pain, life and death

[Guest guest]

Yehuda,

 

What I question is why,in a terminally diagnosed patient,are they are

worried about edema of the feet which is a branch tx, when time would

be better spent treating Shen to help with his suffering.

In many traditional medicines terminal patients are a category of

their own, so at some point I believe we can stop treating the

disease, and focus on relieving the persons suffering. After the

supervising doctor leaves me with the patient thats what I do. I dont

think this is giving up.

This life " and " death situation is a deep contemplation and a

heart-opening experience for me.

 

Skip

 

ps The pulses and breathing do improve,and hes conscious, so I do feel

that beyond my intention I am in fact, doing something significant...

 

Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman

< wrote:

> My strategy was to drain and dispel the fluid accumulation, unblock

the bowels, move the qi and blood, and support the liver and kidneys.

I don't think we have any right to give up on a patient, no matter

how bad they appear. The fact that after the treatment, her

appearance and pulses changed dramatically to the better, was proof

enough to me that without the

> " best-intentioned " heroic intervention to try and ease her pain,

she could have lived and improved, with G-d's help. Doh't let your

treatment ever become mechanical. Keep trying with all you've got.

>

> Much success,

>

> Yehuda

>

> skip8080 <skip8080 wrote:

> I had a similar encounter today interning in Xiamen, China.

>

> I was introduced to a patient being treated " water swelling of the

> feet, moving upward " . I looked at his tongue and its was thin, crimson

> red,with a black and orange burnt dry coating, like I have never seen.

> Later I asked the attending doctor about his condition. He has cancer

> and is expected to die within a few days.

> I'll be treating him until then. I'm really contemplating how I can

> best be of service to this person.

>

> Skip

>

> -

[Guest guest]

Dear Skip,

 

I would disagree with the assumption that a terminally ill patient is beyond

hope of recovering. But let me give two qualifications to that Polyannish

statement. First of all, I feel that my perspective and " spirit " are felt by the

patient. I feel that a patient is very aware of their physician's commitment,

and when a physician gives up, I think that it makes it harder for a patient to

continue persevering and not giving up as well, even a patient in a coma. Don't

underestimate that we all have multiple levels of consciousness which have to be

honored. Second, as an orthodox Jew, I am governed by Jewish law which states

explicitly, " Even is a sharp sword is hanging over one's head, it is forbidden

to give up. "

 

By the same token I absolutely agree that in a critical situation, we have an

obligation to do everything in our power to comfort the patient, as long as we

remember to " first do no harm " . We must realize that analgesia can be a devils

bargain as well, as witnessed by the article on methadone that I posted earlier,

and can damage heart, kidney and liver tissue causing irreparable damage or

death. People are not machines whose engines wear out, and they die. (Yes

bodies do wear out, but I contend that the dynamic of morbidity and death is far

more complex and sophisticated than the mechanical model). When the physician

accepts that mechanical paradigm, they affirm their self-fulfilling prophecies.

Listen, I am not telling you or anyone else what to think, I am only stating my

belief so as to explain why I do what I do and why I do it. Even if it means

making the difference in one person out of 10,000, I think it's worth it. Even

if a patient lives a little bit longer

or has a little less pain, it's worth it. But let the patient decide, not me.

Giving up or classifying a patient as a " special class " of terminal patients is

not far removed from passive euthanasia, in my opinion. The key is to not

assume, not to have an agenda, but instead to listen to the intelligence of the

patient--what the signs and symptoms are saying, what the differential

diagnosis is saying, and what that inner voices which guide us as well as the

patient, are saying.

 

respectfully,

 

Yehuda

 

skip8080 <skip8080 wrote:

Yehuda,

 

What I question is why,in a terminally diagnosed patient,are they are

worried about edema of the feet which is a branch tx, when time would

be better spent treating Shen to help with his suffering.

In many traditional medicines terminal patients are a category of

their own, so at some point I believe we can stop treating the

disease, and focus on relieving the persons suffering. After the

supervising doctor leaves me with the patient thats what I do. I dont

think this is giving up.

This life " and " death situation is a deep contemplation and a

heart-opening experience for me.

 

Skip

 

ps The pulses and breathing do improve,and hes conscious, so I do feel

that beyond my intention I am in fact, doing something significant...

 

Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman

< wrote:

> My strategy was to drain and dispel the fluid accumulation, unblock

the bowels, move the qi and blood, and support the liver and kidneys.

I don't think we have any right to give up on a patient, no matter

how bad they appear. The fact that after the treatment, her

appearance and pulses changed dramatically to the better, was proof

enough to me that without the

> " best-intentioned " heroic intervention to try and ease her pain,

she could have lived and improved, with G-d's help. Doh't let your

treatment ever become mechanical. Keep trying with all you've got.

>

> Much success,

>

> Yehuda

>

> skip8080 <skip8080 wrote:

> I had a similar encounter today interning in Xiamen, China.

>

> I was introduced to a patient being treated " water swelling of the

> feet, moving upward " . I looked at his tongue and its was thin, crimson

> red,with a black and orange burnt dry coating, like I have never seen.

> Later I asked the attending doctor about his condition. He has cancer

> and is expected to die within a few days.

> I'll be treating him until then. I'm really contemplating how I can

> best be of service to this person.

>

> Skip

>

> -

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/

 

 

 

Everyone is raving about the all-new Mail beta.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Skip,

 

I've worked with people through the dying process and have found

that, no matter how close to death they are, they are still embodied

and their bodies still suffer. To ignore that and focus on " spirit "

is to ignore the complete fusion of spirit and form. So many times

as I have worked with dying patients, the simplest " symptomatic "

relief means soooo much to them - to be able to pee, to move the

bowel, to have a bit of food because the nausea is less, to have

relief of pain (and edema can be painful). To help with these issues

helps someone feel that they are still human and have not left yet

for the spirit realm. In addition, most of the problems I have seen

with patients having difficult passage is due to physical suffering

that demands all their focus. This leaves them unable to say good-

by, resolve emotional issues, prepare for leaving, connect with those

around them. When we help remove the physical suffering, this is

helping their spirit.

 

I recall one case in which a dying patient did have edema in the

lower body. Her legs and back hurt so much that all she could do was

groan. Her husband was beside himself with despair. I came in and

bled some spider veins on her sacrum. This helped her calm down and

sleep. She was then able, when she awoke to connect with her husband

in a clear way before she died.

 

 

I wonder sometimes about the new mind/body split. We are all aware

that the allopathic model seems to have taken the spirit out of the

body. But should we then take the body out of the spirit? I wonder

if, in reaction to western style medicine, we go to the other extreme

of denying the body in favor of the spirit and make the exact same

split. It seems to me that this is what you have done in your response.

 

So, do we give up hope for our patients who have a terminal

diagnosis. I don't believe we have to think about it that way. No

matter what stage someone is in, there are ways to help. Sometimes

when we help in an accurate and timely way, we turn the tide on a

seemingly terminal illness. Other times we don't, but we still

help. Our intention remains the same - just to help - not to save.

 

Sharon

 

 

Sharon Weizenbaum

86 Henry Street

Amherst, MA 01002

413-549-4021

sweiz

www.whitepinehealingarts.com

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks Sharon and Yehuda,

 

for your insightful perspectives.

 

Sharon, sorry I wasn't clear. I am of course treating the edema ,his

physical symptoms,as ordered. All this means is that I am adding

points to relieve pain and calm the spirit in addition to the local

point prescription for edema. I just wonder why thats not part of the

protocol here.

Furthermore,I learned that in CM there is no mind/body split, so I

when I say treat Shen, I am intending that this will help to alleviate

physical suffering, and it does. I also understand from the Neijing;

" treat the spirit first " and

" when the Shen is serene all pain is negligible " .

So in no way am I ignoring the persons physical suffering to to

contemplate some " spiritualized " new-age concept of Shen. Thats not CM.

 

I also understand what you are saying Yehuda, about my intention;

" yi " . I would like to believe that he is going to live,and in fact, I

sometimes wish I that I had not been told that he is terminal. Am I

wrong to consider the doctors prognosis? I think not, and yet it's an

difficult place for me to be psychically, if you will. As if he can

read my mind, and I'm supposed to " keep the faith " in his complete

recovery. Death is part of Life,its the balance of Yin and Yang.

So I remain positive that in the present moment, I can Help.

 

Take care,

Skip

 

 

I wonder

> if, in reaction to western style medicine, we go to the other extreme

> of denying the body in favor of the spirit and make the exact same

> split. It seems to me that this is what you have done in your response.

>

> So, do we give up hope for our patients who have a terminal

> diagnosis. I don't believe we have to think about it that way. No

> matter what stage someone is in, there are ways to help. Sometimes

> when we help in an accurate and timely way, we turn the tide on a

> seemingly terminal illness. Other times we don't, but we still

> help. Our intention remains the same - just to help - not to save.

>

> Sharon

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Skip, do you know where in the Nei Jing your quote is from? I

don't recall this in my readings. Could it be an interpretation?

 

" treat the spirit first " and

" when the Shen is serene all pain is negligible " .

 

I was thinking further on our role regarding terminal vs. non-

terminal. In my experience, the patient almost always knows when

they have turned that final corner and are dying. This is something

separate from the " terminal " diagnosis. It can be very disconcerting

to a patient to be a cheer leader for life when they know they are

dying. Aligning with them as they leave can be a great spiritual

comfort. I guess I am saying that it is not always our job to keep

the faith - or maybe it is to keep the faith in the truth of the

process as it unfolds. I think this is what you are saying if I

understand you Skip.

 

 

Thanks

 

Sharon

 

 

 

Sharon Weizenbaum

86 Henry Street

Amherst, MA 01002

413-549-4021

sweiz

www.whitepinehealingarts.com

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sharon I believe I am remembering these quotes from the Bensky

Shanghai text.

Sorry , I cant confirm that they come from the Neijing either, now

that you ask.

I will look into it.

 

 

Chinese Medicine , sharon weizenbaum

<sweiz wrote:

>

> Hi Skip, do you know where in the Nei Jing your quote is from? I

> don't recall this in my readings. Could it be an interpretation?

>

> " treat the spirit first " and

> " when the Shen is serene all pain is negligible " .

>

>

[Guest guest]

* sharon weizenbaum; <sweiz on 13 Dec, 2006 wrote:

>Hi Skip, do you know where in the Nei Jing your quote is from? I

>don't recall this in my readings. Could it be an interpretation?

>

> " treat the spirit first " and

> " when the Shen is serene all pain is negligible " .

 

Su wen Ch. 25

 

--

Togan Muftuoglu

[Guest guest]

Hi all...

Hi all...

Hi all...

 

--- Togan Muftuoglu <toganm wrote:

 

> > " treat the spirit first " and

> > " when the Shen is serene all pain is negligible " .

>

> Su wen Ch. 25

>

> --

> Togan Muftuoglu

 

Su Wen Chapter 25

" Fan ci zhi zhen, bi xian zhi shen "

" True needling must first pacify the spirit "

 

 

 

 

 

_________

Now you can scan emails quickly with a reading pane. Get the new Mail.

http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html

[Guest guest]

--- Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

 

> Hi all...

> Hi all...

> Hi all...

 

Woops, that's weird. Sorry.

 

 

 

 

 

 

_________

All new Mail " The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of

use. " - PC Magazine

http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html

[Guest guest]

Hi Skip, this brought something up for me.

I often wish I did not have the " burden " or limit of

a terminal diagnosis on me or the patient. In a sense,

that sort of diagnosis allows me to be lazy and

fearful (apart from being potentially shattering for

the patient). I no longer have to exert myelf to

follow the transformations of Yin and Yang (coz geez I

already know what's going to happen). I no longer have

to concentrate to a degree - and with a freedom! -

that allows no room for the " outcome " , but instead is

_fixed_ on this infinite change, right /now/. Instead,

I half-heartedly assess, treat for nausea, and know

that I will fail, because the point is no longer to

follow the dragon, but rather to provide some comfort

and improve quality of life in the face of our

collective failures to force this person to continue

living.

For me it has become the difference between flowing

and damming something up. Trying to " stop " death. As

if that wasn't a transformation. Buying into our

primitive and yet very modern fear of endings...yes,

I'm terrified of death.

 

Thanks,

Hugo

 

--- skip8080 <skip8080 wrote:

 

> sometimes wish I that I had not been told that he is

> terminal. Am I

> wrong to consider the doctors prognosis? I think

> not, and yet it's an

> difficult place for me to be psychically, if you

> will. As if he can

> read my mind, and I'm supposed to " keep the faith "

> in his complete

> recovery. Death is part of Life,its the balance of

> Yin and Yang.

 

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

On Tuesday 12 December 2006 05:46, yehuda frischman wrote:

<snip>

> Even if a patient lives a little bit longer or has a little less pain, it's

>worth it. But let the patient decide, not me. Giving up or classifying a

>patient as a " special class " of terminal patients is not far removed from

>passive euthanasia, in my opinion.

 

Hi Yehuda!

 

Are you often called upon to treat terminal patients? My experience has been

that when they start having trouble getting around they stop coming to my

clinic, often without even cancelling the appointment.

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

On Wednesday 13 December 2006 06:28, sharon weizenbaum wrote:

<snip>

> keep the faith in the truth of the

> process as it unfolds. I think this is what you are saying if I

> understand you Skip.

 

Hi Sharon!

 

In my experience faith which includes a sense of a hereafter provides a more

comfortable passing. Better stop with that, however, as going beyond this is

too non-PC for this venue,

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

Hi Hugo, Skip & All,

 

Skip wrote: >> sometimes wish I that I had not been told that he is terminal.

Am I wrong to consider the doctors prognosis? I think not, and yet it's an

difficult place for me to be psychically. As if he can read my mind, and I'm

supposed to " keep the faith " in his complete recovery. Death is part of Life -

it's the balance of Yin and Yang.

 

Hugo replied: >> I often wish I did not have the " burden " or limit of a

terminal diagnosis on me or the patient. In a sense, that sort of diagnosis

allows me to be lazy and fearful (apart from being potentially shattering for

the patient). I no longer have to exert myself to follow the transformations of

Yin and Yang (coz geez I already know what's going to happen). I no longer

have to concentrate to a degree - and with a freedom! - that allows no room

for the " outcome " , but instead is _fixed_ on this infinite change, right /now/.

Instead, I half-heartedly assess, treat for nausea, and know that I will fail,

because the point is no longer to follow the dragon, but rather to provide

some comfort and improve quality of life in the face of our collective failures

to force this person to continue living. For me it has become the difference

between flowing and damming something up. Trying to " stop " death. As if

that wasn't a transformation. Buying into our primitive and yet very modern

fear of endings...yes, I'm terrified of death.

 

" We are only passing through " is an old Irish saying. It means that we are all

terminal; it is only a matter of time - a day, month, year, decade or century

before we move on.

 

Whether one is just born, or 99 years old, life is transient and death is

waiting. People with this knowledge / philisophy are not afraid of death; it is

only the natural transition to the spirit world.

 

But, while we live in the flicker of the candle, we should enjoy life and fill

every waking minute with work / play / actions / thoughts that others can

share and from which they can grow / find happiness and personal

fulfilment.

 

IMO, professionals who can help others to die well and at peace with

themselves, their family & friends and their G_d are doing a fabulous job.

 

Best regards,

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Great, Phil

 

Anne

-------------- Original message ----------------------

" " <

> Hi Hugo, Skip & All,

>

> Skip wrote: >> sometimes wish I that I had not been told that he is terminal.

> Am I wrong to consider the doctors prognosis? I think not, and yet it's an

> difficult place for me to be psychically. As if he can read my mind, and I'm

> supposed to " keep the faith " in his complete recovery. Death is part of Life -

> it's the balance of Yin and Yang.

>

> Hugo replied: >> I often wish I did not have the " burden " or limit of a

> terminal diagnosis on me or the patient. In a sense, that sort of diagnosis

> allows me to be lazy and fearful (apart from being potentially shattering for

> the patient). I no longer have to exert myself to follow the transformations

of

> Yin and Yang (coz geez I already know what's going to happen). I no longer

> have to concentrate to a degree - and with a freedom! - that allows no room

> for the " outcome " , but instead is _fixed_ on this infinite change, right

/now/.

> Instead, I half-heartedly assess, treat for nausea, and know that I will fail,

> because the point is no longer to follow the dragon, but rather to provide

> some comfort and improve quality of life in the face of our collective

failures

> to force this person to continue living. For me it has become the difference

> between flowing and damming something up. Trying to " stop " death. As if

> that wasn't a transformation. Buying into our primitive and yet very modern

> fear of endings...yes, I'm terrified of death.

>

> " We are only passing through " is an old Irish saying. It means that we are all

> terminal; it is only a matter of time - a day, month, year, decade or century

> before we move on.

>

> Whether one is just born, or 99 years old, life is transient and death is

> waiting. People with this knowledge / philisophy are not afraid of death; it

is

> only the natural transition to the spirit world.

>

> But, while we live in the flicker of the candle, we should enjoy life and fill

> every waking minute with work / play / actions / thoughts that others can

> share and from which they can grow / find happiness and personal

> fulfilment.

>

> IMO, professionals who can help others to die well and at peace with

> themselves, their family & friends and their G_d are doing a fabulous job.

>

> Best regards,

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Nicely said Phil.

 

I'm teaching OM Psych again in January and will be devoting half of a class

to the topic of treating the terminally ill and death. This thread is great

class material!

 

Life and death are two sides of the same coin. They exist together. They

are Yin and Yang and can never be separated. Loving one and hating or

fearing the other forces a schizophrenic like break in the mind. I don't

believe a person can be truly happy or content until they can come to love

both life and death.

 

To me there is something quite magical to be in the presence of a terminal

patient. Not always, but often, a certain nobility, honesty and love seems

to radiate from them. Their time is too short to put on the mask and do the

ego dance that most of us do unconsciously of trying to look good, make

money etc. It is refreshing. Their priorities are right on the money.

They are like Buddha's to anyone with the courage to listen.

 

Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht.

Oasis Acupuncture

http://www.oasisacupuncture.com

9832 N. Hayden Rd.

Suite 215

Scottsdale, AZ 85258

Phone: (480) 991-3650

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Phil

Rogers

Sunday, December 24, 2006 5:04 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: pain, life and death

 

 

 

Hi Hugo, Skip & All,

 

Skip wrote: >> sometimes wish I that I had not been told that he is

terminal.

Am I wrong to consider the doctors prognosis? I think not, and yet it's an

difficult place for me to be psychically. As if he can read my mind, and I'm

 

supposed to " keep the faith " in his complete recovery. Death is part of Life

-

it's the balance of Yin and Yang.

 

Hugo replied: >> I often wish I did not have the " burden " or limit of a

terminal diagnosis on me or the patient. In a sense, that sort of diagnosis

allows me to be lazy and fearful (apart from being potentially shattering

for

the patient). I no longer have to exert myself to follow the transformations

of

Yin and Yang (coz geez I already know what's going to happen). I no longer

have to concentrate to a degree - and with a freedom! - that allows no room

for the " outcome " , but instead is _fixed_ on this infinite change, right

/now/.

Instead, I half-heartedly assess, treat for nausea, and know that I will

fail,

because the point is no longer to follow the dragon, but rather to provide

some comfort and improve quality of life in the face of our collective

failures

to force this person to continue living. For me it has become the difference

 

between flowing and damming something up. Trying to " stop " death. As if

that wasn't a transformation. Buying into our primitive and yet very modern

fear of endings...yes, I'm terrified of death.

 

" We are only passing through " is an old Irish saying. It means that we are

all

terminal; it is only a matter of time - a day, month, year, decade or

century

before we move on.

 

Whether one is just born, or 99 years old, life is transient and death is

waiting. People with this knowledge / philisophy are not afraid of death; it

is

only the natural transition to the spirit world.

 

But, while we live in the flicker of the candle, we should enjoy life and

fill

every waking minute with work / play / actions / thoughts that others can

share and from which they can grow / find happiness and personal

fulfilment.

 

IMO, professionals who can help others to die well and at peace with

themselves, their family & friends and their G_d are doing a fabulous job.

 

Best regards,

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil,Skip, Hugo, Chris, & all,

Thanks for your post.

I have been doing Hospice Nursing for few months.

I had questioned / reassessed myself, and temporarily quit. (Kavorkian-like

remorse)

I knew deep in me, there's RIGHTNESS to it.

But I guess, my difficulty was to shift from " saving life to assisting in

the actual dying process " .

I'm enlightened, and now found more strength.

I can now go back with peace and love.

Take care.

loveandgratitude,

Dr. Amy Calibuso, RN.BSN.LMT, AP.DOM

Doctor of Oriental Medicine

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I agree, Phil and Christopher.

 

When I was a student, I had the opportunity to spend one of my apprenticeship

shifts treating terminally ill patients at San Diego Hospice. It was awesome

working in an environment where it was expected that all of the patients would

die sooner rather than later. All the staff was focused on the same goal -

helping the patient be most comfortable during this transition, and helping them

feel complete as their lives came to an end. In addition to treating patients,

we also treated their families and any staff members who welcomed our medicine.

While the most common thing we did was relieve pain and other discomforts, we

also helped people die peacefully. It was an interesting twist in my training,

otherwise focused on helping people get better, and I still think of it in my

practice, especially with new elderly patients with myriad health complications

who seem close to the end of life. While I never want to discourage people from

living as fully and healthfully as

they can, sometimes I think it is important to acknowledge openly with patients

that dramatic recovery is not a realistic or likely goal, even though I believe

in, and have seen miracles from time to time. I have never had a patient get

angry with me for this conversation. Some get sad, some fearful, but most are

grateful for the permission to think about dying, and the opportunity to assess

their priorities and get their affairs in order. Some even find it a relief and

relax for the first time in years, prompting an unexpected improvement in

symptoms which improves their quality of life, and I think, also extends their

lifespan. While I don't have this conversation with patients often, I am not

hesitant to have it because I see this also as part of my role as a healer.

 

 

" Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. " <ckvedeler wrote:

Nicely said Phil.

 

I'm teaching OM Psych again in January and will be devoting half of a class

to the topic of treating the terminally ill and death. This thread is great

class material!

 

Life and death are two sides of the same coin. They exist together. They

are Yin and Yang and can never be separated. Loving one and hating or

fearing the other forces a schizophrenic like break in the mind. I don't

believe a person can be truly happy or content until they can come to love

both life and death.

 

To me there is something quite magical to be in the presence of a terminal

patient. Not always, but often, a certain nobility, honesty and love seems

to radiate from them. Their time is too short to put on the mask and do the

ego dance that most of us do unconsciously of trying to look good, make

money etc. It is refreshing. Their priorities are right on the money.

They are like Buddha's to anyone with the courage to listen.

 

Phil Wrote:

 

Instead, I half-heartedly assess, treat for nausea, and know that I will

fail,

because the point is no longer to follow the dragon, but rather to provide

some comfort and improve quality of life in the face of our collective

failures

to force this person to continue living. For me it has become the difference

 

between flowing and damming something up. Trying to " stop " death. As if

that wasn't a transformation. Buying into our primitive and yet very modern

fear of endings...yes, I'm terrified of death.

 

" We are only passing through " is an old Irish saying. It means that we are

all

terminal; it is only a matter of time - a day, month, year, decade or

century

before we move on.

 

Whether one is just born, or 99 years old, life is transient and death is

waiting. People with this knowledge / philisophy are not afraid of death; it

is

only the natural transition to the spirit world.

 

But, while we live in the flicker of the candle, we should enjoy life and

fill

every waking minute with work / play / actions / thoughts that others can

share and from which they can grow / find happiness and personal

fulfilment.

 

IMO, professionals who can help others to die well and at peace with

themselves, their family & friends and their G_d are doing a fabulous job.

 

Best regards,

 

 

 

 

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