but heart/shen, spleen not nourishing, and liver yang syndromes, in this instance (mental delusion, up to hallucinatory), were not the focus. The water (phlegm) is easy enough, but the Pure Yang as yang has only to do with its non-substative quality, not really heat or fire. The phrasing seems intended to encompass broader meanings for the entities and process, rather than a rewording of a typical syndrome, keeping the complementary/oppositional idiom. I don't know if its just another way of saying something, which is why I ask. Altho I know some of the herbs he used(pearl, amber, magnetite, scorpion etc), I don't have the basic formula, and I'm pretty sure he tailored from smaller appropriate formulas. The premise that he treated mental illness there often (not exclusively) by ridding the invisible damp/phlegm directly, made me wonder about mechanism that generated the phlegm (mental-emotional-shen dysfunction), about any substance or herb that may guide the formula to or have an affinity to the pure yang, and if it is a sort of separate or distinct syndrome, does it exist in levels from preclinical, up to fully delusional. I guess I'm banging on the door of an awareness question. Can, does, a false or negative continuing interpretation or awareness, be itself a pathogen. All this gets very necessarily wordy, which is why the succintness of 'water shooting the pure yang' intrigues me. Thanks, Fran. < wrote: I have no idea what that is intended to translate or mean. Obviously, though, Water vs Fire (Yang) and the notion of complementary opposition (shooting) ring some kind of bell in the TCM/CM theory. This reminds me again of the translation problem, having run up against it again recently. An article " On Damp Heat & Hardening of the Kidneys " (by Kong Ling-Qi, in CJOM (Calif. Journal of Oriental Medicine), Vol 13 No. 1, Winter 2002) cites chapter titles in the SuWen which I can't trace down. E.g. " Treatise on Wilting " . In the index of both the Wu and Ni translations, there's no chapter title clearly corresponding. And searching chapters which might pertain (e.g. the one on " wei syndrome " ) finds no statement like the one Kong cites ( " The ancesttral sinews rule the binding of the bones… " ). Moreover, comparing the chapter title index of Wu's with Ni's translation, one might think they are translating totally different books. There's scant recognizable similarity. I've been working on a suspicion / hypothesis that classical Chinese (as opposed to modern, Western influenced Chinese) might often take advantage of, purposely exploit the ambiguity given by the fact that any one particular character or combination can have multiple meanings. Some might say, well I just do a literal translation. My theory is that that's virtually impossible. Classical Chinese (prior to extensive Western contact) is not a " literal " language (not built up from letters). It's a pictographic language (built of spatially grouped graphical figures). And that may inherently imply a frame of mind wherein multiple meanings can be purposely held in mind when " understanding " the text. The symbolic picture elements resonate at multiple levels. Another curious phenomenon I've noticed is that contemporary Chinese (people I know) routinely use " wrong " characters which have the same sound. E.g. in a traditionally written prescription (hand written, in columns from upper right going down, and then to the left, and usually somewhat flowery script) for a patient of mine, by a prominent master of ZhongYao, used the character Jiang as in GanJiang, i.e. ginger, but used it with Cang in specifying the herb CangJiang (the diseased silk worm carcus). Europeans/Westerns are somewhat fixated on literal correctness, as in spelling, grammar, etc. (Especially in English, where the kind of word-building and structural sentence building as is common in German is frowned upon.) This tendency may not automatically pertain to all languages. Another: In my herbal storeroom, several bags of BaiWei from different sources, are labeled (in Chinese) with at least two different characters used that both sound as " wei " . Yet another: In at least two lectures on acupuncture point functions, Jeffery Yuen has treated the characters " gu " for valley (as LI-4 hegu) and " gu " as in guqi/grainqi as at some level equivalent. I.e. his didactic point is that one can use all those points whose names contain either " gu " as a treatment, and he provides a clever example, weaving the sequence of points into a CM-logical rationale based on the point names and their functions. The very nature of language (and the thought qualities shaped by it) differs among different languages! Another datum is research I cited earlier somewhere in this forum. Namely 80% of human languages have a single word for blue and green; among them Chinese (classically). English and Germanic languages in general (English is a germanic language) have separate words, so we (Westerners) think, actually perceive that way. The research showed that distracting the right brain of Westerners while trying to differential the two colors impaired the differentiation. Conclusion: language conditions thought and perception, actually shapes the brain. So, my guess is that " Water shooting the Pure Yang " is probably an idiosyncratic translation of something we would likely recognize if worded otherwise. ---------- Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.0/610 - Release 12/30/2006 2:59 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2006 Report Share Posted December 31, 2006 Actually, the pure yang, as it nourishes the spine, mind and senses, does imply some amount of warmth, but if the warmth itself varies, I guess it does. The warmth aspect doesn't seem to be what is messed with here tho. mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote: That is interesting, and I thought about the water/fire connection too, but heart/shen, spleen not nourishing, and liver yang syndromes, in this instance (mental delusion, up to hallucinatory), were not the focus. The water (phlegm) is easy enough, but the Pure Yang as yang has only to do with its non-substative quality, not really heat or fire. The phrasing seems intended to encompass broader meanings for the entities and process, rather than a rewording of a typical syndrome, keeping the complementary/oppositional idiom. I don't know if its just another way of saying something, which is why I ask. Altho I know some of the herbs he used(pearl, amber, magnetite, scorpion etc), I don't have the basic formula, and I'm pretty sure he tailored from smaller appropriate formulas. The premise that he treated mental illness there often (not exclusively) by ridding the invisible damp/phlegm directly, made me wonder about mechanism that generated the phlegm (mental-emotional-shen dysfunction), about any substance or herb that may guide the formula to or have an affinity to the pure yang, and if it is a sort of separate or distinct syndrome, does it exist in levels from preclinical, up to fully delusional. I guess I'm banging on the door of an awareness question. Can, does, a false or negative continuing interpretation or awareness, be itself a pathogen. All this gets very necessarily wordy, which is why the succintness of 'water shooting the pure yang' intrigues me. Thanks, Fran. < wrote: I have no idea what that is intended to translate or mean. Obviously, though, Water vs Fire (Yang) and the notion of complementary opposition (shooting) ring some kind of bell in the TCM/CM theory. This reminds me again of the translation problem, having run up against it again recently. An article " On Damp Heat & Hardening of the Kidneys " (by Kong Ling-Qi, in CJOM (Calif. Journal of Oriental Medicine), Vol 13 No. 1, Winter 2002) cites chapter titles in the SuWen which I can't trace down. E.g. " Treatise on Wilting " . In the index of both the Wu and Ni translations, there's no chapter title clearly corresponding. And searching chapters which might pertain (e.g. the one on " wei syndrome " ) finds no statement like the one Kong cites ( " The ancesttral sinews rule the binding of the bones… " ). Moreover, comparing the chapter title index of Wu's with Ni's translation, one might think they are translating totally different books. There's scant recognizable similarity. I've been working on a suspicion / hypothesis that classical Chinese (as opposed to modern, Western influenced Chinese) might often take advantage of, purposely exploit the ambiguity given by the fact that any one particular character or combination can have multiple meanings. Some might say, well I just do a literal translation. My theory is that that's virtually impossible. Classical Chinese (prior to extensive Western contact) is not a " literal " language (not built up from letters). It's a pictographic language (built of spatially grouped graphical figures). And that may inherently imply a frame of mind wherein multiple meanings can be purposely held in mind when " understanding " the text. The symbolic picture elements resonate at multiple levels. Another curious phenomenon I've noticed is that contemporary Chinese (people I know) routinely use " wrong " characters which have the same sound. E.g. in a traditionally written prescription (hand written, in columns from upper right going down, and then to the left, and usually somewhat flowery script) for a patient of mine, by a prominent master of ZhongYao, used the character Jiang as in GanJiang, i.e. ginger, but used it with Cang in specifying the herb CangJiang (the diseased silk worm carcus). Europeans/Westerns are somewhat fixated on literal correctness, as in spelling, grammar, etc. (Especially in English, where the kind of word-building and structural sentence building as is common in German is frowned upon.) This tendency may not automatically pertain to all languages. Another: In my herbal storeroom, several bags of BaiWei from different sources, are labeled (in Chinese) with at least two different characters used that both sound as " wei " . Yet another: In at least two lectures on acupuncture point functions, Jeffery Yuen has treated the characters " gu " for valley (as LI-4 hegu) and " gu " as in guqi/grainqi as at some level equivalent. I.e. his didactic point is that one can use all those points whose names contain either " gu " as a treatment, and he provides a clever example, weaving the sequence of points into a CM-logical rationale based on the point names and their functions. The very nature of language (and the thought qualities shaped by it) differs among different languages! Another datum is research I cited earlier somewhere in this forum. Namely 80% of human languages have a single word for blue and green; among them Chinese (classically). English and Germanic languages in general (English is a germanic language) have separate words, so we (Westerners) think, actually perceive that way. The research showed that distracting the right brain of Westerners while trying to differential the two colors impaired the differentiation. Conclusion: language conditions thought and perception, actually shapes the brain. So, my guess is that " Water shooting the Pure Yang " is probably an idiosyncratic translation of something we would likely recognize if worded otherwise. ---------- Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.0/610 - Release 12/30/2006 2:59 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2006 Report Share Posted December 31, 2006 Chris, I think this is the correct conclusion. But as a consequence, it is impossible to have an intelligent discussion on this without going totally off the mark with speculation. This issue of idiosyncratic translation is a great one, with a simple answer. Use reliable glossaries and dictionaries as references when using English language equivalents, so at least one can source out the pinyin and Chinese character. If one wants to use a different English term, then one can at least give a footnote or explanation in that case. Otherwise, you end up with gobbledygook, especially with classical source texts. I have at least a dozen different translations of all or part of the Ling Shu and Su Wen, and all of them are completely different, as you point out. None of them are very good or useful. You end up with such absurdities as Henry Lu's translation of gan bi/liver impediment, a specific condition involving fright during sleep, thirst, frequent urination, enlarged abdomen with ribside pain, as " liver arthralgia " . You can't have arthralgia of the liver! How can anyone understand what this means, especially without a glossary explanation or footnote? This same use of 'arthralgia' for bi, as it turns out, is also in other texts such as the New World Press translation of " Precriptions from the Golden Cabinet/Jin gui yao lue " . I finally figured out that many Chinese translators used biomedical chinese/english dictionaries rather than Chinese medical ones (which were few and far between). As it turns out, 2007 will bring the publication of a new dictionary/concordance specifically for the the Su Wen, by Paul Unschuld and Herman Tessanow, from University of California Press. I've seen some pages from it, and it should help rectify some of the confusion. Even if one doesn't approve of every term choice, at least the reader has an anchor and a historically correct dictionary to start unravelling the text from. On Dec 31, 2006, at 3:32 AM, wrote: > > So, my guess is that " Water shooting the Pure > Yang " is probably an idiosyncratic translation of > something we would likely recognize if worded otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2006 Report Share Posted December 31, 2006 Fran, While one can speculate in many potentially fascinating directions with this idea, the most likely outcome is getting lost in labyrinths of complexity without a core understanding. The obscurity of the description by your colleague cannot be taken lightly when discussing clinical matters, I'm afraid. And sad it is, because with a clear understanding of the original concept, one might find applications that could be very helpful in treating patients. On Dec 30, 2006, at 8:34 PM, mystir wrote: > Zev, I'm nowhere near your and others level with this science, > which is why I wanted to put out this line of thought, so I might > be able to learn more and have my pondering corrected. That phrase > fascinates me as it points to an interuption of the subtle > homeostasis assumed to be present in tcm physiology. > I have been unable to find a pinyin or chinese equivalent to that > diagnosis. I suspect now that maybe his phrase was not so much a > legitimate syndrome, but instead a reflection influenced by his > personal experience as an endocrinologist in china before coming to > usa, when he was working tcm in psychiatric hospitals in china, and > saw phlegm/damp pulse and tongue signs in many patients suffering > from the idiosyncratic kuang-dian manic depressive, raging and > fearful hallucinatory syndromes there. And when addressing > invisible damp/phlegm (I say invisible, because the tongue and > pulse were the only manifestations of the dampness) as a primary > pathogen herbally, saw many patients return to a more lucid state > quickly, often in a day or two. Pretty awesome when you think of > the various personal environmental, historical origins of their > affliction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2006 Report Share Posted December 31, 2006 Hi Fran, Thanks for bringing this up, I'm not sure if this has any connection to your discussion; I sat in on a Tran Viet Dzung lecture a few years ago in SF, lecturing on Nguyen Van Nghi's fundamental interpretation of the Ling Shu " Yin Channels carry Fire, Yang Channels carry Water " . In my own experience, when Baihui Du 20 is needled correctly on a sensitive individual, the sensation of water flows down the spine. Upon needling Si Shen Cong, patients have told me that they feel like rain is showering down on them. This has been consistent and corroborates with what Tran Viet Tzung told us. As bai hui (the hundred meeting point) is an access point and possibly the apex of pure yang, I thought this may be pertinent to your investigation. The following is an excerpt from their Institute VanNghi website; http://www.institutevannghi.net/pages/founding.html " Yin channels carry fire, Yang channels carry water Early on in our studies we learn the anterior surface is Yin and the posterior surface is Yang. We learn also that cold and water are Yin to their antithetical Yang complements heat and fire. Further, we learn that Yin creates Yang and Yang activates Yin. But we are then counseled by Laozi in verse 42 of the Dao De Jing: " The ten thousand things carry yin on their backs and embrace yang. " This verse, I have read, has perturbed more than one sinologist. The Zangxiang Xin (the organ-field of the heart) represents the Imperial fire of the system, the blood, the thermogenesis. The Xinbaoluo (energetic envelope of the heart) and the Sanjiao represent the ministerial fire. The distribution of this thermogenic force is first through the Xinbao and then to the consumption of it through the Sanjiao (the production of " qi " (ying, wei, jing, and jingshen) and the heating and the metabolization of the organic liquids). The ministerial fire is the deployment of the thermogenic force of the Zang Heart. In fact, all the Zang - the liver, heart, spleen, lung and kidney - have in common the blood, that which actually distributes heat throughout the body. Whether detoxifying, pumping, storing, oxygenating, producing, or filtering, it's the blood that ties them to each other. Conversely, the Fu, the bowels, all have in common the digestive system, and the migration and metabolization of the alimentary liquids or digestate through the system and is driven by thermogenesis. Thus the yin/zang organ channels carry fire and the yang/fu bowel channels carry water. The Zang (solid) store the five Jing and metabolize it into each of the secondary and tertiary forms of Jing: the anatomic Jing, the sensory Jing and the 5 jingshen. The Fu (hollow) then provide transport and continuity. Along with the full elaboration of Sanjiao energetics, and at the level of the channels and points, this has dire consequences in pathogenesis and the application of needles vs. moxa. Along the trajectory of the bladder channel, the back shu points are carrying water, and require " aeration " . The Lingshu counsels us " one should not needle the back shu points more than 5 times.. throughout the patients life! To do so may cause death. Moxibustion instead is the treatment of choice. " I just love how Chinese medicine can seemingly be turned on its head, and seemingly does so to itself. --- Without the lucid clarification of the qualitative and relativistic nature of the classical texts, these concepts are lost, or worse, abandoned. " Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 Just another point of view. Pure Yang - Qian (Heaven)= Du mai Kan (Water) = Shao Yin = Heart, Kidney No idea how shooting is applied. As to Van Nghi, yin brings fire and yang brings water, read: " The energy of Heaven moves downwards and the energy of Earth moves upwards, so that communication of energies takes place in the middle where man resides. " (Su Wen, Chapter 68) As we know sunlight moves downward as well as does rain. Yin meridians move upwards, yang downwards. You'll notice that yang meridians are used to " clear heat " (probably a term taken from herbology) and yin meridians have fire pathologies. Kelvin 1stdefense.info Chinese Medicine , " ykcul_ritsym " <ykcul_ritsym wrote: > > Hi. Can anyone explain to me what that diagnosis means, 'water > shooting the pure yang'? Is it a level of clouded thinking or dull > awareness caused by invisible phlegm? Maybe phlegm caused by emotional > stagnation, making the shen less bright or hopeful? Deficient kidney > yang and yuan chi, and/or with san jiao channel problems? > It's an interesting phrase I heard from a practitioner I admire, but > it didn't seem to be captured by the usual sign-symptom differential > diagnosis approach. Maybe a personal take on mind body disharmony? > Thanks for any feedback. Fran > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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