Role of Acupuncturists in Acupuncture Treatment - open access article

[Guest guest]

Role of Acupuncturists in Acupuncture Treatment

Tao Liu

Evid. Based Complement. Altern. Med. published 3 October 2006,

10.1093/ecam/nel061 Open Access

http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/nel061v1?ct=ct

 

here's also a tiny url to the same article:

 

http://tinyurl.com/eupqx

 

My best,

Cynthia

[Guest guest]

Hi Cynthia & All,

 

Cynthia Ferre wrote:

> Tao Liu. Role of Acupuncturists in Acupuncture Treatment. Evid. Based

> Complement. Altern. Med. published 3 October 2006,

> 10.1093/ecam/nel061 Open Access

> http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/nel061v1?ct=ct

> here's also a tiny url to the same article: http://tinyurl.com/eupqx

> My best, Cynthia

 

Cynthia, may I have your permission to post this to other AP Lists?

 

That article is thought-provoking, but IMO, AP is much more than a

placebo-evoked response!

 

Human and animal research suggests that there is a neuro-humoral

basis for AP that can be enhanced or inhibited by enhancing or blocking

neuro-humoral gates, etc.

 

Also, I feel that the placebo explanation is much weaker when one sees

the clinical effects of AP in animals.

 

I agree, however, that the THERAPIST-PATIENT interaction (whether

the patient be human or animal) is critical to success. One can call this

empathy, or subliminal Qigong or what you like.

 

IMO, some therapists are much better natural intuitives/healers than

others. IMO, those gifts/abilities are innate - i.e.conscious effort or

training has little chance of drastically increasing a therapist's innate

abilities. Yes, one can cultivate empathy, communication skills and

technical knowledge/skills, etc. But if one cannot look another squarely

and openly in the eyes, training is unlikely to alter that much.

 

IMO, much of the therapist's success hinges on self-belief / self-

confidence balanced by humility, quashing of the ego while working,

consciousness of fallibility, honesty and recognition of one's limitations.

 

The self-confidence angle is maximal when the therapist has worked

hard to understand the paradigm (theory and practice) within which

he/she works. Confidence increases with experience and with good to

very good to excellent clinical results.

 

And, yes, the PATIENT (human or animal) has a role to play.

 

Some people NEED (usually temporary) medical problems as an

expression of attention-seeking behaviour (from their partner/family/

boss, etc), or as a safety release to escape from worse stresses.

Success rates in such people, IMO, will be less than in optimistic

positive-thinking people.

 

Best regards,

 

[Guest guest]

Phil,

 

I didn't think the article by Tao Liu was arguing that AP is merely a

placebo response. It was arguing for individualization of treatment (vs.

standardization of treatment in a RCT environment), and the importance of

subjectivity and thus the acupuncturist in that process. The author made his

point by using good references, for example by quoting the work of Stephen

Birch.

 

This article (and those by Birch and others) should be read by many

researchers who complain that research in acupuncture is near worthless. For

example, I have been following the rapid responses to an acupuncture study

by Thomas and MacPerson http://tinyurl.com/jtcbo . Whilst there is good food

for thought in some of those responses, many of those responses are

unnecessary if one understands the problems inherent to acupuncture studies

in a so-called controlled environment.

 

I have no real answer for the " research in acupuncture " topic, but the more

I try to read about it, the harder it becomes to accept RCTs as the gold

standard for research in acupuncture. It would make things a lot easier for

us acupuncture practitoners to talk to doctors, researchers, the general

public,...if RCTs would work seamlessly for acupuncture studies. But alas

they don't.

 

Best,

 

Tom.

 

----

 

 

10/05/06 00:17:17

Chinese Medicine

Re: Role of Acupuncturists in Acupuncture Treatment - open

access article

 

Hi Cynthia & All,

 

Cynthia Ferre wrote:

> Tao Liu. Role of Acupuncturists in Acupuncture Treatment. Evid. Based

> Complement. Altern. Med. published 3 October 2006,

> 10.1093/ecam/nel061 Open Access

> http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/nel061v1?ct=ct

> here's also a tiny url to the same article: http://tinyurl.com/eupqx

> My best, Cynthia

 

 

That article is thought-provoking, but IMO, AP is much more than a

placebo-evoked response!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Tom and Phil,

RCT's don't work in AP, but neither does it in most, if not all

physical therapies. For instance, surgery very often is based on

individual response, how to double blind a triple bypass? Physical

therapy has a version of blind studies, but again, extremely

difficult. Chiropractic is no different, never mind Psychotherapy.

When we look at the history of RCT's we realise that they apply

perfectly to single cell organisisms, on the dish in the researchers

lab where she can completely control for all variables with the

understanding that the will of the subject is knowable, without this

knowledge, RCT's are frankly, worthless.

Those aspects in life that are the most intangible are the most

important, and as soon as will or decision come in, the statistics

have extreme difficulty and science (an altogether too broad a term)

are at a loss (to quote chomsky).

Healing happens because the patients want it to happen, anyone who has

treated someone who doesn't want to get better knows this, anyone who

has treated someone with an intractable disease but watched as the

spirit of the patient healed regardless of the degredation of the body

knows what true healing is, this is not rocket science, but rocket

science isn't the healing process either i would say.

At some point it would be worthwhile not to feel that we need to

measure up, but as long as our medicine is " alternative " we will

continue to use outmoded trials such as placebo needling which any

researcher will tell you is preposterous. I, personally don't need an

RCT to tell me what works and the power of compassion, i will keep my

own counsel.

Regards, Tymothy

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Tom Verhaeghe "

<tom.verhaeghe wrote:

>

>

> Phil,

>

> I didn't think the article by Tao Liu was arguing that AP is merely a

> placebo response. It was arguing for individualization of treatment (vs.

> standardization of treatment in a RCT environment), and the

importance of

> subjectivity and thus the acupuncturist in that process. The author

made his

> point by using good references, for example by quoting the work of

Stephen

> Birch.

>

> This article (and those by Birch and others) should be read by many

> researchers who complain that research in acupuncture is near

worthless. For

> example, I have been following the rapid responses to an acupuncture

study

> by Thomas and MacPerson http://tinyurl.com/jtcbo . Whilst there is

good food

> for thought in some of those responses, many of those responses are

> unnecessary if one understands the problems inherent to acupuncture

studies

> in a so-called controlled environment.

>

> I have no real answer for the " research in acupuncture " topic, but

the more

> I try to read about it, the harder it becomes to accept RCTs as the gold

> standard for research in acupuncture. It would make things a lot

easier for

> us acupuncture practitoners to talk to doctors, researchers, the general

> public,...if RCTs would work seamlessly for acupuncture studies. But

alas

> they don't.

>

> Best,

>

> Tom.

>

> ----

>

>

> 10/05/06 00:17:17

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Role of Acupuncturists in Acupuncture Treatment -

open

> access article

>

> Hi Cynthia & All,

>

> Cynthia Ferre wrote:

> > Tao Liu. Role of Acupuncturists in Acupuncture Treatment. Evid. Based

> > Complement. Altern. Med. published 3 October 2006,

> > 10.1093/ecam/nel061 Open Access

> > http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/nel061v1?ct=ct

> > here's also a tiny url to the same article: http://tinyurl.com/eupqx

> > My best, Cynthia

>

>

> That article is thought-provoking, but IMO, AP is much more than a

> placebo-evoked response!

 

[Guest guest]

On Thursday 05 October 2006 12:37, miracles28 wrote:

 

Hi Tymothy!

 

This is so well put, do you mind if I quote you? With credit, of course. How

would you like me to cite you (don't think I see your last name anywhere

here)?

 

Regards,

 

Pete

 

> Tom and Phil,

> RCT's don't work in AP, but neither does it in most, if not all

> physical therapies. For instance, surgery very often is based on

> individual response, how to double blind a triple bypass? Physical

> therapy has a version of blind studies, but again, extremely

> difficult. Chiropractic is no different, never mind Psychotherapy.

> When we look at the history of RCT's we realise that they apply

> perfectly to single cell organisisms, on the dish in the researchers

> lab where she can completely control for all variables with the

> understanding that the will of the subject is knowable, without this

> knowledge, RCT's are frankly, worthless.

> Those aspects in life that are the most intangible are the most

> important, and as soon as will or decision come in, the statistics

> have extreme difficulty and science (an altogether too broad a term)

> are at a loss (to quote chomsky).

> Healing happens because the patients want it to happen, anyone who has

> treated someone who doesn't want to get better knows this, anyone who

> has treated someone with an intractable disease but watched as the

> spirit of the patient healed regardless of the degredation of the body

> knows what true healing is, this is not rocket science, but rocket

> science isn't the healing process either i would say.

> At some point it would be worthwhile not to feel that we need to

> measure up, but as long as our medicine is " alternative " we will

> continue to use outmoded trials such as placebo needling which any

> researcher will tell you is preposterous. I, personally don't need an

> RCT to tell me what works and the power of compassion, i will keep my

> own counsel.

> Regards, Tymothy

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Tom Verhaeghe "

>

> <tom.verhaeghe wrote:

> > Phil,

> >

> > I didn't think the article by Tao Liu was arguing that AP is merely a

> > placebo response. It was arguing for individualization of treatment (vs.

> > standardization of treatment in a RCT environment), and the

>

> importance of

>

> > subjectivity and thus the acupuncturist in that process. The author

>

> made his

>

> > point by using good references, for example by quoting the work of

>

> Stephen

>

> > Birch.

> >

> > This article (and those by Birch and others) should be read by many

> > researchers who complain that research in acupuncture is near

>

> worthless. For

>

> > example, I have been following the rapid responses to an acupuncture

>

> study

>

> > by Thomas and MacPerson http://tinyurl.com/jtcbo . Whilst there is

>

> good food

>

> > for thought in some of those responses, many of those responses are

> > unnecessary if one understands the problems inherent to acupuncture

>

> studies

>

> > in a so-called controlled environment.

> >

> > I have no real answer for the " research in acupuncture " topic, but

>

> the more

>

> > I try to read about it, the harder it becomes to accept RCTs as the gold

> > standard for research in acupuncture. It would make things a lot

>

> easier for

>

> > us acupuncture practitoners to talk to doctors, researchers, the general

> > public,...if RCTs would work seamlessly for acupuncture studies. But

>

> alas

>

> > they don't.

> >

> > Best,

> >

> > Tom.

> >

> > ----

> >

> >

> > 10/05/06 00:17:17

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Re: Role of Acupuncturists in Acupuncture Treatment -

>

> open

>

> > access article

> >

> > Hi Cynthia & All,

> >

> > Cynthia Ferre wrote:

> > > Tao Liu. Role of Acupuncturists in Acupuncture Treatment. Evid. Based

> > > Complement. Altern. Med. published 3 October 2006,

> > > 10.1093/ecam/nel061 Open Access

> > > http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/nel061v1?ct=ct

> > > here's also a tiny url to the same article: http://tinyurl.com/eupqx

> > > My best, Cynthia

> >

> > That article is thought-provoking, but IMO, AP is much more than a

> > placebo-evoked response!

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Phil: Sorry, I am just seeing this now. Yes, please forward.

Cynthia

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

< wrote:

>

> Hi Cynthia & All,

>

> Cynthia Ferre wrote:

> > Tao Liu. Role of Acupuncturists in Acupuncture Treatment. Evid.

Based

> > Complement. Altern. Med. published 3 October 2006,

> > 10.1093/ecam/nel061 Open Access

> > http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/nel061v1?

ct=ct

> > here's also a tiny url to the same article:

http://tinyurl.com/eupqx

> > My best, Cynthia

>

> Cynthia, may I have your permission to post this to other AP Lists?

>

> That article is thought-provoking, but IMO, AP is much more than a

> placebo-evoked response!

>

> Human and animal research suggests that there is a neuro-humoral

> basis for AP that can be enhanced or inhibited by enhancing or

blocking

> neuro-humoral gates, etc.

>

> Also, I feel that the placebo explanation is much weaker when one

sees

> the clinical effects of AP in animals.

>

> I agree, however, that the THERAPIST-PATIENT interaction (whether

> the patient be human or animal) is critical to success. One can

call this

> empathy, or subliminal Qigong or what you like.

>

> IMO, some therapists are much better natural intuitives/healers

than

> others. IMO, those gifts/abilities are innate - i.e.conscious

effort or

> training has little chance of drastically increasing a therapist's

innate

> abilities. Yes, one can cultivate empathy, communication skills

and

> technical knowledge/skills, etc. But if one cannot look another

squarely

> and openly in the eyes, training is unlikely to alter that much.

>

> IMO, much of the therapist's success hinges on self-belief / self-

> confidence balanced by humility, quashing of the ego while

working,

> consciousness of fallibility, honesty and recognition of one's

limitations.

>

> The self-confidence angle is maximal when the therapist has worked

> hard to understand the paradigm (theory and practice) within which

> he/she works. Confidence increases with experience and with good

to

> very good to excellent clinical results.

>

> And, yes, the PATIENT (human or animal) has a role to play.

>

> Some people NEED (usually temporary) medical problems as an

> expression of attention-seeking behaviour (from their

partner/family/

> boss, etc), or as a safety release to escape from worse stresses.

> Success rates in such people, IMO, will be less than in optimistic

> positive-thinking people.

>

> Best regards,

>

>