Guest guest Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Hi All, Can any of you cite studies, preferably with abstracts, that prove (or suggest strongly) that AP can induce abortion on its own? If not, the opinion by some listers that one can use AP safely in pregnancy (i.e. with no or minimal risk of inducing miscarriage / abortion), may be well founded. A search of Pubmed Medline gives several abstracts that show that AP has significant effects in induction of birth near full term, inhibition of threatened miscarriage, analgesia for obstetric operations, including cervical dilation for D & C and abortion by suction, and assisting the expulsion of uterine contents in abortion induced by drugs/herbs.. HOWEVER, there is little evidence in Medline that AP can induce abortion on its own. See abstracts, below. Best regards, Liang S, Guo Q, Bi XX, Zhang Y, Li TJ, Lin ZC. [Clinical pathological observation on acupuncture increasing medicine-induced complete abortion rate] [Article in Chinese] Zhongguo Zhen Jiu. 2005 Oct;25(10):696-8. Obstetrical and Gynecological Department, Shijiazhuang Fourth Hospital, Hebei 050011, China. skykenbao OBJECTIVE: To probe into the method for effectively increasing complete abortion rate of medicine- induced abortion and observe pathological changes. METHODS: Two hundred cases were randomly divided into an observation group and a control group, 100 cases in each group. The observation group were treated by acupuncture at Hegu (LI 4), Sanyinjiao (SP 6), Neiguan (PC 6) and Kunlun (BL 60), and the control group were not treated by acupuncture. The abortion rate, bleeding condition, adverse reaction and pathological changes were observed in the two groups. RESULTS: The complete abortion rate was 96.0% in the observation group, better than 88.0% in the control group (P < 0.05). There were significant differences between the two groups in bleeding time and pathological changes (P < 0.05). CONCLUSION: Acupuncture can increase complete abortion rate of medicine-induced abortion, with shorter bleeding time and less residual villus. PMID: 16318127 [PubMed - in process] Ding M, Xue WH, Zhang Y, Yan JY, Wang YJ. [Observation on clinical therapeutic effect of acupuncture combined with medicine on abortion] [Article in Chinese] Zhongguo Zhen Jiu. 2005 Oct;25(10):693-5. Hebei TCM Hospital, Shijiazhuang 050011, China. minding2005 OBJECTIVE: To observe clinical therapeutic effect of acupuncture combined with medicine on abortion. METHODS: Two hundred and twenty- six cases of early pregnancy who asked medicine-induced abortion were divided into a treatment group and control groups A and B. In the treatment group, after taking the final once medicine acupuncture treatment was given, and in the control group A, after taking the final once medicine oral administration of ShengHua Tang, and the control group B were treated by nothing. RESULTS: The complete abortion rate, colporrhagia lasting time, amount of bleeding in the treatment group were superior to those in the control groups (P < 0.05). The amount of bleeding in the control group A was superior to that in the control group B (P < 0.05). CONCLUSION: Acupuncture can increase the complete abortion rate, shorten colporrhagia lasting time, reduce bleeding amount and increase sensitivity of the organism to medicine. PMID: 16318126 [PubMed - in process] Ying YK, Lin JT, Robins J. Acupuncture for the induction of cervical dilatation in preparation for first-trimester abortion and its influence on HCG. J Reprod Med. 1985 Jul;30(7):530-4. Cervical dilatation in preparation for first-trimester abortion using acupuncture at loci SP6 and LI4 was studied in 20 patients, who were compared to a control group in whom no preparation was used. Ninety percent of the patients had successful acupuncture procedures. As judged by Hegar dilators, the increase in cervical dilatation in those 18 patients was significantly greater than in the controls. No significant side effects were observed. The effect of acupuncture on serum human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG) as a pregnancy marker was evaluated in 12 patients. No statistically significant difference in the change in HCG was noted in terms of the controls, indicating an absence of abortifacient activity with acupuncture. PMID: 4032390 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Xiao B, Wang M. Birth control techniques in China. China Popul Newsl. 1983 Dec;1(2):1-7. This article describes the major birth control techniques in use in China, based on data from a contraceptive prevalence study conducted in September, 1982. 118 million of the 170 million married women of child bearing age use birth control. IUD insertion accounts for 50.2% of birth control methods used, tubal ligation accounts for 25.4%, vas deferens ligation 10.0% oral contraceptives (OCs) 8.2%, and condoms 2.0%. A table of clinical data on 9 China made IUDs reveals that pregnancy rates range from 0 (V Cu-300 model) to 5.83% (mixed ring model). A method of IUD insertion immediately after delivery has been researched and adopted, using a silastic Delta IUD with barium added to reduce the high postpartum expulsion rate. fixing the IUD by sutures during Cesarean section has also been developed. Electronmicroscopic studies of the endometrium of women who have used a stainless steel IUD for more than 20 years showes no tendency towards malignancy, nor negative effects on the endocrine functions of the ovaries. 28 million Chinese women have accepted sterilization as of June, 1982. Local anesthesia and the use of acupuncture have reduced complications due to general anesthesia seen previously. Sterilization by means of chemically induced adhesion of Fallopian tube tissue has also been performed successfully; however, this method makes later anastomosis difficult, and is not suitable for young women with only 1 child. Fallopian tube occlusion by means of a silver clip has been performed in 1,128 cases, with a pregnancy rate of only .85%. 10.62 million men have accepted sterilization. While most of the procedures are val ligations, 300,000 men have been sterilized by direct injection of an adhesive agent throuh the skin of the scrotum. No increase in auto immune or vascular disease has been found. 3 low-dose OCs, used since 1969, have proven to be reliable and freer of side effects than higher-dose compounds. In addition, longterm OCs containing quinestrol have been used since 1969 with a success rate of 98.3% women-year. These pills are taken 1x monthly. R and D priority will be given be given to monthly injectable contraceptives; megestrol and norethindrone are the compounds most preferable. In trials so far, the effective rate has been 99.9% with mild side effects. Gossypol, a male contraceptive, has shown an antifertility effect in 99% of 8000 cases studied; however, hypokalemia and irreversibility of spermatogenesis were reported in some cases. Vacuum suction is the most common method for abortion, but Radix Trichosanthis and lilac daphne terpine, traditional abortifacients, anre acceptable for 1st trimester abortions. Prostaglandins are also used. PMID: 12312957 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Serfaty D, Buttigieg C, Dreyfus R. [induced abortion under acupunctural analgesia (25 cases)] [Article in French] Contracept Fertil Sex (Paris). 1979 Aug;7(8):557-62. The article reports on the first 25 cases of induced abortion practiced under acupunctural analgesia in France. 5 points were touched on the body, and 3 on the ear. The 25 patients, all between 19-40, did not feel any pain, except in one single case. Bleeding was minimal, duration of intervention about 10-15 minutes, and duration of hospitalization very short, about 2h.30'. The major advantages of analgesia through acupuncture are its total safety, and, especially, the fact that it leaves the patient totally conscious, establishing a better relationship between patient and doctor. PMID: 12278210 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Macaigne M, Playoust D, Sabbe G, Zylberberg G. [Analgesic abortion through acupuncture] [Article in English, French] Contracept Fertil Sex (Paris). 1979 Apr;7(4):265-70. Electroacupuncture was used to obtain analgesia in 100 cases, including abortion via curettage, cesarean section and regular delivery. Psychological factors such as anxiety and depression are not conducive to acupuncture. Patients undergoing the procedure should be informed about the intervention. Premedication is often advisable, although not always necessary. Analgesia is obtained about 20 minutes after starting stimulation of the points utilized; most of these are, for this procedure, located in the legs and arms. Results from the study of these cases were totally positive. PMID: 12309447 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] [No authors listed] [A symptom-complex during artificial abortion (author's transl)] [Article in Chinese] Zhonghua Fu Chan Ke Za Zhi. 1979 Apr;14(2):111-5. Some women undergo induced abortion manifest a series of symptoms such as slower heart beats, irregular heart rate, lowered blood pressure, paleness, dizziness and profuse perspiration. These symptoms, which occur during or after the procedure, are referred to as " a symptom complex. " In 1977, 400 pregnant women were studied to determine the cause of this symptom complex: 263 healthy women who received normal treatment; 32 women with heart ailments associated with early pregnancy, who received acupuncture; and 105 women whose heart rates were below 90, who were injected with 0.5 mg atropine. Virtually all of the 263 women had a slower heart rate during the procedure. 33 (12.55%) of these women exhibited the symptom complex, and of these, 23 (69.17%) had cramps, 17 (51.52%) had abdominal swelling, and 2 (6.09%) had backaches. Most of these symptoms occurred when the cervix dilated and after the suction. The duration and seriousness of the symptom complex varied from woman to woman, as did the recovery period, which ranged from 3 to 63 minutes. It was also found that: 1) of the 263 patients, 110 were first time mothers, of whom 15 (13.63%) had the symptom complex; 2) of the 221 healthy women who had abortion by suction, 32 (14.48%) had the symptom complex, while 1 (2.38%) who had abortion by pincers, had the symptom complex; 3) of the 33 women who had the symptom complex, the loss of blood ranged from 10 ml to 200 ml, with an average loss of 50 ml; 4) there appears to be no relationship between the manifestation of the symptom complex and negative pressure; 5) electrocardigrams were taken for 20 of the healthy patients, none of whom showed a quickened heart rate during or after the procedure; and 6) treatment for the symptom complex was by acupuncture or by injection of Atropine. The 32 acupuncture patients suffered only backaches and lower abdominal swelling, but relief of pain was slow. 105 patients were administered Atropine, none of whom manifested the symptom complex. Only 19 women perspired slightly and felt chilled in the limbs, while 3 were nauseous. Of the 33 symptom complex patients, 5 had Atropine, most of whose heart rates returned to normal after 2 seconds to 2 minutes, as did their dizziness, perspiration, and ashen coloring. However, it was found that if no treatment was given after the symptom complex emerged, a majority of the patients returned to normal on their own, some taking as long as an hour. It is believed the occurrence of the symptom complex is directly related to the mechanical stimulus applied to the uterus or cervix, the vigorous shrinkage of the uterus, loss of blood, and the negative pressure suction power of the uterine wall. Further a mechanical stimulus to the uterus can cause an " errant " nervous reflex that will affect the heart rate. This errant nervous reflex can be cut off by an injection of Atropine. PMID: 263029 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Janaud A. [i.V.G. with or without anesthesia] [Article in English, French] Contracept Fertil Sex (Paris). 1977 Dec;5(9):719-28. The need for general anesthesia in conjunction with vacuum aspiration abortions is discussed. General anesthesia is used in 75-85% of such operations performed in France. Iv anesthesia is used for general anesthesia in conjunction with vacuum aspiration abortions. General anesthesia is effective, safe, and rapid. Operations performed in conjunction with general anesthesia are generally better organized, with more trained medical personnel in attendance. The patient usually has more contact with medical personnel before the operation and for the approximate 12-hour hospitalization period after the operation. Conversely, bleeding is more abundant after general anesthesia and some patients have bad experiences (e.g., hallucinations) while being revived. The period of hospitalization and recuperation can be inconvenient. The paracervical block and cervical anesthesia are the types of local anesthesia used in performing vacuum aspiration abortions; tranquilizers are administered prior to the operation. Acupuncture and hypnotism have been used in a limited number of cases. The same surgical and postoperative safety measures should be followed for patients who have general or local anesthesia. Vacuum aspiration abortions should not be preformed under local anesthesia after the 9th week of pregnancy. Multiparae may undergo vacuum aspiration without local anesthesia if the dilation is not painful. Vacuum aspiration abortion may have undesirable psychological side effects. The routine for performing vacuum aspiration abortions may not be well organized. It would take about 15 minutes to perform the operation without general anesthesia. 25-33% of the women who want to undergo vacuum aspiration abortion should have general anesthesia. The advantages of local anesthesia are the fact that it offers an alternative, it is ambulatory, it reduces the cost of the operation, and more of the patients return for checkups. PMID: 12308837 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Tsuei JJ, Lai Y, Sharma SD. The influence of acupuncture stimulation during pregnancy: the induction and inhibition of labor. Obstet Gynecol. 1977 Oct;50(4):479-8. Uterine response to electroacupuncture stimulation of specific sites of the extremities is demonstrated in 60 pregnant women-- 48 cases for labor induction and 12 cases for inhibition of premature labor. In the 34 term, post-term, and 7 intrauterine fetal death cases, induction of labor was attempted; in 32 cases delivery was achieved, resulting in a success rate of 78%. In 7 cases of midterm abortion attempts, all failed to respond. Of the 12 cases of premature labor, with the exception of 1 case, all carried the pregnancy to term, resulting in a success rate of 91.6%. Based on these clinical observations, electroacupuncture may become a useful tool in controlling labor. The possible mechanism of action is discussed. Further investigation and standardization of this technique is proposed. PMID: 904813 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Best regards, HOME + WORK: 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel: (H): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0) < " Man who says it can't be done should not interrupt man doing it " - Chinese Proverb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 , " " < wrote: > > > Ying YK, Lin JT, Robins J. Acupuncture for the induction of cervical > dilatation in preparation for first-trimester abortion and its influence on HCG. > As judged by Hegar dilators, the increase in cervical dilatation > in those 18 patients was significantly greater than in the controls. Phil, Thanks for looking up the studies, very interesting. OK, so if you had a patient who had an incompetent cervix (what a term....), if this study is representational (the n. is small, but its not an easy study to organize), then one would think that acupuncture should then be used with a certain amount of caution. So to be on the safe side, if you dont necessarily know whether a primipara patient has an incompetent cervix, what should you then do? Regards, Lea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 I will search wanfangdata when I get my new login. I should get it in a few days. Tom. ---- 06/21/06 03:37:23 traditional_Chinese_Medicine ; Cc: Pa-l ; PVA-L Acupuncture as an abortifacient per se - a myth? We Made Changes Your email is all new. Learn More Share Feedback Recent Activity 6New Members 1New Files Visit Your Group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Dear Lea, Phil, et al, I am reminded of a wonderful book by the late Paavo Airola, " Every Woman's book " in which he contends that as important as the 9 months post-partum and the 9 month of pregnancy are the 9 months before conception. Is not the increased likelihood of spontaneous abortion in patients with incompetent cervix having received acupuncture, not indicative of the body's wisdom and integrity in saying that this woman is perhaps not healthy enough, and needs to be more prepared, not unlike an athlete preparing for a marathon? Just some musing... Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER, TJM --- Lea Starck <leabun1 wrote: > , " Phil > Rogers " > < wrote: > > > > > > Ying YK, Lin JT, Robins J. Acupuncture for the > induction of > cervical > > dilatation in preparation for first-trimester > abortion and its > influence on HCG. > > As judged by Hegar dilators, the increase in > cervical dilatation > > in those 18 patients was significantly greater > than in the > controls. > > Phil, > Thanks for looking up the studies, very interesting. > > OK, so if you had a patient who had an incompetent > cervix (what a > term....), if this study is representational (the n. > is small, but > its not an easy study to organize), then one would > think that > acupuncture should then be used with a certain > amount of caution. So > to be on the safe side, if you dont necessarily know > whether a > primipara patient has an incompetent cervix, what > should you then > do? > Regards, > Lea. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Yehuda, On one level, say an evolutionary biological level, what you are saying is right. Perhaps the hypothetical womans body is not prepared to harbour a pregnancy if spontaneous abortion were to happen. However, if someone as a practitioner did something to knowingly create this situation, then it sort of smacks of eugenics. As a practitioner, I think that if you can avoid something that would result in an outcome like this, and perhaps supply a therapy that would help to retain the pregnancy, then this of course would be the best option. Unfortunately, pregnancies are not like marathons, for many women, there may not be a " next time " . Given a choice, many women would rather suffer a toll on their own bodies and carry the baby to term. As for the pre-gestational period being equally important,this is very true. In some cases it is more important. I remember reading studies that were done in women in europe (holland?) in the aftermath of world war 2, that showed that maternal nutrition before pregnancy (in particular during teenage years? I wish I could remember better) was more important than maternal nutrition during pregnancy in terms of a successful pregnancy outcome. It is also important in terms of folate levels in the body following a pregnancy, where if a woman has pregnancies too close together then folate levels can be inadequate. TCM also believes that a babies congenital endowment can be insufficient if pregancies are too close together or the mother is older. Regards, Lea. , yehuda frischman < wrote: > > Dear Lea, Phil, et al, > > I am reminded of a wonderful book by the late Paavo > Airola, " Every Woman's book " in which he contends that > as important as the 9 months post-partum and the 9 > month of pregnancy are the 9 months before conception. > Is not the increased likelihood of spontaneous > abortion in patients with incompetent cervix having > received acupuncture, not indicative of the body's > wisdom and integrity in saying that this woman is > perhaps not healthy enough, and needs to be more > prepared, not unlike an athlete preparing for a > marathon? Just some musing... > > Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER, TJM > > --- Lea Starck <leabun1 wrote: > > > , " Phil > > Rogers " > > <@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Ying YK, Lin JT, Robins J. Acupuncture for the > > induction of > > cervical > > > dilatation in preparation for first-trimester > > abortion and its > > influence on HCG. > > > As judged by Hegar dilators, the increase in > > cervical dilatation > > > in those 18 patients was significantly greater > > than in the > > controls. > > > > Phil, > > Thanks for looking up the studies, very interesting. > > > > OK, so if you had a patient who had an incompetent > > cervix (what a > > term....), if this study is representational (the n. > > is small, but > > its not an easy study to organize), then one would > > think that > > acupuncture should then be used with a certain > > amount of caution. So > > to be on the safe side, if you dont necessarily know > > whether a > > primipara patient has an incompetent cervix, what > > should you then > > do? > > Regards, > > Lea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Just a further thought. Legally, malpractice is determined by the " but for " concept. " But for your actions / treatment, would the outcome have occurred? " In the situation outlined below, what do others think, bearing " but for " in mind? Regards, Lea. , yehuda frischman < wrote: > > Dear Lea, Phil, et al, > > I am reminded of a wonderful book by the late Paavo > Airola, " Every Woman's book " in which he contends that > as important as the 9 months post-partum and the 9 > month of pregnancy are the 9 months before conception. > Is not the increased likelihood of spontaneous > abortion in patients with incompetent cervix having > received acupuncture, not indicative of the body's > wisdom and integrity in saying that this woman is > perhaps not healthy enough, and needs to be more > prepared, not unlike an athlete preparing for a > marathon? Just some musing... > > Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER, TJM > > --- Lea Starck <leabun1 wrote: > > > , " Phil > > Rogers " > > <@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Ying YK, Lin JT, Robins J. Acupuncture for the > > induction of > > cervical > > > dilatation in preparation for first-trimester > > abortion and its > > influence on HCG. > > > As judged by Hegar dilators, the increase in > > cervical dilatation > > > in those 18 patients was significantly greater > > than in the > > controls. > > > > Phil, > > Thanks for looking up the studies, very interesting. > > > > OK, so if you had a patient who had an incompetent > > cervix (what a > > term....), if this study is representational (the n. > > is small, but > > its not an easy study to organize), then one would > > think that > > acupuncture should then be used with a certain > > amount of caution. So > > to be on the safe side, if you dont necessarily know > > whether a > > primipara patient has an incompetent cervix, what > > should you then > > do? > > Regards, > > Lea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 I absolutely agree with you, and of course was speaking in an ideal world. G-d forbid I would ever encourage, nor even worse contribute to abortion. I hope as time goes on, that our role as educators, promoting wellness rather than reacting to imbalance and illness becomes more accepted, and available to everyone, not just the wealthy. y --- Lea Starck <leabun1 wrote: > Yehuda, > On one level, say an evolutionary biological level, > what you are > saying is right. Perhaps the hypothetical womans > body is not > prepared to harbour a pregnancy if spontaneous > abortion were to > happen. However, if someone as a practitioner did > something to > knowingly create this situation, then it sort of > smacks of eugenics. > As a practitioner, I think that if you can avoid > something that > would result in an outcome like this, and perhaps > supply a therapy > that would help to retain the pregnancy, then this > of course would > be the best option. Unfortunately, pregnancies are > not like > marathons, for many women, there may not be a " next > time " . Given a > choice, many women would rather suffer a toll on > their own bodies > and carry the baby to term. > As for the pre-gestational period being equally > important,this is > very true. In some cases it is more important. I > remember reading > studies that were done in women in europe (holland?) > in the > aftermath of world war 2, that showed that maternal > nutrition before > pregnancy (in particular during teenage years? I > wish I could > remember better) was more important than maternal > nutrition during > pregnancy in terms of a successful pregnancy > outcome. It is also > important in terms of folate levels in the body > following a > pregnancy, where if a woman has pregnancies too > close together then > folate levels can be inadequate. TCM also believes > that a babies > congenital endowment can be insufficient if > pregancies are too close > together or the mother is older. > Regards, > Lea. > , yehuda > frischman > < wrote: > > > > Dear Lea, Phil, et al, > > > > I am reminded of a wonderful book by the late > Paavo > > Airola, " Every Woman's book " in which he contends > that > > as important as the 9 months post-partum and the 9 > > month of pregnancy are the 9 months before > conception. > > Is not the increased likelihood of spontaneous > > abortion in patients with incompetent cervix > having > > received acupuncture, not indicative of the body's > > wisdom and integrity in saying that this woman is > > perhaps not healthy enough, and needs to be more > > prepared, not unlike an athlete preparing for a > > marathon? Just some musing... > > > > Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER, TJM > > > > --- Lea Starck <leabun1 wrote: > > > > > , " Phil > > > Rogers " > > > <@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ying YK, Lin JT, Robins J. Acupuncture for the > > > induction of > > > cervical > > > > dilatation in preparation for first-trimester > > > abortion and its > > > influence on HCG. > > > > As judged by Hegar dilators, the increase in > > > cervical dilatation > > > > in those 18 patients was significantly greater > > > than in the > > > controls. > > > > > > Phil, > > > Thanks for looking up the studies, very > interesting. > > > > > > OK, so if you had a patient who had an > incompetent > > > cervix (what a > > > term....), if this study is representational > (the n. > > > is small, but > > > its not an easy study to organize), then one > would > > > think that > > > acupuncture should then be used with a certain > > > amount of caution. So > > > to be on the safe side, if you dont necessarily > know > > > whether a > > > primipara patient has an incompetent cervix, > what > > > should you then > > > do? > > > Regards, > > > Lea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam > protection around > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Sorry Yehuda, I wish to retract what I said about eugenics, perhaps not the wisest choice of words. I should instead have said it was a bit darwinian. Old foot-in-mouth-disease acting up again. regards, Lea. , yehuda frischman < wrote: > > I absolutely agree with you, and of course was > speaking in an ideal world. G-d forbid I would ever > encourage, nor even worse contribute to abortion. I > hope as time goes on, that our role as educators, > promoting wellness rather than reacting to imbalance > and illness becomes more accepted, and available to > everyone, not just the wealthy. > > y > > --- Lea Starck <leabun1 wrote: > > > Yehuda, > > On one level, say an evolutionary biological level, > > what you are > > saying is right. Perhaps the hypothetical womans > > body is not > > prepared to harbour a pregnancy if spontaneous > > abortion were to > > happen. However, if someone as a practitioner did > > something to > > knowingly create this situation, then it sort of > > smacks of eugenics. > > As a practitioner, I think that if you can avoid > > something that > > would result in an outcome like this, and perhaps > > supply a therapy > > that would help to retain the pregnancy, then this > > of course would > > be the best option. Unfortunately, pregnancies are > > not like > > marathons, for many women, there may not be a " next > > time " . Given a > > choice, many women would rather suffer a toll on > > their own bodies > > and carry the baby to term. > > As for the pre-gestational period being equally > > important,this is > > very true. In some cases it is more important. I > > remember reading > > studies that were done in women in europe (holland?) > > in the > > aftermath of world war 2, that showed that maternal > > nutrition before > > pregnancy (in particular during teenage years? I > > wish I could > > remember better) was more important than maternal > > nutrition during > > pregnancy in terms of a successful pregnancy > > outcome. It is also > > important in terms of folate levels in the body > > following a > > pregnancy, where if a woman has pregnancies too > > close together then > > folate levels can be inadequate. TCM also believes > > that a babies > > congenital endowment can be insufficient if > > pregancies are too close > > together or the mother is older. > > Regards, > > Lea. > > , yehuda > > frischman > > <@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Lea, Phil, et al, > > > > > > I am reminded of a wonderful book by the late > > Paavo > > > Airola, " Every Woman's book " in which he contends > > that > > > as important as the 9 months post-partum and the 9 > > > month of pregnancy are the 9 months before > > conception. > > > Is not the increased likelihood of spontaneous > > > abortion in patients with incompetent cervix > > having > > > received acupuncture, not indicative of the body's > > > wisdom and integrity in saying that this woman is > > > perhaps not healthy enough, and needs to be more > > > prepared, not unlike an athlete preparing for a > > > marathon? Just some musing... > > > > > > Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER, TJM > > > > > > --- Lea Starck <leabun1@> wrote: > > > > > > > , " Phil > > > > Rogers " > > > > <@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ying YK, Lin JT, Robins J. Acupuncture for the > > > > induction of > > > > cervical > > > > > dilatation in preparation for first-trimester > > > > abortion and its > > > > influence on HCG. > > > > > As judged by Hegar dilators, the increase in > > > > cervical dilatation > > > > > in those 18 patients was significantly greater > > > > than in the > > > > controls. > > > > > > > > Phil, > > > > Thanks for looking up the studies, very > > interesting. > > > > > > > > OK, so if you had a patient who had an > > incompetent > > > > cervix (what a > > > > term....), if this study is representational > > (the n. > > > > is small, but > > > > its not an easy study to organize), then one > > would > > > > think that > > > > acupuncture should then be used with a certain > > > > amount of caution. So > > > > to be on the safe side, if you dont necessarily > > know > > > > whether a > > > > primipara patient has an incompetent cervix, > > what > > > > should you then > > > > do? > > > > Regards, > > > > Lea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam > > protection around > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Hi All- Some years ago, a friend of mine called me in a panic, thinking whe was pregnant with an unwanted pregnancy. She asked her acupuncturist is there was something she could do to facilitate an abortion, and the acupuncturist's response (who is also a friend of mine) was that it was outside of the scope of her practice. If a woman came to me with this dilemma, and I could safely do an effective procedure, I wouldn't hesitate, if it was covered in my scope of practice. But it isn't. For me, this is more an issue of legality and safety, than of ethics or religion. --- wrote: > I absolutely agree with you, and of course was > speaking in an ideal world. G-d forbid I would ever > encourage, nor even worse contribute to abortion. I > hope as time goes on, that our role as educators, > promoting wellness rather than reacting to imbalance > and illness becomes more accepted, and available to > everyone, not just the wealthy. > > y > > --- Lea Starck <leabun1 wrote: > > > Yehuda, > > On one level, say an evolutionary biological level, > > what you are > > saying is right. Perhaps the hypothetical womans > > body is not > > prepared to harbour a pregnancy if spontaneous > > abortion were to > > happen. However, if someone as a practitioner did > > something to > > knowingly create this situation, then it sort of > > smacks of eugenics. > > As a practitioner, I think that if you can avoid > > something that > > would result in an outcome like this, and perhaps > > supply a therapy > > that would help to retain the pregnancy, then this > > of course would > > be the best option. Unfortunately, pregnancies are > > not like > > marathons, for many women, there may not be a " next > > time " . Given a > > choice, many women would rather suffer a toll on > > their own bodies > > and carry the baby to term. > > As for the pre-gestational period being equally > > important,this is > > very true. In some cases it is more important. I > > remember reading > > studies that were done in women in europe (holland?) > > in the > > aftermath of world war 2, that showed that maternal > > nutrition before > > pregnancy (in particular during teenage years? I > > wish I could > > remember better) was more important than maternal > > nutrition during > > pregnancy in terms of a successful pregnancy > > outcome. It is also > > important in terms of folate levels in the body > > following a > > pregnancy, where if a woman has pregnancies too > > close together then > > folate levels can be inadequate. TCM also believes > > that a babies > > congenital endowment can be insufficient if > > pregancies are too close > > together or the mother is older. > > Regards, > > Lea. > > , yehuda > > frischman > > < wrote: > > > > > > Dear Lea, Phil, et al, > > > > > > I am reminded of a wonderful book by the late > > Paavo > > > Airola, " Every Woman's book " in which he contends > > that > > > as important as the 9 months post-partum and the 9 > > > month of pregnancy are the 9 months before > > conception. > > > Is not the increased likelihood of spontaneous > > > abortion in patients with incompetent cervix > > having > > > received acupuncture, not indicative of the body's > > > wisdom and integrity in saying that this woman is > > > perhaps not healthy enough, and needs to be more > > > prepared, not unlike an athlete preparing for a > > > marathon? Just some musing... > > > > > > Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER, TJM > > > > > > --- Lea Starck <leabun1 wrote: > > > > > > > , " Phil > > > > Rogers " > > > > <@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ying YK, Lin JT, Robins J. Acupuncture for the > > > > induction of > > > > cervical > > > > > dilatation in preparation for first-trimester > > > > abortion and its > > > > influence on HCG. > > > > > As judged by Hegar dilators, the increase in > > > > cervical dilatation > > > > > in those 18 patients was significantly greater > > > > than in the > > > > controls. > > > > > > > > Phil, > > > > Thanks for looking up the studies, very > > interesting. > > > > > > > > OK, so if you had a patient who had an > > incompetent > > > > cervix (what a > > > > term....), if this study is representational > > (the n. > > > > is small, but > > > > its not an easy study to organize), then one > > would > > > > think that > > > > acupuncture should then be used with a certain > > > > amount of caution. So > > > > to be on the safe side, if you dont necessarily > > know > > > > whether a > > > > primipara patient has an incompetent cervix, > > what > > > > should you then > > > > do? > > > > Regards, > > > > Lea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam > > protection around > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Completely understood as not being mean spirited. But also prompting a necessary disclaimer on my part. So for that, thank you! --- Lea Starck <leabun1 wrote: > Sorry Yehuda, > I wish to retract what I said about eugenics, > perhaps not the wisest > choice of words. I should instead have said it was a > bit darwinian. > Old foot-in-mouth-disease acting up again. > regards, > Lea. > , yehuda > frischman > < wrote: > > > > I absolutely agree with you, and of course was > > speaking in an ideal world. G-d forbid I would > ever > > encourage, nor even worse contribute to abortion. > I > > hope as time goes on, that our role as educators, > > promoting wellness rather than reacting to > imbalance > > and illness becomes more accepted, and available > to > > everyone, not just the wealthy. > > > > y > > > > --- Lea Starck <leabun1 wrote: > > > > > Yehuda, > > > On one level, say an evolutionary biological > level, > > > what you are > > > saying is right. Perhaps the hypothetical womans > > > body is not > > > prepared to harbour a pregnancy if spontaneous > > > abortion were to > > > happen. However, if someone as a practitioner > did > > > something to > > > knowingly create this situation, then it sort of > > > smacks of eugenics. > > > As a practitioner, I think that if you can avoid > > > something that > > > would result in an outcome like this, and > perhaps > > > supply a therapy > > > that would help to retain the pregnancy, then > this > > > of course would > > > be the best option. Unfortunately, pregnancies > are > > > not like > > > marathons, for many women, there may not be a > " next > > > time " . Given a > > > choice, many women would rather suffer a toll on > > > their own bodies > > > and carry the baby to term. > > > As for the pre-gestational period being equally > > > important,this is > > > very true. In some cases it is more important. I > > > remember reading > > > studies that were done in women in europe > (holland?) > > > in the > > > aftermath of world war 2, that showed that > maternal > > > nutrition before > > > pregnancy (in particular during teenage years? I > > > wish I could > > > remember better) was more important than > maternal > > > nutrition during > > > pregnancy in terms of a successful pregnancy > > > outcome. It is also > > > important in terms of folate levels in the body > > > following a > > > pregnancy, where if a woman has pregnancies too > > > close together then > > > folate levels can be inadequate. TCM also > believes > > > that a babies > > > congenital endowment can be insufficient if > > > pregancies are too close > > > together or the mother is older. > > > Regards, > > > Lea. > > > , > yehuda > > > frischman > > > <@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Lea, Phil, et al, > > > > > > > > I am reminded of a wonderful book by the late > > > Paavo > > > > Airola, " Every Woman's book " in which he > contends > > > that > > > > as important as the 9 months post-partum and > the 9 > > > > month of pregnancy are the 9 months before > > > conception. > > > > Is not the increased likelihood of > spontaneous > > > > abortion in patients with incompetent cervix > > > having > > > > received acupuncture, not indicative of the > body's > > > > wisdom and integrity in saying that this > woman is > > > > perhaps not healthy enough, and needs to be > more > > > > prepared, not unlike an athlete preparing for > a > > > > marathon? Just some musing... > > > > > > > > Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER, TJM > > > > > > > > --- Lea Starck <leabun1@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > , > " Phil > > > > > Rogers " > > > > > <@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ying YK, Lin JT, Robins J. Acupuncture for > the > > > > > induction of > > > > > cervical > > > > > > dilatation in preparation for > first-trimester > > > > > abortion and its > > > > > influence on HCG. > > > > > > As judged by Hegar dilators, the increase > in > > > > > cervical dilatation > > > > > > in those 18 patients was significantly > greater > > > > > than in the > > > > > controls. > > > > > > > > > > Phil, > > > > > Thanks for looking up the studies, very > > > interesting. > > > > > > > > > > OK, so if you had a patient who had an > > > incompetent > > > > > cervix (what a > > > > > term....), if this study is representational > > > (the n. > > > > > is small, but > > > > > its not an easy study to organize), then one > > > would > > > > > think that > > > > > acupuncture should then be used with a > certain > > > > > amount of caution. So > > > > > to be on the safe side, if you dont > necessarily > > > know > > > > > whether a > > > > > primipara patient has an incompetent cervix, > > > what > > > > > should you then > > > > > do? > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Lea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam > > > protection around > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam > protection around > > > === message truncated === Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 It is more than a legal issue. Pregnancy is a righteous state. Choosing points to undermine a pregnancy goes against a woman's health. The is nothing ³natural² about it. I wont do it. At the moment a surgical abortion is safe, sterile and over in 5 minutes. Women fought hard for this right. Unfortunately this administration keep chipping away at it. If roe v. wade is ever overturned I will consider changing my mind on this. -- Cara O. Frank, R.Ac, Dipl Ac & Ch.H. President China Herb Company Program Director of the Chinese Herb Program Tai Sophia Institute for the Healing Arts office: 215- 438-2977 fax: 215-849-3338 Www.chinaherbco.com Www.carafrank.com < Thu, 22 Jun 2006 00:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Re: Re: Acupuncture as an abortifacient per se - a myth? Hi All- Some years ago, a friend of mine called me in a panic, thinking whe was pregnant with an unwanted pregnancy. She asked her acupuncturist is there was something she could do to facilitate an abortion, and the acupuncturist's response (who is also a friend of mine) was that it was outside of the scope of her practice. If a woman came to me with this dilemma, and I could safely do an effective procedure, I wouldn't hesitate, if it was covered in my scope of practice. But it isn't. For me, this is more an issue of legality and safety, than of ethics or religion. --- <%40> > wrote: > I absolutely agree with you, and of course was > speaking in an ideal world. G-d forbid I would ever > encourage, nor even worse contribute to abortion. I > hope as time goes on, that our role as educators, > promoting wellness rather than reacting to imbalance > and illness becomes more accepted, and available to > everyone, not just the wealthy. > > y > > --- Lea Starck <leabun1 <leabun1%40.au> > wrote: > > > Yehuda, > > On one level, say an evolutionary biological level, > > what you are > > saying is right. Perhaps the hypothetical womans > > body is not > > prepared to harbour a pregnancy if spontaneous > > abortion were to > > happen. However, if someone as a practitioner did > > something to > > knowingly create this situation, then it sort of > > smacks of eugenics. > > As a practitioner, I think that if you can avoid > > something that > > would result in an outcome like this, and perhaps > > supply a therapy > > that would help to retain the pregnancy, then this > > of course would > > be the best option. Unfortunately, pregnancies are > > not like > > marathons, for many women, there may not be a " next > > time " . Given a > > choice, many women would rather suffer a toll on > > their own bodies > > and carry the baby to term. > > As for the pre-gestational period being equally > > important,this is > > very true. In some cases it is more important. I > > remember reading > > studies that were done in women in europe (holland?) > > in the > > aftermath of world war 2, that showed that maternal > > nutrition before > > pregnancy (in particular during teenage years? I > > wish I could > > remember better) was more important than maternal > > nutrition during > > pregnancy in terms of a successful pregnancy > > outcome. It is also > > important in terms of folate levels in the body > > following a > > pregnancy, where if a woman has pregnancies too > > close together then > > folate levels can be inadequate. TCM also believes > > that a babies > > congenital endowment can be insufficient if > > pregancies are too close > > together or the mother is older. > > Regards, > > Lea. > > <%40> , yehuda > > frischman > > < wrote: > > > > > > Dear Lea, Phil, et al, > > > > > > I am reminded of a wonderful book by the late > > Paavo > > > Airola, " Every Woman's book " in which he contends > > that > > > as important as the 9 months post-partum and the 9 > > > month of pregnancy are the 9 months before > > conception. > > > Is not the increased likelihood of spontaneous > > > abortion in patients with incompetent cervix > > having > > > received acupuncture, not indicative of the body's > > > wisdom and integrity in saying that this woman is > > > perhaps not healthy enough, and needs to be more > > > prepared, not unlike an athlete preparing for a > > > marathon? Just some musing... > > > > > > Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER, TJM > > > > > > --- Lea Starck <leabun1 wrote: > > > > > > > <%40> , " Phil > > > > Rogers " > > > > <@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ying YK, Lin JT, Robins J. Acupuncture for the > > > > induction of > > > > cervical > > > > > dilatation in preparation for first-trimester > > > > abortion and its > > > > influence on HCG. > > > > > As judged by Hegar dilators, the increase in > > > > cervical dilatation > > > > > in those 18 patients was significantly greater > > > > than in the > > > > controls. > > > > > > > > Phil, > > > > Thanks for looking up the studies, very > > interesting. > > > > > > > > OK, so if you had a patient who had an > > incompetent > > > > cervix (what a > > > > term....), if this study is representational > > (the n. > > > > is small, but > > > > its not an easy study to organize), then one > > would > > > > think that > > > > acupuncture should then be used with a certain > > > > amount of caution. So > > > > to be on the safe side, if you dont necessarily > > know > > > > whether a > > > > primipara patient has an incompetent cervix, > > what > > > > should you then > > > > do? > > > > Regards, > > > > Lea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam > > protection around > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Cara, I agree with you. Yes, there are many women who would choose another option over abortion if there was one that was also safe and legal. One of my teachers argued that abortions also go against the health of the woman, so I guess that while abortion is " safe, legal and sterile " , there is truly no option that is totally free of complications and side effects. --- Cara Frank <herbbabe wrote: > It is more than a legal issue. Pregnancy is a righteous state. Choosing > points to undermine a pregnancy goes against a woman's health. The is > nothing ³natural² about it. I wont do it. At the moment a surgical > abortion is safe, sterile and over in 5 minutes. Women fought hard for this > right. Unfortunately this administration keep chipping away at it. > If roe v. wade is ever overturned I will consider changing my mind on this. > -- > Cara O. Frank, R.Ac, Dipl Ac & Ch.H. > President China Herb Company > Program Director of the Chinese Herb Program > Tai Sophia Institute for the Healing Arts > office: 215- 438-2977 > fax: 215-849-3338 > Www.chinaherbco.com > Www.carafrank.com > > > > > < > > Thu, 22 Jun 2006 00:08:57 -0700 (PDT) > > Re: Re: Acupuncture as an abortifacient per se - a myth? > > > > > > Hi All- > > Some years ago, a friend of mine called me in a panic, thinking whe was > pregnant > with an unwanted pregnancy. She asked her acupuncturist is there was > something she > could do to facilitate an abortion, and the acupuncturist's response (who is > also a > friend of mine) was that it was outside of the scope of her practice. If a > woman > came to me with this dilemma, and I could safely do an effective procedure, > I > wouldn't hesitate, if it was covered in my scope of practice. But it isn't. > For > me, this is more an issue of legality and safety, than of ethics or > religion. > > > > --- <%40> > > wrote: > > > I absolutely agree with you, and of course was > > speaking in an ideal world. G-d forbid I would ever > > encourage, nor even worse contribute to abortion. I > > hope as time goes on, that our role as educators, > > promoting wellness rather than reacting to imbalance > > and illness becomes more accepted, and available to > > everyone, not just the wealthy. > > > > y > > > > --- Lea Starck <leabun1 <leabun1%40.au> > wrote: > > > > > Yehuda, > > > On one level, say an evolutionary biological level, > > > what you are > > > saying is right. Perhaps the hypothetical womans > > > body is not > > > prepared to harbour a pregnancy if spontaneous > > > abortion were to > > > happen. However, if someone as a practitioner did > > > something to > > > knowingly create this situation, then it sort of > > > smacks of eugenics. > > > As a practitioner, I think that if you can avoid > > > something that > > > would result in an outcome like this, and perhaps > > > supply a therapy > > > that would help to retain the pregnancy, then this > > > of course would > > > be the best option. Unfortunately, pregnancies are > > > not like > > > marathons, for many women, there may not be a " next > > > time " . Given a > > > choice, many women would rather suffer a toll on > > > their own bodies > > > and carry the baby to term. > > > As for the pre-gestational period being equally > > > important,this is > > > very true. In some cases it is more important. I > > > remember reading > > > studies that were done in women in europe (holland?) > > > in the > > > aftermath of world war 2, that showed that maternal > > > nutrition before > > > pregnancy (in particular during teenage years? I > > > wish I could > > > remember better) was more important than maternal > > > nutrition during > > > pregnancy in terms of a successful pregnancy > > > outcome. It is also > > > important in terms of folate levels in the body > > > following a > > > pregnancy, where if a woman has pregnancies too > > > close together then > > > folate levels can be inadequate. TCM also believes > > > that a babies > > > congenital endowment can be insufficient if > > > pregancies are too close > > > together or the mother is older. > > > Regards, > > > Lea. > > > > <%40> , yehuda > > > frischman > > > < wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Lea, Phil, et al, > > > > > > > > I am reminded of a wonderful book by the late > > > Paavo > > > > Airola, " Every Woman's book " in which he contends > > > that > > > > as important as the 9 months post-partum and the 9 > > > > month of pregnancy are the 9 months before > > > conception. > > > > Is not the increased likelihood of spontaneous > > > > abortion in patients with incompetent cervix > > > having > > > > received acupuncture, not indicative of the body's > > > > wisdom and integrity in saying that this woman is > > > > perhaps not healthy enough, and needs to be more > > > > prepared, not unlike an athlete preparing for a > > > > marathon? Just some musing... > > > > > > > > Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER, TJM > > > > > > > > --- Lea Starck <leabun1 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > <%40> , " Phil > > > > > Rogers " > > > > > <@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ying YK, Lin JT, Robins J. Acupuncture for the > > > > > induction of > > > > > cervical > > > > > > dilatation in preparation for first-trimester > > > > > abortion and its > > > > > influence on HCG. > > > > > > As judged by Hegar dilators, the increase in > > > > > cervical dilatation > > > > > > in those 18 patients was significantly greater > > > > > than in the > > > > > controls. > > > > > > > > > > Phil, > > > > > Thanks for looking up the studies, very > > > interesting. > > > > > > > > > > OK, so if you had a patient who had an > > > incompetent > > > > > cervix (what a > > > > > term....), if this study is representational > > > (the n. > > > > > is small, but > > > > > its not an easy study to organize), then one > > > would > > > > > think that > > > > > acupuncture should then be used with a certain > > > > > amount of caution. So > > > > > to be on the safe side, if you dont necessarily > > > know > > > > > whether a > > > > > primipara patient has an incompetent cervix, > > > what > > > > > should you then > > > > > do? > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Lea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam > > > protection around > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Andrea Beth, This is actually a very complex issue. Many things to consider here: 1) All medical systems are ethical. Medicine is a profession that promotes and supports life and health, and overcomes disease. All life and quality of life issues involve ethics to some degree. 2) Chinese medicine would consider a woman's reasons for considering an abortion, including emotional, physiological and psychological issues before administering treatment. 3) There are, of course, malpractice issues galore. Think of the consequences of a partially successful abortifacient treatment, where the patient has to go on to a hospital to complete it. Think of family implications, where other family members, lovers or spouses were against the procedure. Having to deal with their wrath. I know of practitioners who lost their licenses for performing such procedures. I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. On Jun 22, 2006, at 12:08 AM, wrote: > Hi All- > > Some years ago, a friend of mine called me in a panic, thinking whe > was pregnant > with an unwanted pregnancy. She asked her acupuncturist is there > was something she > could do to facilitate an abortion, and the acupuncturist's > response (who is also a > friend of mine) was that it was outside of the scope of her > practice. If a woman > came to me with this dilemma, and I could safely do an effective > procedure, I > wouldn't hesitate, if it was covered in my scope of practice. But > it isn't. For > me, this is more an issue of legality and safety, than of ethics or > religion. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Thank you for your reply, Z'ev. You are right about medicine and ethics - what I wrote previously was about my personal ethics, and you are correct that any health practitioner must adhere to medical ethics as well. For all the reasons you list below, I also would refrain from using any procedures for the purpose of abortion inducement. --- <zrosenbe wrote: > Andrea Beth, > This is actually a very complex issue. Many things to consider > here: > > 1) All medical systems are ethical. Medicine is a profession that > promotes and supports life and health, and overcomes disease. All > life and quality of life issues involve ethics to some degree. > > 2) Chinese medicine would consider a woman's reasons for considering > an abortion, including emotional, physiological and psychological > issues before administering treatment. > > 3) There are, of course, malpractice issues galore. Think of the > consequences of a partially successful abortifacient treatment, where > the patient has to go on to a hospital to complete it. Think of > family implications, where other family members, lovers or spouses > were against the procedure. Having to deal with their wrath. > > I know of practitioners who lost their licenses for performing such > procedures. I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Hi, I agree with the scope of practice issue, and luckily in Australia relatively safe medical options are available regardless of mine or anyones personal ethics. (I say luckily because I am aware of what happened to womens health in this country in the past when backyard procedures were the norm. The Royal Women's hospital of Melbourne had an entire ward devoted to botched home abortion cases, and deaths were common.) Mefipristone has just been approved for use as an abortifacient in Australia, and if a patient came to me and said she had been prescribed this drug, then given some of the research that has been listed in this discussion, I would feel able to give her AP and / or herbal treatment to potentiate an abortion of this nature. In this situation I feel that the ethical and legal issues have already been dealt with by a western medical doctor and the patient. Lea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 , < wrote: > > Cara, > > I agree with you. Yes, there are many women who would choose another option over > abortion if there was one that was also safe and legal. It is an issue of efficacy. If simple acupuncture stimulation consistently and effectively induced abortions, it would be headline news. Think about it, if simple acupuncture was an effective means of inducing abortion, Chinese hospitals would no longer rely on surgery. It would be a widely-trumpeted achievement of acupuncture and would be an extremely low-cost therapy. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 And if it worked there would be less overpopulation and infanticide in china I imagine as well. In the pub med abstracts I did not notice any discussion of CV5. Did I miss something? Does anyone have experience with this? And also IMHO- herbal abortions are tremendously unsafe. Toxic doses are used ( as evidenced by many reports of death from pennyroyal). Many years ago I miscarried- but I didn¹t. The fetus died but did not expel. You would think this would have been easy to handle. I had acup w/e-stim. Herbs, homeopathy. Nothing worked and I made myself very sick. Ended up w/ a D and E a week later. Cara O. Frank, R.Ac, Dipl Ac & Ch.H. President China Herb Company Program Director of the Chinese Herb Program Tai Sophia Institute for the Healing Arts office: 215- 438-2977 fax: 215-849-3338 Www.chinaherbco.com Www.carafrank.com Eric Brand <smilinglotus Fri, 23 Jun 2006 04:40:08 +0000 Re: Acupuncture as an abortifacient per se - a myth? <%40> , < wrote: > > Cara, > > I agree with you. Yes, there are many women who would choose another option over > abortion if there was one that was also safe and legal. It is an issue of efficacy. If simple acupuncture stimulation consistently and effectively induced abortions, it would be headline news. Think about it, if simple acupuncture was an effective means of inducing abortion, Chinese hospitals would no longer rely on surgery. It would be a widely-trumpeted achievement of acupuncture and would be an extremely low-cost therapy. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 I think you are standing on very shaky ethical (and legal) ground here. . . .the decisions of the physician and patient do not relieve you of ethical responsibility. Ethics are embedded in medicine. Without ethics, one can rationalize any action. You still hold the responsibility of choosing to treat or not to treat this patient. On Jun 22, 2006, at 8:34 PM, Lea Starck wrote: > Hi, > I agree with the scope of practice issue, and luckily in Australia > relatively safe medical options are available regardless of mine or > anyones personal ethics. (I say luckily because I am aware of what > happened to womens health in this country in the past when backyard > procedures were the norm. The Royal Women's hospital of Melbourne had > an entire ward devoted to botched home abortion cases, and deaths were > common.) > Mefipristone has just been approved for use as an abortifacient in > Australia, and if a patient came to me and said she had been > prescribed > this drug, then given some of the research that has been listed in > this > discussion, I would feel able to give her AP and / or herbal treatment > to potentiate an abortion of this nature. In this situation I feel > that > the ethical and legal issues have already been dealt with by a western > medical doctor and the patient. > Lea. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 I think many people misunderstood me, just to clarify: When I said I agreed with the scope of practice issue, what I meant was that I agreed that abortions are far outside my scope of practice. And realistically, even for WM doctors who could include this in their scope of practice, how many actually do? If a patient has been prescribed mefipristone and have already taken the dosage and been sent home to await the " miscarriage " , then I see no harm in giving them TCM treatment. A TCM treatment would not be aimed at providing an abortion, but rather, caring for the holistic health of the patient. The mefipristone is the abortifacient, and the western medicine doctor who consulted with the patient and prescribed it is the abortionist. Not I. As a practitioner I am nowhere to be found in the actual matter of the abortion itself. If some of the research quoted shows that acupuncture can help dilate the cervix, and the patient has already taken the mefipristone, then that cervical dilation is to my mind a possible beneficial plus, but not the aim, of an AP treatment in this hypothetical circumstance. I did not actually mean or say that I would prescribe abortifacient herbs, but in the aftermath of a medical " miscarriage " of this nature, I can think of many herbs that would be beneficial to a patient. Actually, I can think of many herbs that would be beneficial to a patient who had a D and C as well. Mefipristone is prescribed and then the patient is sent home, there are many aspects of the ensuing experience where a caring TCM practitioner could be an enormous help to a patient, and where western medicine doesnt step in to fill the gap. In this country you are given brief counselling before an abortion, but nothing after. After a D and C you are not even given a medical exam in most cases, just " come back for a pap test. " Here in Melbourne there is a well known TCM gynaecologist who treats such cases as a dead foetus failing to descend. Often the herbs dont work, as he prefers to keep them fairly gentle, and the patient then needs a D and C, but in some circumstances, depending on the patient and the advancement of the pregnancy, its worth a shot. Lea , " " <zrosenbe wrote: > > I think you are standing on very shaky ethical (and legal) ground > here. . . .the decisions of the physician and patient do not relieve > you of ethical responsibility. Ethics are embedded in medicine. > Without ethics, one can rationalize any action. You still hold the > responsibility of choosing to treat or not to treat this patient. > > > On Jun 22, 2006, at 8:34 PM, Lea Starck wrote: > > > Hi, > > I agree with the scope of practice issue, and luckily in Australia > > relatively safe medical options are available regardless of mine or > > anyones personal ethics. (I say luckily because I am aware of what > > happened to womens health in this country in the past when backyard > > procedures were the norm. The Royal Women's hospital of Melbourne had > > an entire ward devoted to botched home abortion cases, and deaths were > > common.) > > Mefipristone has just been approved for use as an abortifacient in > > Australia, and if a patient came to me and said she had been > > prescribed > > this drug, then given some of the research that has been listed in > > this > > discussion, I would feel able to give her AP and / or herbal treatment > > to potentiate an abortion of this nature. In this situation I feel > > that > > the ethical and legal issues have already been dealt with by a western > > medical doctor and the patient. > > Lea. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 Hi there, Just coming back to the question now that I have some more time between patients. I think from rereading my post, that where confusion may have set in is the term " potentiate " . I did not mean " facilitate " , and Im sorry for giving the wrong impression. By potentiation I was not referring to using abortifacient herbs either. (And if a patient had taken mefipristone, what would be the point of using abortifacient herbs anyway?) Even for a retained foetus such as Cara wrote about (and Im sorry for your experience) it is not always necessary to use " abortifacients " per se. It depends on the differentiation of the patient, and as you mentioned is not always successfull. So, Z'ev, are you saying that if a patient had taken Mefipristone, as prescribed by a Doctor for the purposes of an abortion, and came to you for TCM treatment, you would feel like you were an abortionist if you then needled LI4 and Sp6? You would turn them away if they hadnt actually started to bleed yet? Or would you wait until after they had stopped bleeding? Or maybe not see them at all? Regards, Lea. , " " <zrosenbe wrote: > > I think you are standing on very shaky ethical (and legal) ground > here. . . .the decisions of the physician and patient do not relieve > you of ethical responsibility. Ethics are embedded in medicine. > Without ethics, one can rationalize any action. You still hold the > responsibility of choosing to treat or not to treat this patient. > > > On Jun 22, 2006, at 8:34 PM, Lea Starck wrote: > > > Hi, > > I agree with the scope of practice issue, and luckily in Australia > > relatively safe medical options are available regardless of mine or > > anyones personal ethics. (I say luckily because I am aware of what > > happened to womens health in this country in the past when backyard > > procedures were the norm. The Royal Women's hospital of Melbourne had > > an entire ward devoted to botched home abortion cases, and deaths were > > common.) > > Mefipristone has just been approved for use as an abortifacient in > > Australia, and if a patient came to me and said she had been > > prescribed > > this drug, then given some of the research that has been listed in > > this > > discussion, I would feel able to give her AP and / or herbal treatment > > to potentiate an abortion of this nature. In this situation I feel > > that > > the ethical and legal issues have already been dealt with by a western > > medical doctor and the patient. > > Lea. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2006 Report Share Posted June 25, 2006 I wouldn't take on such a patient from the beginning (i.e. a new patient or 'walk in'). If they were an on-going patient, I would say I don't do such treatment, which I don't. I would treat anyone post- abortion for recovery work. On Jun 23, 2006, at 6:47 PM, Lea Starck wrote: > So, Z'ev, are you saying that if a patient had taken Mefipristone, > as prescribed by a Doctor for the purposes of an abortion, and came > to you for TCM treatment, you would feel like you were an > abortionist if you then needled LI4 and Sp6? You would turn them > away if they hadnt actually started to bleed yet? Or would you wait > until after they had stopped bleeding? Or maybe not see them at all? > Regards, > Lea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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