Guest guest Posted July 21, 2006 Report Share Posted July 21, 2006 Hi all, Taken from: http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/uknews/news20060721.shtml#4 The Daily Mail is the only national newspaper to report that doctors have warned of the dangers of some herbal therapies after a patient developed bladder cancer from taking a traditional Chinese medicine. The 30-year-old man had been taking a Chinese herb, Longdan Xieganwan, to 'enhance' his liver for at least five years. The herb contained a plant ingredient called aristolochic acid, which is banned in Britain and has been linked to bladder cancer and kidney damage. Previous research has shown that cumulative doses exceeding 200 grams were 'highly associated' with bladder cancer. A team from the Whittington Hospital in London, where the patient was treated, have voiced their concerns in The Lancet, saying that aristolochic acid was now recognised as a 'potent urological carcinogen'. Last month a report by trading standards officers revealed that Chinese traditional medicines and herbal remedies can contain poisons including arsenic, mercury and asbestos. Traditional Chinese medicine is one of the most popular alternative treatments in the UK, with at least 3,000 known practitioners. An editorial in The Lancet said that the case highlighted the dangers of aristolochic acid, but argued that it would be wrong to dismiss all herbal medicines. 'All complementary medicines, like any medicine, have the potential for side-effects. They all need regulation as drugs'. Kind regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM Editor Times +44 (0) 208 367 8378 enquiries www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2006 Report Share Posted July 21, 2006 Attilio. Does this rose, aristolochic acid, have another name, English and Pin Yin. I use Longdan Xiegan wan and it is very helpful for people. Is it possilbe to get it without the aristolochic acid? Anne Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > Hi all, > > Taken from: http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/uknews/news20060721.shtml#4 > <http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/uknews/news20060721.shtml#4> > > The Daily Mail is the only national newspaper to report that doctors have > warned of the dangers of some herbal therapies after a patient developed > bladder cancer from taking a traditional Chinese medicine. The 30-year-old > man had been taking a Chinese herb, Longdan Xieganwan, to 'enhance' his > liver for at least five years. The herb contained a plant ingredient > called > aristolochic acid, which is banned in Britain and has been linked to > bladder > cancer and kidney damage. Previous research has shown that cumulative > doses > exceeding 200 grams were 'highly associated' with bladder cancer. A team > from the Whittington Hospital in London, where the patient was > treated, have > voiced their concerns in The Lancet, saying that aristolochic acid was now > recognised as a 'potent urological carcinogen'. Last month a report by > trading standards officers revealed that Chinese traditional medicines and > herbal remedies can contain poisons including arsenic, mercury and > asbestos. > Traditional Chinese medicine is one of the most popular alternative > treatments in the UK, with at least 3,000 known practitioners. An > editorial > in The Lancet said that the case highlighted the dangers of aristolochic > acid, but argued that it would be wrong to dismiss all herbal medicines. > 'All complementary medicines, like any medicine, have the potential for > side-effects. They all need regulation as drugs'. > > Kind regards, > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM > Editor > Times > +44 (0) 208 367 8378 > enquiries > <enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com> > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2006 Report Share Posted July 21, 2006 Hey Anne, Mu Tong is the herb of issue. If you are buying in the US from one of the better companies they have tested for the AA. Problem is in id Chuan Mu Tong Clematidis vs Guan Mu Tong Aristolochie...some of the cheaper companies don't discriminate.... Bob www.acuherbals.com Anne Crowley <blazing.valley wrote: Attilio. Does this rose, aristolochic acid, have another name, English and Pin Yin. I use Longdan Xiegan wan and it is very helpful for people. Is it possilbe to get it without the aristolochic acid? Anne Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > Hi all, > > Taken from: http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/uknews/news20060721.shtml#4 > <http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/uknews/news20060721.shtml#4> > > The Daily Mail is the only national newspaper to report that doctors have > warned of the dangers of some herbal therapies after a patient developed > bladder cancer from taking a traditional Chinese medicine. The 30-year-old > man had been taking a Chinese herb, Longdan Xieganwan, to 'enhance' his > liver for at least five years. The herb contained a plant ingredient > called > aristolochic acid, which is banned in Britain and has been linked to > bladder > cancer and kidney damage. Previous research has shown that cumulative > doses > exceeding 200 grams were 'highly associated' with bladder cancer. A team > from the Whittington Hospital in London, where the patient was > treated, have > voiced their concerns in The Lancet, saying that aristolochic acid was now > recognised as a 'potent urological carcinogen'. Last month a report by > trading standards officers revealed that Chinese traditional medicines and > herbal remedies can contain poisons including arsenic, mercury and > asbestos. > Traditional Chinese medicine is one of the most popular alternative > treatments in the UK, with at least 3,000 known practitioners. An > editorial > in The Lancet said that the case highlighted the dangers of aristolochic > acid, but argued that it would be wrong to dismiss all herbal medicines. > 'All complementary medicines, like any medicine, have the potential for > side-effects. They all need regulation as drugs'. > > Kind regards, > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM > Editor > Times > +44 (0) 208 367 8378 > enquiries > <enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com> > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2006 Report Share Posted July 21, 2006 Longdan isn't ment to be used for five years and it's not for the reasons he used it. Can't blaim the herb for it's misuse. Check this out http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/20/health/main1823121.shtml Kelvin Anne Crowley <blazing.valley wrote: Attilio. Does this rose, aristolochic acid, have another name, English and Pin Yin. I use Longdan Xiegan wan and it is very helpful for people. Is it possilbe to get it without the aristolochic acid? Anne Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > Hi all, > > Taken from: http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/uknews/news20060721.shtml#4 > <http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/uknews/news20060721.shtml#4> > > The Daily Mail is the only national newspaper to report that doctors have > warned of the dangers of some herbal therapies after a patient developed > bladder cancer from taking a traditional Chinese medicine. The 30-year-old > man had been taking a Chinese herb, Longdan Xieganwan, to 'enhance' his > liver for at least five years. The herb contained a plant ingredient > called > aristolochic acid, which is banned in Britain and has been linked to > bladder > cancer and kidney damage. Previous research has shown that cumulative > doses > exceeding 200 grams were 'highly associated' with bladder cancer. A team > from the Whittington Hospital in London, where the patient was > treated, have > voiced their concerns in The Lancet, saying that aristolochic acid was now > recognised as a 'potent urological carcinogen'. Last month a report by > trading standards officers revealed that Chinese traditional medicines and > herbal remedies can contain poisons including arsenic, mercury and > asbestos. > Traditional Chinese medicine is one of the most popular alternative > treatments in the UK, with at least 3,000 known practitioners. An > editorial > in The Lancet said that the case highlighted the dangers of aristolochic > acid, but argued that it would be wrong to dismiss all herbal medicines. > 'All complementary medicines, like any medicine, have the potential for > side-effects. They all need regulation as drugs'. > > Kind regards, > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM > Editor > Times > +44 (0) 208 367 8378 > enquiries > <enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com> > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2006 Report Share Posted July 21, 2006 I couldn't agree more! I wonder if he was seeing the same practitioner all those years or simply purchasing the Longdan himself at a Chinese pharmacy withiout consulting anyone. Outrageous and sad, indeed! And all TCM practitioners must bear the burdensome responsibility of defending TCM ultimately. Kelvin Dewolfe <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: Longdan isn't ment to be used for five years and it's not for the reasons he used it. Can't blaim the herb for it's misuse. Check this out http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/20/health/main1823121.shtml Kelvin Anne Crowley <blazing.valley wrote: Attilio. Does this rose, aristolochic acid, have another name, English and Pin Yin. I use Longdan Xiegan wan and it is very helpful for people. Is it possilbe to get it without the aristolochic acid? Anne Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > Hi all, > > Taken from: http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/uknews/news20060721.shtml#4 > <http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/uknews/news20060721.shtml#4> > > The Daily Mail is the only national newspaper to report that doctors have > warned of the dangers of some herbal therapies after a patient developed > bladder cancer from taking a traditional Chinese medicine. The 30-year-old > man had been taking a Chinese herb, Longdan Xieganwan, to 'enhance' his > liver for at least five years. The herb contained a plant ingredient > called > aristolochic acid, which is banned in Britain and has been linked to > bladder > cancer and kidney damage. Previous research has shown that cumulative > doses > exceeding 200 grams were 'highly associated' with bladder cancer. A team > from the Whittington Hospital in London, where the patient was > treated, have > voiced their concerns in The Lancet, saying that aristolochic acid was now > recognised as a 'potent urological carcinogen'. Last month a report by > trading standards officers revealed that Chinese traditional medicines and > herbal remedies can contain poisons including arsenic, mercury and > asbestos. > Traditional Chinese medicine is one of the most popular alternative > treatments in the UK, with at least 3,000 known practitioners. An > editorial > in The Lancet said that the case highlighted the dangers of aristolochic > acid, but argued that it would be wrong to dismiss all herbal medicines. > 'All complementary medicines, like any medicine, have the potential for > side-effects. They all need regulation as drugs'. > > Kind regards, > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM > Editor > Times > +44 (0) 208 367 8378 > enquiries > <enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com> > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2006 Report Share Posted July 21, 2006 Meanwhile, back at the ranch...this little story from today's Los Angeles Times.. Panel: Medication Errors Hazardous to Your Health A major study lists confusion over names and wrong doses among the mistakes, and urges more use of computers in prescribing drugs. By Thomas H. Maugh II, Times Staff Writer July 21, 2006 At least 1.5 million Americans are injured or killed every year by medication errors at a direct cost of billions of dollars, according to a report issued Thursday by the prestigious Institute of Medicine in Washington, D.C. For hospitalized patients, the report said that on average, one medication error per day was caused by confusion in drug names, wrong doses, failure to deliver drugs or a host of other problems. The study is a follow-up to a 1999 report from the institute, which is part of the National Academies, that outlined all medical errors and claimed that as many as 98,000 people were killed each year as a result of medical errors — 7,000 of them as a result of medication errors. " We were initially quite surprised by the number of mistakes, but the more we heard, the more convinced we were that these are actually serious underestimates, " said panel member Dr. Kevin Johnson of Vanderbilt University School of Medicine. The study lays out a detailed series of recommendations for new procedures and research to minimize the risk of future medication errors, emphasizing computerization of prescribing and administering drugs and data acquisition. Betsy Lehman, a health reporter for the Boston Globe, was one patient who was killed as a result of such errors, according to the report. The 39-year-old wife and mother of two was being treated for breast cancer in an experimental program at Boston's Dana-Farber Cancer Institute in 1994. A medical fellow wrote a prescription for the cancer drugs, citing the total amount she was to receive over four days, the report said. Lehman died when nurses administered that total each day, overwhelming her system. The hospital had no system to monitor dosages, and her family argued that staff did not pay attention to her complaints about the effects of the overdose, according to the report. Such mistakes happen all too frequently, the report said. Each year, there are an estimated 400,000 preventable drug-related injuries in hospitals, costing at least $3.5 billion. There also are 800,000 medication-related injuries in nursing homes and other long-term care facilities, and about 530,000 among Medicare recipients in outpatient clinics. The report provided no estimate on the cost of the errors in those facilities. " We've made significant improvements since 1999 … but we still have a long way to go, " said J. Lyle Bootman of the University of Arizona College of Pharmacy, who co-chaired the panel. " The current process by which medications are prescribed, dispensed, administered and monitored is characterized by many serious problems that threaten both the safety and positive outcomes of patients. " With more than 4 billion prescriptions being written each year in the United States, even a very small error rate can translate into a large number of problems. Among the drugs most commonly associated with errors in hospitals are insulin, morphine, potassium chloride, and the anticoagulants heparin and warfarin, which have a high risk of patient injury when dispensed incorrectly, the report said. It cited a 2002 study from the United States Pharmacopeia that found these five drugs accounted for 28% of all errors that resulted in extended hospitalizations. Insulin alone accounted for a third of that total. The panel cited a variety of causes for the problems. One is unexpected drug interactions. With more than 15,000 prescription drugs in use and 300,000 over-the-counter products, " it is virtually impossible for a human to track all the interactions any more, " said Dr. Wilson W. Pace of the University of Colorado. Another is the similarity between drug names, which often results in the wrong drug being given. For example, the osteoporosis drug Fosamax could be mistaken for Flomax, which is given to improve urination in patients with an enlarged prostate. Other problems cited by the panel include the legendary bad handwriting of physicians, nurses giving patients drugs meant for another patient, pharmacists dispensing the wrong drugs and patients not understanding how to take the drugs. The report cites one middle-aged man who was not helped by his new asthma inhaler. Demonstrating how he used it, the man puffed the inhaler into the air in front of him and inhaled — just as his doctor had done. Because the man was illiterate, he was not able to read the package instructions, which said to puff it directly into his lungs. " If you are not sure of something, ask, " said panelist Dr. Albert W. Wu of Johns Hopkins University. " It may be a little bit of an annoyance to providers, but we will get used to it. " The report said patients also share some of the blame, frequently withholding information about supplements and herbal medications that they are taking — some of which can have serious interactions with prescription drugs. The panelists also noted studies showing that only about 55% of patients take all their drugs. Some problems have simple fixes. Panel member Michael R. Cohen, president of the Institute for Safe Medication Practices in suburban Philadelphia, noted that concentrated lidocaine and dilute lidocaine used to be sold in similar syringes. Nurses treating heart patients would occasionally inject the concentrated solution — meant for use in IV bags — directly into patients with lethal results, resulting in more than 50 deaths in California alone. That product was removed from the market and the problem disappeared, he said. For many of these problems, an electronic prescribing and data system is the best hope, the report said. Four previous reports from the institute have noted the role this technology will eventually play and, " as the information overload gets worse, there is really no other solution that is tenable, " Johnson said. Electronic prescribing — now used in fewer than 20% of hospitals — should eliminate most confusion produced by bad handwriting and by similar-sounding drug names that are easily confused. The system also would alert the physicians to errors in dosage and point out potential interactions with other drugs being used by the patient. Many physicians in small practices argue they cannot afford such sophisticated systems. The panel noted that some kind of government or industry subsidies might be necessary to help them. In Michigan, for example, Blue Cross is funding the installation of information technology systems in small practices " because they believe that, in the long run, it will save them money, " Wu said. Bar coding of drugs also will cut down on mistakes in hospitals. Beginning in January the Food and Drug Administration required that all medications have a bar code on the drug container. Unfortunately, however, different manufacturers use different bar codes. " We need to standardize the process, " just as supermarkets have, Bootman said. Kelvin Dewolfe <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: Longdan isn't ment to be used for five years and it's not for the reasons he used it. Can't blaim the herb for it's misuse. Check this out http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/20/health/main1823121.shtml Kelvin Anne Crowley <blazing.valley wrote: Attilio. Does this rose, aristolochic acid, have another name, English and Pin Yin. I use Longdan Xiegan wan and it is very helpful for people. Is it possilbe to get it without the aristolochic acid? Anne Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > Hi all, > > Taken from: http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/uknews/news20060721.shtml#4 > <http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/uknews/news20060721.shtml#4> > > The Daily Mail is the only national newspaper to report that doctors have > warned of the dangers of some herbal therapies after a patient developed > bladder cancer from taking a traditional Chinese medicine. The 30-year-old > man had been taking a Chinese herb, Longdan Xieganwan, to 'enhance' his > liver for at least five years. The herb contained a plant ingredient > called > aristolochic acid, which is banned in Britain and has been linked to > bladder > cancer and kidney damage. Previous research has shown that cumulative > doses > exceeding 200 grams were 'highly associated' with bladder cancer. A team > from the Whittington Hospital in London, where the patient was > treated, have > voiced their concerns in The Lancet, saying that aristolochic acid was now > recognised as a 'potent urological carcinogen'. Last month a report by > trading standards officers revealed that Chinese traditional medicines and > herbal remedies can contain poisons including arsenic, mercury and > asbestos. > Traditional Chinese medicine is one of the most popular alternative > treatments in the UK, with at least 3,000 known practitioners. An > editorial > in The Lancet said that the case highlighted the dangers of aristolochic > acid, but argued that it would be wrong to dismiss all herbal medicines. > 'All complementary medicines, like any medicine, have the potential for > side-effects. They all need regulation as drugs'. > > Kind regards, > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM > Editor > Times > +44 (0) 208 367 8378 > enquiries > <enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com> > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2006 Report Share Posted July 21, 2006 Hi Anne, I'm not sure where the aristolochic acid is coming from, but I'm sure you'll be able to get that formula minus the acid. Kind regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM +44 (0) 208 367 8378 enquiries www.attiliodalberto.com <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Anne Crowley 21 July 2006 17:26 Chinese Medicine Re: Chinese medicine gave man cancer Attilio. Does this rose, aristolochic acid, have another name, English and Pin Yin. I use Longdan Xiegan wan and it is very helpful for people. Is it possilbe to get it without the aristolochic acid? Anne Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > Hi all, > > Taken from: http://bmj.bmjjourn <http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/uknews/news20060721.shtml#4> als.com/uknews/news20060721.shtml#4 > <http://bmj.bmjjourn <http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/uknews/news20060721.shtml#4> als.com/uknews/news20060721.shtml#4> > > The Daily Mail is the only national newspaper to report that doctors have > warned of the dangers of some herbal therapies after a patient developed > bladder cancer from taking a traditional Chinese medicine. The 30-year-old > man had been taking a Chinese herb, Longdan Xieganwan, to 'enhance' his > liver for at least five years. The herb contained a plant ingredient > called > aristolochic acid, which is banned in Britain and has been linked to > bladder > cancer and kidney damage. Previous research has shown that cumulative > doses > exceeding 200 grams were 'highly associated' with bladder cancer. A team > from the Whittington Hospital in London, where the patient was > treated, have > voiced their concerns in The Lancet, saying that aristolochic acid was now > recognised as a 'potent urological carcinogen'. Last month a report by > trading standards officers revealed that Chinese traditional medicines and > herbal remedies can contain poisons including arsenic, mercury and > asbestos. > Traditional Chinese medicine is one of the most popular alternative > treatments in the UK, with at least 3,000 known practitioners. An > editorial > in The Lancet said that the case highlighted the dangers of aristolochic > acid, but argued that it would be wrong to dismiss all herbal medicines. > 'All complementary medicines, like any medicine, have the potential for > side-effects. They all need regulation as drugs'. > > Kind regards, > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM > Editor > Times > +44 (0) 208 367 8378 > enquiries@chineseme <enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com> dicinetimes.com > <enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com> > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2006 Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 I think that most people on this list use herbs. It seems some people have no idea where the aristolochic acid might be coming from (even after Bob Linde has mentioned which herb- or substituted herb- is the culprit). EVERYONE should know about the dangers of aristolochoc acid when they use Chinese herbs. It is probably the most prominent toxicity issue with Chinese herbs. There is a serious lack of education when practitioners do not know about thess issues. If we as practitioners don't know, then who will? We have a great responsibility there. Tom. ---- Attilio D'Alberto 07/21/06 20:36:58 Chinese Medicine RE: Chinese medicine gave man cancer Hi Anne, I'm not sure where the aristolochic acid is coming from, but I'm sure you'll be able to get that formula minus the acid. Kind regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM +44 (0) 208 367 8378 enquiries www.attiliodalberto.com <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> New Message Search Find the message you want faster. Visit your group to try out the improved message search. Share feedback on the new changes to Groups Recent Activity 7New Members 14New Links Visit Your Group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2006 Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 I just pulled up Bob's old message, thanks for pointing it out Tom. Yes, Mu Tong is well known as a banned substance. It's been banned for quite a few years. The formula must of been imported directly from China and evaded customs. It just goes to show the lack of a strict control on the importing of patents into various western countries. I'll also keep a look out for other herbs that contain aristolochic acid. Kind regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM +44 (0) 208 367 8378 enquiries www.attiliodalberto.com <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Tom Verhaeghe 22 July 2006 09:54 Chinese Medicine RE: Chinese medicine gave man cancer I think that most people on this list use herbs. It seems some people have no idea where the aristolochic acid might be coming from (even after Bob Linde has mentioned which herb- or substituted herb- is the culprit). EVERYONE should know about the dangers of aristolochoc acid when they use Chinese herbs. It is probably the most prominent toxicity issue with Chinese herbs. There is a serious lack of education when practitioners do not know about thess issues. If we as practitioners don't know, then who will? We have a great responsibility there. Tom. ---- Attilio D'Alberto 07/21/06 20:36:58 Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40> Chinese_Medicine RE: Chinese medicine gave man cancer Hi Anne, I'm not sure where the aristolochic acid is coming from, but I'm sure you'll be able to get that formula minus the acid. Kind regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM +44 (0) 208 367 8378 enquiries@attilioda <enquiries%40attiliodalberto.com> lberto.com www.attiliodalberto.com <http://www.attiliod <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> alberto.com/> New Message Search Find the message you want faster. Visit your group to try out the improved message search. Share feedback on the new changes to Groups Recent Activity 7New Members 14New Links Visit Your Group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2006 Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 Chinese Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto wrote: > > I just pulled up Bob's old message, thanks for pointing it out Tom. > > Yes, Mu Tong is well known as a banned substance. It's been banned for quite > a few years. The formula must of been imported directly from China and > evaded customs. It just goes to show the lack of a strict control on the > importing of patents into various western countries. > > I'll also keep a look out for other herbs that contain aristolochic acid. > Atillio, I was trying to say that as practitioners, we should know immediately that aristolochic acids in long dan xie gan tang should come from mu tong. You seem to have missed that point. Instead of acknodledging that you didn't think of mu tong you reply with " Yes, Mu Tong is well known as a banned substance. It's been banned for quite a few years. " Did you study Chinese herbs in your curriculum, Attilio? Every Chinese herbal course should at least mention the dangers of toxicity. Chris Dhaenens, a Belgian expert on toxicity laments the fact that only few practitioners show an interest in his courses. He has had a lot of his courses cancelled because of low attendance. On a European level, food supplements including Chinese herbs are being regulated. There is one vacancy to be filled: a pharmacology expert on Chinese herbs. There just is nobody to be found in Europe who is an expert in both pharmacology and Chinese herbs. Actually there is one, a professor emeritus from Germany, but he's too old. So what we have now is that a group of people, including many pharmacologists and MDs ( not one herbalist or acupuncturist) are making decisions about herb regulation. This could turn out very bad for the whole profession. Herbs will be regarded as drugs. Tom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2006 Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 Tom, Yes, I did get your point. It wasn't hard to miss. Yes, of course I studied Chinese herbs as part of my course. I also studied western pharmacology, but the two subjects were not mixed together to make it of any use. No mention was every made about aristolochic acid in herbs. Toxicity was never mentioned from a western pharmacology aspect, just a traditional Chinese materia medica perspective. And yes, I also know that the European Union has now reclassified Chinese herbs as a medicine, meaning that all herbs are drugs and by 2011 will need a market authorisation license to sell them in the EU. Kind regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM +44 (0) 208 367 8378 enquiries www.attiliodalberto.com <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Tom Verhaeghe 22 July 2006 11:16 Chinese Medicine Re: Chinese medicine gave man cancer Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40> Chinese_Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto wrote: > > I just pulled up Bob's old message, thanks for pointing it out Tom. > > Yes, Mu Tong is well known as a banned substance. It's been banned for quite > a few years. The formula must of been imported directly from China and > evaded customs. It just goes to show the lack of a strict control on the > importing of patents into various western countries. > > I'll also keep a look out for other herbs that contain aristolochic acid. > Atillio, I was trying to say that as practitioners, we should know immediately that aristolochic acids in long dan xie gan tang should come from mu tong. You seem to have missed that point. Instead of acknodledging that you didn't think of mu tong you reply with " Yes, Mu Tong is well known as a banned substance. It's been banned for quite a few years. " Did you study Chinese herbs in your curriculum, Attilio? Every Chinese herbal course should at least mention the dangers of toxicity. Chris Dhaenens, a Belgian expert on toxicity laments the fact that only few practitioners show an interest in his courses. He has had a lot of his courses cancelled because of low attendance. On a European level, food supplements including Chinese herbs are being regulated. There is one vacancy to be filled: a pharmacology expert on Chinese herbs. There just is nobody to be found in Europe who is an expert in both pharmacology and Chinese herbs. Actually there is one, a professor emeritus from Germany, but he's too old. So what we have now is that a group of people, including many pharmacologists and MDs ( not one herbalist or acupuncturist) are making decisions about herb regulation. This could turn out very bad for the whole profession. Herbs will be regarded as drugs. Tom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2006 Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 Chinese Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto wrote: > > Tom, > > Yes, I did get your point. It wasn't hard to miss. > > Yes, of course I studied Chinese herbs as part of my course. I also studied > western pharmacology, but the two subjects were not mixed together to make > it of any use. No mention was every made about aristolochic acid in herbs. > Toxicity was never mentioned from a western pharmacology aspect, just a > traditional Chinese materia medica perspective. > Atillio, if your course has never mentioned aristolochic acid, do you then still agree with the statement on your website : " This full time, five year course is respected as the highest standing Chinese medicine degree in Europe. Whilst teaching in detail the ancient specialised art of Chinese medicine it also included a deep understanding of western medicine, including; anatomy, physiology, pathology, pharmacology, clinical diagnostics and research methods. " ? I mean, how can a responsible teacher NOT mention aristolochic acid? > And yes, I also know that the European Union has now reclassified Chinese > herbs as a medicine, meaning that all herbs are drugs and by 2011 will need > a market authorisation license to sell them in the EU. I wasn't aware that the reclassification was already a fact. As far as I know, there is a committee investigating these things. Do you have a source for this? I'm interested in this, thanks. Tom. > Kind regards, > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM > +44 (0) 208 367 8378 > enquiries > www.attiliodalberto.com <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2006 Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 Tom, I regard your comments and attacks at my education as an act of flaming. I graduated from Middlesex University and Beijing University of TCM in China. If you want to take up the issue of Chinese medicine education at that university, then I can give you the contact details of the deputy Dean of Beijing University of TCM, a previous lecture of mine and you can discuss it with him. My degree course taught alot of things, which were crammed into 5 years. It would of been great if we were taught in detail the toxicology of all herbs, but there just wasn't the time or the protocol. The degree course was very much split into western medicine and Chinese medicine without much integration at all. It is still a very good degree program even with its faults. The European law reclassifying Chinese herbs as medicine occurred in April 2004 under the EC directive The Traditional Herbal Medicine Products Directive 2004/24/EC. You can source it from the EU website. It was implemented into UK law on October 2005. The UK govt have already started to implement this law. As I said previously, all patents will have to carry a market authorisation license by 2011. If they do not have one by then, then they can't be sold in the EU. Of course, there will be a number of problems with this. For example, if a importer registers a classical patent such as Lei Wei Di Huang Wan then anyone else that wants to register it can so and at a much cheaper rate than the first person, because it contains the same herbal ingredients which were checked when it was first registered. However, patents such as Long Dan Xie Gan Wan which have to be modified, may well have Mu Tong substituted for a different herb and be renamed to effectively register that patent. This all comes from China's lake of a way to protect intellectual property rights. Kind regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM +44 (0) 208 367 8378 enquiries www.attiliodalberto.com <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Tom Verhaeghe 22 July 2006 12:45 Chinese Medicine Re: Chinese medicine gave man cancer Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40> Chinese_Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto wrote: > > Tom, > > Yes, I did get your point. It wasn't hard to miss. > > Yes, of course I studied Chinese herbs as part of my course. I also studied > western pharmacology, but the two subjects were not mixed together to make > it of any use. No mention was every made about aristolochic acid in herbs. > Toxicity was never mentioned from a western pharmacology aspect, just a > traditional Chinese materia medica perspective. > Atillio, if your course has never mentioned aristolochic acid, do you then still agree with the statement on your website : " This full time, five year course is respected as the highest standing Chinese medicine degree in Europe. Whilst teaching in detail the ancient specialised art of Chinese medicine it also included a deep understanding of western medicine, including; anatomy, physiology, pathology, pharmacology, clinical diagnostics and research methods. " ? I mean, how can a responsible teacher NOT mention aristolochic acid? > And yes, I also know that the European Union has now reclassified Chinese > herbs as a medicine, meaning that all herbs are drugs and by 2011 will need > a market authorisation license to sell them in the EU. I wasn't aware that the reclassification was already a fact. As far as I know, there is a committee investigating these things. Do you have a source for this? I'm interested in this, thanks. Tom. > Kind regards, > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM > +44 (0) 208 367 8378 > enquiries > www.attiliodalberto.com <http://www.attiliod <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> alberto.com/> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2006 Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 I believe the problem arises because of an inappropriate species substitution. Chuan mu tong is the PinYin name for Clematis armandi Franch. and C. montana Buch.-Ham. Guan mu tong, which is an inappropriate species substitution, is Aristolochia manshuriensis Kom. - it is the latter that contains aristolochic acid. These types of inappropriate species substitutions are common problems in formulas and patent preparations from mainland China. I advise my own students to ***avoid all prepared herbal products*** from mainland China and to use only whole dried herbs from the mainland, as these are generally of higher quality and can be more easily identified from bulk appearance and properties. Another reason to insist that students (and instructors) learn botany and the botanical names of the herbs. Many TCM herbalists only know the Pinyin names and seldom question the botanical sources of commercial products. ---Roger Wicke PhD Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute website: http://www.rmhiherbal.org/ email: http://www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ On Jul 22, 2006, at 05:25, Chinese Medicine wrote: > 1f. Re: Chinese medicine gave man cancer > Posted by: " Tom Verhaeghe " tom.verhaeghe > verhaeghe_tom > Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:54 am (PDT) > > I think that most people on this list use herbs. It seems some > people have > no idea where the aristolochic acid might be coming from (even > after Bob > Linde has mentioned which herb- or substituted herb- is the culprit). > EVERYONE should know about the dangers of aristolochoc acid when > they use > Chinese herbs. It is probably the most prominent toxicity issue > with Chinese > herbs. There is a serious lack of education when practitioners do > not know > about thess issues. If we as practitioners don't know, then who > will? We > have a great responsibility there. > > Tom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2006 Report Share Posted July 23, 2006 Yes, Attilio, I tend to agree with you. We all need to treat each other with respect. This is a forum to learn from each other, not attack. It really doesn't serve anyone to get in that conversation. Anne Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > Tom, > > I regard your comments and attacks at my education as an act of flaming. > > > > New Message Search > > Find the message you want faster. Visit your group to try out the > improved message search. > > Share feedback on the new changes to Groups > <http://us.lrd./_ylc=X3oDMTJtcTYwNWlvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzIEZ3JwSWQDOT\ Q5NTk3NwRncnBzcElkAzE2MDAwNjA4MTQEc2VjA25jbW9kBHNsawNmZGJjawRzdGltZQMxMTUzNTcwMT\ Ew;_ylg=1/SIG=11im36rmb/**http%3a//surveylink./wix/p1412899.aspx> > > Recent Activity > > * > 7 > New Members > <Chinese Medicine/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJ\ mdmE2M3FiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDYwODE0BHNlYwN2dGw\ Ec2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzExNTM1NzAxMTE-> > * > 1 > New Links > <Chinese Medicine/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJnY\ mdxc2VoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDYwODE0BHNlYwN2dGwEc\ 2xrA3ZsaW5rcwRzdGltZQMxMTUzNTcwMTEx> > > Visit Your Group > <Chinese Medicine;_ylc=X3oDMTJlanFiYmk\ wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDYwODE0BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3Z\ naHAEc3RpbWUDMTE1MzU3MDExMQ--> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2006 Report Share Posted July 24, 2006 Anne and others, my remarks on education and aristolochic acid were not meant to be taken personal. China has a tradition of not reporting on adverse events. Aristolochic acid and side-effects of traditional Chinese medicine are seldom mentioned in the Chinese curriculum. I'm from Belgium, where >35 people died as a direct result from kidney cancer due to aristolochic acid in a slimming formula. As practitioners we all need to be aware of these dangers, no matter where we got our education. When we prescribe formulas we have to think about the ingredients, and the sources of the herbs- and if those sources can be trusted. Chinese patents, sadly, are not to be trusted. I believe that every importer of Chinese herbs should test for authenticity, pesticides, heavy metal residues, toxicity and molding. If they don't, I wouldn't buy from them. These issues are too risky to neglect. Regards, Tom. ---- Anne Crowley 07/23/06 03:32:50 Chinese Medicine Re: Chinese medicine gave man cancer Yes, Attilio, I tend to agree with you. We all need to treat each other with respect. This is a forum to learn from each other, not attack. It really doesn't serve anyone to get in that conversation. Anne Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > Tom, > > I regard your comments and attacks at my education as an act of flaming. > > > New Message Search Find the message you want faster. Visit your group to try out the improved message search. Share feedback on the new changes to Groups Recent Activity 7New Members 1New Links Visit Your Group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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