Guest guest Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 What are her pulses like? Be especially detailed about the various depths of the liver. Jim Ramholz , " Marian Blum " wrote: The referral is mainly to treat her 'fibromyalgia' which keeps her up at night. Her hips and shoulders are severely achey. She " probably " has MS, first diagnosed (MRI) in the 80's but the disease has been slow and mild until now. Many of her present symptoms could be MS, could be drug side effects or interactions. >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 This to me is a 'red flag' patient. There is a lot more going on here than just 'fibromyalgia'. Klonopin is a very powerful CNS depressant drug, and depakote is an anti-seizure drug, sometimes used for manic depressive disorder. . . does she have seizures ? Plus, effexor, an antidepressent. Prevacid is for stomach acid and ulcers. . . does she have an ulcer, reflux, or do the other drugs hurt the stomach? Propanolol is a heart medication. . .does she have heart problems? Lipitor is for high cholesterol. Neurontin. . .all these are very powerful drugs to be taken together all at the same time. And, all of these are fairly serious conditions, if they are all present at the same time. As you mention, many of her symptoms could be drug side effects. We would have to isolate these, difficult with the many potential drug interactions, before considering the " probable MS " . Still, of course, take the pulse, look at the tongue, get a complete history. It sounds to me, however, that perhaps you should work with the psychiatrist who referred her to reduce some of the medications. Otherwise, the combination of very powerful medications may make it difficult to make headway (with herbal medicine). I'd start just with acupuncture and moxa, to regulate the almost certain qi chaos in the channels. On Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 08:04 PM, Marian Blum wrote: > Colleagues, > > A 68 year old woman has just come to me for treatment via a referral > from her psychiatrist. The referral is mainly to treat her > 'fibromyalgia' which keeps her up at night. Her hips and shoulders are > severely achey. She " probably " has MS, first diagnosed (MRI) in the > 80's > but the disease has been slow and mild until now. Many of her present > symptoms could be MS, could be drug side effects or interactions. The > medications she is currently on: Effexor, Prevacid, Neurontin, > Klonopin, > Propanolol, Depakote, Lipitor, and occasionally Imitrex. (I think the > psych and internist are communicating about the meds, at least.) > Without > going into further detail, I am daunted by the number of meds, some of > them hard on the liver, some affecting absorption (etc.) and I'm > concerned about just treating her patterns. I would be adding heat and > phlegm clearing and blood moving herbs to the soup. I know the standard > herb-drug interactions, mostly theoretical, to watch for, but when > there's just a lot of strong pharmaceuticals, I'm inclined to see that > as a red flag? Or does it really depend on each individual case? I am > going to first see whether acupuncture brings her relief. She is > suffering a great deal now and if herbs are indicated I would like her > to have them soon. I know some of you are experienced in knotty > diseases > in patients taking western meds--I'd be grateful for your opinions. > > Thank you, Marian > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.434 / Virus Database: 243 - Release 12/25/2002 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 It is also worth nothing that statin drugs can cause mild to severe myalgias. I've seen at least 4 patients whose body pain resolved COMPLETELY when that class of meds was discontinued. further: they are often prescribed at the expense of offering diet and lifestyle advice ( the basics: less fat, sugar, more exercise). They also deplete the bodies stores of Co-Q 10: precipitating a near epidemic of congestive heart failure. Cara > This to me is a 'red flag' patient. There is a lot more going on here > than just 'fibromyalgia'. Klonopin is a very powerful CNS depressant > drug, and depakote is an anti-seizure drug, sometimes used for manic > depressive disorder. . . does she have seizures ? Plus, effexor, an > antidepressent. Prevacid is for stomach acid and ulcers. . . does she > have an ulcer, reflux, or do the other drugs hurt the stomach? > Propanolol is a heart medication. . .does she have heart problems? > Lipitor is for high cholesterol. Neurontin. . .all these are very > powerful drugs to be taken together all at the same time. And, all of > these are fairly serious conditions, if they are all present at the > same time. > > As you mention, many of her symptoms could be drug side effects. We > would have to isolate these, difficult with the many potential drug > interactions, before considering the " probable MS " . > > Still, of course, take the pulse, look at the tongue, get a complete > history. > > It sounds to me, however, that perhaps you should work with the > psychiatrist who referred her to reduce some of the medications. > Otherwise, the combination of very powerful medications may make it > difficult to make headway (with herbal medicine). > > I'd start just with acupuncture and moxa, to regulate the almost > certain qi chaos in the channels. > > > On Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 08:04 PM, Marian Blum wrote: > >> Colleagues, >> >> A 68 year old woman has just come to me for treatment via a referral >> from her psychiatrist. The referral is mainly to treat her >> 'fibromyalgia' which keeps her up at night. Her hips and shoulders are >> severely achey. She " probably " has MS, first diagnosed (MRI) in the >> 80's >> but the disease has been slow and mild until now. Many of her present >> symptoms could be MS, could be drug side effects or interactions. The >> medications she is currently on: Effexor, Prevacid, Neurontin, >> Klonopin, >> Propanolol, Depakote, Lipitor, and occasionally Imitrex. (I think the >> psych and internist are communicating about the meds, at least.) >> Without >> going into further detail, I am daunted by the number of meds, some of >> them hard on the liver, some affecting absorption (etc.) and I'm >> concerned about just treating her patterns. I would be adding heat and >> phlegm clearing and blood moving herbs to the soup. I know the standard >> herb-drug interactions, mostly theoretical, to watch for, but when >> there's just a lot of strong pharmaceuticals, I'm inclined to see that >> as a red flag? Or does it really depend on each individual case? I am >> going to first see whether acupuncture brings her relief. She is >> suffering a great deal now and if herbs are indicated I would like her >> to have them soon. I know some of you are experienced in knotty >> diseases >> in patients taking western meds--I'd be grateful for your opinions. >> >> Thank you, Marian >> --- >> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >> Version: 6.0.434 / Virus Database: 243 - Release 12/25/2002 >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 , Cara Frank wrote: > It is also worth nothing that statin drugs can cause mild to severe myalgias. I've seen at least 4 patients whose body pain resolved COMPLETELY when that class of meds was discontinued. >>> Cara: This is an excellent point. The mixture of prescription drugs, especially in the aged, can create many of the symptoms. It reminded me of a case I had a few years back of a man who was slowly going deaf. The pulses showed that the stress from his liver was attacking the kidney and affecting the sensory range. When I started to work on him, he improved; but when he stopped taking the two statin drugs he was on he completely recovered without recurrence. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 medications she is currently on: Effexor, Prevacid, Neurontin, Klonopin,Propanolol, Depakote, Lipitor, and occasionally Imitrex. >>>It is very rare that somebody really needs to be on all these meds, as many duplicate function and are synergistic. Is the propanolol used for blood pressure, heart disease,irritability/anxiety or to manage shaking/tremor from the other drugs or disorder? Is she manic if not why have both neurontin and depakote. Is the depakote used to vamp the effexor for depression or the effexor used for pain (can be very effective but needs to be in hight dose for pain) or is she epileptic? Unless she really has multiple diseases the first thing would be to work with her Dr to remove some of the meds as you will never know which symptoms are sideeffects and which are treatable.Is her body pain from the lipitor? what is her sed rate (very important to conceder) alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 Alon, How would you tell if her body pain was from the lipitor? Also C-reactive protein would be a faster responding test than SED rate for RA or fibro. Warren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 If the "body pain" is from a side effect myopathy of the Lipitor, her creatinine kinase (CK) is likely to be high. Prof Neal White. - Warren Cargal Monday, May 12, 2003 11:54 AM Re: herb/drug interactions Alon,How would you tell if her body pain was from the lipitor? Also C-reactive protein would be a faster responding test than SED rate for RA or fibro.WarrenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 How would you tell if her body pain was from the lipitor? Also C-reactive protein would be a faster responding test than SED rate for RA or fibro.>>>>>I believe that if it is from lipitor (and byu the way that means red yeast rise as well) the pain is inflammatory so that sed-rate would go up. Sed rate is an easy test to do even in office. One can always change to a different statin. Lipitor is the one most associated alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2003 Report Share Posted May 13, 2003 Depakote may be used for migraines also, since they are using Imitrex that might be the case - so they may not have seizures. Geoff > __________>> Message: 17> Sun, 11 May 2003 22:11:25 -0700> "" <zrosenbe> Re: herb/drug interactions>> This to me is a 'red flag' patient. There is a lot more> going on here > than just 'fibromyalgia'. Klonopin is a very powerful CNS> depressant > drug, and depakote is an anti-seizure drug, sometimes used for manic > depressive disorder. . . does she have seizures ? Plus,> effexor, an > antidepressent. Prevacid is for stomach acid and ulcers. . .> does she > have an ulcer, reflux, or do the other drugs hurt the stomach? > Propanolol is a heart medication. . .does she have heart problems? > Lipitor is for high cholesterol. Neurontin. . .all these are very > powerful drugs to be taken together all at the same time. > And, all of > these are fairly serious conditions, if they are all present at the > same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2003 Report Share Posted May 14, 2003 Marian: Pantethine is a precursor to panthothenic acid. Although not yet universally available in supplement venues, It is available from KAL as "Pantethine" and from Enyzmatic Therapy as "Cholestoril", & al. It is also supposed to reduce triglycerides also, which not all of the "natural" cholesterol treatments do. A reference on this (and a good discussion of "naturopathic" approaches to lipids) would be Pizzorno and Murray's TEXTBOOK OF NATURAL MEDICINE , 2 vol., Churchill, Livingston. Neal. - Marian Blum Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine (AT) (DOT) Com Wednesday, May 14, 2003 12:14 AM herb/drug interactions Thank-you all for your replies concerning my MS/fibromyalgia case. Sincethere were so many replies, I'll address them all together without thestandard reply format.Her pulses are very deep, practically imperceptible, neither thin nortaut, but soft. The middle (bar) positions are the strongest--liver andspleen from my training. Her tongue body is thin and slightly deviated(no strokes or TIA's), slightly pale and with a thick slimy white coatand red tip.Depakote is to prevent migraines. Klonopin is for sleep (the only thingthat worked). Her psychiatrist is aiming to get her off the Klonopin. Ithink the neurontin is for erythromelalgia (burning feet and, less so,hands). I will check again about that. Propranolol is for hypertension.I will treat this with acup. She's 'always' had 'heartburn'--had anegative endoscopy--the Prevacid got rid of it. She says she had themuscle pain before she was ever on Lipitor, but I will ask again,perhaps suggest a CK level. Wouldn't positive results on SED rate orC-reactive protein indicate inflammation that could be anywhere in thebody, so therefore, it wouldn't directly suggest the Lipitor as culprit?My understanding og red yeast rice is that it is where Mevacororiginated so there are almost identical adverse effects with it, assome of you suggest. Thankfully, after her second treatment she had 4days of relief from hip pain. Her shen, by my reading, is way morevibrant than mine would be if I were on all those meds! I am stilltrying to piece together her diagnosis and the pathogenesis of hercurrent conditions. I'll report if anything particularly interestingdevelops in this case. I have told her we would not pursue herbaltreatment at this time.Professor White, can you say more about panthethine? Anything to do withpantothenic acid? I will suggest alternative cholesterol treatments toher.Marian---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.434 / Virus Database: 243 - Release 12/25/2002Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2003 Report Share Posted May 14, 2003 The effects of a fermented rice product will not be nearly as strong as a medication that synthesizes the active ingredient (the statins). While I don't think you could get the same controlled-dosage lowering of cholesterol with red yeast rice, in Chinese medicine we don't use a medicinal substance in that manner. We combine it in prescriptions with other ingredients and treat a pattern. A 'me-too' pharmaceutical use of a Chinese medicinal is second-rate biomedicine. Because of this, I don't think the adverse (side) effects of red yeast rice can be compared with Mevacor. You'd have to eat a 'truck-load'. So here I have to disagree with Alon that the side-effects are comparable. On Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 09:14 PM, Marian Blum wrote: > My understanding og red yeast rice is that it is where Mevacor > originated so there are almost identical adverse effects with it, as > some of you suggest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2003 Report Share Posted May 14, 2003 Z'ev, Both Dr. Kang and I share your view regarding both the safety and efficacy of Chinese herb formula actions with regard to cholesterol lowering. Like Ken Rose with language, I find my self harping on the difference between pharmaceutical and physiological actions and the importance of making this distinction. The lack of people's getting this concept I chalk up in part to my own lack of skill in carefully articulating it. Pharmaceutical (or pharmacological) actions "force" molecular and cellular actions that would not naturally occur within a given system. Physiological actions "allow" or permit systemic or organ system actions that would more naturally bring about the molecular and cellular actions in a balanced manner. That latter method would preserve and promote homeostasis (zheng qi), the former would disrupt homeostasis bringing about side effects (xie qi). Back at ACTCM when Dr. Kang was a clinical professor, he would often throw up his hands in frustration when students would present him with herb formulas. The students would often attempt to build a 15 or 20-herb formula based on the individual actions of the herbs to treat a variety of patient symptoms rather that utilize root formulas with alterations or adjustments to meet the needs of the patient. His explanations why to proceed in the latter way often took on a discussion of whether the students were trying to use the herbs strictly for their individual pharmaceutical actions, or whether they were attempting to balance the patient's physiology with a whole root formula. I'm sure this simple point has been made in nearly limitless ways on this list by now. Everyone seems fairly committed to their personal orientation on this point. Emmanuel Segmen - Wednesday, May 14, 2003 10:52 AM Re: herb/drug interactions The effects of a fermented rice product will not be nearly as strong as a medication that synthesizes the active ingredient (the statins). While I don't think you could get the same controlled-dosage lowering of cholesterol with red yeast rice, in Chinese medicine we don't use a medicinal substance in that manner. We combine it in prescriptions with other ingredients and treat a pattern. A 'me-too' pharmaceutical use of a Chinese medicinal is second-rate biomedicine.Because of this, I don't think the adverse (side) effects of red yeast rice can be compared with Mevacor. You'd have to eat a 'truck-load'. So here I have to disagree with Alon that the side-effects are comparable.On Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 09:14 PM, Marian Blum wrote:> My understanding og red yeast rice is that it is where Mevacor originated so there are almost identical adverse effects with it, as some of you suggest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2003 Report Share Posted May 14, 2003 Because of this, I don't think the adverse (side) effects of red yeast rice can be compared with Mevacor. You'd have to eat a 'truck-load'. So here I have to disagree with Alon that the side-effects are comparable.>>>>Zev you are wrong. Most commercial red yeast rise are standardized and you can get a high monolrin B which is lipator alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2003 Report Share Posted May 14, 2003 His explanations why to proceed in the latter way often took on a discussion of whether the students were trying to use the herbs strictly for their individual pharmaceutical actions, or whether they were attempting to balance the patient's physiology with a whole root formula >>>Well you can dismiss Yet Kai Lai then. He forms formulas based on herb combination and individual herb functions. He is the official disciple of a very known tradition in southern china. Not all traditions of CM use so called classic formulas as a base alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2003 Report Share Posted May 14, 2003 Alon, I was talking about the raw 'herb' hong gu, not products made from the red yeast rice. I would have to examine the individual products to see how they are processed in terms of extraction, potency, dosage, length of time taken, etc. But this is not Chinese herbal medicine, just an individual product that has been processed as a 'supplement'. On Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 07:53 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: > Because of this, I don't think the adverse (side) effects of red yeast > rice can be compared with Mevacor. You'd have to eat a 'truck-load'. > So here I have to disagree with Alon that the side-effects are > comparable. > >>>>Zev you are wrong. Most commercial red yeast rise are standardized > and you can get a high monolrin B which is lipator > alon > <image.tiff> > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2003 Report Share Posted May 14, 2003 Emmanuel wrote (of Dr. Kang): His explanations why to proceed in the latter way often took on a discussion of whether the students were trying to use the herbs strictly for their individual pharmaceutical actions, or whether they were attempting to balance the patient's physiology with a whole root formula >>>Well you can dismiss Yet Kai Lai then. He forms formulas based on herb combination and individual herb functions. He is the official disciple of a very known tradition in southern china. Not all traditions of CM use so called classic formulas as a base alon Yes, Alon, you are correct. It was the students following Yet Kai Lai that had this interaction with Dr. Kang. Did you attend ACTCM and intern in the clinic in 1988? It seem that I should remember you from that era. Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2003 Report Share Posted May 14, 2003 Z'ev and Alon, The herb hong qu (red yeasted rice) is readily available as raw herb for less than $2/lb. We bring it in from Shandong Province. It's a raw product and not standardized in the manner of the American marketing style of standardized to an HPLC marker. "Standardized" ginseng at the GNC stores has not one drop of ginseng root in it. The product is made from ginseng biomass: lots of aerial portions of the plant that's left over from harvesting the roots. Any ginseng product with more than 5% ginsenosides is extracted from biomass. I'm one of the bad people that markets the raw materials for making that stuff. If it gets money to ginseng farmers in a direct manner or if it supports the Taibo Factory in Lanzhou, I consider doing the business. Basically, though, standardized herbs are a marketer's wet dream come true and is often mainly a scam to the consumer. Either buy your herbs raw or as an extract from a reputable company. All the main Taiwanese companies are quite reputable in this manner: Lotus, KPC, Sun Ten and Min Tong. They do HPLC and TLC to maintain uniformity of factory production from batch to batch ... not to make marketing claims. American companies like Far East Summit, K'an and Spring Wind-Golden Flower make products from correct, high quality herbs. Sorry if I missed somebody's company. Emmanuel Segmen Z'ev wrote: Alon, I was talking about the raw 'herb' hong gu, not products made from the red yeast rice. I would have to examine the individual products to see how they are processed in terms of extraction, potency, dosage, length of time taken, etc. But this is not Chinese herbal medicine, just an individual product that has been processed as a 'supplement'.On Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 07:53 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: Because of this, I don't think the adverse (side) effects of red yeastrice can be compared with Mevacor. You'd have to eat a 'truck-load'. So here I have to disagree with Alon that the side-effects arecomparable.>>>>Zev you are wrong. Most commercial red yeast rise are standardized and you can get a high monolrin B which is lipatoralon<image.tiff> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2003 Report Share Posted May 14, 2003 Yes, Alon, you are correct. It was the students following Yet Kai Lai that had this interaction with Dr. Kang. Did you attend ACTCM and intern in the clinic in 1988? It seem that I should remember you from that era. >>>No i graduated in 1984 alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2003 Report Share Posted May 14, 2003 The herb hong qu (red yeasted rice) is readily available as raw herb for less than $2/lb >>>Even then the monolrinB content is about 0.125% and one can easily get high enough of a the statin to be comparable to pharmaceutical drugs. Another very important part of the story is citrideen (i am not sure of spelling) a substance that can be found in red yeast rice and is liver toxic. Luckily most products out there do not have high amounts. However being "natural" this contamination needs to be watched for carefully alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2003 Report Share Posted May 14, 2003 Emmanuel, .... Like Ken Rose with language, I find my self harping on the difference between pharmaceutical and physiological actions and the importance of making this distinction. The lack of people's getting this concept I chalk up in part to my own lack of skill in carefully articulating it. Now I understand. We have died and gone to heaven and are just harping endlessly trying to make ourselves comprehensible. Odd, though, that I feel more like one of Pavlov's dogs than a seraph or a cherub. Such are the mysteries of life! Or, as Bob Dylan put it, I might look like Robert Frost but I feel just like Jesse James. There's a famous saying among taiji players that simply says: Use four ounces to deflect a thousand pounds. As in the following passage from the Taiji classics: Formerly people said: being able to attract to emptiness, you can use four ounces to deflect a thousand pounds, Not being able to attract to emptiness, you cannot deflect a thousand pounds. The words are simple, but the meaning is complete. The beginner cannot understand it. Here I add some words to explain it. If someone is ambitious to learn this art, he can find some way to enter it and every day he will have some improvement. Desiring to attract to emptiness and deflect a thousand pounds, first you must know yourself and others. If you want to know yourself and others, you must give up yourself and follow others. If you give up yourself and follow others, first you must have the correct timing and position. To obtain the correct timing and position, you must first make your body one unit. Desiring to make the body one unit, you must first eliminate hollows and protuberances. To make the whole body without breaks or holes, you must first have the shen and ch'i excited and expanded. If you want the shen and ch'i activated and expanded, you must first raise the spirit (pay attention) and the shen should not be unfocussed. To have your shen not unfocussed, you must first have the shen and ch'i gather and penetrate the bones. Desiring the shen and ch'i to penetrate the bones, first you must strengthen the two thighs and loosen the two shoulders and let the ch'i sink down. I grabbed it off of a website by someone named Lee Scheele, but this person seems to acknowledge and in fact the above quote seems to come from the translation done many years ago by Benjamin Lo, Martin Inn, Bob Amacker, and Susan Foe and published by North Atlantic Books. No doubt this will clear it all up for everyone and you won't have to harp about pushing and pulling with pharmaceutics and physiology. Then you can harp on something else. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2003 Report Share Posted May 15, 2003 No doubt this will clear it all up foreveryone and you won't have to harpabout pushing and pulling with pharmaceuticsand physiology. Then you can harp on somethingelse.Ken Ken, You've got my vote for this week's Best of List. Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2003 Report Share Posted May 15, 2003 Emmanuel, > > You've got my vote for this week's Best of List. > It's only Thursday. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2003 Report Share Posted May 15, 2003 Because of this, I don't think the adverse (side) effects of red yeast rice can be compared with Mevacor. You'd have to eat a 'truck-load'. So here I have to disagree with Alon that the side-effects are comparable. >>>>Zev you are wrong. Most commercial red yeast rise are standardized and you can get a high monolrin B which is lipator The herb hong qu (red yeasted rice) is readily available as raw herb for less than $2/lb >>>Even then the monolrinB content is about 0.125% and one can easily get high enough of a the statin to be comparable to pharmaceutical drugs. Another very important part of the story is citrideen (i am not sure of spelling) a substance that can be found in red yeast rice and is liver toxic. Luckily most products out there do not have high amounts. However being " natural " this contamination needs to be watched for carefully alon Zev is actually correct about the issue of side effects from hong qu. The total statin content (there are numerous statins in hong qu, one of which, in some cases, is lovostatin, the drug) is highly variable, yet invariably it is significantly lower even at 10 times the dose than pharmaceutical products. I have assayed numerous hong qu samples by HPLC and have done HMG CoA reductase inhibition bioassays on roughly ten different samples of hong qu representing various production methods. HMG… is the enzyme that stimulates the production of cholesterol in the liver and is inhibited by the statins. The traditional method for hong qu production is a dry fermentation where the rice and yeast are buried together underground in burlap. Now, deep liquid fermentation is most often used. The statin content and its enzyme inhibition from sample to sample were highly variable, over twenty-fold difference. The weakest was the type of product that Emannuel referenced as available in bulk rice granules for about $2/lb. In fact its inhibition of HMG was negligible. However even the most potent, which is currently being studied at a major US University (Botanica BioScience helped obtain the study material), is significantly less potent at the recommended dosage, than Mevacor or other statin pharmaceutical products at their recommended dose. In the early 1990’s we were involved in two human studies, using cholesterol as one of the clinical end points, with an herbal formula that contained hong qu. The total reduction of cholesterol was roughly 25% and the amount of hong qu consumed in the multi-ingredient formula was less than 1000mg per day. Clearly other treatment considerations targeted by the more comprehensive formula were responsible for the measurable physiological benefits. Hong qu is considered a digestant in TCM. It is listed on pg 731 Hong Yen-Hsu’s Materia Medica. Stephen Morrissey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2003 Report Share Posted May 15, 2003 Zev is actually correct about the issue of side effects from hong qu. The total statin content (there are numerous statins in hong qu, one of which, in some cases, is lovostatin, the drug) is highly variable, yet invariably it is significantly lower even at 10 times the dose than pharmaceutical products. >>>>I get a 0.5% levostatine red yeast rice, the one studied in the US if memory serves me is 0.225% (or 0.125%) -the dosage of mevacor (lovastatin) is usually about 10-80 mg. If you take 2-8g per day which some of my as well as other patients are doing you can easily get the same level of statins, as well as a 40% drop in cholesterol alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2003 Report Share Posted May 15, 2003 >>>>I get a 0.5% levostatine red yeast rice, the one studied in the US if memory serves me is 0.225% (or 0.125%) -the dosage of mevacor (lovastatin) is usually about 10-80 mg. If you take 2-8g per day which some of my as well as other patients are doing you can easily get the same level of statins, as well as a 40% drop in cholesterol alon Alon, I realize math is not heavily emphasized in TCM colleges so let¡Çs walk through this together. I don¡Çt claim to be a math genius either so first, read the abstract and first paragraph below of a research study I had translated from Chinese. The study is from a manufacturer that makes the ¡Èhigh content¡É stuff which is probably similar to the kind of product the FDA came down on and which you probably buy. I¡Çve left the Chinglish unchanged for your appreciation since you have your own form of inglish (slow/low wins). Abstract Studies on the effect of commercially available hongqu H-04 and hongqu H-18 made by us on blood lipid and lipoprotein concentration of quail suffering from hyperlipidaemia was carried out. Results demonstrated that the serum TC, TG, LDL-C concentrations in quail with hyperlipidaemia were significantly reduced by hongqu H-04 and hongqu H-18. The effect of hongqu H-18is better than hongqu H-01on blood lipid and lipoprotein concentration. Keywords Hongqu, Hyperlipidaemia Hongqu was produced by with inoculating Monascus purpureus Went. in rice and allowing to ferment into hypha[1], had actions to promote blood circulation to remove blood stasis, and invigorate the spleen and digest, was used to treat dysphpsia and abdominal pain due to stasis traditional Chinese medicine[2]. Some species or the fermentation products of some species or yeast in fungi Monascus ssp. Contained blood lipid regulator 3-hydroxyl-3-methylpentadiacyl coenzyme A (HMG-Co A) reductase inhibitor, but the content was very slow. We prepared a new hongqu H-18, obtained by mutagenesis breeding and screening, into rice and allowing to ferment, among them the content of lovastatin (4.997 ¦Ìg/g), an HMG-Co A reductase inhibitor, was higher than that in commercial hongqu crude drug H-04 (0.551 ¦Ìg/g), raisint appproaching 10 times[3]. To investigate the regulation action either on blood lipid, we compared the blood lipid lowering effects on quail with hyperlipidaemia between hongqu H-18 made by us and commercially available hongqu H-04. If you agree that a microgram is 1/1000 of a milligram, then how would you convert the pharma-grade material with 4.997 micrograms? You would divide 4.997 by 1000 to get the number of milligrams. My math says it rounds up to 0.005 milligrams. Let me know if you think the decimal point is in the wrong place. I appreciate that you make the effort to clarify these easily misconstrued issues. Micro vs Milligrams¡ÄLeft brain overload. Stephen Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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