BOOKMARK: URL for file on Wiseman's Terminology

[Guest guest]

I realize this dictionary represents a Herculean effort, but it often leaves

me scratching my head. The Chinese terms are translated into the English

language, but often not the one I am familiar with.

 

 

 

Bart Paulding, LAc

 

 

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Phil

Rogers

Friday, September 15, 2006 3:18 PM

Pa-l ; PVA-L ;

Chinese Medicine

Cc: Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine ; VBMA;

EVHMA

BOOKMARK: URL for file on Wiseman's Terminology

 

 

 

Hi All,

 

You may want to BOOKMARK this if you have not found it already.

 

I mislaid the URL for the WWW file on Wiseman's Terminology. It was

hard to find it again, but I found it eventually. Here is the tinyurl:

http://tinyurl. <http://tinyurl.com/p29nc> com/p29nc

 

Chinese-English Dictionary of : Nigel Wiseman's most

comprehensive compilation of TCM Terminology (in Hanzi, Pinyin, Latin

& English) on WWW. It covers terms used in TCM Theory, Syndromes,

Acupoint Names, Herb Names, Formula Names, etc. The file can be

copied for private use.

 

Best regards,

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

 

You may want to BOOKMARK this if you have not found it already.

 

I mislaid the URL for the WWW file on Wiseman's Terminology. It was

hard to find it again, but I found it eventually. Here is the tinyurl:

http://tinyurl.com/p29nc

 

Chinese-English Dictionary of : Nigel Wiseman's most

comprehensive compilation of TCM Terminology (in Hanzi, Pinyin, Latin

& English) on WWW. It covers terms used in TCM Theory, Syndromes,

Acupoint Names, Herb Names, Formula Names, etc. The file can be

copied for private use.

 

Best regards,

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

hi phil

 

it doesnt work..?

 

Peter

 

On 9/15/06, < wrote:

>

> Hi All,

>

> You may want to BOOKMARK this if you have not found it already.

>

> I mislaid the URL for the WWW file on Wiseman's Terminology. It was

> hard to find it again, but I found it eventually. Here is the tinyurl:

> http://tinyurl.com/p29nc

>

> Chinese-English Dictionary of : Nigel Wiseman's most

> comprehensive compilation of TCM Terminology (in Hanzi, Pinyin, Latin

> & English) on WWW. It covers terms used in TCM Theory, Syndromes,

> Acupoint Names, Herb Names, Formula Names, etc. The file can be

> copied for private use.

>

> Best regards,

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I realize this dictionary represents a Herculean effort, but it often leaves

me scratching my head. The Chinese terms are translated into the English

language, but often not the one I am familiar with.

 

 

 

Bart Paulding, LAc

 

 

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Phil

Rogers

Friday, September 15, 2006 3:18 PM

Pa-l ; PVA-L ;

Chinese Medicine

Cc: Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine ; VBMA;

EVHMA

BOOKMARK: URL for file on Wiseman's Terminology

 

 

 

Hi All,

 

You may want to BOOKMARK this if you have not found it already.

 

I mislaid the URL for the WWW file on Wiseman's Terminology. It was

hard to find it again, but I found it eventually. Here is the tinyurl:

http://tinyurl. <http://tinyurl.com/p29nc> com/p29nc

 

Chinese-English Dictionary of : Nigel Wiseman's most

comprehensive compilation of TCM Terminology (in Hanzi, Pinyin, Latin

& English) on WWW. It covers terms used in TCM Theory, Syndromes,

Acupoint Names, Herb Names, Formula Names, etc. The file can be

copied for private use.

 

Best regards,

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Bart, you might want to read the essay by Nigel Wiseman contained

in the file " AntiTerm.pdf "

It's on the same url (Jason's website)

Chinese Medicine/uploads/File/Pract/Translation/

 

I'm sure it will answer lots of questions...

 

Herman

 

, " gbp " <gbp3 wrote:

>

> I realize this dictionary represents a Herculean effort, but it

often leaves

> me scratching my head. The Chinese terms are translated into the

English

> language, but often not the one I am familiar with.

>

>

>

> Bart Paulding, LAc

>

>

>

> _____

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

Phil

> Rogers

> Friday, September 15, 2006 3:18 PM

> Pa-l ; PVA-L ;

> Chinese Medicine

> Cc: Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine ; VBMA;

> EVHMA

> BOOKMARK: URL for file on Wiseman's Terminology

>

>

>

> Hi All,

>

> You may want to BOOKMARK this if you have not found it already.

>

> I mislaid the URL for the WWW file on Wiseman's Terminology. It

was

> hard to find it again, but I found it eventually. Here is the

tinyurl:

> http://tinyurl. <http://tinyurl.com/p29nc> com/p29nc

>

> Chinese-English Dictionary of : Nigel Wiseman's

most

> comprehensive compilation of TCM Terminology (in Hanzi, Pinyin,

Latin

> & English) on WWW. It covers terms used in TCM Theory, Syndromes,

> Acupoint Names, Herb Names, Formula Names, etc. The file can be

> copied for private use.

>

> Best regards,

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bart,

 

 

 

There is much debate on which words are best. Although some choices are

clearly wrong, in regard to others there surely is no right answer. As has

been pointed out many times in the past, the most important thing is that

the reader has a clear understanding of what the Chinese means. This is

either through 1) obvious transparency or 2) being able to look up the

Chinese Characters / Definition through a dictionary. Neither approach is

without potential flaws. One should note many words (/terms) that we learned

years ago represent inaccuracies in the Chinese concept / word. Sometimes

this was from Chinese teachers that just did not have the proper English

language skills to express concepts correctly. Sometimes this was from

oversimplification issues. Either way, now our profession has evolved and we

demand to know where a given term comes from, meaning what Chinese word they

represent. Hence the publicly available glosses (Eastland Press, Wiseman)

for unclear terms.

 

 

 

It is true, that many people do not like Wiseman's choices, but on the whole

it enables the user to cross reference the Chinese. The beauty of human

existence is that everyone has choices and people see things through

different lenses. We can learn from these different approaches. People

express things in different ways and this act alone can broaden one's

understanding of the concept at hand. Looking at the various term choices

(Wiseman, Bensky, Unschuld, etc.), even if different than what you have

learned, can not only broaden your understanding of the term, but many times

add clarity to your understanding. One English term might emphasize X

attribute and another might emphasize Y attribute. If one does not like

someone's terms you have the choice to express it anyway you like (within

reason). In doing so one would be wise to make sure you have an accurate

expression in the situation at hand, and/ or reference it to the Chinese

character. For a HTML link for the Eastland Press (Bensky) and Wiseman

glosses check out:

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine/index.php?page=terminology

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Herman Oving

Sunday, September 17, 2006 6:16 AM

 

Re: BOOKMARK: URL for file on Wiseman's Terminology

 

 

 

Hi Bart, you might want to read the essay by Nigel Wiseman contained

in the file " AntiTerm.pdf "

It's on the same url (Jason's website)

http://www.chinesem

<Chinese Medicine/uploads/File/Pract/Translation/>

edicinedoc.com/uploads/File/Pract/Translation/

 

I'm sure it will answer lots of questions...

 

Herman

 

@ <%40>

, " gbp " <gbp3 wrote:

>

> I realize this dictionary represents a Herculean effort, but it

often leaves

> me scratching my head. The Chinese terms are translated into the

English

> language, but often not the one I am familiar with.

>

>

>

> Bart Paulding, LAc

>

>

>

> _____

>

> Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40>

Chinese_Medicine

> [Traditional_

<Chinese Medicine%40>

Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of

Phil

> Rogers

> Friday, September 15, 2006 3:18 PM

> Pa-l (AT) (DOT) <Pa-l%40> com;

PVA-L (AT) (DOT) <PVA-L%40> com;

> Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40>

Chinese_Medicine

> Cc: Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine@ <Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine%40>

; VBMA;

> EVHMA (AT) (DOT) <EVHMA%40> com

> BOOKMARK: URL for file on Wiseman's Terminology

>

>

>

> Hi All,

>

> You may want to BOOKMARK this if you have not found it already.

>

> I mislaid the URL for the WWW file on Wiseman's Terminology. It

was

> hard to find it again, but I found it eventually. Here is the

tinyurl:

> http://tinyurl. <http://tinyurl. <http://tinyurl.com/p29nc> com/p29nc>

com/p29nc

>

> Chinese-English Dictionary of : Nigel Wiseman's

most

> comprehensive compilation of TCM Terminology (in Hanzi, Pinyin,

Latin

> & English) on WWW. It covers terms used in TCM Theory, Syndromes,

> Acupoint Names, Herb Names, Formula Names, etc. The file can be

> copied for private use.

>

> Best regards,

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't mean to disparage Wiseman one bit, because I have not translated

anything, nor do I pretend to have the ability, but I would rather have the

translator just take his best unambiguous shot. Alternatives could be

handled with footnotes. Maybe I'm merely lazy, but I would rather have the

translator chew over the words, rather than dumping it on me. I have

hundred of TCM books. Ones that are too Wiseman-ish tend to gather dust

 

 

 

Bart

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

Sunday, September 17, 2006 10:52 AM

 

RE: Re: BOOKMARK: URL for file on Wiseman's Terminology

 

 

 

Bart,

 

There is much debate on which words are best. Although some choices are

clearly wrong, in regard to others there surely is no right answer. As has

been pointed out many times in the past, the most important thing is that

the reader has a clear understanding of what the Chinese means. This is

either through 1) obvious transparency or 2) being able to look up the

Chinese Characters / Definition through a dictionary. Neither approach is

without potential flaws. One should note many words (/terms) that we learned

years ago represent inaccuracies in the Chinese concept / word. Sometimes

this was from Chinese teachers that just did not have the proper English

language skills to express concepts correctly. Sometimes this was from

oversimplification issues. Either way, now our profession has evolved and we

demand to know where a given term comes from, meaning what Chinese word they

represent. Hence the publicly available glosses (Eastland Press, Wiseman)

for unclear terms.

 

It is true, that many people do not like Wiseman's choices, but on the whole

it enables the user to cross reference the Chinese. The beauty of human

existence is that everyone has choices and people see things through

different lenses. We can learn from these different approaches. People

express things in different ways and this act alone can broaden one's

understanding of the concept at hand. Looking at the various term choices

(Wiseman, Bensky, Unschuld, etc.), even if different than what you have

learned, can not only broaden your understanding of the term, but many times

add clarity to your understanding. One English term might emphasize X

attribute and another might emphasize Y attribute. If one does not like

someone's terms you have the choice to express it anyway you like (within

reason). In doing so one would be wise to make sure you have an accurate

expression in the situation at hand, and/ or reference it to the Chinese

character. For a HTML link for the Eastland Press (Bensky) and Wiseman

glosses check out:

 

http://www.chinesem

<Chinese Medicine/index.php?page=terminology>

edicinedoc.com/index.php?page=terminology

 

-

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

 

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of Herman Oving

Sunday, September 17, 2006 6:16 AM

@ <%40>

 

Re: BOOKMARK: URL for file on Wiseman's Terminology

 

Hi Bart, you might want to read the essay by Nigel Wiseman contained

in the file " AntiTerm.pdf "

It's on the same url (Jason's website)

http://www.chinesem

<http://www.chinesem

<Chinese Medicine/uploads/File/Pract/Translation/>

edicinedoc.com/uploads/File/Pract/Translation/>

edicinedoc.com/uploads/File/Pract/Translation/

 

I'm sure it will answer lots of questions...

 

Herman

 

@ <%40>

, " gbp " <gbp3 wrote:

>

> I realize this dictionary represents a Herculean effort, but it

often leaves

> me scratching my head. The Chinese terms are translated into the

English

> language, but often not the one I am familiar with.

>

>

>

> Bart Paulding, LAc

>

>

>

> _____

>

> Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40>

Chinese_Medicine@ <Chinese_Medicine%40>

 

> [Traditional_

<Chinese Medicine%40>

Chinese_Medicine@ <Chinese_Medicine%40>

] On Behalf Of

Phil

> Rogers

> Friday, September 15, 2006 3:18 PM

> Pa-l (AT) (DOT) <Pa-l%40> com;

PVA-L (AT) (DOT) <PVA-L%40> com;

> Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40>

Chinese_Medicine@ <Chinese_Medicine%40>

 

> Cc: Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine@ <Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine%40>

; VBMA;

> EVHMA (AT) (DOT) <EVHMA%40> com

> BOOKMARK: URL for file on Wiseman's Terminology

>

>

>

> Hi All,

>

> You may want to BOOKMARK this if you have not found it already.

>

> I mislaid the URL for the WWW file on Wiseman's Terminology. It

was

> hard to find it again, but I found it eventually. Here is the

tinyurl:

> http://tinyurl. <http://tinyurl. <http://tinyurl.

<http://tinyurl.com/p29nc> com/p29nc> com/p29nc>

com/p29nc

>

> Chinese-English Dictionary of : Nigel Wiseman's

most

> comprehensive compilation of TCM Terminology (in Hanzi, Pinyin,

Latin

> & English) on WWW. It covers terms used in TCM Theory, Syndromes,

> Acupoint Names, Herb Names, Formula Names, etc. The file can be

> copied for private use.

>

> Best regards,

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " gbp " <gbp3 wrote:

Maybe I'm merely lazy, but I would rather have the

> translator chew over the words, rather than dumping it on me.

 

Hopefully the translator has good teeth!

 

I helped a huge, multimillion dollar Chinese publishing company recruit

CM translators. You cannot imagine how difficult it is to find people

with the right skill set. You really don't want to be at the mercy of

the average translator when it comes to personal interpretation of

concepts, there is no guarantee that they will be right.

 

Eric Brand

[Guest guest]

Very well stated, Jason. You summed up all the essential points.

 

 

 

On Sep 17, 2006, at 10:52 AM, wrote:

 

> Bart,

>

> There is much debate on which words are best. Although some choices

> are

> clearly wrong, in regard to others there surely is no right answer.

> As has

> been pointed out many times in the past, the most important thing

> is that

> the reader has a clear understanding of what the Chinese means.

> This is

> either through 1) obvious transparency or 2) being able to look up the

> Chinese Characters / Definition through a dictionary. Neither

> approach is

> without potential flaws. One should note many words (/terms) that

> we learned

> years ago represent inaccuracies in the Chinese concept / word.

> Sometimes

> this was from Chinese teachers that just did not have the proper

> English

> language skills to express concepts correctly. Sometimes this was from

> oversimplification issues. Either way, now our profession has

> evolved and we

> demand to know where a given term comes from, meaning what Chinese

> word they

> represent. Hence the publicly available glosses (Eastland Press,

> Wiseman)

> for unclear terms.

>

> It is true, that many people do not like Wiseman's choices, but on

> the whole

> it enables the user to cross reference the Chinese. The beauty of

> human

> existence is that everyone has choices and people see things through

> different lenses. We can learn from these different approaches. People

> express things in different ways and this act alone can broaden one's

> understanding of the concept at hand. Looking at the various term

> choices

> (Wiseman, Bensky, Unschuld, etc.), even if different than what you

> have

> learned, can not only broaden your understanding of the term, but

> many times

> add clarity to your understanding. One English term might emphasize X

> attribute and another might emphasize Y attribute. If one does not

> like

> someone's terms you have the choice to express it anyway you like

> (within

> reason). In doing so one would be wise to make sure you have an

> accurate

> expression in the situation at hand, and/ or reference it to the

> Chinese

> character. For a HTML link for the Eastland Press (Bensky) and Wiseman

> glosses check out:

>

> Chinese Medicine/index.php?page=terminology

>

> -

>

> _____

>

>

> On Behalf Of Herman Oving

> Sunday, September 17, 2006 6:16 AM

>

> Re: BOOKMARK: URL for file on Wiseman's

> Terminology

>

> Hi Bart, you might want to read the essay by Nigel Wiseman contained

> in the file " AntiTerm.pdf "

> It's on the same url (Jason's website)

> http://www.chinesem

> <Chinese Medicine/uploads/File/Pract/Translation/>

> edicinedoc.com/uploads/File/Pract/Translation/

>

> I'm sure it will answer lots of questions...

>

> Herman

>

> @ <%

> 40>

> , " gbp " <gbp3 wrote:

> >

> > I realize this dictionary represents a Herculean effort, but it

> often leaves

> > me scratching my head. The Chinese terms are translated into the

> English

> > language, but often not the one I am familiar with.

> >

> >

> >

> > Bart Paulding, LAc

> >

> >

> >

> > _____

> >

> > Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%

> 40>

> Chinese_Medicine

> > [Traditional_

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of

> Phil

> > Rogers

> > Friday, September 15, 2006 3:18 PM

> > Pa-l (AT) (DOT) <Pa-l%40> com;

> PVA-L (AT) (DOT) <PVA-L%40> com;

> > Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40>

> Chinese_Medicine

> > Cc: Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine@ <Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine%

> 40>

> ; VBMA;

> > EVHMA (AT) (DOT) <EVHMA%40> com

> > BOOKMARK: URL for file on Wiseman's Terminology

> >

> >

> >

> > Hi All,

> >

> > You may want to BOOKMARK this if you have not found it already.

> >

> > I mislaid the URL for the WWW file on Wiseman's Terminology. It

> was

> > hard to find it again, but I found it eventually. Here is the

> tinyurl:

> > http://tinyurl. <http://tinyurl. <http://tinyurl.com/p29nc> com/

> p29nc>

> com/p29nc

> >

> > Chinese-English Dictionary of : Nigel Wiseman's

> most

> > comprehensive compilation of TCM Terminology (in Hanzi, Pinyin,

> Latin

> > & English) on WWW. It covers terms used in TCM Theory, Syndromes,

> > Acupoint Names, Herb Names, Formula Names, etc. The file can be

> > copied for private use.

> >

> > Best regards,

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Bart,

 

If its any consolation, the language used in Chinese medicine is not generally

understood by those fluent in Chinese either, unless they are trained in Chinese

medicine.

 

In other words, and to be perfectly frank, get over it and learn the language

of Chinese medicine.

 

Sorry if that is harsh but I am sick and tired of listening to people make

statement such as yours. You want to practice medicine, oh excuse me not

medicine we can't say that.............. than learn the language of the

medicine, not some whitewashed BS you have been fed by translation mills of the

past (and unfortunately the present).

 

For the record, I don't believe that all the choices in the PD are perfect or

should be adhered to strictly. There's no such thing when it comes to

translation. I also believe it to be true that Wiseman and Feng don't believe

people should adhere to it absolutely either. However, it is the only standard

available and unless you want to write your own learn the one we have.

 

 

Thomas

 

 

 

Faculty Department of Complementary and Alternative Medicine

John Burns School of Medicine University of Hawai'i Manoa

Honolulu, HI

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hey Tom,

 

 

 

I really wasn't looking for consolation; I was just voicing my humble

opinion. You can now climb down from your imperious high horse.

 

 

 

Bart

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

Tuesday, September 19, 2006 12:54 AM

 

Re: BOOKMARK: URL for file on Wiseman's Terminology

 

 

 

Bart,

 

If its any consolation, the language used in Chinese medicine is not

generally understood by those fluent in Chinese either, unless they are

trained in Chinese medicine.

 

In other words, and to be perfectly frank, get over it and learn the

language of Chinese medicine.

 

Sorry if that is harsh but I am sick and tired of listening to people make

statement such as yours. You want to practice medicine, oh excuse me not

medicine we can't say that.............. than learn the language of the

medicine, not some whitewashed BS you have been fed by translation mills of

the past (and unfortunately the present).

 

For the record, I don't believe that all the choices in the PD are perfect

or should be adhered to strictly. There's no such thing when it comes to

translation. I also believe it to be true that Wiseman and Feng don't

believe people should adhere to it absolutely either. However, it is the

only standard available and unless you want to write your own learn the one

we have.

 

 

Thomas

 

 

Faculty Department of Complementary and Alternative Medicine

John Burns School of Medicine University of Hawai'i Manoa

Honolulu, HI

@ %40>

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thomas,

 

Your point about native Chinese-speakers not understanding the Chinese

medical terminology is right on the mark. I have a really diligent and

bright student in the little translation class I teach and he happens

to be married to a bright, young Chinese woman who is a college

graduate. Whenever he tries to ask her what a word or phrase means in

a Chinese medical book or journal article, she typically has no idea.

It's all French to her.

 

Bottom line, one does have to learn this terminology as part of one's

" initiation " into the profession whether that initiation takes place

in school or not, in China or in the West. In fact, the existence of a

such a professional terminology which is opaque to outsiders is one of

the hallmarks of a profession.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

Bart,

 

I know of no high horse from which I sit. In fact, I stand here today with my

feet in the mud, shoveling from the trenches, and there is nothing I am sure of

except that Western practitioners of Chinese medicine are some of the laziest

" professionals " I have ever had the occasion to meet and your complaining about

having to learn terminology is a case in point. I could easily rest my case on

it, but why not rattle on.

 

While I don't think all those out there are lazy it has been my experience as

a student, practitioner, and teacher that people don't REALLY want to learn

Chinese medicine. Often I think they came to CM because they couldn't get into

medical school or didn't want to work that hard, or some other marginal reason.

But Bart, its not your fault. Frankly, the educational system for CM is a joke,

which is exemplified by the fact that you can earn a masters degree without

REALLY having to work (or even needing a BA of BS) and you can earn a doctorate

in one weekend a month for two years.................

 

For the record, I originally learned CM without the aid of the PD, but when it

came out I was thrilled to have such a reference. Furthermore, as I learn more

about CM and Chinese language I can EASILY see the value -- and necessity -- of

the work.

 

Take care,

Thomas

 

 

 

Faculty Department of Complementary and Alternative Medicine

John Burns School of Medicine University of Hawai'i Manoa

Honolulu, HI

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

OK, this is one of those conversations that won't be especially productive. To

me Bart's

original post seemed innocuous enough...

 

I realize this dictionary represents a Herculean effort, but it often leaves

me scratching my head. The Chinese terms are translated into the English

language, but often not the one I am familiar with.

 

Bart Paulding, LAc

 

I'm pretty conflicted about acupuncture education but I don't think many

students don't

study at the schools I am at. In fact the opposite is true. They are very

hard-working but

the organization of the curriculum is often skewed in priorities I wouldn't

choose. (And the

school's don't neccessarily choose either due to the State Boards.) There are a

lot, lot of

deficiencies but let's work to make them better.

 

I agree with Thomas that there are some real flakes out there but I only see it

getting

better and better in terms of who is coming into the schools.

 

So everybody please don't prescibe attitudes about your own feelings towards the

people

you reply to.

 

thanks,

doug

 

 

BTW... The Doctoral programs are 4 days a month, 12 hours a day or something.

 

 

That's fine but

Bart,

 

If its any consolation, the language used in Chinese medicine is not generally

understood by those fluent in Chinese either, unless they are trained in Chinese

medicine.

 

In other words, and to be perfectly frank, get over it and learn the language

of Chinese medicine.

 

Sorry if that is harsh but I am sick and tired of listening to people make

statement such as yours. You want to practice medicine, oh excuse me not

medicine we can't say that.............. than learn the language of the

medicine, not some whitewashed BS you have been fed by translation mills of the

past (and unfortunately the present).

 

For the record, I don't believe that all the choices in the PD are perfect or

should be adhered to strictly. There's no such thing when it comes to

translation. I also believe it to be true that Wiseman and Feng don't believe

people should adhere to it absolutely either. However, it is the only standard

available and unless you want to write your own learn the one we have.

 

 

Thomas

 

 

 

 

,

 

wrote:

>

> Bart,

>

> I know of no high horse from which I sit. In fact, I stand here today with

my feet in the

mud, shoveling from the trenches, and there is nothing I am sure of except that

Western

practitioners of Chinese medicine are some of the laziest " professionals " I have

ever had

the occasion to meet and your complaining about having to learn terminology is a

case in

point. I could easily rest my case on it, but why not rattle on.

>

> While I don't think all those out there are lazy it has been my experience

as a student,

practitioner, and teacher that people don't REALLY want to learn Chinese

medicine. Often I

think they came to CM because they couldn't get into medical school or didn't

want to

work that hard, or some other marginal reason. But Bart, its not your fault.

Frankly, the

educational system for CM is a joke, which is exemplified by the fact that you

can earn a

masters degree without REALLY having to work (or even needing a BA of BS) and

you can

earn a doctorate in one weekend a month for two years.................

>

> For the record, I originally learned CM without the aid of the PD, but when

it came out I

was thrilled to have such a reference. Furthermore, as I learn more about CM and

Chinese

language I can EASILY see the value -- and necessity -- of the work.

>

> Take care,

> Thomas

>

>

>

> Faculty Department of Complementary and Alternative Medicine

> John Burns School of Medicine University of Hawai'i Manoa

> Honolulu, HI

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thomas,

 

 

 

This thread has gone on for much too long, so let me apologize to list

members for, but I must reply to , etc., etc, etc,

etc........ You think you have me figured out from one email. I've been a

hard working practitioner of TCM for many years. You got one thing right,

it's not my fault there are lazy practitioners. And, I doubt if anyone one

the list is lazy, so I wonder why you ramble on, other than to puff yourself

up. If the educational system for CM is a joke, it looks to me like you're

part of it. I offered a simple offhand, and what I thought was a

non-confrontational comment about Wiseman's terminology. You're not

changing my mind. Get over it.

 

 

 

Bart Paulding, MS, LAc

 

 

 

_____

 

[]

Wednesday, September 20, 2006 11:24 AM

gbp3;

Re: BOOKMARK: URL for file on Wiseman's Terminology

 

 

 

Bart,

 

 

 

I know of no high horse from which I sit. In fact, I stand here today with

my feet in the mud, shoveling from the trenches, and there is nothing I am

sure of except that Western practitioners of Chinese medicine are some of

the laziest " professionals " I have ever had the occasion to meet and your

complaining about having to learn terminology is a case in point. I could

easily rest my case on it, but why not rattle on.

 

 

 

While I don't think all those out there are lazy it has been my experience

as a student, practitioner, and teacher that people don't REALLY want to

learn Chinese medicine. Often I think they came to CM because they couldn't

get into medical school or didn't want to work that hard, or some other

marginal reason. But Bart, its not your fault. Frankly, the educational

system for CM is a joke, which is exemplified by the fact that you can earn

a masters degree without REALLY having to work (or even needing a BA of BS)

and you can earn a doctorate in one weekend a month for two

years.................

 

 

 

For the record, I originally learned CM without the aid of the PD, but when

it came out I was thrilled to have such a reference. Furthermore, as I learn

more about CM and Chinese language I can EASILY see the value -- and

necessity -- of the work.

 

 

 

Take care,

 

Thomas

 

 

 

 

Faculty Department of Complementary and Alternative Medicine

John Burns School of Medicine University of Hawai'i Manoa

Honolulu, HI

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Bart,

 

You are right, I should not have written a word. My apologies for being so

confrontational. My critique is of the profession as a whole, not any one

individual.

 

BTW: I had no designs on your mind

 

Thomas

 

gbp <gbp3 wrote:

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}

st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Thomas,

 

This thread has gone on for much too long, so let me apologize to list members

for, but I must reply to , etc., etc, etc, etc……………….. You

think you have me figured out from one email. I’ve been a hard working

practitioner of TCM for many years. You got one thing right, it’s not my fault

there are lazy practitioners. And, I doubt if anyone one the list is lazy, so

I wonder why you ramble on, other than to puff yourself up. If the educational

system for CM is a joke, it looks to me like you’re part of it. I offered a

simple offhand, and what I thought was a non-confrontational comment about

Wiseman’s terminology. You’re not changing my mind. Get over it.

 

Bart Paulding, MS, LAc

 

 

 

 

[]

Wednesday, September 20, 2006 11:24 AM

gbp3;

Re: BOOKMARK: URL for file on Wiseman's Terminology

 

 

Bart,

 

 

 

I know of no high horse from which I sit. In fact, I stand here today with

my feet in the mud, shoveling from the trenches, and there is nothing I am sure

of except that Western practitioners of Chinese medicine are some of the laziest

" professionals " I have ever had the occasion to meet and your complaining about

having to learn terminology is a case in point. I could easily rest my case on

it, but why not rattle on.

 

 

 

While I don't think all those out there are lazy it has been my experience

as a student, practitioner, and teacher that people don't REALLY want to learn

Chinese medicine. Often I think they came to CM because they couldn't get into

medical school or didn't want to work that hard, or some other marginal reason.

But Bart, its not your fault. Frankly, the educational system for CM is a joke,

which is exemplified by the fact that you can earn a masters degree without

REALLY having to work (or even needing a BA of BS) and you can earn a doctorate

in one weekend a month for two years.................

 

 

 

For the record, I originally learned CM without the aid of the PD, but when

it came out I was thrilled to have such a reference. Furthermore, as I learn

more about CM and Chinese language I can EASILY see the value -- and necessity

-- of the work.

 

 

 

Take care,

 

Thomas

 

 

 

 

Faculty Department of Complementary and Alternative Medicine

John Burns School of Medicine University of Hawai'i Manoa

Honolulu, HI

 

 

 

 

 

 

Faculty Department of Complementary and Alternative Medicine

John Burns School of Medicine University of Hawai'i Manoa

Honolulu, HI

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thomas,

 

 

 

Accepted. No harm no foul.

 

 

 

Bart

 

 

 

_____

 

[]

Wednesday, September 20, 2006 9:13 PM

gbp;

RE: BOOKMARK: URL for file on Wiseman's Terminology

 

 

 

Bart,

 

 

 

You are right, I should not have written a word. My apologies for being so

confrontational. My critique is of the profession as a whole, not any one

individual.

 

 

 

BTW: I had no designs on your mind

 

 

 

Thomas

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

As a mea culpa - and at the same time hoping not to beat a dead horse - I

recommend Wiseman's Practical Dictionary of which makes his

CM terms much more user-friendly.

 

 

 

Bart

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thomas,

 

I feel your pain and frustration over the state of our profession's

education. However, it is my experience that, in figuring out where

problems really lie, " follow the money. " There simply is no economic

incentive to radically change the status quo. The current system works

too well for the economic stake-holders. This includes everything

beginning with the enrollment process. I don't think there's much use

in blaming the students.

 

Similarly, anyone who thinks that economics (and personalities) are

not involved in the " terminology debate " is niave. While various of us

can present our reasoned pros and cons to this or that terminology or

translational methodology, the lines that have been drawn in the sand

have been drawn largely for economic and secondarily for personal

reasons. Reason (as in rationality) is at least third down the line.

Anyone who fails to take this into account (especially as some of us

gear up for the AAOM terminology meeting) is not being realistic.

Unfortunately, no one can actually talk about these other factors

without being bashed for ad hominem " attacks. " That's why the

up-coming meeting is largely a farce. The real issues cannot be

politely voiced in public.

 

Those working in communication theory and marketing have long believed

that all people always make choices primarily based on emotional

factors, the foremost of which is WIIFM (what's in it for me). Our

rational arguments are always simply rationalizations. That's why

people don't typically change their minds (until or unless something

changes in their personal relationship to the issue at stake).

 

Just some advice from someone with a long history of tilting at

windmills. Keeping the above in mind helps me keep my blood pressure

under control. Come up with enough economic incentives to make it

profitable for things to change and they tend to do so very rapidly.

Even Elton John and Eminem got together on stage when it was

personally profitable to do so.

 

Bob