Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Dr. Snow: In the WM disciplines (Allopathy, Chiropractic) you mention, interexaminer reliability is very high for most diagnostic tests or categories. A discussion on this very newsgroup, I believe, revealed that there was almost no interexaminer reliability even when CM professors were the examiners. Which begs the question.. exactly what is taught for 4200 hours? Seems that even after all that school, no reliable knowledge is imparted. Now who's blowing smoke? Guy Porter In a message dated 10/28/2006 7:09:20 A.M. Central Daylight Time, don83407 writes: Please stop blowing smoke. Dr. Snow, DAOM, MSTOM, MPH, L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Just to give credit where credit is due, the Chiropractic program at Whittier, CA is called the Southern California University of Health Sciences/ Los Angeles college of Chiropractic and over 10 trimesters, (3 years and four months), students rack up 4,755 hours. http://www.scuhs.edu/chiropractic/schedule/ Also, interestingly, the same school, the Southern California University of Health Sciences, also serves as a college of Acupuncture and Oriental medicine. Over 9 trimesters (3 years), students accumulate 3,330 hours for a masters of science degree. http://www.scuhs.edu/aom/schedule/ Just as a comparison, another well respected college with a reputation for rigorous acupuncture training, the American College of Traditional Chinese Medicine has a masters degree program of study of 3,065 hours over 13 plus quarters. http://www.actcm.edu/html/curriculum.html Concerning the doctoral program hours at ACTCM, on top of a masters degree in science: " The program consists of 552 didactic hours and 732 clinical hours offered in a four-day weekend format meeting every month for 9 quarters. It concludes with a 252-hour clinical experience that can be completed either in China (PRC) or in the USA. " http://www.actcm.edu/html/DoctoralProgram.html In total, ACTCM's total hours (including the masters and doctoral programs) equal 4,601 hours. This is pretty much standard. Please review my last email for California state and national acupuncture and chiropractic hour requirements. What this shows in the realm of acupuncture education is that there needs to be more consistency along state lines for program hours; CA, FL, NM etc., and my assertion is that nationally, once there are more DAOM's available to teach at acupuncture colleges with doctoral programs in every region, we can institute entry level doctoral programs that are on par with chiropractic and allopathic medical schools hours. Of course, now those with masters degrees can take the doctoral programs available in California, Oregon and Washington and possibly some kind of grandfathering law can be put into place for those who have been practicing for a certain period of time with accumulated CEU and post-secondary education hours. I think this is fair. We should defininitely raise the bar to at least the same level of formal education hours as our colleagues in the chiropractic and allopathic circuits. And along with that, within limits, have an expanded scope of practice ie. herbal point injection and the respect that comes along with being a doctor. Along a similar vein, acupuncture and oriental medicine has sustained itself for over 3000 years, codified over 2100 years ago in the Nei-Jing and survived complete assimilation and annihilation because of an intense reverence for tradition. Along with that, the apprenticeship tradition has been focal. Most of the acupuncture and oriental medicine practitioners that I know have studied with at least one teacher (usually one respected in their field with over 10 yrs of experience) for at least a couple of years, usually during and after their formal education. Most of these practitioners continue to study under the mentorship of a master, even 10 years down the line. When it comes to accounting formal education hours, I think that it is crucial that we attain at least equal status to our counterparts in other medical fields, even in light of the fact that the apprenticeship hours, (slaving away with tuina, moxa, herbs and consultation with our teacher) may never be counted for. With this, I can say that I have deep respect for all health practitioners who have put the time and energy into helping our fellow humans. Maybe idealistically, I hope that there can be cooperation and individuation, in the Jungian sense, between our respective fields and the languages that we traverse by. K. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individuation On 10/27/06, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: > > Here in California's Wittier (?) college of Chiropractic, you get your > DC in 3,200 hours, roughly what our Master of Acupuncture is. That's less > than 4 years. Now our acu schools here in CA are 3200 to 3500 hours and when > you add the hours for the DAOM, that another 1300 hours or so. That makes > the acu doctorate more hours than the chir or the MD. Of course, none of > this includes the required undergrad hours. If you added a BS to the mix, > then you would be talking those kinds of hours. But then, most AOM > practitioners have the Bachelors also. > > The MD degree is around 4200 hours of academic time. This does not include > residency. Residency is not academic time and it is paid time, as in a job. > Please stop blowing smoke. > > Dr. Snow, DAOM, MSTOM, MPH, L.Ac. > > - > Dr. Avery Jenkins > Friday, October 27, 2006 2:02 PM > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Re: acupuncture degrees > > Seems like I touched a nerve. I don't want to set off a flame war; hey, > I'm just on this forum to contribute and learn like everybody else. But I > do want to clear up a couple of misconceptions, at least with regard to > practice in the U.S. > > Like it or not, the MD and DC degrees are significantly more extensive > than those required for acupuncture, in fact, over twice as long. Between > 4500 and 5000 hours are required for MD or DC, which are terminal degrees > comparable to the PhD, compared to the 1900 hours necessary for the > master's level acupuncture degrees. I'm sure the OMD is more extensive > than the master's degrees, perhaps someone can provide the details. The > additional education does make us better equipped to adapt to new > strategies, due to a broader base in the fundamentals. And, as I said, > particularly in the case of the DC, the holistic underpinnings of the > education make it easier to absorb another holistic approach. For example, > > as a chiropractic student, I also had classes in the use of homeopathy, > which some DCs use extensively in their practices as well, but which, like > > TCM, is also a discipline with its own arcana. At the risk of repeating > myself ad nauseum, the education is as much about learning *how* to think > as it is accumulating data. > > I think an apt practical analogy for the relationship between the > acupuncturist/DC and L.Ac. might be the relationship between psychologist > and social worker. Both provide similar, overlapping services. The higher > degree alone is no assurance of better clinical excellence. When what I > need a good therapist for a patient, I frequently turn to a licensed > social worker. When I need a broader-scope approach requiring enhanced > diagnostic acumen, or a specialized skillset (e.g. neuropsychology), I > will refer to a psychologist. > > Second, chiropractic did not " originate from tui-na, " as you suggest. It > is certainly true that most cultures, both western and eastern have > longstanding traditions of spinal and other joint manipulation, and it > would be surprising if a system as comprehensive as TCM lacked such a > discipline. However, DD Palmer's concept of " innate intelligence, " while > on the surface similar to the idea of Qi, actually has far greater > similarities to western vitalism than it does to the eastern dialectic. > Technique-wise, tui na is probably actually closer to osteopathic > manipulation than it is to the HVLA of chiropractic. > > Frankly, I say if your scope of practice permits the use of tui-na, go for > > it! Joint manipulation is powerful medicine, regardless of what you call > it. > > The who-is-better bickering is, from my point of view, reflective of an > underlying belief in scarcity. We both have different and overlapping > skillsets, and both have tremendous value to our patients individually and > > to society at large. There's so many people that need us, and don't even > know it yet! I'm on this list to enjoy with, contribute to, and learn from > > those with whom I have so much in common. I hope that I've arrived on this > > path via a different route than yours does not interfere with our capacity > > to learn from one another. > > Avery L. Jenkins, DC, FIAMA, DACBN > Chiropractic Physician > Fellow, International Academy of Medical Acupuncturists > Diplomate, American Clinical Board of Nutrition > www.docaltmed.com > > On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:38:28 -0400, <acudoc11 <acudoc11%40aol.com>> > wrote: > > > Then it should be sufficient for an Acupuncture Physician (non MD - non > > DC) > > to go the distance of the week-end warrior by adding an additional > > 100-300 > > hours and hit the streets immediately with sufficient initial adequacy > > to use > > chiropractic? > > Is it time to have courses in Acu-practic? > > Oh...wait a minute.....APs don't really need any additional education or > > clinical experience as that which is called chiropractic originated > > from Tui-Na > > and that's a basic TCM course. > > Sounds like a plan!!!! > > Richard > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > necessary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Dr. Avery, I have to disagree with you entirely. And I do not believe that people's reactions here are coming from a place of scaricity--some anger perhaps, but not scarcity. Let's put this into perspective: 300 hours of training is less than the BARE MINIMUM needed to know very very basic TCM: very basic TCM includes diagnosis, points and meridian theory, and the often neglected subject of needling techniques. When I was at ACTCM, we got: 100 hours points, 220 hours acupuncture needling/moxa techniques, 120 hours fundamentals, Qi Gong 60 hours, give or take. For 500 hour total, and again, this is bare minimum. And you have to have an intro to qi gong, as this IS a spiritual/energy medicine, and your qi effects the qi of those around you. A basic intro to these theories is more than important. We get way more training than this (I think 3000 hours, 4 years?), and in my education, both in acup and herbs. Now, in my experience, the way you truly begin to embody the medicine is not just through going out on your own and applying it on patients. Embodiment of the medicine comes through having clinical SUPERVISION of an expert/master who already embodies the medicine, and can show you that the way as you apply the medicine....the expert/master keeps you on track so you don't stray too much from the path. Its not just about digesting the books and class notes and then applying it yourself. If we want to reduce the medicine to find a point, stick a needle in it, then yes, by all means, 500 hours (not 300) can get you in the door. But the medicine is so much more than this, and needling/moxa is so much more than this. After 4 years of clinical supervision/observation in needling tech and moxa, it is hard to fully embody the intricacies of needling. And without this guidance in the medicine, learning how you can use one point in 20 different ways is not possible. This is why historically the medicine was passed on generation to generation, through a observation/supervision type model. My opinion........radiya Chinese Medicine , " Dr. Avery Jenkins " <docaltmed wrote: > > Seems like I touched a nerve. I don't want to set off a flame war; hey, > I'm just on this forum to contribute and learn like everybody else. But I > do want to clear up a couple of misconceptions, at least with regard to > practice in the U.S. > > Like it or not, the MD and DC degrees are significantly more extensive > than those required for acupuncture, in fact, over twice as long. Between > 4500 and 5000 hours are required for MD or DC, which are terminal degrees > comparable to the PhD, compared to the 1900 hours necessary for the > master's level acupuncture degrees. I'm sure the OMD is more extensive > than the master's degrees, perhaps someone can provide the details. The > additional education does make us better equipped to adapt to new > strategies, due to a broader base in the fundamentals. And, as I said, > particularly in the case of the DC, the holistic underpinnings of the > education make it easier to absorb another holistic approach. For example, > as a chiropractic student, I also had classes in the use of homeopathy, > which some DCs use extensively in their practices as well, but which, like > TCM, is also a discipline with its own arcana. At the risk of repeating > myself ad nauseum, the education is as much about learning *how* to think > as it is accumulating data. > > I think an apt practical analogy for the relationship between the > acupuncturist/DC and L.Ac. might be the relationship between psychologist > and social worker. Both provide similar, overlapping services. The higher > degree alone is no assurance of better clinical excellence. When what I > need a good therapist for a patient, I frequently turn to a licensed > social worker. When I need a broader-scope approach requiring enhanced > diagnostic acumen, or a specialized skillset (e.g. neuropsychology), I > will refer to a psychologist. > > Second, chiropractic did not " originate from tui-na, " as you suggest. It > is certainly true that most cultures, both western and eastern have > longstanding traditions of spinal and other joint manipulation, and it > would be surprising if a system as comprehensive as TCM lacked such a > discipline. However, DD Palmer's concept of " innate intelligence, " while > on the surface similar to the idea of Qi, actually has far greater > similarities to western vitalism than it does to the eastern dialectic. > Technique-wise, tui na is probably actually closer to osteopathic > manipulation than it is to the HVLA of chiropractic. > > Frankly, I say if your scope of practice permits the use of tui- na, go for > it! Joint manipulation is powerful medicine, regardless of what you call > it. > > The who-is-better bickering is, from my point of view, reflective of an > underlying belief in scarcity. We both have different and overlapping > skillsets, and both have tremendous value to our patients individually and > to society at large. There's so many people that need us, and don't even > know it yet! I'm on this list to enjoy with, contribute to, and learn from > those with whom I have so much in common. I hope that I've arrived on this > path via a different route than yours does not interfere with our capacity > to learn from one another. > > > Avery L. Jenkins, DC, FIAMA, DACBN > Chiropractic Physician > Fellow, International Academy of Medical Acupuncturists > Diplomate, American Clinical Board of Nutrition > www.docaltmed.com > > > > On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:38:28 -0400, <acudoc11 wrote: > > > Then it should be sufficient for an Acupuncture Physician (non MD - non > > DC) > > to go the distance of the week-end warrior by adding an additional > > 100-300 > > hours and hit the streets immediately with sufficient initial adequacy > > to use > > chiropractic? > > Is it time to have courses in Acu-practic? > > Oh...wait a minute.....APs don't really need any additional education or > > clinical experience as that which is called chiropractic originated > > from Tui-Na > > and that's a basic TCM course. > > Sounds like a plan!!!! > > Richard > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Greetings all, I am new to this forum. I am an OM practitioner in Tucson. I have enjoyed reading the postings. Thank you. Since we are on the topic of degrees, I am curious about all the DOM and OMD degrees flying around. I do recall, years back, that some of the people I know who have OMDs only went to school for maybe 2 years and that degree was not a degree at all but a license, much like the designation AP or L.Ac. but it has been let's say, manipulated to catapult the holder to let's say... a higher medical position. Is this correct? I am not offended by all this but I am aware (and would like to be better informed on this topic). Many of my patients ask me about this. I worked very hard for a Ph.D. (a 12 year program! ...average time it takes nationwide) and when I see patients confused, well, I gotta wonder. Any comments? Any enlightenment? please... Diane Notarianni, Ph.D. L.Ac. One World Medicine Tucson, AZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2006 Report Share Posted October 29, 2006 Judy, you're right, there may not be masters degree programs with only 1900 hours of acupuncture training, however there are accredited acupuncture programs which provide around 2000 hours to prepare students to sit for the boards. For instance, the diplomate of acupuncture program at the Jung Tao school of acupuncture is a 2160 hour program. Herbs are not studied at this school and a masters in science is not rewarded either. However, graduates can sit for the boards, because they meet the minimum hours - 1725 that the nccaom requires to sit for the national boards in acupuncture. http://www.nccaom.org/certify.html However, graduates of this school in North Carolina may have to take extra hours if they plan on practicing in another state, such as Florida, depending on each state's laws. Again, in the state of California, 3000 hours education is mandated to sit for the CA state boards. Going back to the original question of allowing 300 or less hour courses board certify chiropractors and mds, I think that if a poll was taken amongst licensed acupuncturists, 9 out of 10 would probably give a thumbs down. We have already seen this direction with the messages on this group site. So the question is : hypothetically how many acupuncture hours would doctors of chiropractic medicine or allopathic medicine need to have, before they could call themselves an acupuncturist. Some people believe that they should go through an entire course at an accredited college. I, for one, do not think that would be necessary. Researching the hours at the Southern Cal. Univ. of Health Sciences Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine program, I counted 1935 purely acupuncture and Chinese herbal hours out of 3,330 hours for the masters of science program. (In other words, the rest of the class description hours may overlap at a chiropractic or allopathic school). If you delete 345 hours for the herbal classes, that leaves 1590acupuncture-only didactic and clinical hours. At least in the state of California, I think this could be a template for policy-makers to look at, in order to standardize the number of formal hours required by a doctor of chiropractic or allopathic medicine etc. to sit for the boards. If and only if the California state board is passed, could an individual be able to practice in CA. As far as outside of California, Florida, New Mexico and some other states, the number of formal education hours required may be less. If we go by the first example of the Jung Tao school, 1620 hours out of 2160 clock hours consist of Oriental Medicine/ Acupuncture classes/ clinic only. 450 hours constitute western bio-medicine/pathology and 90 hours are dedicated to practice management. Again, over 1500 acupuncture-only hours have been constructed to prepare the student for a profession as an acupuncturist. In response to Richard's infomation about regulations against calling oneself an acupuncturist without being an A.P. in Florida, does anyone know about California's rules on the same issue? Also, the discussion that Z. Rosenberg brings up about herbal training hours vs. acupuncture-only and the qualifications and regulations that could entail with this issue is intriguing. Finally, I too would like to know this differences in title from OMD, DOM, AP, LAc, Dipl.Ac. and D.A.O.M. Hopefully, there can be some more clarity on these designations. Thank you, K. On 10/28/06, Judy Lemieux L.Ac. <jsaxe wrote: > > > Posted by: " Dr. Avery Jenkins " docaltmed<docaltmed%40sbcglobal.net>mirapei2004 > > Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:01 pm (PDT) > > > > Like it or not, the MD and DC degrees are significantly more extensive > > than those required for acupuncture, in fact, over twice as long. > > Between > > 4500 and 5000 hours are required for MD or DC, which are terminal > > degrees > > comparable to the PhD, compared to the 1900 hours necessary for the > > master's level acupuncture degrees. > > I strongly disagree with this statement. > I don't know of any master's degree program in the US that is only > 1900 hours. The accreditation commission requires significantly more > than that to accredit a school. Most programs are approximately 3000 > hours (or more), taking 3 to 4 years of rigorous full time graduate > study to complete. Internships are strictly supervised. > Comprehensive national board exams are long, expensive and > difficult. Most students carry huge student loan debt upon > completion. I don't know of any other master's level degree that > takes this much time, money or effort to complete. To belittle the > effort that most of us on this list have put toward our professional > degree is, needless to say, somewhat insulting. > > 300 hours of acupuncture training is not enough to make anyone > proficient in Asian medicine, just as 300 hours of chiropractic > training, or western medical training will not make us proficient to > 'do chiropractic' or to 'do western medicine'. I know a number of > DCs who have gone through the entire TCM masters program and they > would whole-heartedly agree. > > -judy > -- > Judy Lemieux, M.S., L.Ac. > In Denver & Centennial, Colorado > (303) 964-1996 > http://www.QingTingAcupuncture.com > > Acupuncture Association of Colorado > President > http://www.acucol.com > > > -- 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the understanding of a problem.' Jiddu Krishnamurti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2006 Report Share Posted October 29, 2006 Diane, I am not aware of any DOM degrees but recall the OMD's (both a degree and a license designation in NM). Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ________________________________ > Chinese Medicine > Diane > Sat, 28 Oct 2006 21:02:51 +0000 > Acupuncture degrees > > Greetings all, > I am new to this forum. I am an OM practitioner in Tucson. I have > enjoyed reading the postings. Thank you. > Since we are on the topic of degrees, I am curious about all the DOM > and OMD degrees flying around. I do recall, years back, that some of > the people I know who have OMDs only went to school for maybe 2 > years and that degree was not a degree at all but a license, much > like the designation AP or L.Ac. but it has been let's say, > manipulated to catapult the holder to let's say... a higher medical > position. Is this correct? > I am not offended by all this but I am aware (and would like to be > better informed on this topic). Many of my patients ask me about > this. I worked very hard for a Ph.D. (a 12 year program! ...average > time it takes nationwide) and when I see patients confused, well, I > gotta wonder. > Any comments? Any enlightenment? please... > Diane Notarianni, Ph.D. L.Ac. > One World Medicine > Tucson, AZ > _______________ Call friends with PC-to-PC calling -- FREE http://get.live.com/messenger/overview Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2006 Report Share Posted October 29, 2006 Because of the recent newness of the Victorian registration board, and the relative influence of the AMA (Thats Australian Medical Association, not American) and the chiro board. Chiros, (osteos), doctors and vets are exempted from the chinese medicine act (which is mostly just concerned with protection of title, if you arent registered, you can perform acupuncture, as long as you dont say thats what you do.) as long as they are registered with their respective boards. Recently, I believe the Victorian Chin Med board spoke to their Canadian counterparts concerning two issues: 1) Use of the term doctor by TCM professionals and 2) Doctors calling themselves acupuncturists. According to the registration board newsletter, the Canadian government has interestingly enough gone with the exactly opposite approach to Australia, which is to prohibit the use of the title " Dr " by non-medical professions and to disallow doctors and chiros to use the title acupuncturist. Here we are tacitly encouraged to use the term doctor (within legal bounds, and avoiding " holding forth " as a medical professional) but the title acupuncturist is, as mentioned previously, open to other registered health care professions. As far as I know there is no OMD or other doctorate program here in Australia, there are postgrad honours and PhD programs though. (By research, not coursework.) So far as I know, there is no postgrad " Masters of Chiropractic " available for acupuncturists or doctors to do, here. I think there would be marked resistance to the very idea! Although there are Masters of Acupuncture and Masters of Herbalism available. (I think they are about 2 years in length, but only have attendance " intensives " and the rest is by distance learning. There are a set number of clinical observation and experience hours, last time I checked it was about 300 hours, but this may have changed. Its a lot less than the almost 2000 hours all up I had to do, in Australia and China, anyway.) In some states of Australia, it is also against the law to do cervical spine or cranial manipulations unless you are a doctor, registered chiro or not. Regards, Lea. Chinese Medicine , acudoc11 wrote: > > > Action speaks louder than empty rhetoric. > > It is now illegal in Florida for a DC or an MD to call themselves > acupuncturist (medical acupuncturist) or anything similar. The DCs are prohibited from > calling themselves Certified Acupuncturists. Even those who banter around the > week-end-warrior 100 hr board certifications are now being cautioned by the > Department of Health. > > A DC who has a certification is only allowed to say that they USE > acupuncture and they had better make sure they inform the public in their > advertisements that they have NO license in acupuncture unless of course they completed > the full course of study and maintain a dual licensure. In lieu of the dual > licensure (if they mention acupuncture in their ads) the DC must state that they > are ONLY a Chiropractor. > > The community here in Florida is tired of this kind of mis-advertising and > defrauding of the public. The state has finally gotten serious about it. > Violate it and the DC or the MD will be hauled before their respective boards under > the Dept of Health for disciplinary action coupled with stiff fines and > substantial investigative fees. > > What DCs administer with the 100 hrs should be appropriately called > Chiro-Puncture whatever that might be. And what the MDs do without any training > should be called Medi-Puncture....but definitely neither are acupuncture. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2006 Report Share Posted October 29, 2006 DOM is the title now given in New Mexico once you pass their state exam. Diane Notarianni <Diane wrote: Greetings all, I am new to this forum. I am an OM practitioner in Tucson. I have enjoyed reading the postings. Thank you. Since we are on the topic of degrees, I am curious about all the DOM and OMD degrees flying around. I do recall, years back, that some of the people I know who have OMDs only went to school for maybe 2 years and that degree was not a degree at all but a license, much like the designation AP or L.Ac. but it has been let's say, manipulated to catapult the holder to let's say... a higher medical position. Is this correct? I am not offended by all this but I am aware (and would like to be better informed on this topic). Many of my patients ask me about this. I worked very hard for a Ph.D. (a 12 year program! ...average time it takes nationwide) and when I see patients confused, well, I gotta wonder. Any comments? Any enlightenment? please... Diane Notarianni, Ph.D. L.Ac. One World Medicine Tucson, AZ Have A Great Day! Cheryl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2006 Report Share Posted October 29, 2006 I would like to add comment to the below: " In response to Richard's infomation about regulations against calling oneself an acupuncturist without being an A.P. in Florida, does anyone know about California's rules on the same issue? " CA does reserve the right for the title to be used exclusively by the LAc community (last time I checked) and any other usage of title was a violation of the law. " Finally, I too would like to know this differences in title from OMD, DOM, AP, LAc, Dipl.Ac. and D.A.O.M. " OMD was a designation used by several CA schools back in the 80's (1980's) and was forced out by ACAOM regulatory standards. All programs from then on were required to create a master's degree/ diploma but some have created a certificate course. This designation was also used in NM as per their acupuncture licensure. Apparently, they have changed this and now use DOM. DOM appears to be the new NM designation and is also being used by one NOMAA recognized school for an entry level doctorate, South Baylo Univ. AP is used in FL for their acupuncture designation. LAc is the most common technical designation. Dipl Ac is the NCCAOM designation for one who passes the written and practical parts of their certification exam. This is a voluntary exam unless specified by the state as a part of its licensing process. Some states, like MN, will mandate that the LAc also maintain membership in this organization. Our state association has looked at dropping this from the law. DAOM is the new post-graduate clinical doctorate degree being offerred only by westcoast programs (CA, WA and OR). This is one of the first steps to getting an entry-level doctorate in place. Hope this helps. Please add other info or correct what is incorrect. Thanks Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ________________________________ > Chinese Medicine > johnkokko > Sat, 28 Oct 2006 18:16:28 -0700 > Re: Re: acupuncture degrees > > Judy, you're right, there may not be masters degree programs with only 1900 > hours of acupuncture training, however there are accredited acupuncture > programs which provide around 2000 hours to prepare students to sit for the > boards. > For instance, the diplomate of acupuncture program at the Jung Tao school of > acupuncture is a 2160 hour program. Herbs are not studied at this school > and a masters in science is not rewarded either. > However, graduates can sit for the boards, because they meet the minimum > hours - 1725 > that the nccaom requires to sit for the national boards in acupuncture. > http://www.nccaom.org/certify.html > However, graduates of this school in North Carolina may have to take extra > hours if they plan on practicing in another state, such as Florida, > depending on each state's laws. > Again, in the state of California, 3000 hours education is mandated to sit > for the CA state boards. > Going back to the original question of allowing 300 or less hour courses > board certify chiropractors and mds, I think that if a poll was taken > amongst licensed acupuncturists, 9 out of 10 would probably give a thumbs > down. We have already seen this direction with the messages on this group > site. > So the question is : hypothetically how many acupuncture hours would doctors > of chiropractic medicine or allopathic medicine need to have, before they > could call themselves an acupuncturist. > Some people believe that they should go through an entire course at an > accredited college. > I, for one, do not think that would be necessary. Researching the hours at > the Southern Cal. Univ. of Health Sciences Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine > program, I counted 1935 purely acupuncture and Chinese herbal hours out of > 3,330 hours for the masters of science program. (In other words, the rest > of the class description hours may overlap at a chiropractic or allopathic > school). If you delete 345 hours for the herbal classes, that leaves > 1590acupuncture-only didactic and clinical hours. > At least in the state of California, I think this could be a template for > policy-makers to look at, in order to standardize the number of formal hours > required by a doctor of chiropractic or allopathic medicine etc. to sit for > the boards. If and only if the California state board is passed, could an > individual be able to practice in CA. > As far as outside of California, Florida, New Mexico and some other states, > the number of formal education hours required may be less. If we go by the > first example of the Jung Tao school, 1620 hours out of 2160 clock hours > consist of Oriental Medicine/ Acupuncture classes/ clinic only. 450 hours > constitute western bio-medicine/pathology and 90 hours are dedicated to > practice management. > Again, over 1500 acupuncture-only hours have been constructed to prepare the > student for a profession as an acupuncturist. > In response to Richard's infomation about regulations against calling > oneself an acupuncturist without being an A.P. in Florida, does anyone know > about California's rules on the same issue? > Also, the discussion that Z. Rosenberg brings up about herbal training hours > vs. acupuncture-only and the qualifications and regulations that could > entail with this issue is intriguing. > Finally, I too would like to know this differences in title from OMD, DOM, > AP, LAc, Dipl.Ac. and D.A.O.M. > Hopefully, there can be some more clarity on these designations. > Thank you, K. > On 10/28/06, Judy Lemieux L.Ac. <jsaxe<jsaxe> wrote: > > > > > Posted by: " Dr. Avery Jenkins " docaltmed<docaltmed<docaltmed%40sbcglobal.ne\ t>mirapei2004 > > > Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:01 pm (PDT) > > > > > > Like it or not, the MD and DC degrees are significantly more extensive > > > than those required for acupuncture, in fact, over twice as long. > > > Between > > > 4500 and 5000 hours are required for MD or DC, which are terminal > > > degrees > > > comparable to the PhD, compared to the 1900 hours necessary for the > > > master's level acupuncture degrees. > > > > I strongly disagree with this statement. > > I don't know of any master's degree program in the US that is only > > 1900 hours. The accreditation commission requires significantly more > > than that to accredit a school. Most programs are approximately 3000 > > hours (or more), taking 3 to 4 years of rigorous full time graduate > > study to complete. Internships are strictly supervised. > > Comprehensive national board exams are long, expensive and > > difficult. Most students carry huge student loan debt upon > > completion. I don't know of any other master's level degree that > > takes this much time, money or effort to complete. To belittle the > > effort that most of us on this list have put toward our professional > > degree is, needless to say, somewhat insulting. > > > > 300 hours of acupuncture training is not enough to make anyone > > proficient in Asian medicine, just as 300 hours of chiropractic > > training, or western medical training will not make us proficient to > > 'do chiropractic' or to 'do western medicine'. I know a number of > > DCs who have gone through the entire TCM masters program and they > > would whole-heartedly agree. > > > > -judy > > -- > > Judy Lemieux, M.S., L.Ac. > > In Denver & Centennial, Colorado > > (303) 964-1996 > > http://www.QingTingAcupuncture.com > > > > Acupuncture Association of Colorado > > President > > http://www.acucol.com > > > > > > > -- > 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the understanding of > a problem.' > Jiddu Krishnamurti > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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