herbs no aid for menopause, researchers say

[Guest guest]

Dear Stephen:

What would happen is the near 100% success rate I

have in my clinic with hot flashes. I can speak

authoritatively for the past three years (all these

cases are clear in my mind at this point) and say that

I have not failed one hot flash case. Women's

experiences are a major improvement (80% and up)

occurring between a week to 4 months from initiating

treatment.

The only difficult case I have had in these past 3

years involved a lady who had only about a 50%

improvement until she gave up meat.

This is not to say that all of these improvements

come easily. Many of these people have to make

important decisions, and sometimes transformations.

Hugo

 

--- learntcm <learntcm wrote:

 

> Thesse studies always make me wonder what would

> happen if the groups

> were divided based on pattern discrimination and

> treatments applied as

> such....

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

HI Hugo

This has been my experience also. I really wonder about this study (and others

like them)

Of course, 2 big differences in my own work

1) I vary treatment based on the assorted patterns manifested

2) I use proven formulas as my guide and then modify

 

I wonder how they came up with this " formula " ...what the doses were...and how

much patient compliance there really was. I seem to remember a recent study

where the participants admitted they didn't really follow the program ( a weight

loss vs. health problems with aging)

 

The person in charge of the study is an RN and PhD... doesn't claim to be an

herbalist or an LAc... more and more questions...why does this study show so

little promise when my clinical experience shows just the opposite?

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

 

 

Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

Dear Stephen:

What would happen is the near 100% success rate I

have in my clinic with hot flashes.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve,

 

--- steve woodley <learntcm wrote:

 

> more and more questions...why does this study show

> so little promise when my clinical experience shows

> just the opposite?

 

Because the study is about a rigid protocol which

does not follow reality.

 

Hugo

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the forward,

I read the study and see the manipulation that can be had by the media

blowing up this story.

 

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/19/MNG2BN20B61.DTL & feed\

=rss.news

 

First of all, most people, reading the newspaper, only read headlines.

They have maybe 30 minutes tops to read the whole content of the morning

news,

so, they just skim...

If you read, " Herbs no aid for Menopause " as a title and skimmed through it,

looking for the source, which is the " Annals for Internal Medicine " , you may

think that this study is authoritative,

especially if it's federally funded, not funded by a pharmaceutical

company...

and the NIH was involved and there's a naturopath on the team.

Oh and it was a blinded controlled study, of course.

With a large sample size too...

 

But, how many Joe Shmoes will look at the original study and read the fine

print.

and by the way, how many studies are published every year, that extol the

benefits of herbs...

many on pubmed, but less than memory in the NY Times, LA Times etc..

 

You may just remember in the back of your mind that " herbs " don't help for

menopausal symptoms, and forget that this study was focused on just black

cohosh and a naturopathic blend, concocted by one naturopath on the study,

and that none of the participants were diagnosed via traditional

naturopathic differential diagnoses (this was listed as one of the

limitations).

 

Also, the the title... no aid for menopause, is also misleading, because the

study only showed that for this study, black cohosh, or a blend of black

cohosh with other naturopathic herbs did not show significant improvement in

relation to placebo. However, like other studies, this does not deny the

effectiveness of the herb, but proves once again the effectiveness of

placebo.

 

Placebo may be the most effective treatment and most documented in its

effectiveness in the history of medicine and published science!

 

However, how much credit does it get. It just gets dismissed and

name-called.

Is this the child in the Emperor has no Clothes?

Ted Kaptchuk wrote a poignant article about the power of the little person

named " placebo " .

 

Well, much more can be said about this.

What the study did prove is that for this particular study, black cohosh

(sheng ma) is not as effective as estrogen therapy for short term symptom

relief. Long term was not established in the study and along with that,

any side fx.

Also, it shows that diagnosis is essential in the administration of a herbal

protocol, unless you just want to do cookie cutter prescriptions of

drugs.... or herbs.

 

Chinese medicine, I believe has one leg up on the naturopaths in this

respect.

Because although naturopathy has its roots in alchemical

Egyptian-Greek-Arabic-Medieval European-American 4 elemental, 4 humour

medicine, these days, its looking alot like allopathic medicine with herbal

clothing.

I wonder if a single herb, such as Zhi mu has been studying in exactly the

same fashion as this particular study? I think it would fare alot better.

But, that's not how we work, right?

At least, they didn't correlate Chinese herbalism with this study.

Too bad that the majority of people reading the article will probably lump

OM with all other CAM and forget that this study is just one of thousands

that come out every year.

 

The good thing is that maybe folks will stop wasting their money on just

sheng ma to treat their entire constitutional picture and maybe go see a

qualified herbalist.

Too bad that wasn't written into the article.

 

 

On 12/21/06, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

>

> Hi Steve,

>

> --- steve woodley <learntcm <learntcm%40>> wrote:

>

> > more and more questions...why does this study show

> > so little promise when my clinical experience shows

> > just the opposite?

>

> Because the study is about a rigid protocol which

> does not follow reality.

>

> Hugo

>

> Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

>

>

 

 

 

--

'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the understanding of

a problem.'

 

Jiddu Krishnamurti

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On Tuesday 19 December 2006 17:26, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

 

Hi Hugo!

 

I find that the hot flash patients I have treated respond better to needles

than herbs. However, I may have used the wrong herbs and the right

acupuncture points.

 

> Dear Stephen:

> What would happen is the near 100% success rate I

> have in my clinic with hot flashes.

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

Hey Pete,

You're right, could indicate our respective abilities

with each modality, or even the type of person we tend

to attract. Apart from the hot flashes themselves (k

yin def), do you fare well with dryness s & s? Is this a

case of acu doing better with the yang aspect (hot

flashes) but not doing so well with the " yin " aspect

(long-standing dryness)? Or do your patients fare well

all-around with acu?

 

Thanks!

Hugo

 

--- Pete Theisen <petetheisen wrote:

 

> I find that the hot flash patients I have treated

> respond better to needles

> than herbs. However, I may have used the wrong herbs

> and the right

> acupuncture points.

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Hugo, Pete and Stephen

 

It is time to stop labelling menopausal transition flushes as coming from Kid

Yin Xu. I

suggest everyone read Volker Scheid's article in the Journal of

(No.82,

2006) for a reality check on menopause.

 

Wade

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor

wrote:

>

> Hey Pete,

> You're right, could indicate our respective abilities

> with each modality, or even the type of person we tend

> to attract. Apart from the hot flashes themselves (k

> yin def), do you fare well with dryness s & s? Is this a

> case of acu doing better with the yang aspect (hot

> flashes) but not doing so well with the " yin " aspect

> (long-standing dryness)? Or do your patients fare well

> all-around with acu?

>

> Thanks!

> Hugo

>

> --- Pete Theisen <petetheisen wrote:

>

> > I find that the hot flash patients I have treated

> > respond better to needles

> > than herbs. However, I may have used the wrong herbs

> > and the right

> > acupuncture points.

>

>

>

>

> _________

> Copy addresses and emails from any email account to Mail - quick, easy

and

free. http://uk.docs./trueswitch2.html

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Wade. Read the article. Nothing very new in there.

I just do pattern differentiation. Most of the hot

flahses I see have kid yin xu as a background and they

respond quickly to kidney yin xu treatment. Enough

said.

 

Thanks,

Hugo

 

--- chinawestoz <chinawest wrote:

 

> It is time to stop labelling menopausal transition

> flushes as coming from Kid Yin Xu. I

> suggest everyone read Volker Scheid's article in the

> Journal of (No.82,

> 2006) for a reality check on menopause.

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

On Tuesday 26 December 2006 22:10, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

> Hey Pete,

> You're right, could indicate our respective abilities

> with each modality, or even the type of person we tend

> to attract. Apart from the hot flashes themselves (k

> yin def), do you fare well with dryness s & s? Is this a

> case of acu doing better with the yang aspect (hot

> flashes) but not doing so well with the " yin " aspect

> (long-standing dryness)? Or do your patients fare well

> all-around with acu?

 

Hi Hugo!

 

I have one who presents with dampness, wouldn't you know?

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

HI Wade, Hugo and Pete

 

chinawestoz <chinawest wrote:

It is time to stop labelling menopausal transition flushes as coming from Kid

Yin Xu. I

suggest everyone read Volker Scheid's article in the Journal of

(No.82,

2006) for a reality check on menopause.

 

Wade

 

I've read his book, but not this article. At the risk of failing to head the

admonition of Su Wen Chapter 78, I'll say this

 

The vast majority of the women I've seen (this is my patient population and

certainly doesn't reflect all women) Kid Yin Xu with Empty Heat is usually

present and important. However, if I limit treatment to only this pattern the

results are....well, unsatisfactory. If I address the other patterns being

manifested the results can be very impressive!

 

 

Hugo Ramiro <subincorwrote:

Hey Pete,

You're right, could indicate our respective abilities with each modality, or

even the type of person we tend to attract.

 

 

Hugo, I couldn't agree more and always try to keep this in mind...what's my

patient population...and what am I more skilled at recognizing and treating...

 

Apart from the hot flashes themselves (k yin def), do you fare well with

dryness s & s?

 

Many of my patients manifest dampness and dealing with this well is

pivotal...Damp heat is also common for me.

 

 

Is this a case of acu doing better with the yang aspect (hot flashes) but not

doing so well with the " yin " aspect (long-standing dryness)? Or do your patients

fare well all-around with acu?

 

 

VERY interesting...not my experience at all....maybe I've been lucky...but

herbs have worked very well for my patients

 

 

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

HI Wade, Hugo and Pete

 

chinawestoz <chinawest wrote:

It is time to stop labelling menopausal transition flushes as coming from Kid

Yin Xu. I

suggest everyone read Volker Scheid's article in the Journal of

(No.82,

2006) for a reality check on menopause.

 

Wade

 

I've read his book, but not this article. At the risk of failing to head the

admonition of Su Wen Chapter 78, I'll say this

 

The vast majority of the women I've seen (this is my patient population and

certainly doesn't reflect all women) Kid Yin Xu with Empty Heat is usually

present and important. However, if I limit treatment to only this pattern the

results are....well, unsatisfactory. If I address the other patterns being

manifested the results can be very impressive!

 

 

Hugo Ramiro <subincorwrote:

Hey Pete,

You're right, could indicate our respective abilities with each modality, or

even the type of person we tend to attract.

 

 

Hugo, I couldn't agree more and always try to keep this in mind...what's my

patient population...and what am I more skilled at recognizing and treating...

 

Apart from the hot flashes themselves (k yin def), do you fare well with

dryness s & s?

 

Many of my patients manifest dampness and dealing with this well is

pivotal...Damp heat is also common for me.

 

 

Is this a case of acu doing better with the yang aspect (hot flashes) but not

doing so well with the " yin " aspect (long-standing dryness)? Or do your patients

fare well all-around with acu?

 

 

VERY interesting...not my experience at all....maybe I've been lucky...but

herbs have worked very well for my patients

 

 

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On Wednesday 27 December 2006 22:46, steve woodley wrote:

 

Hi Steve!

 

I use patents only, and not even these as of yesterday. I could have had a

compromise due to that.

<snip>

>

> VERY interesting...not my experience at all....maybe I've been

> lucky...but herbs have worked very well for my patients

>

>

>

> Stephen Woodley LAc

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete,

 

 

--- Pete Theisen <petetheisen wrote:

 

> I have one who presents with dampness, wouldn't you

> know?

 

haha, yeah, just show me up. But that still should be

dampness layered on dryness, no?

 

Hugo

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

On Thursday 28 December 2006 12:24, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

> Hi Pete,

>

> --- Pete Theisen <petetheisen wrote:

> > I have one who presents with dampness, wouldn't you

> > know?

>

> haha, yeah, just show me up. But that still should be

> dampness layered on dryness, no?

 

Hi Hugo!

 

I didn't see any dry signs - but she may not be typical.

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

Three of the most common herbal formulas for hot-flashes and peri/menopausal

symptoms are: zhi bai di huang wan, er xian wan and da bu yin wan.

tang/san.

Interestingly, in each of them, there is the dui-yao pairing of huang bai

and zhi mu.

Huang bai clears damp-heat from the lower jiao, so I think there may be some

validity to the dampness in the lower jiao diagnosis that comes up with

peri-menopausal women.

Also, obviously, are the Kd tonics- mainly yin, but also yang (Er xian

Tang).

 

I'm wondering how much of Li Dong Yuan's Yin Fire theory is applicable to

menopausal symptomatology.

I'll check the Pi Wei Lun later.

Thanks, K.

 

 

On 12/28/06, Pete Theisen <petetheisen wrote:

>

> On Thursday 28 December 2006 12:24, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

> > Hi Pete,

> >

> > --- Pete Theisen <petetheisen <petetheisen%40verizon.net>>

> wrote:

> > > I have one who presents with dampness, wouldn't you

> > > know?

> >

> > haha, yeah, just show me up. But that still should be

> > dampness layered on dryness, no?

>

> Hi Hugo!

>

> I didn't see any dry signs - but she may not be typical.

> --

> Regards,

>

> Pete

> http://www.pete-theisen.com/

>

>

 

 

 

--

'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the understanding of

a problem.'

 

Jiddu Krishnamurti