Western Herbs / Chinese Diagnostic system

[Guest guest]

Hello:

 

I searched around through my East/West books, and could not find

anything discussing the use of other than cannabis seeds in TCM.

The Ayurvedic literature, especially the Rasashastra, seems to use

the whole plant more readily.

 

At any rate, according to Dr. Chen, the first discussion of cannabis

in the TCM corpus, is in " The Divine Husbandmans' Classic of The

Materia Medica " .

 

Dr. Chen, and Michael Tierra note that seed products enter the

spleen, stomach, and large intestine; the seeds are sweet and/or

neutral.

 

The seeds are used for a variety of constipation types, and the oil

is used in various hair and scalp difficulties.

 

The common preparation method is dry-frying the crushed seeds; as a

powder; the essential oil; or (recently) as an alcohol extract used

as an antihypertensive.

 

I'm sure Needham has some interesting historical details too, but I

can't get to him right now.

.....................................

 

On the other hand, the Rasashastra system, such as described

in " Ocean of Indian Alchemy " ,

uses mostly the leaves and flowering portions, to produce " Bhanga " .

The preparation is used to balance Kapha; and vitiates Pitta. The

production involves soaking in water a day, drying, and then frying

in ghee. It is taken internally, with sugar, or milk. Used in

impotency, sprue syndrom, insomnia, depression, colic pain, and a

few other conditions.

 

I have heard of some more elaborate cannabis preparations in the

Tantric system, but these are specifically for the purpose of

intoxication in ritualized settings, and have no actual relationship

with medicinal uses.

 

Sorry, but I have no idea about the relationship of cannabis with

tongue diagnosis, and would like to learn about this matter too from

whoever has observed it.

......................................

 

To respond to your final question, Sandy, I too like to investigate

herbs from within, and outside the Chinese Materia Medica. I find

Dr. Holmes work " Energetics of Western Herbs " useful in this area,

as well as available materials from the Unani Tibb tradition, and

insights right out of Hippocrates. When time allows, I find it

beneficial to attempt " spagyric analysis " of herbs, to better

determine their " elemental/energetic " qualities. In a separate

post, I'll reprint an example of a " spagyric analysis " , from my

friend, Dr. G.

 

Best,

Dante

 

 

 

 

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " sandylaurel2003 "

<mountainlaurel wrote:

>

> Hi all,

> I have several clients who use western herbs on a regular basis:

one

> in particular I have become aware of is marijuana. I have noticed

> there is often a red stripe down the middle of the tongue when this

> herb is used heavily, and that the shen is compromised. (I'm

trying to

> be polite here) So I am wondering just how I might go about finding

> out about the herb: what meridians it enters, what effects it has

on

> the Liver, Heart and Stomach as well as other organs. I have heard

> some anecdotes, and I wonder who, if anyone, looks at herbs outside

> the Chinese Materia Medica with this sort of lens.

> Thanks in Advance for your assistance,

> Sandy River, LAc

>

[Guest guest]

Sandy (and other interested members):

 

Here is a succinct outline of how a spagyric analysis might be

performed, on either Western or Eastern herbs...interesting and

enlightening methods to investigate " energetics " in a concrete way:

 

 

Another interesting aspect of spagyrics is the analytical protocols

to

determine the elemental (ie how much and what proportion of " earth " ,

" water " , " air " , " fire " ) there is in a medicinal plant.

 

 

Basically these protocols involve submitting the dried and fresh

plant

material to element specific extraction techniques (sublimation,

distillation, extraction, calcination, coagulation etc.) in

specialized apparatus with specialized menstuums. The techniques used

can be complex. I'll try and give you a few examples.

 

Let's take Bo He (mint). Let us steam distll it and oversimplefy.

What

people refer to as " essential oil " in the case of mint generally can

be called by certain schools " volatile Sulphur " . But to answer your

question, the essential oil is representative of the Air and Fire in

Bo He. The essential oil is further worked by sublimation and

circulation to separate it into Air and Fire.

 

Now that's Mint. It's worked that way because of it's classification

and it's signature.

 

Let's get exotic and talk about the aerial parts of luo bou ma

(Apocynum venetum, NOT to be confused with it's american

cousin). Different classification and signature. Different method.

Here is an outline.

 

First thing we need is 1 liter of thunderstorm water. It is charged

by lightning and contains amonium nitrate from the atmosphere along

with many other interesting things. Sublimation and distilling

apparatus will separate it into what comes over first; 250 ml of

fire-water . Then the next 250 ml to come over is the air-water, the

next water-water etc. The PH of these fractions will be different.

Indentical samples of luo bou ma. are extracted with each of these

fractions. Thus the preliminary elemental division pf Luo bou ma is

done. There are other ways to do it.

 

Thus a plants energetics can also be manipulated by creating a

medicine with varying proportions.

 

I think this will give you an idea on how spagyric analysis is

conducted.

[Guest guest]

Hi Sandy,

 

My teacher in acupuncture school 20 years ago, Joanna

Zhao, did give us some insight into the energetic

effect of smoking marijuana. According to her, the

organs affected are Stomach, Liver, Heart (as you

say), plus Kidneys and Lungs. We also learned that

marijuana is Hotter than tobacco. I've never run

across info beyond this in any literature.

 

What I's also like to know is what energetic effect

sucking in hours worth of mugwort smoke has on the

system! I don't burn the loose stuff so much nowadays,

but I certainly served my time as a moxa slave in

internships years ago.

 

Regards,

Abigail Surasky, L.Ac.

 

 

Abigail Surasky, LAc

(Licensed Acupuncturist/Herbalist)

Women's Health, Obstetrics, Pediatrics, Chronic Illness, Digestion, Pain

2006 Dwight Way (Milvia), Suite 208

Berkeley, CA 94704

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tel. 510-845-8017 Fax 510-841-5551

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Sandy

I attended a workshop by Jost Sauer (www.jostsauer.com) which dealt

with the energetic aspects of the drug experience.

Jost Sauer is a writer, therapist and lecturer in TCM in Australia.

He's also an ex-drug user and has written a pretty amazing book called

Higher and Higher which is available on his site.

 

Jost stated that not alot had been written about marijuana in TCM

because they didn't really use it, ie they had opiates instead.

 

His book states: " Based on my fusion of TCM, Energy Medicine and

Body-Mind Therapy, I believe that each drug has a different property

and works via particular organs. Marijuana has a magnifiying property

and it operates primarily via the Liver. The Liver is responsible for

the smooth flow of qi. So under the influence of marijuana you can get

a heightened awareness of the Qi flowing. You may experience this as

a warm and pleasant sensation which spreads through out the body and

can be particularly strong in the abdominal area where the Liver is

located. The feeling can sometimes be so intense in this region that

you burst into spontaneous laughter, as you would if someine tickled

you in that spot. Because the Qi is flowing smoothly, you feel

content, happy and relaxed. "

 

He goes onto explain how it affects the HT, SP, LU and KD and what the

person experiences initially and how over time this changes into a

" not so positive " experience.

 

Here are some salient points that I took away from the seminar:

*There is a big distinction between marijuana grown naturally (in the

soil) and hydroponically (Hydro). Putting it simply Hydro uses

chemicals and water - not all producers follow the correct growing and

washing procedure and invariably, what the user is injesting or

inhaling are a whole bunch of added toxic chemicals. There has been

plenty of writing about how Hyrdo is viewed as a contributing factor

of anxiety disorders with prolonged used, especially in the the youth

of today.

 

He even drew an amazing 5 element shen/ko cycle diagram of the actions

of Hydro in particular. His theory is that while Marijuana is

predominantly yin in nature(see below), Hydro lacks yin (earth)

because it's grown in water.

 

*Drugs are designed to override blockages we have in our body and

flush the body and relevant organ with qi. View the organs as the

hardware and drugs as the software. Without an organ, drugs cannot

work as the organ translates and synthesises the drug code. Marijuana

used for pain management moves through the blockage in the

meridian/organ. Drugs use the organs to create higher states and

provide glimpses of perfect organ function.

 

At this point I think it's important to note that a magnifying drug

such as marijuana (as opposed to stimulating-amphetamines or

sedating-opiates) is hard to qualify in absolute terms as it requires

a user (an experience, an observer) to identify a value. Depending on

the user's particular current state (emotional, physical, spiritual)

each experience can be different.

 

*The effect of marijuana changes if the person is of a Yin or Yang

constitution. Different classes of drugs are yin or yang in nature.

Marijuana (grown in the soil) is Yin in nature but it's action is

either yin or yang depending on the users constitution. You will find

that some users can " advance and act " while having an experience and

others will " retreat and wait " .

 

Long time users often think it is harmless based on their " positive "

experiences but it still affects the human energy field. The side

effects of marijuana are complex and individual, subtle and

cumulative, creeping up over time. The process can be so slow that no

cause and effect connection between the symptoms and the drug is ever

made.

 

I could go on about treating the spirit, but perhaps that is best left

to each practitioner. I hope this helps.

Regards

Rossana

 

Chinese Medicine , " sandylaurel2003 "

<mountainlaurel wrote:

>

> Hi all,

> I have several clients who use western herbs on a regular basis: one

> in particular I have become aware of is marijuana. I have noticed

> there is often a red stripe down the middle of the tongue when this

> herb is used heavily, and that the shen is compromised. (I'm trying to

> be polite here) So I am wondering just how I might go about finding

> out about the herb: what meridians it enters, what effects it has on

> the Liver, Heart and Stomach as well as other organs. I have heard

> some anecdotes, and I wonder who, if anyone, looks at herbs outside

> the Chinese Materia Medica with this sort of lens.

> Thanks in Advance for your assistance,

> Sandy River, LAc

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Rosanna,

Thank you for the great response. I have a couple more questions,

brought up by your response.

 

> *The effect of marijuana changes if the person is of a Yin or Yang

> constitution. Different classes of drugs are yin or yang in

nature. You will find that some users can " advance and act " while

having an experience and others will " retreat and wait " .

 

I wonder about this, I know its true with marijuana, is it also true

with other herbs?

 

> Long time users often think it is harmless based on

their " positive " experiences but it still affects the human energy

field. The side effects of marijuana are complex and individual,

subtle and cumulative, creeping up over time. The process can be so

slow that no cause and effect connection between the symptoms and

the drug is ever made.

 

I wonder if it is common that the heat in the Stomach shows up in

some larger proportion of long term users? I saw the red tongue

stripe in a couple of clients, but not in all of them.

 

> At this point I think it's important to note that a magnifying drug

> such as marijuana (as opposed to stimulating-amphetamines or

> sedating-opiates) is hard to qualify in absolute terms as it

requires a user (an experience, an observer) to identify a value.

Depending on the user's particular current state (emotional,

physical, spiritual) each experience can be different.

 

I had never heard of a magnifier before, and it certainly makes

sense. The experience of using an herb or drug and finding out just

how it works medicinally is something I am interested in, although

only with certain substances. I am unwilling to use certain things

in myself.

So my question is this: is it fair to look at those couple of people

I treat, and then extrapolate that for some, pot will dump a bunch

of heat in the Stomach (hence the munchies and desire), and affect

the Heart Spirit in some way that makes the Heart Spirit less

available for connection with others?

In one particular client, I spoke about Stomach heat leading to

delerium, described its effects. She cut way back on her smoking

since then, and even has maybe quit. Her desire to healthier had

more grounds than my statement, but perhaps it helped.

 

I must say in afterword that I agree with someone else who posted

about the quality of websites we share. I am astounded and amazed

and disappointed in Michael Tierra's website and article on pot that

he would condone using it regularly. I know this shows my bias

against the use of that drug. It is a substance with a complex and

interesting social history. And it impacts American social history

in an interesting way, too.

 

Thanks for your comments, Rosanna

 

Sandy River, LAc

Maine USA

[Guest guest]

I was glad to be of assistance Sandy.

 

Firstly let me state outright that I am a student of energetic

" medicine " who uses the TCM " roadmaps " but also Hindu " roadmaps " of

the energy body. Therefore my diagnosis and treatment protocol using

the same information will be vastly different. The information that

was presented at the seminar was intended for a non TCM audience, even

though it was presented in a TCM format with a little blending of energy

medicine.

So I will answer your questions as best I can but please forgive me if

I am not able to go into specific TCM diagnosis pattern of excesses

and deficiencies.

 

I wrote:

*The effect of marijuana changes if the person is of a Yin or Yang

constitution. Different classes of drugs are yin or yang in

nature. You will find that some users can " advance and act " while

having an experience and others will " retreat and wait " .

 

And you asked:

> I wonder about this, I know its true with marijuana, is it also true

> with other herbs?

 

This specific area of discussion was centred around the discussion of

the effects of marijuana. Jost did not extend this concept to other

drugs. But what became clear was that different qualities of

different organs became affected.

 

He hypothesised that marijuana entered the 5E network at the Liver

while amphetamines (speed, coke, ecstasy and ice) entered at the

Spleen. Using the Liver and Spleen as examples, the drug experience

of marijuana brings out " happiness " in Liver and mangifies the flavour

of sweetness which resonates with the spleen (hence the term

" munchies " ). Amphetamines enter the network at the Spleen providing

mental clarity and focus (but no hunger) and the Liver's ability to

act with an element of patience (there's no question of not acting on

coke).

 

With heavy or long term use, marijuana creates irritability,

frustration (liver) and cravings and mental disfunction (spleen) while

amphetamines create different aspects of anger, violence (liver) and

paranoia, scattered thinking and memory blanks (spleen).

 

Upon re-reading it sounds a bit " flimsy " but the essence is that each

class of drug will bring out different qualities of the organs in

general and I am sure this is further " complicated " by the individuals

constitution (which maybe where you work) or emotional holding pattern

(which is where I work).

 

So while I can't specifically answer your " heat in the stomach "

question, might I suggest that you assume ALL the organs will be

affected in one way or another but that the type of drug used and the

person's constitution will guide you on which organs to treat first

and your diagnostic capabilities will tell you how to treat that organ

whether it be heat, damp or wind.

 

Also each person will be different depending on how often they use and

for how long and intensely.

 

Here were some other points about marijuana specifically:

When people try to give up they will experience

LV - irritability, frustration, problems with Hun

HT - anxiousness, insomnia, unsettled mind

SP - cravings, mental disfunction

LU - stuck in time and blame

KD - weak, passive aggressive behaviour patterns

 

Jost sees treating the liver of paramount importance due to the

importance of obtaining smooth flow of qi to help stabilise emotions,

and to enable regular sleep patterns ( " hun takes the mind and rests it

in the heart " ).

 

Herbs were a big part of his treatment strategy and strongly suggested

that if practitioners were not herbalists, then to work closely with one.

 

Having been an addict himself, Jost's approach was one of non

judgement and the gist of the seminar was helping people get off

drugs, not treating problems that arose as a result of using them -

however the practitioners job may include assisting them in this process.

 

He had a charming quote:

" Don't give something up, take something up. " A drug user's ability

to advance and act must be fostered at all times.

 

But to this I would add (and indeed I had it made into a sign for my

practice room): " Beware of programs selling change without change. "

 

Therefore his treatment protocol went beyond acupuncture and herbs.

He recommended protocols for diet, exercise, fostering creativity, qi

training, and encouraged people to look at their emotional holding

patterns as triggers for drug use.

 

Over and above all this, drug users get " a back door " connection to

the cosmic consciousness. People who have used drugs should be guided

in spiritual concepts to help them " reclaim their drug vision naturally " .

 

You also asked about Heart Spirit and it not being available for

connection with others - I concur that most definitely Heart Spirit

has been compromised but a first port of call is making it available

for connection with themselves. Hence why I think Jost's wholistic

approach to be a sound one. He went into some detail about what he

called " trigger people " and their spiritual and karmic relevance.

 

I hope this information assists you in your formulation of a treatment

strategy. Feel free to contact me off list for any info on the

emotional/spiritual aspects.

 

Best wishes and warm regards

Rossana

[Guest guest]

Hi, interesting topic, to which I would add two thoughts.

 

1) Dr. Hammer sees severe depletion in the Left Middle position of

the pulse in long term marijuana users.

2) A clinical note; my patient who has mild hypertension (not his PC)

and is controlled with medication was outraged in a situation at

work. He doubled his meds and still had 190/140. Ear points accounted

for a drop in 20 to 30 points immediatly in clinic but his " cure "

didn't come until the following Sat eve when he smoked pot and his

blood pressure returned to normal, for him.

 

Andy Lininger, L.Ac.

Clinical Faculty

The Natural Care Center at Woodwinds

 

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " rossana_lowgren "

<rossana wrote:

>

> I was glad to be of assistance Sandy.

>

> Firstly let me state outright that I am a student of energetic

> " medicine " who uses the TCM " roadmaps " but also Hindu " roadmaps " of

> the energy body. Therefore my diagnosis and treatment protocol

using

> the same information will be vastly different. The information that

> was presented at the seminar was intended for a non TCM audience,

even

> though it was presented in a TCM format with a little blending of

energy

> medicine.

> So I will answer your questions as best I can but please forgive me

if

> I am not able to go into specific TCM diagnosis pattern of excesses

> and deficiencies.

>

> I wrote:

> *The effect of marijuana changes if the person is of a Yin or Yang

> constitution. Different classes of drugs are yin or yang in

> nature. You will find that some users can " advance and act " while

> having an experience and others will " retreat and wait " .

>

> And you asked:

> > I wonder about this, I know its true with marijuana, is it also

true

> > with other herbs?

>

> This specific area of discussion was centred around the discussion

of

> the effects of marijuana. Jost did not extend this concept to other

> drugs. But what became clear was that different qualities of

> different organs became affected.

>

> He hypothesised that marijuana entered the 5E network at the Liver

> while amphetamines (speed, coke, ecstasy and ice) entered at the

> Spleen. Using the Liver and Spleen as examples, the drug experience

> of marijuana brings out " happiness " in Liver and mangifies the

flavour

> of sweetness which resonates with the spleen (hence the term

> " munchies " ). Amphetamines enter the network at the Spleen providing

> mental clarity and focus (but no hunger) and the Liver's ability to

> act with an element of patience (there's no question of not acting

on

> coke).

>

> With heavy or long term use, marijuana creates irritability,

> frustration (liver) and cravings and mental disfunction (spleen)

while

> amphetamines create different aspects of anger, violence (liver) and

> paranoia, scattered thinking and memory blanks (spleen).

>

> Upon re-reading it sounds a bit " flimsy " but the essence is that

each

> class of drug will bring out different qualities of the organs in

> general and I am sure this is further " complicated " by the

individuals

> constitution (which maybe where you work) or emotional holding

pattern

> (which is where I work).

>

> So while I can't specifically answer your " heat in the stomach "

> question, might I suggest that you assume ALL the organs will be

> affected in one way or another but that the type of drug used and

the

> person's constitution will guide you on which organs to treat first

> and your diagnostic capabilities will tell you how to treat that

organ

> whether it be heat, damp or wind.

>

> Also each person will be different depending on how often they use

and

> for how long and intensely.

>

> Here were some other points about marijuana specifically:

> When people try to give up they will experience

> LV - irritability, frustration, problems with Hun

> HT - anxiousness, insomnia, unsettled mind

> SP - cravings, mental disfunction

> LU - stuck in time and blame

> KD - weak, passive aggressive behaviour patterns

>

> Jost sees treating the liver of paramount importance due to the

> importance of obtaining smooth flow of qi to help stabilise

emotions,

> and to enable regular sleep patterns ( " hun takes the mind and rests

it

> in the heart " ).

>

> Herbs were a big part of his treatment strategy and strongly

suggested

> that if practitioners were not herbalists, then to work closely

with one.

>

> Having been an addict himself, Jost's approach was one of non

> judgement and the gist of the seminar was helping people get off

> drugs, not treating problems that arose as a result of using them -

> however the practitioners job may include assisting them in this

process.

>

> He had a charming quote:

> " Don't give something up, take something up. " A drug user's ability

> to advance and act must be fostered at all times.

>

> But to this I would add (and indeed I had it made into a sign for my

> practice room): " Beware of programs selling change without change. "

>

> Therefore his treatment protocol went beyond acupuncture and herbs.

> He recommended protocols for diet, exercise, fostering creativity,

qi

> training, and encouraged people to look at their emotional holding

> patterns as triggers for drug use.

>

> Over and above all this, drug users get " a back door " connection to

> the cosmic consciousness. People who have used drugs should be

guided

> in spiritual concepts to help them " reclaim their drug vision

naturally " .

>

> You also asked about Heart Spirit and it not being available for

> connection with others - I concur that most definitely Heart Spirit

> has been compromised but a first port of call is making it available

> for connection with themselves. Hence why I think Jost's wholistic

> approach to be a sound one. He went into some detail about what he

> called " trigger people " and their spiritual and karmic relevance.

>

> I hope this information assists you in your formulation of a

treatment

> strategy. Feel free to contact me off list for any info on the

> emotional/spiritual aspects.

>

> Best wishes and warm regards

> Rossana

>

[Guest guest]

Regarding marijuana, Dr. Hammer also states that marijuana is one of

the cooling substances and tends to drain the qi and yang of the

Liver. With excessive use, the left middle position can even become

Empty (Hammer terminology) as with hepatitis or mononucleosis. I have

seen this often in my practice.

 

Perhaps this is why your patient's pressure dropped.

 

Ross

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " C. A. Lininger "

<calininger

wrote:

>

> Hi, interesting topic, to which I would add two thoughts.

>

> 1) Dr. Hammer sees severe depletion in the Left Middle position of

> the pulse in long term marijuana users.

> 2) A clinical note; my patient who has mild hypertension (not his PC)

> and is controlled with medication was outraged in a situation at

> work. He doubled his meds and still had 190/140. Ear points accounted

> for a drop in 20 to 30 points immediatly in clinic but his " cure "

> didn't come until the following Sat eve when he smoked pot and his

> blood pressure returned to normal, for him.

>

> Andy Lininger, L.Ac.

> Clinical Faculty

> The Natural Care Center at Woodwinds

>

> --- In

> Chinese Medicine , " rossana_lowgren "

> <rossana@> wrote:

> >

> > I was glad to be of assistance Sandy.

> >

> > Firstly let me state outright that I am a student of energetic

> > " medicine " who uses the TCM " roadmaps " but also Hindu " roadmaps " of

> > the energy body. Therefore my diagnosis and treatment protocol

> using

> > the same information will be vastly different. The information that

> > was presented at the seminar was intended for a non TCM audience,

> even

> > though it was presented in a TCM format with a little blending of

> energy

> > medicine.

> > So I will answer your questions as best I can but please forgive me

> if

> > I am not able to go into specific TCM diagnosis pattern of excesses

> > and deficiencies.

> >

> > I wrote:

> > *The effect of marijuana changes if the person is of a Yin or Yang

> > constitution. Different classes of drugs are yin or yang in

> > nature. You will find that some users can " advance and act " while

> > having an experience and others will " retreat and wait " .

> >

> > And you asked:

> > > I wonder about this, I know its true with marijuana, is it also

> true

> > > with other herbs?

> >

> > This specific area of discussion was centred around the discussion

> of

> > the effects of marijuana. Jost did not extend this concept to other

> > drugs. But what became clear was that different qualities of

> > different organs became affected.

> >

> > He hypothesised that marijuana entered the 5E network at the Liver

> > while amphetamines (speed, coke, ecstasy and ice) entered at the

> > Spleen. Using the Liver and Spleen as examples, the drug experience

> > of marijuana brings out " happiness " in Liver and mangifies the

> flavour

> > of sweetness which resonates with the spleen (hence the term

> > " munchies " ). Amphetamines enter the network at the Spleen providing

> > mental clarity and focus (but no hunger) and the Liver's ability to

> > act with an element of patience (there's no question of not acting

> on

> > coke).

> >

> > With heavy or long term use, marijuana creates irritability,

> > frustration (liver) and cravings and mental disfunction (spleen)

> while

> > amphetamines create different aspects of anger, violence (liver) and

> > paranoia, scattered thinking and memory blanks (spleen).

> >

> > Upon re-reading it sounds a bit " flimsy " but the essence is that

> each

> > class of drug will bring out different qualities of the organs in

> > general and I am sure this is further " complicated " by the

> individuals

> > constitution (which maybe where you work) or emotional holding

> pattern

> > (which is where I work).

> >

> > So while I can't specifically answer your " heat in the stomach "

> > question, might I suggest that you assume ALL the organs will be

> > affected in one way or another but that the type of drug used and

> the

> > person's constitution will guide you on which organs to treat first

> > and your diagnostic capabilities will tell you how to treat that

> organ

> > whether it be heat, damp or wind.

> >

> > Also each person will be different depending on how often they use

> and

> > for how long and intensely.

> >

> > Here were some other points about marijuana specifically:

> > When people try to give up they will experience

> > LV - irritability, frustration, problems with Hun

> > HT - anxiousness, insomnia, unsettled mind

> > SP - cravings, mental disfunction

> > LU - stuck in time and blame

> > KD - weak, passive aggressive behaviour patterns

> >

> > Jost sees treating the liver of paramount importance due to the

> > importance of obtaining smooth flow of qi to help stabilise

> emotions,

> > and to enable regular sleep patterns ( " hun takes the mind and rests

> it

> > in the heart " ).

> >

> > Herbs were a big part of his treatment strategy and strongly

> suggested

> > that if practitioners were not herbalists, then to work closely

> with one.

> >

> > Having been an addict himself, Jost's approach was one of non

> > judgement and the gist of the seminar was helping people get off

> > drugs, not treating problems that arose as a result of using them -

> > however the practitioners job may include assisting them in this

> process.

> >

> > He had a charming quote:

> > " Don't give something up, take something up. " A drug user's ability

> > to advance and act must be fostered at all times.

> >

> > But to this I would add (and indeed I had it made into a sign for my

> > practice room): " Beware of programs selling change without change. "

> >

> > Therefore his treatment protocol went beyond acupuncture and herbs.

> > He recommended protocols for diet, exercise, fostering creativity,

> qi

> > training, and encouraged people to look at their emotional holding

> > patterns as triggers for drug use.

> >

> > Over and above all this, drug users get " a back door " connection to

> > the cosmic consciousness. People who have used drugs should be

> guided

> > in spiritual concepts to help them " reclaim their drug vision

> naturally " .

> >

> > You also asked about Heart Spirit and it not being available for

> > connection with others - I concur that most definitely Heart Spirit

> > has been compromised but a first port of call is making it available

> > for connection with themselves. Hence why I think Jost's wholistic

> > approach to be a sound one. He went into some detail about what he

> > called " trigger people " and their spiritual and karmic relevance.

> >

> > I hope this information assists you in your formulation of a

> treatment

> > strategy. Feel free to contact me off list for any info on the

> > emotional/spiritual aspects.

> >

> > Best wishes and warm regards

> > Rossana

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I've found that extended use of cannabis drains the Liver and Kidney Yin,

causing Liver Qi stagnation and Liver Yang rising.

 

Kind regards,

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM

+44 (0) 208 367 8378

enquiries

www.attiliodalberto.com <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/>

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of rossrosen

28 July 2006 19:33

Chinese Medicine

Re: Western Herbs / Chinese Diagnostic system

 

 

 

Regarding marijuana, Dr. Hammer also states that marijuana is one of

the cooling substances and tends to drain the qi and yang of the

Liver. With excessive use, the left middle position can even become

Empty (Hammer terminology) as with hepatitis or mononucleosis. I have

seen this often in my practice.

 

Perhaps this is why your patient's pressure dropped.

 

Ross

 

Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40>

Chinese_Medicine , " C. A. Lininger " <calininger

wrote:

>

> Hi, interesting topic, to which I would add two thoughts.

>

> 1) Dr. Hammer sees severe depletion in the Left Middle position of

> the pulse in long term marijuana users.

> 2) A clinical note; my patient who has mild hypertension (not his PC)

> and is controlled with medication was outraged in a situation at

> work. He doubled his meds and still had 190/140. Ear points accounted

> for a drop in 20 to 30 points immediatly in clinic but his " cure "

> didn't come until the following Sat eve when he smoked pot and his

> blood pressure returned to normal, for him.

>

> Andy Lininger, L.Ac.

> Clinical Faculty

> The Natural Care Center at Woodwinds

>

> --- In

> Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40>

Chinese_Medicine , " rossana_lowgren "

> <rossana@> wrote:

> >

> > I was glad to be of assistance Sandy.

> >

> > Firstly let me state outright that I am a student of energetic

> > " medicine " who uses the TCM " roadmaps " but also Hindu " roadmaps " of

> > the energy body. Therefore my diagnosis and treatment protocol

> using

> > the same information will be vastly different. The information that

> > was presented at the seminar was intended for a non TCM audience,

> even

> > though it was presented in a TCM format with a little blending of

> energy

> > medicine.

> > So I will answer your questions as best I can but please forgive me

> if

> > I am not able to go into specific TCM diagnosis pattern of excesses

> > and deficiencies.

> >

> > I wrote:

> > *The effect of marijuana changes if the person is of a Yin or Yang

> > constitution. Different classes of drugs are yin or yang in

> > nature. You will find that some users can " advance and act " while

> > having an experience and others will " retreat and wait " .

> >

> > And you asked:

> > > I wonder about this, I know its true with marijuana, is it also

> true

> > > with other herbs?

> >

> > This specific area of discussion was centred around the discussion

> of

> > the effects of marijuana. Jost did not extend this concept to other

> > drugs. But what became clear was that different qualities of

> > different organs became affected.

> >

> > He hypothesised that marijuana entered the 5E network at the Liver

> > while amphetamines (speed, coke, ecstasy and ice) entered at the

> > Spleen. Using the Liver and Spleen as examples, the drug experience

> > of marijuana brings out " happiness " in Liver and mangifies the

> flavour

> > of sweetness which resonates with the spleen (hence the term

> > " munchies " ). Amphetamines enter the network at the Spleen providing

> > mental clarity and focus (but no hunger) and the Liver's ability to

> > act with an element of patience (there's no question of not acting

> on

> > coke).

> >

> > With heavy or long term use, marijuana creates irritability,

> > frustration (liver) and cravings and mental disfunction (spleen)

> while

> > amphetamines create different aspects of anger, violence (liver) and

> > paranoia, scattered thinking and memory blanks (spleen).

> >

> > Upon re-reading it sounds a bit " flimsy " but the essence is that

> each

> > class of drug will bring out different qualities of the organs in

> > general and I am sure this is further " complicated " by the

> individuals

> > constitution (which maybe where you work) or emotional holding

> pattern

> > (which is where I work).

> >

> > So while I can't specifically answer your " heat in the stomach "

> > question, might I suggest that you assume ALL the organs will be

> > affected in one way or another but that the type of drug used and

> the

> > person's constitution will guide you on which organs to treat first

> > and your diagnostic capabilities will tell you how to treat that

> organ

> > whether it be heat, damp or wind.

> >

> > Also each person will be different depending on how often they use

> and

> > for how long and intensely.

> >

> > Here were some other points about marijuana specifically:

> > When people try to give up they will experience

> > LV - irritability, frustration, problems with Hun

> > HT - anxiousness, insomnia, unsettled mind

> > SP - cravings, mental disfunction

> > LU - stuck in time and blame

> > KD - weak, passive aggressive behaviour patterns

> >

> > Jost sees treating the liver of paramount importance due to the

> > importance of obtaining smooth flow of qi to help stabilise

> emotions,

> > and to enable regular sleep patterns ( " hun takes the mind and rests

> it

> > in the heart " ).

> >

> > Herbs were a big part of his treatment strategy and strongly

> suggested

> > that if practitioners were not herbalists, then to work closely

> with one.

> >

> > Having been an addict himself, Jost's approach was one of non

> > judgement and the gist of the seminar was helping people get off

> > drugs, not treating problems that arose as a result of using them -

> > however the practitioners job may include assisting them in this

> process.

> >

> > He had a charming quote:

> > " Don't give something up, take something up. " A drug user's ability

> > to advance and act must be fostered at all times.

> >

> > But to this I would add (and indeed I had it made into a sign for my

> > practice room): " Beware of programs selling change without change. "

> >

> > Therefore his treatment protocol went beyond acupuncture and herbs.

> > He recommended protocols for diet, exercise, fostering creativity,

> qi

> > training, and encouraged people to look at their emotional holding

> > patterns as triggers for drug use.

> >

> > Over and above all this, drug users get " a back door " connection to

> > the cosmic consciousness. People who have used drugs should be

> guided

> > in spiritual concepts to help them " reclaim their drug vision

> naturally " .

> >

> > You also asked about Heart Spirit and it not being available for

> > connection with others - I concur that most definitely Heart Spirit

> > has been compromised but a first port of call is making it available

> > for connection with themselves. Hence why I think Jost's wholistic

> > approach to be a sound one. He went into some detail about what he

> > called " trigger people " and their spiritual and karmic relevance.

> >

> > I hope this information assists you in your formulation of a

> treatment

> > strategy. Feel free to contact me off list for any info on the

> > emotional/spiritual aspects.

> >

> > Best wishes and warm regards

> > Rossana

> >

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have the found the same effects, though there does seem to be some

variations according to use, ie. occasional v. chronic use,

constructive life purpose v. aimless life purpose (lack). Primarily

the long term effect is the draining of Will (Zhi), it's an

interesting perspective within the elemental exchange that the excess

demonstrates through the Lv, but the pathos is rooted in the Kd.

Further that the use is often to offset the Lv, but the pathos occurs

through that organ, often addiction has this model, it's just

fascinating and frustrating to effectively treat, not impossible, but

difficult.

Regards, Tymothy

 

 

>

> I've found that extended use of cannabis drains the Liver and Kidney

Yin,

> causing Liver Qi stagnation and Liver Yang rising.

>

> Kind regards,

>

> Attilio D'Alberto

> Doctor of (Beijing, China)

> BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM

> +44 (0) 208 367 8378

> enquiries

> www.attiliodalberto.com <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/>

>