Guest guest Posted October 29, 2006 Report Share Posted October 29, 2006 What is taught for the extra 1200 or 1300 hours beyond the Master's level are the Classics, your specialty, and a Capstone research project. All you need to do is log in to one of the schools to see what is taught. Much as I did to find that Chiros only go 3,200 hours to get their doctorate. Their are no secrets and I'm blowing no smoke, check it out for yourself, don't trust me. I certainly didn't trust you. Dr. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. - DrGRPorter Saturday, October 28, 2006 9:02 PM Chinese Medicine Re: acupuncture degrees Dr. Snow: In the WM disciplines (Allopathy, Chiropractic) you mention, interexaminer reliability is very high for most diagnostic tests or categories. A discussion on this very newsgroup, I believe, revealed that there was almost no interexaminer reliability even when CM professors were the examiners. Which begs the question.. exactly what is taught for 4200 hours? Seems that even after all that school, no reliable knowledge is imparted. Now who's blowing smoke? Guy Porter In a message dated 10/28/2006 7:09:20 A.M. Central Daylight Time, don83407 writes: Please stop blowing smoke. Dr. Snow, DAOM, MSTOM, MPH, L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2006 Report Share Posted October 29, 2006 I just got a letter from Whittier promising a Chiro doctorate in 3,200 hrs so I don't know where you are getting your info. - Saturday, October 28, 2006 9:01 PM Chinese Medicine Re: acupuncture degrees Just to give credit where credit is due, the Chiropractic program at Whittier, CA is called the Southern California University of Health Sciences/ Los Angeles college of Chiropractic and over 10 trimesters, (3 years and four months), students rack up 4,755 hours. http://www.scuhs.edu/chiropractic/schedule/ Also, interestingly, the same school, the Southern California University of Health Sciences, also serves as a college of Acupuncture and Oriental medicine. Over 9 trimesters (3 years), students accumulate 3,330 hours for a masters of science degree. http://www.scuhs.edu/aom/schedule/ Just as a comparison, another well respected college with a reputation for rigorous acupuncture training, the American College of Traditional Chinese Medicine has a masters degree program of study of 3,065 hours over 13 plus quarters. http://www.actcm.edu/html/curriculum.html Concerning the doctoral program hours at ACTCM, on top of a masters degree in science: " The program consists of 552 didactic hours and 732 clinical hours offered in a four-day weekend format meeting every month for 9 quarters. It concludes with a 252-hour clinical experience that can be completed either in China (PRC) or in the USA. " http://www.actcm.edu/html/DoctoralProgram.html In total, ACTCM's total hours (including the masters and doctoral programs) equal 4,601 hours. This is pretty much standard. Please review my last email for California state and national acupuncture and chiropractic hour requirements. What this shows in the realm of acupuncture education is that there needs to be more consistency along state lines for program hours; CA, FL, NM etc., and my assertion is that nationally, once there are more DAOM's available to teach at acupuncture colleges with doctoral programs in every region, we can institute entry level doctoral programs that are on par with chiropractic and allopathic medical schools hours. Of course, now those with masters degrees can take the doctoral programs available in California, Oregon and Washington and possibly some kind of grandfathering law can be put into place for those who have been practicing for a certain period of time with accumulated CEU and post-secondary education hours. I think this is fair. We should defininitely raise the bar to at least the same level of formal education hours as our colleagues in the chiropractic and allopathic circuits. And along with that, within limits, have an expanded scope of practice ie. herbal point injection and the respect that comes along with being a doctor. Along a similar vein, acupuncture and oriental medicine has sustained itself for over 3000 years, codified over 2100 years ago in the Nei-Jing and survived complete assimilation and annihilation because of an intense reverence for tradition. Along with that, the apprenticeship tradition has been focal. Most of the acupuncture and oriental medicine practitioners that I know have studied with at least one teacher (usually one respected in their field with over 10 yrs of experience) for at least a couple of years, usually during and after their formal education. Most of these practitioners continue to study under the mentorship of a master, even 10 years down the line. When it comes to accounting formal education hours, I think that it is crucial that we attain at least equal status to our counterparts in other medical fields, even in light of the fact that the apprenticeship hours, (slaving away with tuina, moxa, herbs and consultation with our teacher) may never be counted for. With this, I can say that I have deep respect for all health practitioners who have put the time and energy into helping our fellow humans. Maybe idealistically, I hope that there can be cooperation and individuation, in the Jungian sense, between our respective fields and the languages that we traverse by. K. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individuation On 10/27/06, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: > > Here in California's Wittier (?) college of Chiropractic, you get your > DC in 3,200 hours, roughly what our Master of Acupuncture is. That's less > than 4 years. Now our acu schools here in CA are 3200 to 3500 hours and when > you add the hours for the DAOM, that another 1300 hours or so. That makes > the acu doctorate more hours than the chir or the MD. Of course, none of > this includes the required undergrad hours. If you added a BS to the mix, > then you would be talking those kinds of hours. But then, most AOM > practitioners have the Bachelors also. > > The MD degree is around 4200 hours of academic time. This does not include > residency. Residency is not academic time and it is paid time, as in a job. > Please stop blowing smoke. > > Dr. Snow, DAOM, MSTOM, MPH, L.Ac. > > - > Dr. Avery Jenkins > Friday, October 27, 2006 2:02 PM > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Re: acupuncture degrees > > Seems like I touched a nerve. I don't want to set off a flame war; hey, > I'm just on this forum to contribute and learn like everybody else. But I > do want to clear up a couple of misconceptions, at least with regard to > practice in the U.S. > > Like it or not, the MD and DC degrees are significantly more extensive > than those required for acupuncture, in fact, over twice as long. Between > 4500 and 5000 hours are required for MD or DC, which are terminal degrees > comparable to the PhD, compared to the 1900 hours necessary for the > master's level acupuncture degrees. I'm sure the OMD is more extensive > than the master's degrees, perhaps someone can provide the details. The > additional education does make us better equipped to adapt to new > strategies, due to a broader base in the fundamentals. And, as I said, > particularly in the case of the DC, the holistic underpinnings of the > education make it easier to absorb another holistic approach. For example, > > as a chiropractic student, I also had classes in the use of homeopathy, > which some DCs use extensively in their practices as well, but which, like > > TCM, is also a discipline with its own arcana. At the risk of repeating > myself ad nauseum, the education is as much about learning *how* to think > as it is accumulating data. > > I think an apt practical analogy for the relationship between the > acupuncturist/DC and L.Ac. might be the relationship between psychologist > and social worker. Both provide similar, overlapping services. The higher > degree alone is no assurance of better clinical excellence. When what I > need a good therapist for a patient, I frequently turn to a licensed > social worker. When I need a broader-scope approach requiring enhanced > diagnostic acumen, or a specialized skillset (e.g. neuropsychology), I > will refer to a psychologist. > > Second, chiropractic did not " originate from tui-na, " as you suggest. It > is certainly true that most cultures, both western and eastern have > longstanding traditions of spinal and other joint manipulation, and it > would be surprising if a system as comprehensive as TCM lacked such a > discipline. However, DD Palmer's concept of " innate intelligence, " while > on the surface similar to the idea of Qi, actually has far greater > similarities to western vitalism than it does to the eastern dialectic. > Technique-wise, tui na is probably actually closer to osteopathic > manipulation than it is to the HVLA of chiropractic. > > Frankly, I say if your scope of practice permits the use of tui-na, go for > > it! Joint manipulation is powerful medicine, regardless of what you call > it. > > The who-is-better bickering is, from my point of view, reflective of an > underlying belief in scarcity. We both have different and overlapping > skillsets, and both have tremendous value to our patients individually and > > to society at large. There's so many people that need us, and don't even > know it yet! I'm on this list to enjoy with, contribute to, and learn from > > those with whom I have so much in common. I hope that I've arrived on this > > path via a different route than yours does not interfere with our capacity > > to learn from one another. > > Avery L. Jenkins, DC, FIAMA, DACBN > Chiropractic Physician > Fellow, International Academy of Medical Acupuncturists > Diplomate, American Clinical Board of Nutrition > www.docaltmed.com > > On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:38:28 -0400, <acudoc11 <acudoc11%40aol.com>> > wrote: > > > Then it should be sufficient for an Acupuncture Physician (non MD - non > > DC) > > to go the distance of the week-end warrior by adding an additional > > 100-300 > > hours and hit the streets immediately with sufficient initial adequacy > > to use > > chiropractic? > > Is it time to have courses in Acu-practic? > > Oh...wait a minute.....APs don't really need any additional education or > > clinical experience as that which is called chiropractic originated > > from Tui-Na > > and that's a basic TCM course. > > Sounds like a plan!!!! > > Richard > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > necessary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2006 Report Share Posted October 29, 2006 No, what needs to be understood is that some acupuncture programs are just that. Acupuncture only. California has none of these acupuncture only programs but some states do. These programs do not teach the complete medicine. AOM is not just acupuncture. AOM includes Chinese medical herbology, tuina manipulation, nutrition, and energy medicine. One may earn an acupuncture only degree in around 1,800 hours, maybe a little less. Secondly, the only profession I know that gets tested and licensed in herbology are AOM practitioners. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. - Saturday, October 28, 2006 9:01 PM Chinese Medicine Re: acupuncture degrees Just to give credit where credit is due, the Chiropractic program at Whittier, CA is called the Southern California University of Health Sciences/ Los Angeles college of Chiropractic and over 10 trimesters, (3 years and four months), students rack up 4,755 hours. http://www.scuhs.edu/chiropractic/schedule/ Also, interestingly, the same school, the Southern California University of Health Sciences, also serves as a college of Acupuncture and Oriental medicine. Over 9 trimesters (3 years), students accumulate 3,330 hours for a masters of science degree. http://www.scuhs.edu/aom/schedule/ Just as a comparison, another well respected college with a reputation for rigorous acupuncture training, the American College of Traditional Chinese Medicine has a masters degree program of study of 3,065 hours over 13 plus quarters. http://www.actcm.edu/html/curriculum.html Concerning the doctoral program hours at ACTCM, on top of a masters degree in science: " The program consists of 552 didactic hours and 732 clinical hours offered in a four-day weekend format meeting every month for 9 quarters. It concludes with a 252-hour clinical experience that can be completed either in China (PRC) or in the USA. " http://www.actcm.edu/html/DoctoralProgram.html In total, ACTCM's total hours (including the masters and doctoral programs) equal 4,601 hours. This is pretty much standard. Please review my last email for California state and national acupuncture and chiropractic hour requirements. What this shows in the realm of acupuncture education is that there needs to be more consistency along state lines for program hours; CA, FL, NM etc., and my assertion is that nationally, once there are more DAOM's available to teach at acupuncture colleges with doctoral programs in every region, we can institute entry level doctoral programs that are on par with chiropractic and allopathic medical schools hours. Of course, now those with masters degrees can take the doctoral programs available in California, Oregon and Washington and possibly some kind of grandfathering law can be put into place for those who have been practicing for a certain period of time with accumulated CEU and post-secondary education hours. I think this is fair. We should defininitely raise the bar to at least the same level of formal education hours as our colleagues in the chiropractic and allopathic circuits. And along with that, within limits, have an expanded scope of practice ie. herbal point injection and the respect that comes along with being a doctor. Along a similar vein, acupuncture and oriental medicine has sustained itself for over 3000 years, codified over 2100 years ago in the Nei-Jing and survived complete assimilation and annihilation because of an intense reverence for tradition. Along with that, the apprenticeship tradition has been focal. Most of the acupuncture and oriental medicine practitioners that I know have studied with at least one teacher (usually one respected in their field with over 10 yrs of experience) for at least a couple of years, usually during and after their formal education. Most of these practitioners continue to study under the mentorship of a master, even 10 years down the line. When it comes to accounting formal education hours, I think that it is crucial that we attain at least equal status to our counterparts in other medical fields, even in light of the fact that the apprenticeship hours, (slaving away with tuina, moxa, herbs and consultation with our teacher) may never be counted for. With this, I can say that I have deep respect for all health practitioners who have put the time and energy into helping our fellow humans. Maybe idealistically, I hope that there can be cooperation and individuation, in the Jungian sense, between our respective fields and the languages that we traverse by. K. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individuation On 10/27/06, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: > > Here in California's Wittier (?) college of Chiropractic, you get your > DC in 3,200 hours, roughly what our Master of Acupuncture is. That's less > than 4 years. Now our acu schools here in CA are 3200 to 3500 hours and when > you add the hours for the DAOM, that another 1300 hours or so. That makes > the acu doctorate more hours than the chir or the MD. Of course, none of > this includes the required undergrad hours. If you added a BS to the mix, > then you would be talking those kinds of hours. But then, most AOM > practitioners have the Bachelors also. > > The MD degree is around 4200 hours of academic time. This does not include > residency. Residency is not academic time and it is paid time, as in a job. > Please stop blowing smoke. > > Dr. Snow, DAOM, MSTOM, MPH, L.Ac. > > - > Dr. Avery Jenkins > Friday, October 27, 2006 2:02 PM > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Re: acupuncture degrees > > Seems like I touched a nerve. I don't want to set off a flame war; hey, > I'm just on this forum to contribute and learn like everybody else. But I > do want to clear up a couple of misconceptions, at least with regard to > practice in the U.S. > > Like it or not, the MD and DC degrees are significantly more extensive > than those required for acupuncture, in fact, over twice as long. Between > 4500 and 5000 hours are required for MD or DC, which are terminal degrees > comparable to the PhD, compared to the 1900 hours necessary for the > master's level acupuncture degrees. I'm sure the OMD is more extensive > than the master's degrees, perhaps someone can provide the details. The > additional education does make us better equipped to adapt to new > strategies, due to a broader base in the fundamentals. And, as I said, > particularly in the case of the DC, the holistic underpinnings of the > education make it easier to absorb another holistic approach. For example, > > as a chiropractic student, I also had classes in the use of homeopathy, > which some DCs use extensively in their practices as well, but which, like > > TCM, is also a discipline with its own arcana. At the risk of repeating > myself ad nauseum, the education is as much about learning *how* to think > as it is accumulating data. > > I think an apt practical analogy for the relationship between the > acupuncturist/DC and L.Ac. might be the relationship between psychologist > and social worker. Both provide similar, overlapping services. The higher > degree alone is no assurance of better clinical excellence. When what I > need a good therapist for a patient, I frequently turn to a licensed > social worker. When I need a broader-scope approach requiring enhanced > diagnostic acumen, or a specialized skillset (e.g. neuropsychology), I > will refer to a psychologist. > > Second, chiropractic did not " originate from tui-na, " as you suggest. It > is certainly true that most cultures, both western and eastern have > longstanding traditions of spinal and other joint manipulation, and it > would be surprising if a system as comprehensive as TCM lacked such a > discipline. However, DD Palmer's concept of " innate intelligence, " while > on the surface similar to the idea of Qi, actually has far greater > similarities to western vitalism than it does to the eastern dialectic. > Technique-wise, tui na is probably actually closer to osteopathic > manipulation than it is to the HVLA of chiropractic. > > Frankly, I say if your scope of practice permits the use of tui-na, go for > > it! Joint manipulation is powerful medicine, regardless of what you call > it. > > The who-is-better bickering is, from my point of view, reflective of an > underlying belief in scarcity. We both have different and overlapping > skillsets, and both have tremendous value to our patients individually and > > to society at large. There's so many people that need us, and don't even > know it yet! I'm on this list to enjoy with, contribute to, and learn from > > those with whom I have so much in common. I hope that I've arrived on this > > path via a different route than yours does not interfere with our capacity > > to learn from one another. > > Avery L. Jenkins, DC, FIAMA, DACBN > Chiropractic Physician > Fellow, International Academy of Medical Acupuncturists > Diplomate, American Clinical Board of Nutrition > www.docaltmed.com > > On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:38:28 -0400, <acudoc11 <acudoc11%40aol.com>> > wrote: > > > Then it should be sufficient for an Acupuncture Physician (non MD - non > > DC) > > to go the distance of the week-end warrior by adding an additional > > 100-300 > > hours and hit the streets immediately with sufficient initial adequacy > > to use > > chiropractic? > > Is it time to have courses in Acu-practic? > > Oh...wait a minute.....APs don't really need any additional education or > > clinical experience as that which is called chiropractic originated > > from Tui-Na > > and that's a basic TCM course. > > Sounds like a plan!!!! > > Richard > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > necessary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2006 Report Share Posted October 29, 2006 Good response! It does get tiring to have to defend our knowledge base. Our medicine is at least 3,000 years old, Chiro is just over 100 and western medicine maybe 150 yrs. They're the new boys on the block, not us. Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. - Judy Lemieux L.Ac. Saturday, October 28, 2006 10:45 AM Chinese Medicine Re: acupuncture degrees > Posted by: " Dr. Avery Jenkins " docaltmed mirapei2004 > Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:01 pm (PDT) > > Like it or not, the MD and DC degrees are significantly more extensive > than those required for acupuncture, in fact, over twice as long. > Between > 4500 and 5000 hours are required for MD or DC, which are terminal > degrees > comparable to the PhD, compared to the 1900 hours necessary for the > master's level acupuncture degrees. I strongly disagree with this statement. I don't know of any master's degree program in the US that is only 1900 hours. The accreditation commission requires significantly more than that to accredit a school. Most programs are approximately 3000 hours (or more), taking 3 to 4 years of rigorous full time graduate study to complete. Internships are strictly supervised. Comprehensive national board exams are long, expensive and difficult. Most students carry huge student loan debt upon completion. I don't know of any other master's level degree that takes this much time, money or effort to complete. To belittle the effort that most of us on this list have put toward our professional degree is, needless to say, somewhat insulting. 300 hours of acupuncture training is not enough to make anyone proficient in Asian medicine, just as 300 hours of chiropractic training, or western medical training will not make us proficient to 'do chiropractic' or to 'do western medicine'. I know a number of DCs who have gone through the entire TCM masters program and they would whole-heartedly agree. -judy -- Judy Lemieux, M.S., L.Ac. In Denver & Centennial, Colorado (303) 964-1996 http://www.QingTingAcupuncture.com Acupuncture Association of Colorado President http://www.acucol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2006 Report Share Posted October 29, 2006 In following this discussion, I'm seeing a sub-thread concerning the various titles, licensing requirements and hours requirements across various states. At the AAOM conference last weekend, we had a very interesting council of presidents meeting and decided to revive the old association (or state rep where there is no state association) email list. This hasn't happened yet as it's only been a week, but this subject may be a good starting point for that group to take up to organize all of the various information into one easily readable document. So - If you are a state association president (or representative), please contact me off list with your name, name of your state association and position there, email address, city you live in, and phone number. Myself and Greg Sperber of CSOMA have taken it upon ourselves to get an interstate discussion going and to include every state and every association. -judy judy (at) QingTingAcupuncture (dot) com -- Judy Lemieux, M.S., L.Ac. In Denver & Centennial, Colorado (303) 964-1996 http://www.QingTingAcupuncture.com Acupuncture Association of Colorado President http://www.acucol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2006 Report Share Posted October 29, 2006 Topics: " needle point injection therapy " and Florida definition of acupuncture debate In Florida, there was a critical debate between chiropractors and acupuncturists in their definitions of acupuncture. Please read: http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2004/sep/09faom.html In Florida, " the requirements for those having graduated after October 2003 the standard is some 2,700 hours of supervised instruction " Also 60 additional hours are needed to be certified to perform " point injection therapy " . There are some oriental medical physicians who are cautious of this modality: http://www.hantang.com/english/en_Articles/acuinjection.htm As of now, I believe there are at least 5 states where point injection therapy is under the acupuncture scope of practice: Arkansas, Florida, New Mexico, S. Carolina and Colorado http://www.dora.state.co.us/Acupuncturists/Policy_InjectionTherapy.pdf In New Mexico, the minimum formal education hours required to register is 2400. 1100 didactic, 450 herbology, 900 supervised clinic hours. http://www.rld.state.nm.us/b & c/acupuncture/PDF's/Approved%20Education%20Programs\ ..pdf In California, the minimum is 3000 hours. Point injection therapy is not under the scope of practice of licensed acupuncturists in CA. On 10/29/06, Cheryl Reid <cherylereid wrote: > > DOM is the title now given in New Mexico once you pass their state exam. > > Diane Notarianni <Diane<Diane%40oneworldmedicine.com>> > wrote: Greetings all, > I am new to this forum. I am an OM practitioner in Tucson. I have > enjoyed reading the postings. Thank you. > > Since we are on the topic of degrees, I am curious about all the DOM > and OMD degrees flying around. I do recall, years back, that some of > the people I know who have OMDs only went to school for maybe 2 > years and that degree was not a degree at all but a license, much > like the designation AP or L.Ac. but it has been let's say, > manipulated to catapult the holder to let's say... a higher medical > position. Is this correct? > > I am not offended by all this but I am aware (and would like to be > better informed on this topic). Many of my patients ask me about > this. I worked very hard for a Ph.D. (a 12 year program! ...average > time it takes nationwide) and when I see patients confused, well, I > gotta wonder. > > Any comments? Any enlightenment? please... > > Diane Notarianni, Ph.D. L.Ac. > One World Medicine > Tucson, AZ > > Have A > Great Day! > Cheryl > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 Dr. Porter, I agree with you that inter-examiner reliability concerning diagnostic tests between chiropractors and possibly mds. may be more exact than in Oriental Medicine on average. There is a running joke between acupuncturists too. However, the diagnoses made between qualified examiners will not contradict the foundational 8 principles of yin/yang/def/excess/cold/hot/int/ext. The integrous understanding of these principles form the foundation of the medicine, not only for licensed acupuncturists, but also for other physicians who have crossed over into this terrain. If one desires to project these terms to fit their initial modus operanda, such as translating heat " re " into " inflammation " , there will be much lost. For instance, yin def. heat may not actually raise the body temperature of the patient, yet there may be a subjective feeling of " five centered heat " or " bone-heat " experienced by the patient. An apparent " biao " excess in a patient, may be accompanied by an underlying " ben " root deficency. To understand these nuances takes at least 1500 clock hours, orally transmitted and practically applied by qualified supervisors. The distinctions between inter-examiners of OM come from the complexity of a wholistic non-linear approach to diagnosing the patient and not just the disease. In OM, at least as meridian theory goes, which is a sub-set of the complete pardigm, there is more consistency between examiners, because of such tools as palpation (which is akin to chiropractic and osteopathy) and more recently " skin impedence monitoring " tools, such as those sold at OMS-medical..http://www.lhasaoms.com/page.ccml?18 As far as specifically treating pain management goes, I can see how an md, chiropractor, or osteopath could potentially enhance their practice with this software without too much more OM education, because the tools have been designed for specific parameters. Stagnant channels, ashi points and bio-electrical impedence in the spinal nerves can be assessed without further critical assessment. This kind of technology which has almost defined allopathic medical diagnosis today, may be a primary diagnostic feature for " chiro-acupuncturists " , " medi-acupuncturists " and " osteo-acupuncturists " . http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/17/22/01.html However, needle application is a practice which requires extensive training from a proficient teacher and / or teaching institution. Following this rationale, 300 hours would not be enough didactic and clinical experience to practice oriental medicine. According to the accredited national and California schools standard of over 1500 clock hours of purely oriental medicine training, my assertion is that chiropractors and medical doctors who wish to practice oriental medicine would have to go through the requisite 1500 hours and pass the national/ state boards, in order to practice. Of course, this is just my 2 cents. In at least one state in this country, mds can practice acupuncture, but an indivdual who has passed the nccaom boards can only be a " Acupuncturist's assistant " . Read this: http://www.lsbme.louisiana.gov/documents/laws_rules/laws/CHAPTER15PartIVACUPUNCT\ URISTRS3713561360.pdf On 10/28/06, DrGRPorter <DrGRPorter > wrote: > > > Dr. Snow: > > In the WM disciplines (Allopathy, Chiropractic) you mention, interexaminer > > reliability is very high for most diagnostic tests or categories. > > A discussion on this very newsgroup, I believe, revealed that there was > almost no interexaminer reliability even when CM professors were the > examiners. > > Which begs the question.. exactly what is taught for 4200 hours? Seems > that even after all that school, no reliable knowledge is imparted. > > Now who's blowing smoke? > > Guy Porter > > In a message dated 10/28/2006 7:09:20 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > don83407 <don83407%40msn.com> writes: > > Please stop blowing smoke. > > Dr. Snow, DAOM, MSTOM, MPH, L.Ac. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 On Sunday 29 October 2006 06:38, Cheryl Reid wrote: <snip> > I am not offended by all this but I am aware (and would like to be > better informed on this topic). Many of my patients ask me about > this. I worked very hard for a Ph.D. (a 12 year program! ...average > time it takes nationwide) and when I see patients confused, well, I > gotta wonder. > > Any comments? Any enlightenment? please... Hi Diane! I think that a lot of people just won't use anyone who isn't a " doctor " for healthcare, soooo if you actually want to use your license you have to be what people want you to be. -- Regards, Pete http://www.pete-theisen.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 The real reason is MONEY. They obviously aren;t making a living at what they were trained in!!!! Richard In a message dated 10/28/2006 12:28:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, don83407 writes: I think the reason so many chiros and mds are flocking to learn or perform acupuncture is: 1. Because it works 2. AOM is a complete medicine, we really don't need to practice allopathic or chiro. Perhaps there is something lacking in their own medicine? 3. Acupuncture is a strong tool within AOM, but it isn't the complete medicine. It is powerful though. I find it odd that mds are saying acupuncture doesn't work through one side of their mouth while at the same time flocking to use it in their own practices. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 Every dual licensed chriopractor/acupuncturist rigorously states the same. Richard In a message dated 10/28/2006 12:38:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, mischievous00 writes: I would like to add my opinion which I feel is pretty much unbiased regarding this issue since I have been trained in both professions. I graduated from Los Angeles College of Chiropractic in 1990. A few years after this I started my education at SAMRA University of Oriental Medicine in Los Angeles and graduated in 2000. I always hear the same issue with chiro's regarding the hours that were required to graduate. For some reason they feel the increased hours of chiro education makes them qualified to do acupuncture. Having degrees in both professions, I can tell you this is nonsense, the educational process between both professions are like comparing oranges and apples. To be honest, chiropractic college was more difficult due to all the western medicine courses, although the majority of the education that was learned would soon be forgotten and was not education that you would necessarily use in practice, except the major information that was necessary to make a proper diagnosis, etc. I found my education at SAMRA was a much more difficult and different experience, lots of memorization and different strategies for treating patients which in itself is complicated if one wants to do a good job. As most of you know that everything that you learn in acupuncture/TCM school you can use in practice which seperates the 2 professions and after graduating most of us realize how much more there is to learn to be 100 percent competent due to the different areas of specialities. I have spoken with several MD's and DC's regarding their education thru the UCLA program or John Amaro's program and its pretty sad, yes they do get defensive especially when I ask them basic questions such as which points are contraindicated in pregnancy and they cannot tell you the majority of the points, or which points are more relevant for a frontal headache, temporal headache, occipital headache, etc. and they tell you LI-4 is the main point or they are not sure what to say. This in itself will determine the effectiveness of the treatment and clincal outcome. This is what seperates the professionals doing acupuncture and the clinical results that one achieve. As most of you are aware and from what I have seen, the clinical results vary greatly. This is like dismissing spinal manipulation/adjustment from being non-effective when being done by an acupuncturist, physical therapist, or MD because the clinical results were not that effective. I also know have several DC's that are mixers who feel that acupuncture is not in their scope of practice because of the demanding education and clinical training it takes to achive this. The chiro's are the first to yell and scream when another profession is trying to incorporate spinal manipulation without the adequate training. Both professions need to respect the other's training and education and not feel that because one has more hours in education this qualifies them to do the acupuncture. Just ask any other chiro what his opinion is who has also gone thru both educational programs, I can tell you their opinion will be pretty much as I have expressed. Brian N. Hardy Doctor of Chiropractic Licensed Acupuncturist Certified Clinical Nutritionist Master of Science in Oriental Medicine Diplomate of the American Clinical Board of Nutrition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 The AOM program in Florida is at a bare minimum of 2,738 hours with the majority of schools already at or over 3,000 hrs. Keep in mind that each state is different and depending on the political climate necessary to adjust accordingly. The only way to gain clarity is the know the meaning of titles in each and every state along with the practice act. For example...no disrecpect meant...but Rhode Island has the title of Doctor of Acupuncture and they are not primary care providers. The history of certain forces trying to keep AOM out of mainstream with the masters versus an entry level doctor degree (notice the word is not.....doctorate) has delayed the inevitable of AOM taking its place in American healthcare. So those who can move their individual states forward even if it is not ideal...do so. For example in Florida initially the practice was limited to acupuncture so we adjusted and made Oriental medicine part of Acupuncture. Anyone looking at that would say that that's backwards and incorrect but hey....it worked. We legislatively made a circular argument...acupuncture is part of OM and OM is part of acupuncture. Although it would have been more constructive without all the bickering and cross problems with DCs and MDs.... if the originators back in the 70's formulated the pathway correctly but then again....that was not the purpose by those in control within the AOM profession. Richard In a message dated 10/29/2006 12:04:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, johnkokko writes: In response to Richard's infomation about regulations against calling oneself an acupuncturist without being an A.P. in Florida, does anyone know about California's rules on the same issue? Also, the discussion that Z. Rosenberg brings up about herbal training hours vs. acupuncture-only and the qualifications and regulations that could entail with this issue is intriguing. Finally, I too would like to know this differences in title from OMD, DOM, AP, LAc, Dipl.Ac. and D.A.O.M. Hopefully, there can be some more clarity on these designations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 A perfect example of the rediculousness of many MDs/DCs etc is when I testified in Washington, DC in 2003 before the Dept of Health and Human Services on alternative medicine's need for 4,000 billing codes. A panel member (most were MDs) had the nerve to say that all massage is the same and acupunctuire was nothing more than simply sticking a needle in a person. So I asked this MD if I handed her a needle and requested that she insert it into my leg.....did that make it acupuncture? What about the thousands of hours of didactic and clinical experience? Isn't that in large part what qualifies the procedure as acupuncture? The insurance companies are defrauding their insureds by reimbursing chiro-puncture and medi-puncture under the guise of calling it acupuncture. One of these days we will get to address those issues in the legal arena. Richard In a message dated 10/29/2006 12:13:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes: If we want to reduce the medicine to find a point, stick a needle in it, then yes, by all means, 500 hours (not 300) can get you in the door. But the medicine is so much more than this, and needling/moxa is so much more than this. After 4 years of clinical supervision/observation in needling tech and moxa, it is hard to fully embody the intricacies of needling. And without this guidance in the medicine, learning how you can use one point in 20 different ways is not possible. This is why historically the medicine was passed on generation to generation, through a observation/supervision type model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 And contrary to what one DC has written...chiropractic definitely had its roots from TuiNa. R In a message dated 10/29/2006 11:29:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, don83407 writes: Good response! It does get tiring to have to defend our knowledge base. Our medicine is at least 3,000 years old, Chiro is just over 100 and western medicine maybe 150 yrs. They're the new boys on the block, not us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 In actuality there was no debate which took place in Florida. Don't always believe everything you read. The writer did write some letters to the Board of Chiropractic but it was others who personally challenged the DCs and MDs and are still in the process of doing so causing the state to implement a LAW this year to cut out all the fraud on every healthcare provider's part including even some of the APs. Richard In a message dated 10/29/2006 12:06:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, johnkokko writes: In Florida, there was a critical debate between chiropractors and acupuncturists in their definitions of acupuncture. Please read: http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2004/sep/09faom.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 As I remember Hawaii requires MDs to take the complete program before they use an acupuncture needle. Also.....the W.H.O. in 1996 published a very clear document and message. MDs (DCs were not included) may use acupuncture needles adjunctively in their practice with 200 hours of education but if the MDs wish to practice acupuncture up to the level of an acupuncturist they must complete 1,500 hours of didactic & clinical hours and then take and pass a recognized test. Richard In a message dated 10/29/2006 7:47:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, johnkokko writes: According to the accredited national and California schools standard of over 1500 clock hours of purely oriental medicine training, my assertion is that chiropractors and medical doctors who wish to practice oriental medicine would have to go through the requisite 1500 hours and pass the national/ state boards, in order to practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 Hi All, as a fourth-year Bachelor degree student in TCM in Beijing, I'd like to bring in a Chinese perspective of TCM education. As for the Chinese, a five-year undergraduate degree in TCM is first of all a medical degree, meaning it aims to train doctors majoring in Traditional /Acupuncture and Tuina/Herbology. The five-year program includes studies in both Western and Chinese Medicine, the ratio being a rough 1:2; however, there's often no clear distinction -for instance, Western perspective of a disease is often introduced as a comparison even for the " pure " TCM classes. First two years of the program are preclinical including most of the basic courses of both aspects of the medicine, followed by more advanced classes and clinical observation in the third and forth year. Fifth year is purely clinical practice in one of the university's affiliated hospitals. If one wants to work as an MD after graduation, an additional one (or more) year of clinical practice and a licence examination are required. Foreigners wishing to attend a Bachelor Degree study together with the Chinese students after the first year. This is not the case in all the TCM universities though. As for the class hours, Western medicine occupies roughly >1000 hrs and TCM >2000. This doesn't include fifth year's 40-week clinical or the home work/case studies/papers of course. For postgraduates, Master's and Doctor's take three years each, making the total length of the studies about 11 years. Most students continue to study and work with an old doctor or an experienced supervisor many years after graduation. TCM and WM are quite integrated in China today. Even if the Chinese model did not work in the West, what could be learned, though, is the understanding of being a medical system of its own, acupuncture being a part of it. Using acupuncture (or herbs, tuina...) succesfully requires deeper understanding of the whole system, just like treating patients with WM requires much more than knowing the names of different pills. In that aspect one would hope there is enough willingness for co- operation between the different branches/aspects of medicine -in the end they're all supposed to aim at the same, that is, to treat and hopefully cure the patient. Regards, Petra Vallisaari Beijing University of baitele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 OK, you're on. Citations, please? Avery On Mon, 30 Oct 2006 08:30:55 -0500, <acudoc11 wrote: > And contrary to what one DC has written...chiropractic definitely had its > roots from TuiNa. > > R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 Thank you for that.......... However, sometimes willingness is not enough with politics and ego being major barriers to the growth and modernisation of the medicine. On 10/30/06, baitele <baitele wrote: > > Hi All, > > as a fourth-year Bachelor degree student in TCM in Beijing, I'd like > to bring in a Chinese perspective of TCM education. > > As for the Chinese, a five-year undergraduate degree in TCM is first > of all a medical degree, meaning it aims to train doctors majoring in > Traditional /Acupuncture and Tuina/Herbology. The > five-year program includes studies in both Western and Chinese > Medicine, the ratio being a rough 1:2; however, there's often no > clear distinction -for instance, Western perspective of a disease is > often introduced as a comparison even for the " pure " TCM classes. > First two years of the program are preclinical including most of the > basic courses of both aspects of the medicine, followed by more > advanced classes and clinical observation in the third and forth > year. Fifth year is purely clinical practice in one of the > university's affiliated hospitals. If one wants to work as an MD > after graduation, an additional one (or more) year of clinical > practice and a licence examination are required. > > Foreigners wishing to attend a Bachelor Degree study together with > the Chinese students after the first year. This is not the case in > all the TCM universities though. > > As for the class hours, Western medicine occupies roughly >1000 hrs > and TCM >2000. This doesn't include fifth year's 40-week clinical or > the home work/case studies/papers of course. > > For postgraduates, Master's and Doctor's take three years each, > making the total length of the studies about 11 years. Most students > continue to study and work with an old doctor or an experienced > supervisor many years after graduation. > > TCM and WM are quite integrated in China today. Even if the Chinese > model did not work in the West, what could be learned, though, is the > understanding of being a medical system of its own, > acupuncture being a part of it. Using acupuncture (or herbs, tuina...) > succesfully requires deeper understanding of the whole system, just > like treating patients with WM requires much more than knowing the > names of different pills. > > In that aspect one would hope there is enough willingness for co- > operation between the different branches/aspects of medicine -in the > end they're all supposed to aim at the same, that is, to treat and > hopefully cure the patient. > > Regards, > > Petra Vallisaari > Beijing University of > baitele <baitele%40> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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