Guest guest Posted October 26, 2006 Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 Would you please inform me all official degrees of acupuncture and respective abbreviations in most countries (esp. acupuncture degrees for 6-month acupuncture training courses for MD doctors). Best regards, Mehdi Hashemi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2006 Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 You didn't state your reason(s) for wanting this info, but I'll assume you are a prospective student rather than an insurance, school, or government rep. With due respect for any medical professionals, my view (some 25 years after beginning study of acupuncture) is that a 6-month or 300 hour course is a GYFW - Get Yer Feet Wet degree. Even with, or maybe especially if one already has strong medical knowledge, it simply takes a long time for a mature perception to gel. The problem with this is that in the meanwhile many practitioners turn their patients into pincushions, often with ridiculously elaborate constructs justifying point selection. Instead of being concerned with titles and degrees, my recomendation to anyone starting out, (or even after several years), is to focus on developing comprehensive perception and finding the most subtle way to favorably influence the patient in their own process - BEFORE considering needling or administering herbs / drugs / supplements. And a supposedly market-able official degree / title that represents a lot of information in a short period of time, will typically foster the extreme opposite of a conservative, reserved approach. (Officially, I'm an OMD, LAc. Unofficially, I joke that it is spelled q-u-a-c-k q-u-a-c-k) >>Would you please inform me all official degrees of acupuncture and respective abbreviations in most countries (esp. acupuncture degrees for 6-month acupuncture training courses for MD doctors).<< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2006 Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 An acupuncture degree in 6 months!! I hope not. Attilio Chinese Medicine , Gitavarz Tech Corp <gitavarz wrote: > > Would you please inform me all official degrees of acupuncture and respective abbreviations in most countries (esp. acupuncture degrees for 6-month acupuncture training courses for MD doctors). > > Best regards, > Mehdi Hashemi > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2006 Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 Unfortunately, there are 300 hour board certified (not nccaom) courses in acupuncture for chiropractors and medical doctors. Unless, one has the theory and fundamentals down, a tcm diagnosis can not be reached. Theory, Fundamentals and Diagnosis alone is over 300 didactic hours at any accredited school. If one only studies acupuncture points, but without acupuncture technique and clinical training under the tutelage of an experienced physician, then harm can be done to the patient. Hopefully, nobody is just experimenting on their patients. That's why any serious student of acupuncture should attend an accredited school and prove at least academic competence for acupuncture by passing the nccaom boards. However, if you are an md or chiropractor, there is the Joseph Helms school for medical acupuncture. I've seen acupuncturists use nutraceuticals, mds prescribing chinese herbs and chiropractors doing acupuncture. My personal opinion is that we should all stick to what we are qualified to do. Acupuncturists would lose their license doing spinal manipulations, even after a six month course, which is obviously not enough time to practice adjustments, even with the science requirements already accomplished. So, another question is how many hours would be enough to allow doctors of medicine and chiropractic to practice acupuncture ethically speaking? My humble estimate is 3000 minus the western science hours. So 2000 would be in the ball park. Just my 2 cents, J. K. On 10/26/06, Gitavarz Tech Corp <gitavarz wrote: > > Would you please inform me all official degrees of acupuncture and > respective abbreviations in most countries (esp. acupuncture degrees for > 6-month acupuncture training courses for MD doctors). > > Best regards, > Mehdi Hashemi > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > necessary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Then it should be sufficient for an Acupuncture Physician (non MD - non DC) to go the distance of the week-end warrior by adding an additional 100-300 hours and hit the streets immediately with sufficient initial adequacy to use chiropractic? Is it time to have courses in Acu-practic? Oh...wait a minute.....APs don't really need any additional education or clinical experience as that which is called chiropractic originated from Tui-Na and that's a basic TCM course. Sounds like a plan!!!! Richard In a message dated 10/27/06 11:27:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, docaltmed writes: John, I'm going to respectfully disagree. If one already is a doctor in alternative medicine, as is a chiropractor, one is already trained to think diagnostically in a holistic matrix that is not dissimilar from that of TCM. It is really not as much what you know as much as it is learning how to think in a certain way. Once you have done that, you can more rapidly assimilate another construct. As Korzybski said, it is important not to confuse the map with the territory, and TCM is just another map. If you're a good map-reader, you can read any map. For example, I didn't need to be re-taught how to conduct a diagnostic interview. What I needed to learn is what TCM requires me to pay attention to. Similarly with examination skills. Application is somewhat easier, in part do to the advanced palpatory skills and anatomic knowledge that a chiropractor possesses. I agree with you that 300 hours is not enough to become a skilled acupuncturist, just as the 7,500 hours of post-secondary education were not enough to make me a skilled chiropractic physician. Both require on-the-ground experience, and that is only gained through time. But the 300 hours on top of what I already knew and had experienced was sufficient for initial adequacy, which is the point of a professional education. Avery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 It all depends on the strength of your state laws and rules. Here is one small section for Florida Acupuncture/OM Laws & Rules. In Florida will also won the battle for Acu-Point Injection Therapy. Oriental massage includes traditional Chinese and modern oriental medical techniques which shall include: manual and mechanical stimulation of points, meridians, channels, collaterals, and ah-shi points; all forms of oriental bodywork including acupressure, amma, anmo, guasha, hara, niusha, reiki, reflexology, shiatsu, tuina, traction and counter traction, vibration, and other neuro-muscular, physical and physio-therapeutic techniques used in acupuncture and oriental medicine for the promotion, maintenance, and restoration of health and the prevention of disease. Specific Authority 457.104 FS., Section 62, Chapter 2000-318, Laws of Florida. There are lots of false stories being told out there....so check out everything especially when being told by another health care provider. Richard In a message dated 10/27/06 12:06:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, listserve writes: A chiro told me that Wisconsin allows manipulations of some sort in their Acu scope. Anyone know anything about that? -Tim Sharpe L.Ac. Thursday, October 26, 2006 6:30 PM Acupuncturists would lose their license doing spinal manipulations, even after a six month course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Well: Attilio, you have made me burst into laughter so early in the morning. Not to insult anyone, but when I think of all the time and energy that went into just getting the degree, and then there is so much to learn even after that. Also, thanks jreidomd for your response. I don't think I could have explained such a complicated subject so concisely. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " " <attiliodalberto > An acupuncture degree in 6 months!! I hope not. > > Attilio > > Chinese Medicine , Gitavarz Tech > Corp <gitavarz wrote: > > > > Would you please inform me all official degrees of acupuncture and > respective abbreviations in most countries (esp. acupuncture degrees > for 6-month acupuncture training courses for MD doctors). > > > > Best regards, > > Mehdi Hashemi > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 John, I'm going to respectfully disagree. If one already is a doctor in alternative medicine, as is a chiropractor, one is already trained to think diagnostically in a holistic matrix that is not dissimilar from that of TCM. It is really not as much what you know as much as it is learning how to think in a certain way. Once you have done that, you can more rapidly assimilate another construct. As Korzybski said, it is important not to confuse the map with the territory, and TCM is just another map. If you're a good map-reader, you can read any map. For example, I didn't need to be re-taught how to conduct a diagnostic interview. What I needed to learn is what TCM requires me to pay attention to. Similarly with examination skills. Application is somewhat easier, in part do to the advanced palpatory skills and anatomic knowledge that a chiropractor possesses. I agree with you that 300 hours is not enough to become a skilled acupuncturist, just as the 7,500 hours of post-secondary education were not enough to make me a skilled chiropractic physician. Both require on-the-ground experience, and that is only gained through time. But the 300 hours on top of what I already knew and had experienced was sufficient for initial adequacy, which is the point of a professional education. Avery On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:29:50 -0400, <johnkokko wrote: > Unfortunately, there are 300 hour board certified (not nccaom) courses in > acupuncture for chiropractors and medical doctors. Unless, one has the > theory and fundamentals down, a tcm diagnosis can not be reached. > Theory, > Fundamentals and Diagnosis alone is over 300 didactic hours at any > accredited school. If one only studies acupuncture points, but without > acupuncture technique and clinical training under the tutelage of an > experienced physician, then harm can be done to the patient. Hopefully, > nobody is just experimenting on their patients. That's why any serious > student of acupuncture should attend an accredited school and prove at > least > academic competence for acupuncture by passing the nccaom boards. > > However, if you are an md or chiropractor, there is the Joseph Helms > school > for medical acupuncture. I've seen acupuncturists use nutraceuticals, > mds > prescribing chinese herbs and chiropractors doing acupuncture. My > personal > opinion is that we should all stick to what we are qualified to do. > Acupuncturists would lose their license doing spinal manipulations, even > after a six month course, which is obviously not enough time to practice > adjustments, even with the science requirements already accomplished. > > So, another question is how many hours would be enough to allow doctors > of > medicine and chiropractic to practice acupuncture ethically speaking? > > My humble estimate is 3000 minus the western science hours. So 2000 > would > be in the ball park. > > Just my 2 cents, J. K. > > On 10/26/06, Gitavarz Tech Corp <gitavarz wrote: >> >> Would you please inform me all official degrees of acupuncture and >> respective abbreviations in most countries (esp. acupuncture degrees for >> 6-month acupuncture training courses for MD doctors). >> >> Best regards, >> Mehdi Hashemi >> >> >> >> >> >> Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at >> Times >> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com >> >> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, >> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 >> >> >> and >> adjust >> accordingly. >> >> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the >> group >> requires prior permission from the author. >> >> Please consider the environment and only print this message if >> absolutely >> necessary. >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 A chiro told me that Wisconsin allows manipulations of some sort in their Acu scope. Anyone know anything about that? -Tim Sharpe L.Ac. Thursday, October 26, 2006 6:30 PM Acupuncturists would lose their license doing spinal manipulations, even after a six month course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 I've always maintained that having an MD (with their " version " of acupuncture training) doing acupuncture is like having an electrician do the plumbing in a house. Western medicine has so little " overlap " with Asian medicine. _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Attilio D'Alberto Friday, October 27, 2006 8:37 AM Chinese Medicine RE: acupuncture degrees Even with any previous education, no matter what discipline or skin, to begin practice acupuncture properly you should undergo a minimum of 18 months full time training. That's taking into account all the western medicine training previously undertaken in a former course. If you don't even have that, then forget it. And don't forget that 18 months full time training is just a firm foundation block for a life times of work, study and observation. Kind regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM Editor Times +44 (0) 1189 612512 enquiries@chineseme <enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com> dicinetimes.com www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40> Chinese_Medicine [Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40> Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of Dr. Avery Jenkins 27 October 2006 15:54 Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40> Chinese_Medicine Re: acupuncture degrees John, I'm going to respectfully disagree. If one already is a doctor in alternative medicine, as is a chiropractor, one is already trained to think diagnostically in a holistic matrix that is not dissimilar from that of TCM. It is really not as much what you know as much as it is learning how to think in a certain way. Once you have done that, you can more rapidly assimilate another construct. As Korzybski said, it is important not to confuse the map with the territory, and TCM is just another map. If you're a good map-reader, you can read any map. For example, I didn't need to be re-taught how to conduct a diagnostic interview. What I needed to learn is what TCM requires me to pay attention to. Similarly with examination skills. Application is somewhat easier, in part do to the advanced palpatory skills and anatomic knowledge that a chiropractor possesses. I agree with you that 300 hours is not enough to become a skilled acupuncturist, just as the 7,500 hours of post-secondary education were not enough to make me a skilled chiropractic physician. Both require on-the-ground experience, and that is only gained through time. But the 300 hours on top of what I already knew and had experienced was sufficient for initial adequacy, which is the point of a professional education. Avery On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:29:50 -0400, <johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) <johnkokko%40gmail.com> com> wrote: > Unfortunately, there are 300 hour board certified (not nccaom) courses > in acupuncture for chiropractors and medical doctors. Unless, one has the > theory and fundamentals down, a tcm diagnosis can not be reached. > Theory, > Fundamentals and Diagnosis alone is over 300 didactic hours at any > accredited school. If one only studies acupuncture points, but > without acupuncture technique and clinical training under the tutelage > of an experienced physician, then harm can be done to the patient. > Hopefully, nobody is just experimenting on their patients. That's why > any serious student of acupuncture should attend an accredited school and prove at > least > academic competence for acupuncture by passing the nccaom boards. > > However, if you are an md or chiropractor, there is the Joseph Helms > school > for medical acupuncture. I've seen acupuncturists use nutraceuticals, > mds > prescribing chinese herbs and chiropractors doing acupuncture. My > personal > opinion is that we should all stick to what we are qualified to do. > Acupuncturists would lose their license doing spinal manipulations, even > after a six month course, which is obviously not enough time to practice > adjustments, even with the science requirements already accomplished. > > So, another question is how many hours would be enough to allow > doctors > of > medicine and chiropractic to practice acupuncture ethically speaking? > > My humble estimate is 3000 minus the western science hours. So 2000 > would > be in the ball park. > > Just my 2 cents, J. K. > > On 10/26/06, Gitavarz Tech Corp <gitavarz (AT) (DOT) <gitavarz%40> com> wrote: >> >> Would you please inform me all official degrees of acupuncture and >> respective abbreviations in most countries (esp. acupuncture degrees >> for 6-month acupuncture training courses for MD doctors). >> >> Best regards, >> Mehdi Hashemi >> >> >> >> >> >> Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at >> Times >> http://www.chinesem <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com> edicinetimes.com >> >> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, >> http://toolbar. <http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145> thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 >> >> >> http://groups. <> and >> adjust >> accordingly. >> >> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the >> group >> requires prior permission from the author. >> >> Please consider the environment and only print this message if >> absolutely >> necessary. >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Your answer is precisely why " weekend crash courses " are no way for MDs and such to learn to be able to practice acupuncture correctly. There is a reason why the TCM schools in China where acupuncture oriented require western medicine graduates (aka, MDs) to take additional YEARS of intense TCM training before being allowed to practice TCM. 300 hours?? You barely will even know the effects of all the acupuncture points, and forget about all the different manipulations, etc. And you won't even have started to touch upon TCM diagnosis, which goes WAY BEYOND just palpation and logical disseminations! --- " Dr. Avery Jenkins " <docaltmed wrote: > John, I'm going to respectfully disagree. If one > already is a doctor in > alternative medicine, as is a chiropractor, one is > already trained to > think diagnostically in a holistic matrix that is > not dissimilar from that > of TCM. It is really not as much what you know as > much as it is learning > how to think in a certain way. Once you have done > that, you can more > rapidly assimilate another construct. > > As Korzybski said, it is important not to confuse > the map with the > territory, and TCM is just another map. If you're a > good map-reader, you > can read any map. > > For example, I didn't need to be re-taught how to > conduct a diagnostic > interview. What I needed to learn is what TCM > requires me to pay attention > to. > > Similarly with examination skills. > > Application is somewhat easier, in part do to the > advanced palpatory > skills and anatomic knowledge that a chiropractor > possesses. > > I agree with you that 300 hours is not enough to > become a skilled > acupuncturist, just as the 7,500 hours of > post-secondary education were > not enough to make me a skilled chiropractic > physician. Both require > on-the-ground experience, and that is only gained > through time. But the > 300 hours on top of what I already knew and had > experienced was sufficient > for initial adequacy, which is the point of a > professional education. > > Avery > > > On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:29:50 -0400, > <johnkokko wrote: > > > Unfortunately, there are 300 hour board certified > (not nccaom) courses in > > acupuncture for chiropractors and medical doctors. > Unless, one has the > > theory and fundamentals down, a tcm diagnosis can > not be reached. > > Theory, > > Fundamentals and Diagnosis alone is over 300 > didactic hours at any > > accredited school. If one only studies > acupuncture points, but without > > acupuncture technique and clinical training under > the tutelage of an > > experienced physician, then harm can be done to > the patient. Hopefully, > > nobody is just experimenting on their patients. > That's why any serious > > student of acupuncture should attend an accredited > school and prove at > > least > > academic competence for acupuncture by passing the > nccaom boards. > > > > However, if you are an md or chiropractor, there > is the Joseph Helms > > school > > for medical acupuncture. I've seen acupuncturists > use nutraceuticals, > > mds > > prescribing chinese herbs and chiropractors doing > acupuncture. My > > personal > > opinion is that we should all stick to what we are > qualified to do. > > Acupuncturists would lose their license doing > spinal manipulations, even > > after a six month course, which is obviously not > enough time to practice > > adjustments, even with the science requirements > already accomplished. > > > > So, another question is how many hours would be > enough to allow doctors > > of > > medicine and chiropractic to practice acupuncture > ethically speaking? > > > > My humble estimate is 3000 minus the western > science hours. So 2000 > > would > > be in the ball park. > > > > Just my 2 cents, J. K. > > > > On 10/26/06, Gitavarz Tech Corp > <gitavarz wrote: > >> > >> Would you please inform me all official degrees > of acupuncture and > >> respective abbreviations in most countries (esp. > acupuncture degrees for > >> 6-month acupuncture training courses for MD > doctors). > >> > >> Best regards, > >> Mehdi Hashemi > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM > at > >> Times > >> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > >> > >> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, > click, > >> > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > >> > >> > >> > > and > >> adjust > >> accordingly. > >> > >> Messages are the property of the author. Any > duplication outside the > >> group > >> requires prior permission from the author. > >> > >> Please consider the environment and only print > this message if > >> absolutely > >> necessary. > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Seems like I touched a nerve. I don't want to set off a flame war; hey, I'm just on this forum to contribute and learn like everybody else. But I do want to clear up a couple of misconceptions, at least with regard to practice in the U.S. Like it or not, the MD and DC degrees are significantly more extensive than those required for acupuncture, in fact, over twice as long. Between 4500 and 5000 hours are required for MD or DC, which are terminal degrees comparable to the PhD, compared to the 1900 hours necessary for the master's level acupuncture degrees. I'm sure the OMD is more extensive than the master's degrees, perhaps someone can provide the details. The additional education does make us better equipped to adapt to new strategies, due to a broader base in the fundamentals. And, as I said, particularly in the case of the DC, the holistic underpinnings of the education make it easier to absorb another holistic approach. For example, as a chiropractic student, I also had classes in the use of homeopathy, which some DCs use extensively in their practices as well, but which, like TCM, is also a discipline with its own arcana. At the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum, the education is as much about learning *how* to think as it is accumulating data. I think an apt practical analogy for the relationship between the acupuncturist/DC and L.Ac. might be the relationship between psychologist and social worker. Both provide similar, overlapping services. The higher degree alone is no assurance of better clinical excellence. When what I need a good therapist for a patient, I frequently turn to a licensed social worker. When I need a broader-scope approach requiring enhanced diagnostic acumen, or a specialized skillset (e.g. neuropsychology), I will refer to a psychologist. Second, chiropractic did not " originate from tui-na, " as you suggest. It is certainly true that most cultures, both western and eastern have longstanding traditions of spinal and other joint manipulation, and it would be surprising if a system as comprehensive as TCM lacked such a discipline. However, DD Palmer's concept of " innate intelligence, " while on the surface similar to the idea of Qi, actually has far greater similarities to western vitalism than it does to the eastern dialectic. Technique-wise, tui na is probably actually closer to osteopathic manipulation than it is to the HVLA of chiropractic. Frankly, I say if your scope of practice permits the use of tui-na, go for it! Joint manipulation is powerful medicine, regardless of what you call it. The who-is-better bickering is, from my point of view, reflective of an underlying belief in scarcity. We both have different and overlapping skillsets, and both have tremendous value to our patients individually and to society at large. There's so many people that need us, and don't even know it yet! I'm on this list to enjoy with, contribute to, and learn from those with whom I have so much in common. I hope that I've arrived on this path via a different route than yours does not interfere with our capacity to learn from one another. Avery L. Jenkins, DC, FIAMA, DACBN Chiropractic Physician Fellow, International Academy of Medical Acupuncturists Diplomate, American Clinical Board of Nutrition www.docaltmed.com On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:38:28 -0400, <acudoc11 wrote: > Then it should be sufficient for an Acupuncture Physician (non MD - non > DC) > to go the distance of the week-end warrior by adding an additional > 100-300 > hours and hit the streets immediately with sufficient initial adequacy > to use > chiropractic? > Is it time to have courses in Acu-practic? > Oh...wait a minute.....APs don't really need any additional education or > clinical experience as that which is called chiropractic originated > from Tui-Na > and that's a basic TCM course. > Sounds like a plan!!!! > Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 I wish to comment on this quote, " Western medicine has so little " overlap " with Asian medicine. " If we compare classical Chinese to modern medicine then I agree but if we look at today's TCM then I must disagree as there is a lot of allopathic medicine being integrated into Chinese medicine. A quick look at many of today's TCM texts would support this as well. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ________________________________ > Chinese Medicine > bbeale > Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:45:42 -0700 > RE: acupuncture degrees > > I've always maintained that having an MD (with their " version " of > acupuncture training) doing acupuncture is like having an electrician do the > plumbing in a house. Western medicine has so little " overlap " with Asian > medicine. > _____ > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\ @> > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_\ Medicine >] On Behalf Of Attilio > D'Alberto > Friday, October 27, 2006 8:37 AM > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\ @> > RE: acupuncture degrees > Even with any previous education, no matter what discipline or skin, to > begin practice acupuncture properly you should undergo a minimum of 18 > months full time training. That's taking into account all the western > medicine training previously undertaken in a former course. If you don't > even have that, then forget it. And don't forget that 18 months full time > training is just a firm foundation block for a life times of work, study and > observation. > Kind regards, > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM > Editor > Times > +44 (0) 1189 612512 > enquiries@chineseme <enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com> > dicinetimes.com > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40> > Chinese_Medicine <Chinese_Medicine > > [Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40> > Chinese_Medicine <Chinese_Medicine >] On Behalf Of Dr. Avery > Jenkins > 27 October 2006 15:54 > Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40> > Chinese_Medicine <Chinese_Medicine > > Re: acupuncture degrees > John, I'm going to respectfully disagree. If one already is a doctor in > alternative medicine, as is a chiropractor, one is already trained to > think diagnostically in a holistic matrix that is not dissimilar from that > of TCM. It is really not as much what you know as much as it is learning > how to think in a certain way. Once you have done that, you can more > rapidly assimilate another construct. > As Korzybski said, it is important not to confuse the map with the > territory, and TCM is just another map. If you're a good map-reader, you > can read any map. > For example, I didn't need to be re-taught how to conduct a diagnostic > interview. What I needed to learn is what TCM requires me to pay attention > to. > Similarly with examination skills. > Application is somewhat easier, in part do to the advanced palpatory > skills and anatomic knowledge that a chiropractor possesses. > I agree with you that 300 hours is not enough to become a skilled > acupuncturist, just as the 7,500 hours of post-secondary education were > not enough to make me a skilled chiropractic physician. Both require > on-the-ground experience, and that is only gained through time. But the > 300 hours on top of what I already knew and had experienced was sufficient > for initial adequacy, which is the point of a professional education. > Avery > On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:29:50 -0400, <johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) > <johnkokko%40gmail.com> com> wrote: > > Unfortunately, there are 300 hour board certified (not nccaom) courses > > in acupuncture for chiropractors and medical doctors. Unless, one has the > > theory and fundamentals down, a tcm diagnosis can not be reached. > > Theory, > > Fundamentals and Diagnosis alone is over 300 didactic hours at any > > accredited school. If one only studies acupuncture points, but > > without acupuncture technique and clinical training under the tutelage > > of an experienced physician, then harm can be done to the patient. > > Hopefully, nobody is just experimenting on their patients. That's why > > any serious student of acupuncture should attend an accredited school and > prove at > > least > > academic competence for acupuncture by passing the nccaom boards. > > > > However, if you are an md or chiropractor, there is the Joseph Helms > > school > > for medical acupuncture. I've seen acupuncturists use nutraceuticals, > > mds > > prescribing chinese herbs and chiropractors doing acupuncture. My > > personal > > opinion is that we should all stick to what we are qualified to do. > > Acupuncturists would lose their license doing spinal manipulations, even > > after a six month course, which is obviously not enough time to practice > > adjustments, even with the science requirements already accomplished. > > > > So, another question is how many hours would be enough to allow > > doctors > > of > > medicine and chiropractic to practice acupuncture ethically speaking? > > > > My humble estimate is 3000 minus the western science hours. So 2000 > > would > > be in the ball park. > > > > Just my 2 cents, J. K. > > > > On 10/26/06, Gitavarz Tech Corp <gitavarz (AT) (DOT) > <gitavarz%40> com> wrote: > >> > >> Would you please inform me all official degrees of acupuncture and > >> respective abbreviations in most countries (esp. acupuncture degrees > >> for 6-month acupuncture training courses for MD doctors). > >> > >> Best regards, > >> Mehdi Hashemi > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at > >> Times > >> http://www.chinesem <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com> > edicinetimes.com > >> > >> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > >> http://toolbar. > <http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145> > thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > >> > >> > >> http://groups. > <> > and > >> adjust > >> accordingly. > >> > >> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the > >> group > >> requires prior permission from the author. > >> > >> Please consider the environment and only print this message if > >> absolutely > >> necessary. > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 I would check with the WI acupuncture licensing authority and not just some practitioner. I have found many instances where practitioners are not up on their own laws (which is dangerous). Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ________________________________ > Chinese Medicine > listserve > Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:36:51 -0400 > RE: acupuncture degrees > > A chiro told me that Wisconsin allows manipulations of some sort in their > Acu scope. Anyone know anything about that? > -Tim Sharpe L.Ac. > > > Thursday, October 26, 2006 6:30 PM > Acupuncturists would lose their license doing spinal manipulations, even > after a six month course _______________ Get the new ! http://get.live.com/messenger/overview Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 One big question here is. .. What do we consider to be " TCM " ? Clearly, in China, this is largely the practice of zhong yao, internal medicine with medicinals, or 'herbal medicine', which needs a lot more training than acupuncture/moxabustion no matter what one's background is. Whether or not a chiropractor or naturopath is able to absorb Chinese medicine because they are trained in a 'holistic matrix' is also open to debate and discussion. It is an important issue, and perhaps training should be addressed on this site in an open manner. On Oct 27, 2006, at 7:54 AM, Dr. Avery Jenkins wrote: > John, I'm going to respectfully disagree. If one already is a > doctor in > alternative medicine, as is a chiropractor, one is already trained to > think diagnostically in a holistic matrix that is not dissimilar > from that > of TCM. It is really not as much what you know as much as it is > learning > how to think in a certain way. Once you have done that, you can more > rapidly assimilate another construct. > > As Korzybski said, it is important not to confuse the map with the > territory, and TCM is just another map. If you're a good map- > reader, you > can read any map. > > For example, I didn't need to be re-taught how to conduct a diagnostic > interview. What I needed to learn is what TCM requires me to pay > attention > to. > > Similarly with examination skills. > > Application is somewhat easier, in part do to the advanced palpatory > skills and anatomic knowledge that a chiropractor possesses. > > I agree with you that 300 hours is not enough to become a skilled > acupuncturist, just as the 7,500 hours of post-secondary education > were > not enough to make me a skilled chiropractic physician. Both require > on-the-ground experience, and that is only gained through time. But > the > 300 hours on top of what I already knew and had experienced was > sufficient > for initial adequacy, which is the point of a professional education. > > Avery > > > On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:29:50 -0400, > <johnkokko wrote: > >> Unfortunately, there are 300 hour board certified (not nccaom) >> courses in >> acupuncture for chiropractors and medical doctors. Unless, one >> has the >> theory and fundamentals down, a tcm diagnosis can not be reached. >> Theory, >> Fundamentals and Diagnosis alone is over 300 didactic hours at any >> accredited school. If one only studies acupuncture points, but >> without >> acupuncture technique and clinical training under the tutelage of an >> experienced physician, then harm can be done to the patient. >> Hopefully, >> nobody is just experimenting on their patients. That's why any >> serious >> student of acupuncture should attend an accredited school and >> prove at >> least >> academic competence for acupuncture by passing the nccaom boards. >> >> However, if you are an md or chiropractor, there is the Joseph Helms >> school >> for medical acupuncture. I've seen acupuncturists use >> nutraceuticals, >> mds >> prescribing chinese herbs and chiropractors doing acupuncture. My >> personal >> opinion is that we should all stick to what we are qualified to do. >> Acupuncturists would lose their license doing spinal >> manipulations, even >> after a six month course, which is obviously not enough time to >> practice >> adjustments, even with the science requirements already accomplished. >> >> So, another question is how many hours would be enough to allow >> doctors >> of >> medicine and chiropractic to practice acupuncture ethically speaking? >> >> My humble estimate is 3000 minus the western science hours. So 2000 >> would >> be in the ball park. >> >> Just my 2 cents, J. K. >> >> On 10/26/06, Gitavarz Tech Corp <gitavarz wrote: >>> >>> Would you please inform me all official degrees of acupuncture and >>> respective abbreviations in most countries (esp. acupuncture >>> degrees for >>> 6-month acupuncture training courses for MD doctors). >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Mehdi Hashemi >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at >>> Times >>> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com >>> >>> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, >>> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 >>> >>> >>> and >>> adjust >>> accordingly. >>> >>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the >>> group >>> requires prior permission from the author. >>> >>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if >>> absolutely >>> necessary. >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Avery does bring up some interesting points. I am a TCM graduate from a well-known US program, licensed in CA and now attending a chiropractic program. I would say that there is a huge difference in learning to apply things and what their meanings are. Better yet, what takes priority as far as diagnosis? Does this sign really mean this and if so what can be done about it? Developing a sense of touch for the pulse is a very subtle thing and takes more then just a few hundred hours. Oh and lastly, there is little to no SUPERVISED clinical internships in these 100-300 hr programs nor are they recognized by the US dept of Education. No oversight, hmmh. I think that one should really question their motives with why they feel that it is so important to short-cut the process (greed or ?). With so many practitioners of TCM in many states, it really should not be that hard to find someone properly trained. That would be the ethical thing to do. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ________________________________ > Chinese Medicine > acudoc11 > Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:38:28 -0400 > Re: acupuncture degrees > > Then it should be sufficient for an Acupuncture Physician (non MD - non DC) > to go the distance of the week-end warrior by adding an additional 100-300 > hours and hit the streets immediately with sufficient initial adequacy to use > chiropractic? > Is it time to have courses in Acu-practic? > Oh...wait a minute.....APs don't really need any additional education or > clinical experience as that which is called chiropractic originated from Tui-Na > and that's a basic TCM course. > Sounds like a plan!!!! > Richard > In a message dated 10/27/06 11:27:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > docaltmed<docaltmed writes: > John, I'm going to respectfully disagree. If one already is a doctor in > alternative medicine, as is a chiropractor, one is already trained to > think diagnostically in a holistic matrix that is not dissimilar from that > of TCM. It is really not as much what you know as much as it is learning > how to think in a certain way. Once you have done that, you can more > rapidly assimilate another construct. > As Korzybski said, it is important not to confuse the map with the > territory, and TCM is just another map. If you're a good map-reader, you > can read any map. > For example, I didn't need to be re-taught how to conduct a diagnostic > interview. What I needed to learn is what TCM requires me to pay attention > to. > Similarly with examination skills. > Application is somewhat easier, in part do to the advanced palpatory > skills and anatomic knowledge that a chiropractor possesses. > I agree with you that 300 hours is not enough to become a skilled > acupuncturist, just as the 7,500 hours of post-secondary education were > not enough to make me a skilled chiropractic physician. Both require > on-the-ground experience, and that is only gained through time. But the > 300 hours on top of what I already knew and had experienced was sufficient > for initial adequacy, which is the point of a professional education. > Avery > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 One of the courses I saw listed for MD's was 300 hrs but 2 weeks - 80 hrs in the classroom and the rest distance learning. Interesting, huh.. There are cookbook needles and I know I use them, but I am also looking the patient from many lenses, 5 Element, TCM , Dr. Tan' body imaging, Jeffrey yuen's seminars, Alex Tiberi and on and on. These are all things that are building on 3 1/2 years of training. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- Rene Ng <sdngr > Your answer is precisely why " weekend crash courses " > are no way for MDs and such to learn to be able to > practice acupuncture correctly. There is a reason why > the TCM schools in China where acupuncture oriented > require western medicine graduates (aka, MDs) to take > additional YEARS of intense TCM training before being > allowed to practice TCM. 300 hours?? You barely will > even know the effects of all the acupuncture points, > and forget about all the different manipulations, etc. > And you won't even have started to touch upon TCM > diagnosis, which goes WAY BEYOND just palpation and > logical disseminations! > > --- " Dr. Avery Jenkins " <docaltmed > wrote: > > > John, I'm going to respectfully disagree. If one > > already is a doctor in > > alternative medicine, as is a chiropractor, one is > > already trained to > > think diagnostically in a holistic matrix that is > > not dissimilar from that > > of TCM. It is really not as much what you know as > > much as it is learning > > how to think in a certain way. Once you have done > > that, you can more > > rapidly assimilate another construct. > > > > As Korzybski said, it is important not to confuse > > the map with the > > territory, and TCM is just another map. If you're a > > good map-reader, you > > can read any map. > > > > For example, I didn't need to be re-taught how to > > conduct a diagnostic > > interview. What I needed to learn is what TCM > > requires me to pay attention > > to. > > > > Similarly with examination skills. > > > > Application is somewhat easier, in part do to the > > advanced palpatory > > skills and anatomic knowledge that a chiropractor > > possesses. > > > > I agree with you that 300 hours is not enough to > > become a skilled > > acupuncturist, just as the 7,500 hours of > > post-secondary education were > > not enough to make me a skilled chiropractic > > physician. Both require > > on-the-ground experience, and that is only gained > > through time. But the > > 300 hours on top of what I already knew and had > > experienced was sufficient > > for initial adequacy, which is the point of a > > professional education. > > > > Avery > > > > > > On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:29:50 -0400, > > <johnkokko wrote: > > > > > Unfortunately, there are 300 hour board certified > > (not nccaom) courses in > > > acupuncture for chiropractors and medical doctors. > > Unless, one has the > > > theory and fundamentals down, a tcm diagnosis can > > not be reached. > > > Theory, > > > Fundamentals and Diagnosis alone is over 300 > > didactic hours at any > > > accredited school. If one only studies > > acupuncture points, but without > > > acupuncture technique and clinical training under > > the tutelage of an > > > experienced physician, then harm can be done to > > the patient. Hopefully, > > > nobody is just experimenting on their patients. > > That's why any serious > > > student of acupuncture should attend an accredited > > school and prove at > > > least > > > academic competence for acupuncture by passing the > > nccaom boards. > > > > > > However, if you are an md or chiropractor, there > > is the Joseph Helms > > > school > > > for medical acupuncture. I've seen acupuncturists > > use nutraceuticals, > > > mds > > > prescribing chinese herbs and chiropractors doing > > acupuncture. My > > > personal > > > opinion is that we should all stick to what we are > > qualified to do. > > > Acupuncturists would lose their license doing > > spinal manipulations, even > > > after a six month course, which is obviously not > > enough time to practice > > > adjustments, even with the science requirements > > already accomplished. > > > > > > So, another question is how many hours would be > > enough to allow doctors > > > of > > > medicine and chiropractic to practice acupuncture > > ethically speaking? > > > > > > My humble estimate is 3000 minus the western > > science hours. So 2000 > > > would > > > be in the ball park. > > > > > > Just my 2 cents, J. K. > > > > > > On 10/26/06, Gitavarz Tech Corp > > <gitavarz wrote: > > >> > > >> Would you please inform me all official degrees > > of acupuncture and > > >> respective abbreviations in most countries (esp. > > acupuncture degrees for > > >> 6-month acupuncture training courses for MD > > doctors). > > >> > > >> Best regards, > > >> Mehdi Hashemi > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM > > at > > >> Times > > >> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > >> > > >> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, > > click, > > >> > > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > and > > >> adjust > > >> accordingly. > > >> > > >> Messages are the property of the author. Any > > duplication outside the > > >> group > > >> requires prior permission from the author. > > >> > > >> Please consider the environment and only print > > this message if > > >> absolutely > > >> necessary. > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Chiros and doctors can do crash courses. (One postgrad student of acupuncture told me that they did all the point location in one weekend.) And as for medical acupuncture.... Regards, Lea. Chinese Medicine , " " <attiliodalberto wrote: > > An acupuncture degree in 6 months!! I hope not. > > Attilio > > Chinese Medicine , Gitavarz Tech > Corp <gitavarz@> wrote: > > > > Would you please inform me all official degrees of acupuncture and > respective abbreviations in most countries (esp. acupuncture degrees > for 6-month acupuncture training courses for MD doctors). > > > > Best regards, > > Mehdi Hashemi > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Here in California's Wittier (?) college of Chiropractic, you get your DC in 3,200 hours, roughly what our Master of Acupuncture is. That's less than 4 years. Now our acu schools here in CA are 3200 to 3500 hours and when you add the hours for the DAOM, that another 1300 hours or so. That makes the acu doctorate more hours than the chir or the MD. Of course, none of this includes the required undergrad hours. If you added a BS to the mix, then you would be talking those kinds of hours. But then, most AOM practitioners have the Bachelors also. The MD degree is around 4200 hours of academic time. This does not include residency. Residency is not academic time and it is paid time, as in a job. Please stop blowing smoke. Dr. Snow, DAOM, MSTOM, MPH, L.Ac. - Dr. Avery Jenkins Friday, October 27, 2006 2:02 PM Chinese Medicine Re: acupuncture degrees Seems like I touched a nerve. I don't want to set off a flame war; hey, I'm just on this forum to contribute and learn like everybody else. But I do want to clear up a couple of misconceptions, at least with regard to practice in the U.S. Like it or not, the MD and DC degrees are significantly more extensive than those required for acupuncture, in fact, over twice as long. Between 4500 and 5000 hours are required for MD or DC, which are terminal degrees comparable to the PhD, compared to the 1900 hours necessary for the master's level acupuncture degrees. I'm sure the OMD is more extensive than the master's degrees, perhaps someone can provide the details. The additional education does make us better equipped to adapt to new strategies, due to a broader base in the fundamentals. And, as I said, particularly in the case of the DC, the holistic underpinnings of the education make it easier to absorb another holistic approach. For example, as a chiropractic student, I also had classes in the use of homeopathy, which some DCs use extensively in their practices as well, but which, like TCM, is also a discipline with its own arcana. At the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum, the education is as much about learning *how* to think as it is accumulating data. I think an apt practical analogy for the relationship between the acupuncturist/DC and L.Ac. might be the relationship between psychologist and social worker. Both provide similar, overlapping services. The higher degree alone is no assurance of better clinical excellence. When what I need a good therapist for a patient, I frequently turn to a licensed social worker. When I need a broader-scope approach requiring enhanced diagnostic acumen, or a specialized skillset (e.g. neuropsychology), I will refer to a psychologist. Second, chiropractic did not " originate from tui-na, " as you suggest. It is certainly true that most cultures, both western and eastern have longstanding traditions of spinal and other joint manipulation, and it would be surprising if a system as comprehensive as TCM lacked such a discipline. However, DD Palmer's concept of " innate intelligence, " while on the surface similar to the idea of Qi, actually has far greater similarities to western vitalism than it does to the eastern dialectic. Technique-wise, tui na is probably actually closer to osteopathic manipulation than it is to the HVLA of chiropractic. Frankly, I say if your scope of practice permits the use of tui-na, go for it! Joint manipulation is powerful medicine, regardless of what you call it. The who-is-better bickering is, from my point of view, reflective of an underlying belief in scarcity. We both have different and overlapping skillsets, and both have tremendous value to our patients individually and to society at large. There's so many people that need us, and don't even know it yet! I'm on this list to enjoy with, contribute to, and learn from those with whom I have so much in common. I hope that I've arrived on this path via a different route than yours does not interfere with our capacity to learn from one another. Avery L. Jenkins, DC, FIAMA, DACBN Chiropractic Physician Fellow, International Academy of Medical Acupuncturists Diplomate, American Clinical Board of Nutrition www.docaltmed.com On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:38:28 -0400, <acudoc11 wrote: > Then it should be sufficient for an Acupuncture Physician (non MD - non > DC) > to go the distance of the week-end warrior by adding an additional > 100-300 > hours and hit the streets immediately with sufficient initial adequacy > to use > chiropractic? > Is it time to have courses in Acu-practic? > Oh...wait a minute.....APs don't really need any additional education or > clinical experience as that which is called chiropractic originated > from Tui-Na > and that's a basic TCM course. > Sounds like a plan!!!! > Richard Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 On Friday 27 October 2006 11:38, acudoc11 wrote: Hi Dr. Richard! I like the idea of an additional 300 hours of pharma courses to become an MD. Do our part to ease the doctor shortage and all that. > Then it should be sufficient for an Acupuncture Physician (non MD - non > DC) to go the distance of the week-end warrior by adding an additional > 100-300 hours and hit the streets immediately with sufficient initial > adequacy to use chiropractic? > > Is it time to have courses in Acu-practic? > > Oh...wait a minute.....APs don't really need any additional education or > clinical experience as that which is called chiropractic originated from > Tui-Na and that's a basic TCM course. > > Sounds like a plan!!!! > > Richard > > > In a message dated 10/27/06 11:27:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > docaltmed writes: > > John, I'm going to respectfully disagree. If one already is a doctor in > alternative medicine, as is a chiropractor, one is already trained to > think diagnostically in a holistic matrix that is not dissimilar from that > of TCM. It is really not as much what you know as much as it is learning > how to think in a certain way. Once you have done that, you can more > rapidly assimilate another construct. > > As Korzybski said, it is important not to confuse the map with the > territory, and TCM is just another map. If you're a good map-reader, you > can read any map. > > For example, I didn't need to be re-taught how to conduct a diagnostic > interview. What I needed to learn is what TCM requires me to pay attention > to. > > Similarly with examination skills. > > Application is somewhat easier, in part do to the advanced palpatory > skills and anatomic knowledge that a chiropractor possesses. > > I agree with you that 300 hours is not enough to become a skilled > acupuncturist, just as the 7,500 hours of post-secondary education were > not enough to make me a skilled chiropractic physician. Both require > on-the-ground experience, and that is only gained through time. But the > 300 hours on top of what I already knew and had experienced was sufficient > for initial adequacy, which is the point of a professional education. -- Regards, Pete http://www.pete-theisen.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Dr. Avery, I appreciate your comments and would like to clarify the number of hours that are required to complete programs of study pertaining to the practice of acupuncture, chiropractic and allopathic medicine. For California's masters program leading to L.Ac.(Cal.boards): Code 4939. " (b) Standards for the approval of training programs shall include a minimum of 3,000 hours of study in curriculum pertaining to the practice of an acupuncturist. This subdivision shall apply to all students entering programs on or after January 1, 2005. " http://www.acupuncture.ca.gov/law_reg/laws.htm Concerning the doctoral programs currently available in California, Oregon and Washington: " The National Oriental Medicine Accreditation Agency (NOMAA) has published the standards and criteria for its doctor of Oriental medicine (OMD) professional degree program on its Web site (www.nomaa.org). The criteria include a minimum 4,000-hour curriculum for a terminal or entry-level doctoral degree. " http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2004/may/05nomaa.html " The NOMAA curriculum is 1,585 hours greater than the Licensed Doctor of Oriental Medicine requirement in New Mexico and similarly greater than the Licensed Acupuncture Physician requirement in the state of Florida. " http://www.nomaa.org/criteria.htm According to the NCCAOM requirements to take the national boards: " Eligibility Criteria for the Acupuncture Examination Formal Schooling – Graduation from a formal full-time acupuncture program that can document at least 1,725 hours of entry-level acupuncture education. Education must consist of a minimum of 1000 didactic and 500 clinical hours. Apprenticeship – Completion of an apprenticeship of at least 4,000 contact hours in a three- to six- year period. The preceptor must have had at least five years experience prior to the beginning of the apprenticeship. Preceptor's practice must be at a minimum level of 500 acupuncture patient visits by no fewer than 100 different patients during each year of the apprenticeship program. Eligibility Criteria for the Chinese Herbology Examination Formal Schooling – Graduation from a formal full-time Oriental medicine program that can document at least 2,175 hours of entry-level Oriental medicine education. Education must consist of a minimum of 1450 didactic (300 of which relate specifically to Chinese herbology) and 500 clinical hours. " http://www.nccaom.org/certify.html Requirements for Chiropractic doctors: " Doctors of chiropractic must complete four to five years at an accredited chiropractic college. The complete curriculum includes a minimum of 4,200 hours of classroom, laboratory and clinical experience. Approximately 555 hours are devoted to learning about adjustive techniques and spinal analysis in colleges of chiropractic. In medical schools, training to become proficient in manipulation is generally not required of, or offered to, students. The Council on Chiropractic Education requires that students have 90 hours of undergraduate courses with science as the focus. " http://www.acatoday.com/level2_css.cfm?T1ID=13 & T2ID=62 The American Chiropractic Association Requirements for MDs: " Formal education and training requirements for physicians are among the most demanding of any occupation—4 years of undergraduate school, 4 years of medical school, and 3 to 8 years of internship and residency, depending on the specialty selected. A few medical schools offer combined undergraduate and medical school programs that last 6 rather than the customary 8 years. " http://stats.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm U.S Dept. of Labor " Training other qualifications, and advancement " In Summary, the formal training for the D.A.O.M. (doctor of acupuncture and oriental medicine) title and D.C. (doctor of chiropractic) is about the same in hours - 4000/ 4200. Allopathic M.Ds. with the included internship/ specialty residency hours surpass both fields. My personal hope is that in the near future, there will be a 4000 hour minimum requirement for newly licensed acupuncturists across the board, which will lead to an entry level doctorate. With added rigor, may come additional responsibilities to our patients and respect from other medical modalities. Thank you for your comments. K. Chinese Medicine , " Dr. Avery Jenkins " <docaltmed wrote: > > Seems like I touched a nerve. I don't want to set off a flame war; hey, > I'm just on this forum to contribute and learn like everybody else. But I > do want to clear up a couple of misconceptions, at least with regard to > practice in the U.S. > > Like it or not, the MD and DC degrees are significantly more extensive > than those required for acupuncture, in fact, over twice as long. Between > 4500 and 5000 hours are required for MD or DC, which are terminal degrees > comparable to the PhD, compared to the 1900 hours necessary for the > master's level acupuncture degrees. I'm sure the OMD is more extensive > than the master's degrees, perhaps someone can provide the details. The > additional education does make us better equipped to adapt to new > strategies, due to a broader base in the fundamentals. And, as I said, > particularly in the case of the DC, the holistic underpinnings of the > education make it easier to absorb another holistic approach. For example, > as a chiropractic student, I also had classes in the use of homeopathy, > which some DCs use extensively in their practices as well, but which, like > TCM, is also a discipline with its own arcana. At the risk of repeating > myself ad nauseum, the education is as much about learning *how* to think > as it is accumulating data. > > I think an apt practical analogy for the relationship between the > acupuncturist/DC and L.Ac. might be the relationship between psychologist > and social worker. Both provide similar, overlapping services. The higher > degree alone is no assurance of better clinical excellence. When what I > need a good therapist for a patient, I frequently turn to a licensed > social worker. When I need a broader-scope approach requiring enhanced > diagnostic acumen, or a specialized skillset (e.g. neuropsychology), I > will refer to a psychologist. > > Second, chiropractic did not " originate from tui-na, " as you suggest. It > is certainly true that most cultures, both western and eastern have > longstanding traditions of spinal and other joint manipulation, and it > would be surprising if a system as comprehensive as TCM lacked such a > discipline. However, DD Palmer's concept of " innate intelligence, " while > on the surface similar to the idea of Qi, actually has far greater > similarities to western vitalism than it does to the eastern dialectic. > Technique-wise, tui na is probably actually closer to osteopathic > manipulation than it is to the HVLA of chiropractic. > > Frankly, I say if your scope of practice permits the use of tui-na, go for > it! Joint manipulation is powerful medicine, regardless of what you call > it. > > The who-is-better bickering is, from my point of view, reflective of an > underlying belief in scarcity. We both have different and overlapping > skillsets, and both have tremendous value to our patients individually and > to society at large. There's so many people that need us, and don't even > know it yet! I'm on this list to enjoy with, contribute to, and learn from > those with whom I have so much in common. I hope that I've arrived on this > path via a different route than yours does not interfere with our capacity > to learn from one another. > > > Avery L. Jenkins, DC, FIAMA, DACBN > Chiropractic Physician > Fellow, International Academy of Medical Acupuncturists > Diplomate, American Clinical Board of Nutrition > www.docaltmed.com > > > > On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:38:28 -0400, <acudoc11 wrote: > > > Then it should be sufficient for an Acupuncture Physician (non MD - non > > DC) > > to go the distance of the week-end warrior by adding an additional > > 100-300 > > hours and hit the streets immediately with sufficient initial adequacy > > to use > > chiropractic? > > Is it time to have courses in Acu-practic? > > Oh...wait a minute.....APs don't really need any additional education or > > clinical experience as that which is called chiropractic originated > > from Tui-Na > > and that's a basic TCM course. > > Sounds like a plan!!!! > > Richard > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Action speaks louder than empty rhetoric. It is now illegal in Florida for a DC or an MD to call themselves acupuncturist (medical acupuncturist) or anything similar. The DCs are prohibited from calling themselves Certified Acupuncturists. Even those who banter around the week-end-warrior 100 hr board certifications are now being cautioned by the Department of Health. A DC who has a certification is only allowed to say that they USE acupuncture and they had better make sure they inform the public in their advertisements that they have NO license in acupuncture unless of course they completed the full course of study and maintain a dual licensure. In lieu of the dual licensure (if they mention acupuncture in their ads) the DC must state that they are ONLY a Chiropractor. The community here in Florida is tired of this kind of mis-advertising and defrauding of the public. The state has finally gotten serious about it. Violate it and the DC or the MD will be hauled before their respective boards under the Dept of Health for disciplinary action coupled with stiff fines and substantial investigative fees. What DCs administer with the 100 hrs should be appropriately called Chiro-Puncture whatever that might be. And what the MDs do without any training should be called Medi-Puncture....but definitely neither are acupuncture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 Hi, well I just want you to know that Chile´s government, has approved a law that officially recognize TCM and Acupuncture as a therapeutic medicine, and now there are acupuncturists working in Government hospitals as regular staff. M.D.`s , R. Nurses, Dentists, etc, and any one that wants to use acupuncture in their practice are obligated to go through the whole TCM program in a recognize School, same way around. That is fare, I think. Orlando On 10/27/06, Tim Sharpe <listserve wrote: > > A chiro told me that Wisconsin allows manipulations of some sort in > their > Acu scope. Anyone know anything about that? > > -Tim Sharpe L.Ac. > > > > Thursday, October 26, 2006 6:30 PM > > Acupuncturists would lose their license doing spinal manipulations, even > after a six month course > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2006 Report Share Posted October 28, 2006 I think the reason so many chiros and mds are flocking to learn or perform acupuncture is: 1. Because it works 2. AOM is a complete medicine, we really don't need to practice allopathic or chiro. Perhaps there is something lacking in their own medicine? 3. Acupuncture is a strong tool within AOM, but it isn't the complete medicine. It is powerful though. I find it odd that mds are saying acupuncture doesn't work through one side of their mouth while at the same time flocking to use it in their own practices. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, L.Ac. - mike Bowser Friday, October 27, 2006 1:14 PM Chinese Traditional Medicine RE: acupuncture degrees Avery does bring up some interesting points. I am a TCM graduate from a well-known US program, licensed in CA and now attending a chiropractic program. I would say that there is a huge difference in learning to apply things and what their meanings are. Better yet, what takes priority as far as diagnosis? Does this sign really mean this and if so what can be done about it? Developing a sense of touch for the pulse is a very subtle thing and takes more then just a few hundred hours. Oh and lastly, there is little to no SUPERVISED clinical internships in these 100-300 hr programs nor are they recognized by the US dept of Education. No oversight, hmmh. I think that one should really question their motives with why they feel that it is so important to short-cut the process (greed or ?). With so many practitioners of TCM in many states, it really should not be that hard to find someone properly trained. That would be the ethical thing to do. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ________________________________ > Chinese Medicine > acudoc11 > Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:38:28 -0400 > Re: acupuncture degrees > > Then it should be sufficient for an Acupuncture Physician (non MD - non DC) > to go the distance of the week-end warrior by adding an additional 100-300 > hours and hit the streets immediately with sufficient initial adequacy to use > chiropractic? > Is it time to have courses in Acu-practic? > Oh...wait a minute.....APs don't really need any additional education or > clinical experience as that which is called chiropractic originated from Tui-Na > and that's a basic TCM course. > Sounds like a plan!!!! > Richard > In a message dated 10/27/06 11:27:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > docaltmed<docaltmed writes: > John, I'm going to respectfully disagree. If one already is a doctor in > alternative medicine, as is a chiropractor, one is already trained to > think diagnostically in a holistic matrix that is not dissimilar from that > of TCM. It is really not as much what you know as much as it is learning > how to think in a certain way. Once you have done that, you can more > rapidly assimilate another construct. > As Korzybski said, it is important not to confuse the map with the > territory, and TCM is just another map. If you're a good map-reader, you > can read any map. > For example, I didn't need to be re-taught how to conduct a diagnostic > interview. What I needed to learn is what TCM requires me to pay attention > to. > Similarly with examination skills. > Application is somewhat easier, in part do to the advanced palpatory > skills and anatomic knowledge that a chiropractor possesses. > I agree with you that 300 hours is not enough to become a skilled > acupuncturist, just as the 7,500 hours of post-secondary education were > not enough to make me a skilled chiropractic physician. Both require > on-the-ground experience, and that is only gained through time. But the > 300 hours on top of what I already knew and had experienced was sufficient > for initial adequacy, which is the point of a professional education. > Avery > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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