Guest guest Posted December 13, 2006 Report Share Posted December 13, 2006 Dear Group, Does anyone have any comments on the contents of the following statement appearing in Unschuld's translation of the Nan-Ching; Difficulty no. 30, p. 341: " Man receives his influences from the grains. The grains enter the stomach, from which they are transmitted further to the five depots and six palaces. All the five depots and six palaces are supplied with influences [by the stomach]. " Here's a couple of thoughts: The following is not meant to be a reductionist view of energetic functions/n attempt to squeeze CM theory into a Western model, I have no interest in that - au contraire. It's just something I´ve been chewing on If we hold that the Stomach is distributing Qi - in my version: Yang Qi -directly to the Zang without any particular involvement of the Spleen as suggested by the above quote from the Nan-Ching, then Qi assimilation could be regarded as quite similar or even the same as the assimilation of nutrients from the small instestine/large intestine as described by Western Medicin (WM). The assimilation of Yang Qi from the Food could thus be regarded as strictly a Fu-organ task with the Stomach in the center of things - it's correct position as Earth (Yang) and everything would fall nicely into both CM as well as WM anatomy as well: Gall Bladder providing the Gall, the Small Instestine seperating pure from impure and Large Intestine discharging waste. If we then see the Stomach as being on top of the digestive system taking charge of this particular part of Qi assimilation it could also be an alternative explanation of why the He-Sea of the Small Intestine and Large Intestine is situated on the Stomach Channel - The Stomach being in charge of rottening and ripening, The Small Instestine and Large Intestines being " subordinate " to the Stomach taking charge of separating pure from impure and eventually discharging waste products. Then why isn't there a He-Sea point for the Gall Bladder on the Stomach Channel? Maybe because the Gall Bladder is one of the " curious organs? " The above assumptoins would naturally also force us to see the Spleen's role in Qi assimilation differently - taking charge of the more Yin part of Qi assimilation, namely have more to do with the formation of Blood and bodyfluids. Thinking of Yang as animating/activating and of Yin as more form this would in turn explain why it is that the Stomach - handling Yang portion of food metabolism is more prone to heat/excess and why the Spleen - handling Yin portion of food metabolism is more prone to running cold/defecient. Ultimately the Spleen would still be in overall charge of the assimilation of both Yang and Yin Qi from food because of it's central function of transformation and transformation. Implications of the above could for instance be that the Stomach could be ascribed a signigicant role in the maintaining of a steady bodytemperature providing postnatal Yang Qi to the entire organism - if you stop eating you will become cold! As a severe example think of someone suffering from severe anorexia and as a result whose body hair start growing to protect the body against the climate The Stomach's function, being Yang, would be supported by San Jiao - the function of Kidney Yang. This again would explain why people normally loose appetite during an invasion of external pathogens - the Yang Qi of the San Jiao/Kidney Yang/MingMen is turned towards fighting the pathogen at Wei Qi level not providing Yang Qi for the St function. One could of a long list of possible disease progressions and homeokinetic functions if think of the Stomach as suggested by the Nan Ching. This is new to me so I haven't made any specific clnical observations yet - can think of a few cases that would make more sense though.... Looking forward to comments Best regards, Thomas Sorensen Acupuncturist (PA, RAB) Denmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2006 Report Share Posted December 13, 2006 An addendum to my previous post: This also serves to explain why the presence or absence of Stomach Qi in the pulse will help determine severity and prognosis of disease. Best regards, Thomas Sorensen Acupuncturist (PA, RAB) Denmark Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen skrev: > > Dear Group, > > Does anyone have any comments on the contents of the following statement > appearing in Unschuld's translation of the Nan-Ching; Difficulty no. 30, > p. 341: > > " Man receives his influences from the grains. The grains enter the > stomach, from which they are transmitted further to the five depots and > six palaces. All the five depots and six palaces are supplied with > influences [by the stomach]. " > > Here's a couple of thoughts: > > The following is not meant to be a reductionist view of energetic > functions/n attempt to squeeze CM theory into a Western model, I have no > interest in that - au contraire. It's just something I´ve been chewing > on > > If we hold that the Stomach is distributing Qi - in my version: Yang Qi > -directly to the Zang without any particular involvement of the Spleen > as suggested by the above quote from the Nan-Ching, then Qi assimilation > could be regarded as quite similar or even the same as the assimilation > of nutrients from the small instestine/large intestine as described by > Western Medicin (WM). The assimilation of Yang Qi from the Food could > thus be regarded as strictly a Fu-organ task with the Stomach in the > center of things - it's correct position as Earth (Yang) and everything > would fall nicely into both CM as well as WM anatomy as well: Gall > Bladder providing the Gall, the Small Instestine seperating pure from > impure and Large Intestine discharging waste. > > If we then see the Stomach as being on top of the digestive system > taking charge of this particular part of Qi assimilation it could also > be an alternative explanation of why the He-Sea of the Small Intestine > and Large Intestine is situated on the Stomach Channel - The Stomach > being in charge of rottening and ripening, The Small Instestine and > Large Intestines being " subordinate " to the Stomach taking charge of > separating pure from impure and eventually discharging waste products. > Then why isn't there a He-Sea point for the Gall Bladder on the Stomach > Channel? Maybe because the Gall Bladder is one of the " curious organs? " > > The above assumptoins would naturally also force us to see the Spleen's > role in Qi assimilation differently - taking charge of the more Yin part > of Qi assimilation, namely have more to do with the formation of Blood > and bodyfluids. Thinking of Yang as animating/activating and of Yin as > more form this would in turn explain why it is that the Stomach - > handling Yang portion of food metabolism is more prone to heat/excess > and why the Spleen - handling Yin portion of food metabolism is more > prone to running cold/defecient. > > Ultimately the Spleen would still be in overall charge of the > assimilation of both Yang and Yin Qi from food because of it's central > function of transformation and transformation. > > Implications of the above could for instance be that the Stomach could > be ascribed a signigicant role in the maintaining of a steady > bodytemperature providing postnatal Yang Qi to the entire organism - if > you stop eating you will become cold! As a severe example think of > someone suffering from severe anorexia and as a result whose body hair > start growing to protect the body against the climate > > The Stomach's function, being Yang, would be supported by San Jiao - the > function of Kidney Yang. This again would explain why people normally > loose appetite during an invasion of external pathogens - the Yang Qi of > the San Jiao/Kidney Yang/MingMen is turned towards fighting the pathogen > at Wei Qi level not providing Yang Qi for the St function. > > One could of a long list of possible disease progressions and > homeokinetic functions if think of the Stomach as suggested by the Nan > Ching. This is new to me so I haven't made any specific clnical > observations yet - can think of a few cases that would make more sense > though.... > > Looking forward to comments > > Best regards, > > Thomas Sorensen > Acupuncturist (PA, RAB) > Denmark > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2006 Report Share Posted December 13, 2006 The stomach and spleen recieve the food then distribute the 5 tastes to the associated organs, sour to liver/gb, etc...I believe this has dsomething to do with why there is a " great luo " of the spleen, because all organs have a connection with earth phase. Chinese Medicine , Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen <> wrote: > > Dear Group, > > Does anyone have any comments on the contents of the following statement > appearing in Unschuld's translation of the Nan-Ching; Difficulty no. 30, > p. 341: > > " Man receives his influences from the grains. The grains enter the > stomach, from which they are transmitted further to the five depots and > six palaces. All the five depots and six palaces are supplied with > influences [by the stomach]. " > > Here's a couple of thoughts: > > The following is not meant to be a reductionist view of energetic > functions/n attempt to squeeze CM theory into a Western model, I have no > interest in that - au contraire. It's just something I´ve been chewing on > > If we hold that the Stomach is distributing Qi - in my version: Yang Qi > -directly to the Zang without any particular involvement of the Spleen > as suggested by the above quote from the Nan-Ching, then Qi assimilation > could be regarded as quite similar or even the same as the assimilation > of nutrients from the small instestine/large intestine as described by > Western Medicin (WM). The assimilation of Yang Qi from the Food could > thus be regarded as strictly a Fu-organ task with the Stomach in the > center of things - it's correct position as Earth (Yang) and everything > would fall nicely into both CM as well as WM anatomy as well: Gall > Bladder providing the Gall, the Small Instestine seperating pure from > impure and Large Intestine discharging waste. > > If we then see the Stomach as being on top of the digestive system > taking charge of this particular part of Qi assimilation it could also > be an alternative explanation of why the He-Sea of the Small Intestine > and Large Intestine is situated on the Stomach Channel - The Stomach > being in charge of rottening and ripening, The Small Instestine and > Large Intestines being " subordinate " to the Stomach taking charge of > separating pure from impure and eventually discharging waste products. > Then why isn't there a He-Sea point for the Gall Bladder on the Stomach > Channel? Maybe because the Gall Bladder is one of the " curious organs? " > > The above assumptoins would naturally also force us to see the Spleen's > role in Qi assimilation differently - taking charge of the more Yin part > of Qi assimilation, namely have more to do with the formation of Blood > and bodyfluids. Thinking of Yang as animating/activating and of Yin as > more form this would in turn explain why it is that the Stomach - > handling Yang portion of food metabolism is more prone to heat/excess > and why the Spleen - handling Yin portion of food metabolism is more > prone to running cold/defecient. > > Ultimately the Spleen would still be in overall charge of the > assimilation of both Yang and Yin Qi from food because of it's central > function of transformation and transformation. > > Implications of the above could for instance be that the Stomach could > be ascribed a signigicant role in the maintaining of a steady > bodytemperature providing postnatal Yang Qi to the entire organism - if > you stop eating you will become cold! As a severe example think of > someone suffering from severe anorexia and as a result whose body hair > start growing to protect the body against the climate > > The Stomach's function, being Yang, would be supported by San Jiao - the > function of Kidney Yang. This again would explain why people normally > loose appetite during an invasion of external pathogens - the Yang Qi of > the San Jiao/Kidney Yang/MingMen is turned towards fighting the pathogen > at Wei Qi level not providing Yang Qi for the St function. > > One could of a long list of possible disease progressions and > homeokinetic functions if think of the Stomach as suggested by the Nan > Ching. This is new to me so I haven't made any specific clnical > observations yet - can think of a few cases that would make more sense > though.... > > Looking forward to comments > > Best regards, > > Thomas Sorensen > Acupuncturist (PA, RAB) > Denmark > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2006 Report Share Posted December 13, 2006 Dear Charlie, Is there anyway he can wipe his slate clean? Regards Arhur Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen <> wrote: Dear Group, Does anyone have any comments on the contents of the following statement appearing in Unschuld's translation of the Nan-Ching; Difficulty no. 30, p. 341: " Man receives his influences from the grains. The grains enter the stomach, from which they are transmitted further to the five depots and six palaces. All the five depots and six palaces are supplied with influences [by the stomach]. " Here's a couple of thoughts: The following is not meant to be a reductionist view of energetic functions/n attempt to squeeze CM theory into a Western model, I have no interest in that - au contraire. It's just something I´ve been chewing on If we hold that the Stomach is distributing Qi - in my version: Yang Qi -directly to the Zang without any particular involvement of the Spleen as suggested by the above quote from the Nan-Ching, then Qi assimilation could be regarded as quite similar or even the same as the assimilation of nutrients from the small instestine/large intestine as described by Western Medicin (WM). The assimilation of Yang Qi from the Food could thus be regarded as strictly a Fu-organ task with the Stomach in the center of things - it's correct position as Earth (Yang) and everything would fall nicely into both CM as well as WM anatomy as well: Gall Bladder providing the Gall, the Small Instestine seperating pure from impure and Large Intestine discharging waste. If we then see the Stomach as being on top of the digestive system taking charge of this particular part of Qi assimilation it could also be an alternative explanation of why the He-Sea of the Small Intestine and Large Intestine is situated on the Stomach Channel - The Stomach being in charge of rottening and ripening, The Small Instestine and Large Intestines being " subordinate " to the Stomach taking charge of separating pure from impure and eventually discharging waste products. Then why isn't there a He-Sea point for the Gall Bladder on the Stomach Channel? Maybe because the Gall Bladder is one of the " curious organs? " The above assumptoins would naturally also force us to see the Spleen's role in Qi assimilation differently - taking charge of the more Yin part of Qi assimilation, namely have more to do with the formation of Blood and bodyfluids. Thinking of Yang as animating/activating and of Yin as more form this would in turn explain why it is that the Stomach - handling Yang portion of food metabolism is more prone to heat/excess and why the Spleen - handling Yin portion of food metabolism is more prone to running cold/defecient. Ultimately the Spleen would still be in overall charge of the assimilation of both Yang and Yin Qi from food because of it's central function of transformation and transformation. Implications of the above could for instance be that the Stomach could be ascribed a signigicant role in the maintaining of a steady bodytemperature providing postnatal Yang Qi to the entire organism - if you stop eating you will become cold! As a severe example think of someone suffering from severe anorexia and as a result whose body hair start growing to protect the body against the climate The Stomach's function, being Yang, would be supported by San Jiao - the function of Kidney Yang. This again would explain why people normally loose appetite during an invasion of external pathogens - the Yang Qi of the San Jiao/Kidney Yang/MingMen is turned towards fighting the pathogen at Wei Qi level not providing Yang Qi for the St function. One could of a long list of possible disease progressions and homeokinetic functions if think of the Stomach as suggested by the Nan Ching. This is new to me so I haven't made any specific clnical observations yet - can think of a few cases that would make more sense though.... Looking forward to comments Best regards, Thomas Sorensen Acupuncturist (PA, RAB) Denmark All New Mail – Tired of Vi@gr@! come-ons? Let our SpamGuard protect you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2006 Report Share Posted December 13, 2006 The Nan Jing definitely confirms this. In Difficulties fifteen and sixteen, a 'visceral pulse', or a pulse with exaggerated qualities of the five viscera (wiry for liver, hair- like for lung, stone-like for kidney, hook-like for heart), is one without the smooth, moderating supple qualities of stomach qi. This is the ying qi/constructive qi in the vessels. On Dec 13, 2006, at 3:53 AM, Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen wrote: > An addendum to my previous post: > This also serves to explain why the presence or absence of Stomach > Qi in > the pulse will help determine severity and prognosis of disease. > > Best regards, > > Thomas Sorensen > Acupuncturist (PA, RAB) > Denmark > > Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen skrev: > > > > Dear Group, > > > > Does anyone have any comments on the contents of the following > statement > > appearing in Unschuld's translation of the Nan-Ching; Difficulty > no. 30, > > p. 341: > > > > " Man receives his influences from the grains. The grains enter the > > stomach, from which they are transmitted further to the five > depots and > > six palaces. All the five depots and six palaces are supplied with > > influences [by the stomach]. " > > > > Here's a couple of thoughts: > > > > The following is not meant to be a reductionist view of energetic > > functions/n attempt to squeeze CM theory into a Western model, I > have no > > interest in that - au contraire. It's just something I´ve been > chewing > > on > > > > If we hold that the Stomach is distributing Qi - in my version: > Yang Qi > > -directly to the Zang without any particular involvement of the > Spleen > > as suggested by the above quote from the Nan-Ching, then Qi > assimilation > > could be regarded as quite similar or even the same as the > assimilation > > of nutrients from the small instestine/large intestine as > described by > > Western Medicin (WM). The assimilation of Yang Qi from the Food > could > > thus be regarded as strictly a Fu-organ task with the Stomach in the > > center of things - it's correct position as Earth (Yang) and > everything > > would fall nicely into both CM as well as WM anatomy as well: Gall > > Bladder providing the Gall, the Small Instestine seperating pure > from > > impure and Large Intestine discharging waste. > > > > If we then see the Stomach as being on top of the digestive system > > taking charge of this particular part of Qi assimilation it could > also > > be an alternative explanation of why the He-Sea of the Small > Intestine > > and Large Intestine is situated on the Stomach Channel - The Stomach > > being in charge of rottening and ripening, The Small Instestine and > > Large Intestines being " subordinate " to the Stomach taking charge of > > separating pure from impure and eventually discharging waste > products. > > Then why isn't there a He-Sea point for the Gall Bladder on the > Stomach > > Channel? Maybe because the Gall Bladder is one of the " curious > organs? " > > > > The above assumptoins would naturally also force us to see the > Spleen's > > role in Qi assimilation differently - taking charge of the more > Yin part > > of Qi assimilation, namely have more to do with the formation of > Blood > > and bodyfluids. Thinking of Yang as animating/activating and of > Yin as > > more form this would in turn explain why it is that the Stomach - > > handling Yang portion of food metabolism is more prone to heat/ > excess > > and why the Spleen - handling Yin portion of food metabolism is more > > prone to running cold/defecient. > > > > Ultimately the Spleen would still be in overall charge of the > > assimilation of both Yang and Yin Qi from food because of it's > central > > function of transformation and transformation. > > > > Implications of the above could for instance be that the Stomach > could > > be ascribed a signigicant role in the maintaining of a steady > > bodytemperature providing postnatal Yang Qi to the entire > organism - if > > you stop eating you will become cold! As a severe example think of > > someone suffering from severe anorexia and as a result whose body > hair > > start growing to protect the body against the climate > > > > The Stomach's function, being Yang, would be supported by San > Jiao - the > > function of Kidney Yang. This again would explain why people > normally > > loose appetite during an invasion of external pathogens - the > Yang Qi of > > the San Jiao/Kidney Yang/MingMen is turned towards fighting the > pathogen > > at Wei Qi level not providing Yang Qi for the St function. > > > > One could of a long list of possible disease progressions and > > homeokinetic functions if think of the Stomach as suggested by > the Nan > > Ching. This is new to me so I haven't made any specific clnical > > observations yet - can think of a few cases that would make more > sense > > though.... > > > > Looking forward to comments > > > > Best regards, > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > Acupuncturist (PA, RAB) > > Denmark > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2006 Report Share Posted December 13, 2006 Thomas, I'd like to comment. However, the way sets up these e- mails, I cannot paste text in between paragraphs, which is unfortunate. So I must comment to your entire e-mail above, rather than alongside your paragraphs. I agree about the relationship of large and small intestines and gall bladder with the stomach. Brilliant observation about the he- sea points of the SI and LI on the stomach channel. I'd add that the famous GB hole, yang ling guan/GB 34, is very close to zu san li/ST 36 as well, although not on the same channel. I am not so sure that I agree with the association of stomach with yang solids and spleen with yin fluids, it seems a bit arbitrary. While the stomach is directly involved with the digestate, the dynamo/engine is a combination of the spleen's yun hua/ transformation and transportation with ming men fire. I see the spleen as having a more 'global' function in metabolism, the stomach a more 'local' functioning. And, the spleen and stomach are entirely complimentary when healthy. I am going to pore through some of the material in the Pi wei lun/ Treatise on the Spleen and Stomach by Li Dong-yuan, to see if there are some quotes that would be relevant to this discussion. . .Dr. Li's theories are my other great inspiration/influence, along with the Nan Jing. Nice to see this kind of discussion on the TCM list again. On Dec 13, 2006, at 1:52 AM, Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen wrote: > Dear Group, > > > If we hold that the Stomach is distributing Qi - in my version: > Yang Qi > -directly to the Zang without any particular involvement of the Spleen > as suggested by the above quote from the Nan-Ching, then Qi > assimilation > could be regarded as quite similar or even the same as the > assimilation > of nutrients from the small instestine/large intestine as described by > Western Medicin (WM). The assimilation of Yang Qi from the Food could > thus be regarded as strictly a Fu-organ task with the Stomach in the > center of things - it's correct position as Earth (Yang) and > everything > would fall nicely into both CM as well as WM anatomy as well: Gall > Bladder providing the Gall, the Small Instestine seperating pure from > impure and Large Intestine discharging waste. > > If we then see the Stomach as being on top of the digestive system > taking charge of this particular part of Qi assimilation it could also > be an alternative explanation of why the He-Sea of the Small Intestine > and Large Intestine is situated on the Stomach Channel - The Stomach > being in charge of rottening and ripening, The Small Instestine and > Large Intestines being " subordinate " to the Stomach taking charge of > separating pure from impure and eventually discharging waste products. > Then why isn't there a He-Sea point for the Gall Bladder on the > Stomach > Channel? Maybe because the Gall Bladder is one of the " curious > organs? " > > The above assumptoins would naturally also force us to see the > Spleen's > role in Qi assimilation differently - taking charge of the more Yin > part > of Qi assimilation, namely have more to do with the formation of Blood > and bodyfluids. Thinking of Yang as animating/activating and of Yin as > more form this would in turn explain why it is that the Stomach - > handling Yang portion of food metabolism is more prone to heat/excess > and why the Spleen - handling Yin portion of food metabolism is more > prone to running cold/defecient. > > Ultimately the Spleen would still be in overall charge of the > assimilation of both Yang and Yin Qi from food because of it's central > function of transformation and transformation. > > Implications of the above could for instance be that the Stomach could > be ascribed a signigicant role in the maintaining of a steady > bodytemperature providing postnatal Yang Qi to the entire organism > - if > you stop eating you will become cold! As a severe example think of > someone suffering from severe anorexia and as a result whose body hair > start growing to protect the body against the climate > > The Stomach's function, being Yang, would be supported by San Jiao > - the > function of Kidney Yang. This again would explain why people normally > loose appetite during an invasion of external pathogens - the Yang > Qi of > the San Jiao/Kidney Yang/MingMen is turned towards fighting the > pathogen > at Wei Qi level not providing Yang Qi for the St function. > > One could of a long list of possible disease progressions and > homeokinetic functions if think of the Stomach as suggested by the Nan > Ching. This is new to me so I haven't made any specific clnical > observations yet - can think of a few cases that would make more sense > though.... > > Looking forward to comments > > Best regards, > > Thomas Sorensen > Acupuncturist (PA, RAB) > Denmark > > > > Messages in this topic (29)Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic > Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Calendar > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > Medicine Timeshttp://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,http:// > toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > http:// > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > absolutely necessary. > > Change settings via the Web ( ID required) > Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch > format to Traditional > Visit Your Group | Terms of Use | Un > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2006 Report Share Posted December 14, 2006 Mr. Rosenberg, I didn't think about GB34 when I wrote my post, but as you point out it's location in the proximity of ST36 could most likely be said to reflect the energetic relationship of the GB to the rest of the digestive system in generel and the ST in particular. R: " I am not so sure that I agree with the association of stomach >with yang solids and spleen with yin fluids, it seems a bit >arbitrary. While the stomach is directly involved with the >digestate, the dynamo/engine is a combination of the spleen's yun hua/ >transformation and transportation with ming men fire. I see the >spleen as having a more 'global' function in metabolism, the stomach >a more 'local' functioning. And, the spleen and stomach are entirely >complimentary when healthy. " I am not indisagreement, as I wrote in my first post: > Ultimately the Spleen would still be in overall charge of the > assimilation of both Yang and Yin Qi from food because of it's central > function of transformation and transformation. However I am having a bit of trouble wrapping my brain around the statements in Nan-Ching chapter 30 as of my first post and in chapters 15/16, as you are referring to in regards to the presence of Stomach Qi in the pulse as sign of health. The statements are pretty straightforward: The ST distributes the Qi to the Zang Fu and the healthy pulse must exhibit the St pulse quality - however a great deal of questions arise: How does the ST distribute the Qi to the Zang Fu in case it really does have this function as claimed by the author of Nan-Ching - is it through the usual route of Qi assimilation/distribution/metabolism with the Spleen's Yun Hua as absolute primus motor, which I do not find any indications of, or could it be that it is a more direct function of the ST involving the SJ through the Gao, Huang, Gao Huang, the Cou anf the Li structures directly. Could it be that the author of the Nan-Ching had a specific manifestation of Qi distributed by the ST alone in mind? Is it the activating and warming properties of Qi the St (it was this particular manifestation of Yang Qi I had in mind when I wrote my first post - should have clarified!!). The could serve explain why St36 and SJ4 in combination are excellent point for moxa treatment in any Qi/Yang deficiency patterns as well as in preventative treatment. It is really interesting what the Nan-Ching has to say in regards to the ST Qi as the moderator of the pulse which implies that ST Qi moderates the entire Qi mechanism in some way or other. An ability that could be conveyed through the SJ as complementing the distribution af Yüan Qi? Far out? The Mai Jing - Book Three, Chapter Three does attribute the moderating function of the pulse/Qi mechanism more to the Spleen so there's something here that could be conceived as a break with Nan-Ching theory. Any thoughts? I am not attempting in any way to reduce the role of the SP - I certainly do not have enough knowledge and have not spent even nearly enough time studying the classics to attempt something that bold. I am simply trying to figure out what the ST's specific role might be in regards to that which was theorized by the Nan-Ching author. I am aware that not many share his point of view in this particular case which might simply be because this theory simply does not hold water. I hope that this post is coherent! Best regards, Thomas Sorensen Acupuncturist (PA, RAB) Denamrk skrev: > > Thomas, > I'd like to comment. However, the way sets up these e- > mails, I cannot paste text in between paragraphs, which is > unfortunate. So I must comment to your entire e-mail above, rather > than alongside your paragraphs. > > I agree about the relationship of large and small intestines and > gall bladder with the stomach. Brilliant observation about the he- > sea points of the SI and LI on the stomach channel. I'd add that the > famous GB hole, yang ling guan/GB 34, is very close to zu san li/ST > 36 as well, although not on the same channel. > > I am not so sure that I agree with the association of stomach > with yang solids and spleen with yin fluids, it seems a bit > arbitrary. While the stomach is directly involved with the > digestate, the dynamo/engine is a combination of the spleen's yun hua/ > transformation and transportation with ming men fire. I see the > spleen as having a more 'global' function in metabolism, the stomach > a more 'local' functioning. And, the spleen and stomach are entirely > complimentary when healthy. > > I am going to pore through some of the material in the Pi wei lun/ > Treatise on the Spleen and Stomach by Li Dong-yuan, to see if there > are some quotes that would be relevant to this discussion. . .Dr. > Li's theories are my other great inspiration/influence, along with > the Nan Jing. > > Nice to see this kind of discussion on the TCM list again. > > > On Dec 13, 2006, at 1:52 AM, Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen wrote: > > > Dear Group, > > > > > > If we hold that the Stomach is distributing Qi - in my version: > > Yang Qi > > -directly to the Zang without any particular involvement of the Spleen > > as suggested by the above quote from the Nan-Ching, then Qi > > assimilation > > could be regarded as quite similar or even the same as the > > assimilation > > of nutrients from the small instestine/large intestine as described by > > Western Medicin (WM). The assimilation of Yang Qi from the Food could > > thus be regarded as strictly a Fu-organ task with the Stomach in the > > center of things - it's correct position as Earth (Yang) and > > everything > > would fall nicely into both CM as well as WM anatomy as well: Gall > > Bladder providing the Gall, the Small Instestine seperating pure from > > impure and Large Intestine discharging waste. > > > > > If we then see the Stomach as being on top of the digestive system > > taking charge of this particular part of Qi assimilation it could also > > be an alternative explanation of why the He-Sea of the Small Intestine > > and Large Intestine is situated on the Stomach Channel - The Stomach > > being in charge of rottening and ripening, The Small Instestine and > > Large Intestines being " subordinate " to the Stomach taking charge of > > separating pure from impure and eventually discharging waste products. > > Then why isn't there a He-Sea point for the Gall Bladder on the > > Stomach > > Channel? Maybe because the Gall Bladder is one of the " curious > > organs? " > > > > The above assumptoins would naturally also force us to see the > > Spleen's > > role in Qi assimilation differently - taking charge of the more Yin > > part > > of Qi assimilation, namely have more to do with the formation of Blood > > and bodyfluids. Thinking of Yang as animating/activating and of Yin as > > more form this would in turn explain why it is that the Stomach - > > handling Yang portion of food metabolism is more prone to heat/excess > > and why the Spleen - handling Yin portion of food metabolism is more > > prone to running cold/defecient. > > > > Ultimately the Spleen would still be in overall charge of the > > assimilation of both Yang and Yin Qi from food because of it's central > > function of transformation and transformation. > > > > Implications of the above could for instance be that the Stomach could > > be ascribed a signigicant role in the maintaining of a steady > > bodytemperature providing postnatal Yang Qi to the entire organism > > - if > > you stop eating you will become cold! As a severe example think of > > someone suffering from severe anorexia and as a result whose body hair > > start growing to protect the body against the climate > > > > The Stomach's function, being Yang, would be supported by San Jiao > > - the > > function of Kidney Yang. This again would explain why people normally > > loose appetite during an invasion of external pathogens - the Yang > > Qi of > > the San Jiao/Kidney Yang/MingMen is turned towards fighting the > > pathogen > > at Wei Qi level not providing Yang Qi for the St function. > > > > One could of a long list of possible disease progressions and > > homeokinetic functions if think of the Stomach as suggested by the Nan > > Ching. This is new to me so I haven't made any specific clnical > > observations yet - can think of a few cases that would make more sense > > though.... > > > > Looking forward to comments > > > > Best regards, > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > Acupuncturist (PA, RAB) > > Denmark > > > > > > > > Messages in this topic (29)Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic > > Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Calendar > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > > Medicine Timeshttp://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > <Timeshttp://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com> > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,http:// > > toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > http:// > > and adjust > > accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. 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Guest guest Posted December 15, 2006 Report Share Posted December 15, 2006 Hi Thomas and all...I hesitate to involve myself in this discussion because my knowledge and understanding are so limited and I therefore have difficulty following most of this...but a couple of things kept popping up in my mind. The first is a very general comment on the structure of Chinese classics and on the the structure of the Chinese language. A: The classics are not written in the style of a modern analytical textbook. They are more like rambling tales and conversations. This makes them difficult to study (for a westerner) because in order to find something (or even understand it), you can't simply look it up in the index, or go to the conveniently labelled chapter sub-sub-heading. Rather you need to essentially have memorised the thing and understand it organically. In this case, you would think of an issue, and through the " organic " memory of the work, many applicable passages would come to mind, as well as their relationships. It's like pattern diagnosis. And just like pattern diagnosis, we might need to be wary of " magic bullet " thinking where we penetrate to the one and only line that matters in the book. B: The Chinese language is based on contextual associations (sheesh listen to me). That might be one way to describe it. This means, simply, that we don't know the meaning of something until we have its context _first_. This can be very much a snake eating its tail sort of thing. So, in " fact " , to really get the written words of the classics, you have to get the book _first_. Until you " get " the book, it will be a struggle to make sense of the words. The book has a " point " - get the point and most passages will make a lot more sense. If anyone new to the chinese language is interested in visiting the url below, it can help demonstrate how the same character with the same pronounciation can vary in meaning not only by the tone used, but by it's combination with other characters. http://tinyurl.com/ye37bx Of course, I am being very one-sided here. I am only trying to illuminate my one point. Furthermore, the only thought I had on the Pi-Wei relationship is that the stomach qi is noted for its ability to prognose because it is the manifestation of functional activity (Yang). Don't know if I just made things worse... Hugo --- Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen <> wrote: > simply trying to figure out what the ST's specific > role might be in > regards to that which was theorized by the Nan-Ching > author. I am aware > that not many share his point of view in this > particular case which > might simply be because this theory simply does not > hold water. _________ All new Mail " The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use. " - PC Magazine http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2006 Report Share Posted December 15, 2006 This is a great conversation. If I may pose a few questions... So, with the lower he-se points of the digestive channels, it is interesting that the ST 36, ST 37, and ST 39 points all lie on the ST channel. The Stomach (earth of earth) point is the centerpiece, with the LI and SI following. Does this connnect the logic that the Stomach channel holds the qi and is the gateway or the conduit for the rest of the yang fu-bowels? As far as the San jiao qi, the lower he sea point for the SJ is UB 39, next to UB 40, the lower he sea point for the UB. As the UB is the fu for the KD, is it also fair to associate the San jiao more with the UB/KD since the lower he-sea point of the SJ lies on the UB channel, and not the ST channel? The Sanjiao is the conduit for water and yuan qi and lies on the foot tai-yang water channel. Finally, the anatomical position of the ST channel on the anterior side of the body, along with the yin channels, must have some meaning in connection to qi and blood. The yang ming channel holds the most qi and blood. Since the Stomach / SP is the hub or axis of the post-natal qi, it must have an essential interaction with the production of yin substances. The Stomach may be the ambassador between yin and yang. Thanks, K. On 12/15/06, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi Thomas and all...I hesitate to involve myself in > this discussion because my knowledge and understanding > are so limited and I therefore have difficulty > following most of this...but a couple of things kept > popping up in my mind. > The first is a very general comment on the structure > of Chinese classics and on the the structure of the > Chinese language. > > A: The classics are not written in the style of a > modern analytical textbook. They are more like > rambling tales and conversations. This makes them > difficult to study (for a westerner) because in order > to find something (or even understand it), you can't > simply look it up in the index, or go to the > conveniently labelled chapter sub-sub-heading. Rather > you need to essentially have memorised the thing and > understand it organically. In this case, you would > think of an issue, and through the " organic " memory of > the work, many applicable passages would come to mind, > as well as their relationships. It's like pattern > diagnosis. And just like pattern diagnosis, we might > need to be wary of " magic bullet " thinking where we > penetrate to the one and only line that matters in the > book. > B: The Chinese language is based on contextual > associations (sheesh listen to me). That might be one > way to describe it. This means, simply, that we don't > know the meaning of something until we have its > context _first_. This can be very much a snake eating > its tail sort of thing. So, in " fact " , to really get > the written words of the classics, you have to get the > book _first_. Until you " get " the book, it will be a > struggle to make sense of the words. The book has a > " point " - get the point and most passages will make a > lot more sense. > > If anyone new to the chinese language is interested in > visiting the url below, it can help demonstrate how > the same character with the same pronounciation can > vary in meaning not only by the tone used, but by it's > combination with other characters. > http://tinyurl.com/ye37bx > > Of course, I am being very one-sided here. I am only > trying to illuminate my one point. > > Furthermore, the only thought I had on the Pi-Wei > relationship is that the stomach qi is noted for its > ability to prognose because it is the manifestation of > functional activity (Yang). > > Don't know if I just made things worse... > Hugo > > --- Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen > < <thomas%40orientalskmedicin.dk>> wrote: > > > simply trying to figure out what the ST's specific > > role might be in > > regards to that which was theorized by the Nan-Ching > > author. I am aware > > that not many share his point of view in this > > particular case which > > might simply be because this theory simply does not > > hold water. > > > > > ________ > All new Mail " The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and > ease of use. " - PC Magazine > http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html > > -- 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the understanding of a problem.' Jiddu Krishnamurti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2006 Report Share Posted December 15, 2006 Thomas, I've been thinking a lot about this particular " difficult issue " , and I must say I don't have a definitive answer at this point. It is entirely possible, in my readings, that the Nan Jing does not clearly distinguish stomach and spleen qi function in this manner, and that they are interchangeable to some degree as a result. The section in the Mai Jing seems more comprehensive on the relationship of spleen and stomach, but classical texts are known (like the Nan Jing) to leave some 'loose ends' at times. . I've also noted Xu Da-cun (Hsu Ta-ch'un)'s commentary on pg. 344 of Unschuld's Nan Jing. He says the following: " following the sentence 'the grains enter the stomach' are the words 'which transmits them to the lung'. In the Nan Jing these words are omitted. How could the stomach introduce (anything) directly into the five depots and six palaces? This amounts to a distortion of the pattern of transmission of influences (qi) through the depots and palaces. " On Dec 14, 2006, at 12:50 AM, Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen wrote: > However I am having a bit of trouble wrapping my brain around the > statements in Nan-Ching chapter 30 as of my first post and in chapters > 15/16, as you are referring to in regards to the presence of > Stomach Qi > in the pulse as sign of health. > > The statements are pretty straightforward: The ST distributes the > Qi to > the Zang Fu and the healthy pulse must exhibit the St pulse quality - > however a great deal of questions arise: > > How does the ST distribute the Qi to the Zang Fu in case it really > does > have this function as claimed by the author of Nan-Ching - is it > through > the usual route of Qi assimilation/distribution/metabolism with the > Spleen's Yun Hua as absolute primus motor, which I do not find any > indications of, or could it be that it is a more direct function of > the > ST involving the SJ through the Gao, Huang, Gao Huang, the Cou anf the > Li structures directly. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 On Wednesday 13 December 2006 13:27, Arthur Hing wrote: > Dear Charlie, > > Is there anyway he can wipe his slate clean? Hi Arthur! I am often asked this. I usually prescribe a patent to harmonize the liver, the name escapes me at the moment - senility. I have this all written down on cheat sheets at the office, but I am home now. An Shui Wan? Maybe. Patients who take this are almost always pleased with the results. -- Regards, Pete http://www.pete-theisen.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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