Guest guest Posted September 2, 2007 Report Share Posted September 2, 2007 , " rebeccajill23 " <rebeccajill23 wrote: > > Hello all, > > Does anyone have experience treating early stage Lyme disease herbally? There is a nice section on Lyme disease in the Blue Poppy book " Treatment of Modern Western Medical Diseases with . " If you don't already have a copy, definitely pick one up. It's one of the best new titles out there, and it will be useful far beyond Lyme disease. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2007 Report Share Posted September 3, 2007 hey Rebecca, Matthew Wood, an herbalist I have studied with who integrates TCM, Western, Ayurvedic, and Homeopathic/Vitalist traditions, uses Teasel Root/Xu Duan/Dipsacus to resolve any stage Lyme disease. His book in which he discusses Teasel is The Book of Herbal Wisdom. here is his site - http://www.matthewwoodherbs.com/ and his book - http://www.matthewwoodherbs.com/Wisdom.html I have used Teasel root tincture with some success in unconfirmed Lyme type complaints/Wind Bi Syndromes, including as an " assistant " to ABX treatment (I would probably start the remedy after ABX). I have used it both as a simple tincture and as a chief ingredient in TCM formulas, depending on the case. Of course the differential DX would be paramount to TCM treatment to devise the appropriate formula, but with the actions of Xu Duan kept in mind Mr. Wood's grounds for this herb as a single ingredient remedy are sound. Depending on your location (I am in Appalachia, and have started to " go native " , herbally speaking) teasel is ready for harvest in the late summer (NOW) - dig up the first year roots (it is a biennial) and tincture in alcohol. Though not strictly TCM, the simple gives good results, even in the small doses specified by Mr. Wood (3-5 drops (NOT dropperfuls) 3x/day). Another Western herb to consider is Boneset/Eupatorium perfoliatum, especially for Shao Yang type alternating fever & chills. According to Matthew and his students, if it tastes good to you you need it! Apply following identical dosage guidelines as above. Good luck! Sheila Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2007 Report Share Posted September 3, 2007 The problem is if the disease is unconfirmed -- the cure is also unconfirmed. Diagnosing lyme disease is not easy symptomatically. Further, I've heard of such 'cures' extendng over months so that by the time the patient is or is not over their original complaint it is difficult to substantiate any cause and effect relationship with the remedy. So respectfully, I'd appreciate if you would exercise a little more rigour in your reporting cases. Also the term " some success " is also suspect or at least should be quantified. Michael Tierra On Behalf Of sile_na_gig Monday, September 03, 2007 8:13 AM Re: Lyme disease hey Rebecca, Matthew Wood, an herbalist I have studied with who integrates TCM, Western, Ayurvedic, and Homeopathic/Vitalist traditions, uses Teasel Root/Xu Duan/Dipsacus to resolve any stage Lyme disease. His book in which he discusses Teasel is The Book of Herbal Wisdom. here is his site - http://www.matthewwoodherbs.com/ <http://www.matthewwoodherbs.com/> and his book - http://www.matthewwoodherbs.com/Wisdom.html <http://www.matthewwoodherbs.com/Wisdom.html> I have used Teasel root tincture with some success in unconfirmed Lyme type complaints/Wind Bi Syndromes, including as an " assistant " to ABX treatment (I would probably start the remedy after ABX). I have used it both as a simple tincture and as a chief ingredient in TCM formulas, depending on the case. Of course the differential DX would be paramount to TCM treatment to devise the appropriate formula, but with the actions of Xu Duan kept in mind Mr. Wood's grounds for this herb as a single ingredient remedy are sound. Depending on your location (I am in Appalachia, and have started to " go native " , herbally speaking) teasel is ready for harvest in the late summer (NOW) - dig up the first year roots (it is a biennial) and tincture in alcohol. Though not strictly TCM, the simple gives good results, even in the small doses specified by Mr. Wood (3-5 drops (NOT dropperfuls) 3x/day). Another Western herb to consider is Boneset/Eupatorium perfoliatum, especially for Shao Yang type alternating fever & chills. According to Matthew and his students, if it tastes good to you you need it! Apply following identical dosage guidelines as above. Good luck! Sheila _____ << ella for Spam Control >> has removed 2180 Spam messages and set aside 1390 Newsletters for me You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2007 Report Share Posted September 4, 2007 Dr. Tierra, Thank you for your response. >The problem is if the disease is unconfirmed -- the cure is also unconfirmed. I agree that definitive diagnosis of Lyme disease is complex and not reliably done simply from the symptom picture. Additionally, the potential for the devastation of health is so thorough that therapeutic techniques that hold promise must be adequately investigated. I believe current allopathic diagnostic standards require supporting serological and objective evidence. According to this standard, so far I have had only two clients with biomedically confirmed Lyme. One has pursued allopathic treatment and his suffering is great, the other has applied various holistic therapies, including Dr. Klinghardt's protocols, is doing well (is asymptomatic for Lyme), comes for occasional acupuncture and we do not currently include herbs in treatment. >So respectfully, I'd appreciate if you would exercise a little more rigour in your reporting cases. >Also the term " some success " is also suspect or at least should be quantified. Point taken. Thank you for making it respectfully. To quantify, in my clinic, with a few clients (3 or 4 not counting those described above) exhibiting " lyme-type " symptomology and a history of tick exposure, teasel/xu duan had been included in an eclectic approach which also included nutritional, dietary, and lifestyle suggestions and acupuncture/moxibustion treatment. Results were positive in all cases, though I could not mathematically quantify that for you (I do not choose to rely on numerical scale or other " objective " measurements of my clients' subjective experience). All would have fallen under a Wind Bi diagnosis, though with idiosyncratic variability (don't have the files in front of me). Obviously we cannot conclude that teasel root was the " cure " . A question, asked respectfully, regards TCM modality, isn't this where the " treat what you see " principle is most applicable? When the application of the Eight Principles, etc. kicks in to get me to the correct treatment strategy? I hope you accurately perceive my reluctance to " go out on a limb " with a full on recommendation of Mr. Wood's therapeutic directions exactly because I have not documented my clinical experience. As I find myself with a very small, beginning practice I am not currently in a position to do definitive scientific research (controlled variables, large cohorts, etc.), but look to you and my other colleagues here and in the " Western " herbal community to support my education in what has become an increasingly eclectic approach. I very much appreciate when scholar-clinicians such as yourself are able to " cross pollinate " the various principles of herbal traditions in a cohesive and reproducible manner, and I recognize the work involved. I welcome the continual evolution of these various holistic therapies, and pin much of my hope for it on discourses like this. > I've heard of such 'cures' extendng over months so that by the time the patient is or is not over their original complaint it is difficult to substantiate any cause and effect relationship with the remedy. Could/would you be willing to elucidate? Do you suspect that " apparent " improvement or change is somehow disguising underlying progression of the disease? Do you see this as unique to Lyme? Regarding the tests of " time " and " cause and effect " , these are problems inherent in any clinical practice which fails to control all variables in our clients lives…I see clearly how my experience is NOT occurring in a laboratory setting. This can make for erosion of confidence as a practitioner, or I can engage all my senses (and those of my clients') to try to perceive the ineffable quality that genuine healing manifests. As to the issue of diagnosis by lab tests, my limited experience has led me do wonder if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, could it indeed be a duck? An example might be the many clients I encounter with thyroid test results WNL, but lives ruined by the misery of apparent " hypothyroidism " . In practice I try to dismiss the " isms " and " itises " , study up on biomedicine, seek out folks legitimately bridging modalities, and focus on what I " know for sure " according to the guiding principles of the holistic therapies I apply. Some clients feel better, some don't. Some have their symptoms resolve, some don't. My current limits extend to applying these therapies I learn about with an " educated guess " , allowing results to inform future treatment, and intending to do no harm while clearly indicating to my clients that we are engaging in an " experiment of one " . I (humbly) hope that this is enough for now. Sheila Guarnagia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2007 Report Share Posted September 4, 2007 Most people are less successful than then they claim. I know Mathew Wood very well and respect him as an herbalist but he's definitely a 'maverick' among herbalists and as I've said to him, I have problems with his free use of the word " cure " in the description of his results. One only " cures " named diseases but for the most part as clinicians we are left with patients with a variety of symptoms which we can ameliorate or resolve. In fact most Western diseases are a collection of symptoms. To claim a " cure " for Lyme's disease based on the timeliness of treatment, if in fact it may be neither Lyme's disease nor a " cure " for it can be dangerous. People who have been diagnosed should waste no time and immediately undergo antibiotic treatment ASAP unless for some reason this is not possible. So I'm actually a little upset with this discussion and Mathew's claim because it may actually delay what would be effective treatment in favor of a prolonged course of 3 to 5 drops of teasel root a day. As to Mathew's or any other claims of " cures " I requote Bob Flaws when he says, " My experience after 30 years in this field is that people are generally less successful than they say they are in public. All too often, one or two cases are used to make general statements of success. I see this all the time on the CHA website. Don't forget that everyone gets 40% placebo effect. Add to that another 30% amelioration rate (not cure rate) and one is at 70%, and one can maintain a successful practice for years and years with only a 70-80% amelioration rate. My point here is that, although your questions are valid ones, no one in N. America can actually answer those questions because of a lack of adequate outcomes parameters and controls for weeding out extraneous factors. Because our patient populations are so small statistically, because of our intent to treat, because of our patients' self-selection, and because of our using a combination of modalities to treat, I do not believe that any N. American answers to these sorts of questions can carry much real weight. " On Behalf Of sile_na_gig Tuesday, September 04, 2007 9:15 AM Re: Lyme disease Dr. Tierra, Thank you for your response. >The problem is if the disease is unconfirmed -- the cure is also unconfirmed. I agree that definitive diagnosis of Lyme disease is complex and not reliably done simply from the symptom picture. Additionally, the potential for the devastation of health is so thorough that therapeutic techniques that hold promise must be adequately investigated. I believe current allopathic diagnostic standards require supporting serological and objective evidence. According to this standard, so far I have had only two clients with biomedically confirmed Lyme. One has pursued allopathic treatment and his suffering is great, the other has applied various holistic therapies, including Dr. Klinghardt's protocols, is doing well (is asymptomatic for Lyme), comes for occasional acupuncture and we do not currently include herbs in treatment. >So respectfully, I'd appreciate if you would exercise a little more rigour in your reporting cases. >Also the term " some success " is also suspect or at least should be quantified. Point taken. Thank you for making it respectfully. To quantify, in my clinic, with a few clients (3 or 4 not counting those described above) exhibiting " lyme-type " symptomology and a history of tick exposure, teasel/xu duan had been included in an eclectic approach which also included nutritional, dietary, and lifestyle suggestions and acupuncture/moxibustion treatment. Results were positive in all cases, though I could not mathematically quantify that for you (I do not choose to rely on numerical scale or other " objective " measurements of my clients' subjective experience). All would have fallen under a Wind Bi diagnosis, though with idiosyncratic variability (don't have the files in front of me). Obviously we cannot conclude that teasel root was the " cure " . A question, asked respectfully, regards TCM modality, isn't this where the " treat what you see " principle is most applicable? When the application of the Eight Principles, etc. kicks in to get me to the correct treatment strategy? I hope you accurately perceive my reluctance to " go out on a limb " with a full on recommendation of Mr. Wood's therapeutic directions exactly because I have not documented my clinical experience. As I find myself with a very small, beginning practice I am not currently in a position to do definitive scientific research (controlled variables, large cohorts, etc.), but look to you and my other colleagues here and in the " Western " herbal community to support my education in what has become an increasingly eclectic approach. I very much appreciate when scholar-clinicians such as yourself are able to " cross pollinate " the various principles of herbal traditions in a cohesive and reproducible manner, and I recognize the work involved. I welcome the continual evolution of these various holistic therapies, and pin much of my hope for it on discourses like this. > I've heard of such 'cures' extendng over months so that by the time the patient is or is not over their original complaint it is difficult to substantiate any cause and effect relationship with the remedy. Could/would you be willing to elucidate? Do you suspect that " apparent " improvement or change is somehow disguising underlying progression of the disease? Do you see this as unique to Lyme? Regarding the tests of " time " and " cause and effect " , these are problems inherent in any clinical practice which fails to control all variables in our clients lives…I see clearly how my experience is NOT occurring in a laboratory setting. This can make for erosion of confidence as a practitioner, or I can engage all my senses (and those of my clients') to try to perceive the ineffable quality that genuine healing manifests. As to the issue of diagnosis by lab tests, my limited experience has led me do wonder if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, could it indeed be a duck? An example might be the many clients I encounter with thyroid test results WNL, but lives ruined by the misery of apparent " hypothyroidism " . In practice I try to dismiss the " isms " and " itises " , study up on biomedicine, seek out folks legitimately bridging modalities, and focus on what I " know for sure " according to the guiding principles of the holistic therapies I apply. Some clients feel better, some don't. Some have their symptoms resolve, some don't. My current limits extend to applying these therapies I learn about with an " educated guess " , allowing results to inform future treatment, and intending to do no harm while clearly indicating to my clients that we are engaging in an " experiment of one " . I (humbly) hope that this is enough for now. Sheila Guarnagia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2007 Report Share Posted September 5, 2007 Bravo Michael, this topic needs to be brought into the light of day again and again. Too many patients are mislead as well as too many practitioners are misleading themselves by not being objective and not understanding what they are treating - Michael Tierra Tuesday, September 04, 2007 2:58 PM RE: Re: Lyme disease Most people are less successful than then they claim. I know Mathew Wood very well and respect him as an herbalist but he's definitely a 'maverick' among herbalists and as I've said to him, I have problems with his free use of the word " cure " in the description of his results. One only " cures " named diseases but for the most part as clinicians we are left with patients with a variety of symptoms which we can ameliorate or resolve. In fact most Western diseases are a collection of symptoms. To claim a " cure " for Lyme's disease based on the timeliness of treatment, if in fact it may be neither Lyme's disease nor a " cure " for it can be dangerous. People who have been diagnosed should waste no time and immediately undergo antibiotic treatment ASAP unless for some reason this is not possible. So I'm actually a little upset with this discussion and Mathew's claim because it may actually delay what would be effective treatment in favor of a prolonged course of 3 to 5 drops of teasel root a day. As to Mathew's or any other claims of " cures " I requote Bob Flaws when he says, " My experience after 30 years in this field is that people are generally less successful than they say they are in public. All too often, one or two cases are used to make general statements of success. I see this all the time on the CHA website. Don't forget that everyone gets 40% placebo effect. Add to that another 30% amelioration rate (not cure rate) and one is at 70%, and one can maintain a successful practice for years and years with only a 70-80% amelioration rate. My point here is that, although your questions are valid ones, no one in N. America can actually answer those questions because of a lack of adequate outcomes parameters and controls for weeding out extraneous factors. Because our patient populations are so small statistically, because of our intent to treat, because of our patients' self-selection, and because of our using a combination of modalities to treat, I do not believe that any N. American answers to these sorts of questions can carry much real weight. " On Behalf Of sile_na_gig Tuesday, September 04, 2007 9:15 AM Re: Lyme disease Dr. Tierra, Thank you for your response. >The problem is if the disease is unconfirmed -- the cure is also unconfirmed. I agree that definitive diagnosis of Lyme disease is complex and not reliably done simply from the symptom picture. Additionally, the potential for the devastation of health is so thorough that therapeutic techniques that hold promise must be adequately investigated. I believe current allopathic diagnostic standards require supporting serological and objective evidence. According to this standard, so far I have had only two clients with biomedically confirmed Lyme. One has pursued allopathic treatment and his suffering is great, the other has applied various holistic therapies, including Dr. Klinghardt's protocols, is doing well (is asymptomatic for Lyme), comes for occasional acupuncture and we do not currently include herbs in treatment. >So respectfully, I'd appreciate if you would exercise a little more rigour in your reporting cases. >Also the term " some success " is also suspect or at least should be quantified. Point taken. Thank you for making it respectfully. To quantify, in my clinic, with a few clients (3 or 4 not counting those described above) exhibiting " lyme-type " symptomology and a history of tick exposure, teasel/xu duan had been included in an eclectic approach which also included nutritional, dietary, and lifestyle suggestions and acupuncture/moxibustion treatment. Results were positive in all cases, though I could not mathematically quantify that for you (I do not choose to rely on numerical scale or other " objective " measurements of my clients' subjective experience). All would have fallen under a Wind Bi diagnosis, though with idiosyncratic variability (don't have the files in front of me). Obviously we cannot conclude that teasel root was the " cure " . A question, asked respectfully, regards TCM modality, isn't this where the " treat what you see " principle is most applicable? When the application of the Eight Principles, etc. kicks in to get me to the correct treatment strategy? I hope you accurately perceive my reluctance to " go out on a limb " with a full on recommendation of Mr. Wood's therapeutic directions exactly because I have not documented my clinical experience. As I find myself with a very small, beginning practice I am not currently in a position to do definitive scientific research (controlled variables, large cohorts, etc.), but look to you and my other colleagues here and in the " Western " herbal community to support my education in what has become an increasingly eclectic approach. I very much appreciate when scholar-clinicians such as yourself are able to " cross pollinate " the various principles of herbal traditions in a cohesive and reproducible manner, and I recognize the work involved. I welcome the continual evolution of these various holistic therapies, and pin much of my hope for it on discourses like this. > I've heard of such 'cures' extendng over months so that by the time the patient is or is not over their original complaint it is difficult to substantiate any cause and effect relationship with the remedy. Could/would you be willing to elucidate? Do you suspect that " apparent " improvement or change is somehow disguising underlying progression of the disease? Do you see this as unique to Lyme? Regarding the tests of " time " and " cause and effect " , these are problems inherent in any clinical practice which fails to control all variables in our clients lives.I see clearly how my experience is NOT occurring in a laboratory setting. This can make for erosion of confidence as a practitioner, or I can engage all my senses (and those of my clients') to try to perceive the ineffable quality that genuine healing manifests. As to the issue of diagnosis by lab tests, my limited experience has led me do wonder if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, could it indeed be a duck? An example might be the many clients I encounter with thyroid test results WNL, but lives ruined by the misery of apparent " hypothyroidism " . In practice I try to dismiss the " isms " and " itises " , study up on biomedicine, seek out folks legitimately bridging modalities, and focus on what I " know for sure " according to the guiding principles of the holistic therapies I apply. Some clients feel better, some don't. Some have their symptoms resolve, some don't. My current limits extend to applying these therapies I learn about with an " educated guess " , allowing results to inform future treatment, and intending to do no harm while clearly indicating to my clients that we are engaging in an " experiment of one " . I (humbly) hope that this is enough for now. Sheila Guarnagia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 I think there is a big problem with declaring an herb to be " the Lyme Disease herb. " I live in a city surrounded by Lyme disease complex, a term I prefer as it is a group of infections rather than Borrellosis alone. (Ticks are reservoirs of disease and few of the coinfections can be cultured.) My treatment protocols include a rotating series of herbal formulas, since Lyme adapts, heating the body, essential oils topically over areas of concentration and insisting that newly exposed patients take antibiotics for about a 6 week period. Xu duan is one of the herbs in my repertoire, but hardly the only one and unlike Matthew Wood, who practices homeopathically (albeit with tinctures instead of succussed homeopathic remedies), I recommend material doses. In early stage Lyme, I use SHL formulas as a basis, with additional herbs. Yin fire is often a problem in later stage Lyme. (I will be teaching a course on Lyme Disease in New York City in the coming months.) -- Karen Vaughan, MSTOM Licensed Acupuncturist, and Herbalist 253 Garfield Place Brooklyn, NY 11215 (718) 622-6755 Co-Conspirator to Make the World A Better Place: Visit http://www.heroicstories.com/ and join the conspiracy See my Acupuncture and Herbalism website at:http://www.byregion.net/profiles/ksvaughan2.html " When you are in doubt, be still, and wait. When doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage. So long as mists envelop you, be still. Be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists -- as it surely will. Then act with courage " White Eagle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2008 Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 I look at Lymes disease as an autoimmune issue. I do not think that the 4 Koch's Postulates were ever all met to even proove that Borrelia causes Lymes Disease........when it is injected, Lyme's does not develop. I advise Astragalus for my patients in the New England area, this potent wei qi booster helps the immune system stay primed. I do see that when an individual has significant cell mediated immunity depression, vaccination causes this, low Cd cell counts and then it is easier for " Lyme's to express " . Talking to groups in the New England area, certainly subsequent flare ups induced by stress are worse then the episode previous in cases where " lymes " was blamed for the dis ease. The more immunosupressed the patient, the moreimmunocompromised or immune dysregulated, the more cases of " lymes " get tagged.- Allopathically, the doxycyclines are used and they are also a fairly significant anti-inflamatory and anti platelet....acts like a blood stasis breaker. Using blood movers would be indicated and anti inflamatory herbs and qi boosters.Sincerely,Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology : heylaurag: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 05:07:18 +0000Lyme Disease Hi, Anyone have experience and ideas to share about treating Lyme disease? Thanks, Laura _______________ Stay organized with simple drag and drop from Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_102008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2008 Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 I treated a young woman with Lyme Disease in the student clinic. I only saw her once or twice, but it was very interesting. She had received many treatments from an acupuncturist in her hometown so she really knew what worked. For her it was a ton of needles on a-shi points on her back. Also, absolutely no massage or rubbing the points, it made the pain much worse. She got good relief from acupuncture and was using a variety of herbal pills given to her by the practitioner in her hometown. She also used some external herbs to help relieve pain. She was only 18 years old, but was so impressed by TCM that she had already decided to enter the field. That would be a big change to the schools and to the field to start getting younger students. Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Chinese Medicine , Patricia Jordan Hi, Thanks for replying and sorry I haven't responded sooner--have been pretty distracted. I'm curious how you might approach this patient. She is 3 months into a protocol with taking 2 years of antibiotics plus supplements from her naturopath. She has felt miserable and very irritable the entire time and has been told that it is because of the die off process. I wonder if the supplements are not protecting her yin and therefore her liver qi isn't flowing smoothly due to yin deficiency. She herself has said, " I don't even know if I believe in Lyme disease " . I am reluctant to add something like Huang qi because I find that if someone is taking supplements that damage the yin a qi tonic will only add to their irritability and depression. I would really like to do the 4 Gates to soothe her liver, but that would not be in support of building her immune system. She has pretty severe hypochondriac pain though--so something needs to be done about her liver. Its interesting that you say that antibiotics move the blood. I always have terrible insomnia when I've had no choice but to take antibiotics. I wonder if that is from the blood being depleted by the movement? Thanks for any thoughts, Laura <coastalcatclinic wrote: > > > I look at Lymes disease as an autoimmune issue. I do not think that the 4 Koch's Postulates were ever all met to even proove that Borrelia causes Lymes Disease........when it is injected, Lyme's does not develop. I advise Astragalus for my patients in the New England area, this potent wei qi booster helps the immune system stay primed. I do see that when an individual has significant cell mediated immunity depression, vaccination causes this, low Cd cell counts and then it is easier for " Lyme's to express " . Talking to groups in the New England area, certainly subsequent flare ups induced by stress are worse then the episode previous in cases where " lymes " was blamed for the dis ease. The more immunosupressed the patient, the moreimmunocompromised or immune dysregulated, the more cases of " lymes " get tagged.- > Allopathically, the doxycyclines are used and they are also a fairly significant anti-inflamatory and anti platelet....acts like a blood stasis breaker. Using blood movers would be indicated and anti inflamatory herbs and qi boosters.Sincerely,Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology > > > > : heylaurag: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 05:07:18 +0000Lyme Disease > > > > > Hi, Anyone have experience and ideas to share about treating Lyme disease? Thanks, Laura > > > > > > _______________ > Stay organized with simple drag and drop from Windows Live Hotmail. > http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail? ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_102008 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 By the way, she is also having whole head headaches since starting treatment with antibiotics and supplements from her naturopath, which point to her being pretty depleted. Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > Chinese Medicine , Patricia Jordan > > > Hi, Thanks for replying and sorry I haven't responded sooner--have > been pretty distracted. I'm curious how you might approach this > patient. She is 3 months into a protocol with taking 2 years of > antibiotics plus supplements from her naturopath. She has felt > miserable and very irritable the entire time and has been told that > it is because of the die off process. I wonder if the supplements > are not protecting her yin and therefore her liver qi isn't flowing > smoothly due to yin deficiency. She herself has said, " I don't even > know if I believe in Lyme disease " . I am reluctant to add something > like Huang qi because I find that if someone is taking supplements > that damage the yin a qi tonic will only add to their irritability > and depression. I would really like to do the 4 Gates to soothe her > liver, but that would not be in support of building her immune > system. She has pretty severe hypochondriac pain though--so > something needs to be done about her liver. > > Its interesting that you say that antibiotics move the blood. I > always have terrible insomnia when I've had no choice but to take > antibiotics. I wonder if that is from the blood being depleted by > the movement? > > Thanks for any thoughts, > > Laura > > > > > > <coastalcatclinic@> wrote: > > > > > > I look at Lymes disease as an autoimmune issue. I do not think that > the 4 Koch's Postulates were ever all met to even proove that > Borrelia causes Lymes Disease........when it is injected, Lyme's does > not develop. I advise Astragalus for my patients in the New England > area, this potent wei qi booster helps the immune system stay primed. > I do see that when an individual has significant cell mediated > immunity depression, vaccination causes this, low Cd cell counts and > then it is easier for " Lyme's to express " . Talking to groups in the > New England area, certainly subsequent flare ups induced by stress > are worse then the episode previous in cases where " lymes " was blamed > for the dis ease. The more immunosupressed the patient, the > moreimmunocompromised or immune dysregulated, the more cases > of " lymes " get tagged.- > > Allopathically, the doxycyclines are used and they are also a > fairly significant anti-inflamatory and anti platelet....acts like a > blood stasis breaker. Using blood movers would be indicated and anti > inflamatory herbs and qi boosters.Sincerely,Patricia Jordan > DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology > > > > > > > > @: heylaurag@: Fri, 17 Oct > 2008 05:07:18 +0000Lyme Disease > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Anyone have experience and ideas to share about treating Lyme > disease? Thanks, Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > > Stay organized with simple drag and drop from Windows Live Hotmail. > > http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail? > ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_102008 > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Lyme disease IS an infection. Its a bad one. Antibiotics plus a vigorous needling/ cupping will help. But give it time. --- On Tue, 10/21/08, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: heylaurag <heylaurag Re: Lyme Disease Chinese Medicine Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 7:59 PM By the way, she is also having whole head headaches since starting treatment with antibiotics and supplements from her naturopath, which point to her being pretty depleted. Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@. ..> wrote: > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Patricia Jordan > > > Hi, Thanks for replying and sorry I haven't responded sooner--have > been pretty distracted. I'm curious how you might approach this > patient. She is 3 months into a protocol with taking 2 years of > antibiotics plus supplements from her naturopath. She has felt > miserable and very irritable the entire time and has been told that > it is because of the die off process. I wonder if the supplements > are not protecting her yin and therefore her liver qi isn't flowing > smoothly due to yin deficiency. She herself has said, " I don't even > know if I believe in Lyme disease " . I am reluctant to add something > like Huang qi because I find that if someone is taking supplements > that damage the yin a qi tonic will only add to their irritability > and depression. I would really like to do the 4 Gates to soothe her > liver, but that would not be in support of building her immune > system. She has pretty severe hypochondriac pain though--so > something needs to be done about her liver. > > Its interesting that you say that antibiotics move the blood. I > always have terrible insomnia when I've had no choice but to take > antibiotics. I wonder if that is from the blood being depleted by > the movement? > > Thanks for any thoughts, > > Laura > > > > > > <coastalcatclinic@ > wrote: > > > > > > I look at Lymes disease as an autoimmune issue. I do not think that > the 4 Koch's Postulates were ever all met to even proove that > Borrelia causes Lymes Disease..... ...when it is injected, Lyme's does > not develop. I advise Astragalus for my patients in the New England > area, this potent wei qi booster helps the immune system stay primed. > I do see that when an individual has significant cell mediated > immunity depression, vaccination causes this, low Cd cell counts and > then it is easier for " Lyme's to express " . Talking to groups in the > New England area, certainly subsequent flare ups induced by stress > are worse then the episode previous in cases where " lymes " was blamed > for the dis ease. The more immunosupressed the patient, the > moreimmunocompromis ed or immune dysregulated, the more cases > of " lymes " get tagged.- > > Allopathically, the doxycyclines are used and they are also a > fairly significant anti-inflamatory and anti platelet.... acts like a > blood stasis breaker. Using blood movers would be indicated and anti > inflamatory herbs and qi boosters.Sincerely, Patricia Jordan > DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology > > > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @: heylaurag@: Fri, 17 Oct > 2008 05:07:18 +0000Lyme Disease > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Anyone have experience and ideas to share about treating Lyme > disease? Thanks, Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > Stay organized with simple drag and drop from Windows Live Hotmail. > > http://windowslive. com/Explore/ hotmail? > ocid=TXT_TAGLM_ WL_hotmail_ 102008 > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 I've treated it and I know David Cohen has had experience with it also. Doug , K Cowan <kirstencowan wrote: > > Does anyone have recommendations for someone in the los angeles area with expertise in treating lyme disease? Thanks! > > Kirsten > > > ------- > > The Force is what gives a Jedi [her] power. It¢s an energy field created > by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the > galaxy together. > -- Obi-Wan Kenobi > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Chinese Medicine , mystir Can you tell me more about your experience with this? Have you seen people with Lyme who caught it decades in the past at an unknown time? Have you seen the treatment protocol work? <ykcul_ritsym wrote: > > Lyme disease IS an infection. Its a bad one. Antibiotics plus a vigorous needling/ cupping will help. But give it time. > > --- On Tue, 10/21/08, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: > heylaurag <heylaurag > Re: Lyme Disease > Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 7:59 PM > > > > > By the way, she is also having whole head headaches since starting > > treatment with antibiotics and supplements from her naturopath, which > > point to her being pretty depleted. > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " heylaurag " > > <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Patricia > > Jordan > > > > > > > > > Hi, Thanks for replying and sorry I haven't responded sooner-- have > > > been pretty distracted. I'm curious how you might approach this > > > patient. She is 3 months into a protocol with taking 2 years of > > > antibiotics plus supplements from her naturopath. She has felt > > > miserable and very irritable the entire time and has been told that > > > it is because of the die off process. I wonder if the supplements > > > are not protecting her yin and therefore her liver qi isn't flowing > > > smoothly due to yin deficiency. She herself has said, " I don't > > even > > > know if I believe in Lyme disease " . I am reluctant to add > > something > > > like Huang qi because I find that if someone is taking supplements > > > that damage the yin a qi tonic will only add to their irritability > > > and depression. I would really like to do the 4 Gates to soothe > > her > > > liver, but that would not be in support of building her immune > > > system. She has pretty severe hypochondriac pain though--so > > > something needs to be done about her liver. > > > > > > Its interesting that you say that antibiotics move the blood. I > > > always have terrible insomnia when I've had no choice but to take > > > antibiotics. I wonder if that is from the blood being depleted by > > > the movement? > > > > > > Thanks for any thoughts, > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <coastalcatclinic@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I look at Lymes disease as an autoimmune issue. I do not think > > that > > > the 4 Koch's Postulates were ever all met to even proove that > > > Borrelia causes Lymes Disease..... ...when it is injected, Lyme's > > does > > > not develop. I advise Astragalus for my patients in the New England > > > area, this potent wei qi booster helps the immune system stay > > primed. > > > I do see that when an individual has significant cell mediated > > > immunity depression, vaccination causes this, low Cd cell counts > > and > > > then it is easier for " Lyme's to express " . Talking to groups in the > > > New England area, certainly subsequent flare ups induced by stress > > > are worse then the episode previous in cases where " lymes " was > > blamed > > > for the dis ease. The more immunosupressed the patient, the > > > moreimmunocompromis ed or immune dysregulated, the more cases > > > of " lymes " get tagged.- > > > > Allopathically, the doxycyclines are used and they are also a > > > fairly significant anti-inflamatory and anti platelet.... acts like > > a > > > blood stasis breaker. Using blood movers would be indicated and > > anti > > > inflamatory herbs and qi boosters.Sincerely, Patricia Jordan > > > DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @: heylaurag@: Fri, 17 Oct > > > 2008 05:07:18 +0000Lyme Disease > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Anyone have experience and ideas to share about treating Lyme > > > disease? Thanks, Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > > > Stay organized with simple drag and drop from Windows Live > > Hotmail. > > > > http://windowslive. com/Explore/ hotmail? > > > ocid=TXT_TAGLM_ WL_hotmail_ 102008 > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > Anyone have experience with someone on the antibiotic/supplement protocol from contracting Lyme at an unknown time in the distant past? I'm really wanting feedback because she is so miserable on the antibiotics/supplements that I'd like to be able to know whether to encourage her that it is worth it or not. I'd like to soothe her liver but don't want to sacrifice building her immune function. Chinese Medicine , mystir > > Can you tell me more about your experience with this? Have you seen > people with Lyme who caught it decades in the past at an unknown > time? Have you seen the treatment protocol work? > > > > > <ykcul_ritsym@> wrote: > > > > Lyme disease IS an infection. Its a bad one. Antibiotics plus a > vigorous needling/ cupping will help. But give it time. > > > > --- On Tue, 10/21/08, heylaurag <heylaurag@> wrote: > > heylaurag <heylaurag@> > > Re: Lyme Disease > > Chinese Medicine > > Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 7:59 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By the way, she is also having whole head headaches > since starting > > > > treatment with antibiotics and supplements from her naturopath, > which > > > > point to her being pretty depleted. > > > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @. com, " heylaurag " > > > > <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Patricia > > > > Jordan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Thanks for replying and sorry I haven't responded sooner-- > have > > > > > been pretty distracted. I'm curious how you might approach this > > > > > patient. She is 3 months into a protocol with taking 2 years of > > > > > antibiotics plus supplements from her naturopath. She has felt > > > > > miserable and very irritable the entire time and has been told > that > > > > > it is because of the die off process. I wonder if the > supplements > > > > > are not protecting her yin and therefore her liver qi isn't > flowing > > > > > smoothly due to yin deficiency. She herself has said, " I don't > > > > even > > > > > know if I believe in Lyme disease " . I am reluctant to add > > > > something > > > > > like Huang qi because I find that if someone is taking > supplements > > > > > that damage the yin a qi tonic will only add to their > irritability > > > > > and depression. I would really like to do the 4 Gates to soothe > > > > her > > > > > liver, but that would not be in support of building her immune > > > > > system. She has pretty severe hypochondriac pain though--so > > > > > something needs to be done about her liver. > > > > > > > > > > Its interesting that you say that antibiotics move the blood. I > > > > > always have terrible insomnia when I've had no choice but to take > > > > > antibiotics. I wonder if that is from the blood being depleted > by > > > > > the movement? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for any thoughts, > > > > > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <coastalcatclinic@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I look at Lymes disease as an autoimmune issue. I do not think > > > > that > > > > > the 4 Koch's Postulates were ever all met to even proove that > > > > > Borrelia causes Lymes Disease..... ...when it is injected, Lyme's > > > > does > > > > > not develop. I advise Astragalus for my patients in the New > England > > > > > area, this potent wei qi booster helps the immune system stay > > > > primed. > > > > > I do see that when an individual has significant cell mediated > > > > > immunity depression, vaccination causes this, low Cd cell counts > > > > and > > > > > then it is easier for " Lyme's to express " . Talking to groups in > the > > > > > New England area, certainly subsequent flare ups induced by > stress > > > > > are worse then the episode previous in cases where " lymes " was > > > > blamed > > > > > for the dis ease. The more immunosupressed the patient, the > > > > > moreimmunocompromis ed or immune dysregulated, the more cases > > > > > of " lymes " get tagged.- > > > > > > Allopathically, the doxycyclines are used and they are also a > > > > > fairly significant anti-inflamatory and anti platelet.... acts > like > > > > a > > > > > blood stasis breaker. Using blood movers would be indicated and > > > > anti > > > > > inflamatory herbs and qi boosters.Sincerely, Patricia Jordan > > > > > DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @: heylaurag@: Fri, 17 Oct > > > > > 2008 05:07:18 +0000Lyme Disease > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Anyone have experience and ideas to share about treating > Lyme > > > > > disease? Thanks, Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > > > > > Stay organized with simple drag and drop from Windows Live > > > > Hotmail. > > > > > > http://windowslive. com/Explore/ hotmail? > > > > > ocid=TXT_TAGLM_ WL_hotmail_ 102008 > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 My understanding is that the medical tests for Lyme are pretty reliable now; if she tested positive I think it's irrelevant if she remembers getting infected or not and how long ago. I currently have I client who is certain she was not infected but she has tested positive. If she has indeed Lyme, she can consider alternative, meaning non-antibiotic treatments, but I would send her to see a naturopath who has experience with it. I don't know if the alternative treatments are as reliable as the standard ones. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - heylaurag Chinese Medicine Thursday, October 23, 2008 3:52 PM Re: Lyme Disease Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > Anyone have experience with someone on the antibiotic/supplement protocol from contracting Lyme at an unknown time in the distant past? I'm really wanting feedback because she is so miserable on the antibiotics/supplements that I'd like to be able to know whether to encourage her that it is worth it or not. I'd like to soothe her liver but don't want to sacrifice building her immune function. Chinese Medicine , mystir > > Can you tell me more about your experience with this? Have you seen > people with Lyme who caught it decades in the past at an unknown > time? Have you seen the treatment protocol work? > > > > > <ykcul_ritsym@> wrote: > > > > Lyme disease IS an infection. Its a bad one. Antibiotics plus a > vigorous needling/ cupping will help. But give it time. > > > > --- On Tue, 10/21/08, heylaurag <heylaurag@> wrote: > > heylaurag <heylaurag@> > > Re: Lyme Disease > > Chinese Medicine > > Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 7:59 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By the way, she is also having whole head headaches > since starting > > > > treatment with antibiotics and supplements from her naturopath, > which > > > > point to her being pretty depleted. > > > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @. com, " heylaurag " > > > > <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Patricia > > > > Jordan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Thanks for replying and sorry I haven't responded sooner-- > have > > > > > been pretty distracted. I'm curious how you might approach this > > > > > patient. She is 3 months into a protocol with taking 2 years of > > > > > antibiotics plus supplements from her naturopath. She has felt > > > > > miserable and very irritable the entire time and has been told > that > > > > > it is because of the die off process. I wonder if the > supplements > > > > > are not protecting her yin and therefore her liver qi isn't > flowing > > > > > smoothly due to yin deficiency. She herself has said, " I don't > > > > even > > > > > know if I believe in Lyme disease " . I am reluctant to add > > > > something > > > > > like Huang qi because I find that if someone is taking > supplements > > > > > that damage the yin a qi tonic will only add to their > irritability > > > > > and depression. I would really like to do the 4 Gates to soothe > > > > her > > > > > liver, but that would not be in support of building her immune > > > > > system. She has pretty severe hypochondriac pain though--so > > > > > something needs to be done about her liver. > > > > > > > > > > Its interesting that you say that antibiotics move the blood. I > > > > > always have terrible insomnia when I've had no choice but to take > > > > > antibiotics. I wonder if that is from the blood being depleted > by > > > > > the movement? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for any thoughts, > > > > > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <coastalcatclinic@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I look at Lymes disease as an autoimmune issue. I do not think > > > > that > > > > > the 4 Koch's Postulates were ever all met to even proove that > > > > > Borrelia causes Lymes Disease..... ...when it is injected, Lyme's > > > > does > > > > > not develop. I advise Astragalus for my patients in the New > England > > > > > area, this potent wei qi booster helps the immune system stay > > > > primed. > > > > > I do see that when an individual has significant cell mediated > > > > > immunity depression, vaccination causes this, low Cd cell counts > > > > and > > > > > then it is easier for " Lyme's to express " . Talking to groups in > the > > > > > New England area, certainly subsequent flare ups induced by > stress > > > > > are worse then the episode previous in cases where " lymes " was > > > > blamed > > > > > for the dis ease. The more immunosupressed the patient, the > > > > > moreimmunocompromis ed or immune dysregulated, the more cases > > > > > of " lymes " get tagged.- > > > > > > Allopathically, the doxycyclines are used and they are also a > > > > > fairly significant anti-inflamatory and anti platelet.... acts > like > > > > a > > > > > blood stasis breaker. Using blood movers would be indicated and > > > > anti > > > > > inflamatory herbs and qi boosters.Sincerely, Patricia Jordan > > > > > DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @: heylaurag@: Fri, 17 Oct > > > > > 2008 05:07:18 +0000Lyme Disease > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Anyone have experience and ideas to share about treating > Lyme > > > > > disease? Thanks, Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > > > > > Stay organized with simple drag and drop from Windows Live > > > > Hotmail. > > > > > > http://windowslive. com/Explore/ hotmail? > > > > > ocid=TXT_TAGLM_ WL_hotmail_ 102008 > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 Inyour very extensive study of Lymes Disease, did you come across the cementing requirements of all four of kock's postulates being met to even define Borrelia as the cause of Lyme's disease? If so, could you please supply this required postulate proof?Sincerely,Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology : ldesrosiers: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 15:54:25 -0700Lyme disease Lyme disease is a very serious infection caused by a strong bacteria called spirochetes. Early diagnosis and treatment are very effective - but if not treated right away the spirochettes are highly adaptable and can become non-responsive to antibiotic therapy. They especially like to live in the collagenous areas of the body such as joints, brain, spinal cord.Steven Buhner in 'Healing Lyme: Natual Healing and Prevention of Lyme Borrelliosis and Its Coinfection " outlines fantastically the cause of Lyme, how the spirochete functions in the body, and a 4 pronged approach to herbal treatment that includes 1)killing the spirochete, 2) immune modulation and support 3)collagenous tissue support and 4)symptomatic support.The other issue with Lyme is that often there are undiagnosed co-infections as a result of the tick bite which can be viral in nature and thus not responsive to antibiotics either.I was diagnosed with a very early case of Lyme this summer and treated successfully with a course of antibiotics. I did extensive research on the subject at the time and was amazed by what I discovered. It seems this is a very misunderstood disease at the moment. There are less mainstream types of treatment out there that intend to kill the spirochette via vibrational healing. A vibration is introduced to the body that literally destroys the spirochettes. Some people use Rife machines and others called a Meridian Health Assessment. A colleague of mine has had very good results receiving vibrational treatment for her advanced Lyme.I tend to think of acupuncture use in Lyme disease as supportive for the system, to combat fatigue, boost the immune system, etc but not to directly kill the bacteria causing the Lyme. I do think well-researched herbal treatment could be very effective. I'm curious what other practitioners have discovered while researching or treating Lyme...Lisa Desrosiers[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ Stay organized with simple drag and drop from Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_102008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Hi, I just recently started seeing a patient who has been diagnosed with Lyme. She does not know when she contracted it--probably as a child, so a long time ago. She has been on antibiotics and supplements from her naturopath for a few months. She feels awful--itchy all over and very irritable. I would welcome any thoughts on how I can be most helpful. I have heard of giving Xiao Chai Hu Tang plus Tu Fu Ling. Also, I would really like to do something to soothe the irritability--perhaps the Chai Hu in the formula would help. Thanks for any thoughts, Laura , " " wrote: > > I've treated it and I know David Cohen has had experience with it also. > Doug > > > , K Cowan <kirstencowan@> > wrote: > > > > Does anyone have recommendations for someone in the los angeles area > with expertise in treating lyme disease? Thanks! > > > > Kirsten > > > > > > ------- > > > > The Force is what gives a Jedi [her] power. It¢s an energy field created > > by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the > > galaxy together. > > -- Obi-Wan Kenobi > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Hi Lisa, Thank you for sharing your experience with lyme disease and the detailed protocol by western medicine. I find it amazing that they have quite a few ways to eliminate its effect, besides medication. It is valuable to me as I treasure every first hand clinical experience. If will be more helpful if you tell us what symptoms you had. Tick bite is so common in rural villages in China that is regarded as an ordinary dermotological condition. In most cases, we mainly observe red spots(erythema migrans). I can assure you that it can be easily to be treated with external wash medicinals. Internal herbal medicine can eliminate various accompanied symptoms, regardless if it is viral or bacteria-infected (Chinese medicine terminology does not use pathogen as etiology). As the problem should be taken care at the initial stage, neurological symptoms that i found by google searching are never be seen, or may not be detected. SUNG, Yuk-ming, PhD, L Ac & Chinese medicine practitioner (HK) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 As always, you should treat the pattern. I recently had great success with my first lyme disease patient using lian po yin. -Steve Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. C.H. http://www.health-traditions.com sbonzak 773-470-6994 On Oct 25, 2008, at 6:01 PM, heylaurag wrote: > > Hi, I just recently started seeing a patient who has been diagnosed > with Lyme. She does not know when she contracted it--probably as a > child, so a long time ago. She has been on antibiotics and > supplements from her naturopath for a few months. She feels > awful--itchy all over and very irritable. I would welcome any > thoughts on how I can be most helpful. I have heard of giving Xiao > Chai Hu Tang plus Tu Fu Ling. Also, I would really like to do > something to soothe the irritability--perhaps the Chai Hu in the > formula would help. > > Thanks for any thoughts, > > Laura > > , " " > wrote: > > > > I've treated it and I know David Cohen has had experience with it > also. > > Doug > > > > > > , K Cowan <kirstencowan@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone have recommendations for someone in the los angeles > area > > with expertise in treating lyme disease? Thanks! > > > > > > Kirsten > > > > > > > > > ------- > > > > > > The Force is what gives a Jedi [her] power. It¢s an energy field > created > > > by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It > binds the > > > galaxy together. > > > -- Obi-Wan Kenobi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 First I would be careful about the actual western diagnosis of chronic lyme disease which is controversal. Besides treating the TCM pattern you see obviously, there are a couple of herbs which are used for spirochete infection see http://www.itmonline.org/arts/lyme.htm Expect a herksheimer reaction if the patient actually is infected and you start killing off the bug so make sure she knows that things might get worse before they get better and she needs to stick with treatment. Good luck and let us know how it goes. Rich Blitstein , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > > Hi, I just recently started seeing a patient who has been diagnosed > with Lyme. She does not know when she contracted it--probably as a > child, so a long time ago. She has been on antibiotics and > supplements from her naturopath for a few months. She feels > awful--itchy all over and very irritable. I would welcome any > thoughts on how I can be most helpful. I have heard of giving Xiao > Chai Hu Tang plus Tu Fu Ling. Also, I would really like to do > something to soothe the irritability--perhaps the Chai Hu in the > formula would help. > > Thanks for any thoughts, > > Laura > > > > , " " > <taiqi@> wrote: > > > > I've treated it and I know David Cohen has had experience with it also. > > Doug > > > > > > , K Cowan <kirstencowan@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone have recommendations for someone in the los angeles area > > with expertise in treating lyme disease? Thanks! > > > > > > Kirsten > > > > > > > > > ------- > > > > > > The Force is what gives a Jedi [her] power. It¢s an energy field > created > > > by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the > > > galaxy together. > > > -- Obi-Wan Kenobi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Hi Anne, I treat Lyme disease. Usually my patients come after long course on antibiotics and still having pain and aches or they have been sent to psychiatrist because MDs tell the patients that the pain is in the head. Those patients have negative blood test results. Su He tang works well. Only in raw or powder form. I've tried available Su He Tang in capsules with many patients, they do not work as well as cooked/powdered herbs . Treatment takes a long time. However, you still need to treat patient's symptoms (joint aches, headaches, emotional issues, GI problems...). You may give additional herbal formulas, homeopatics, supplements. Moxa for joints... I had Lyme myself with practically the same presentation. I was taken additionally to powdered SuHetangJiaJian Glucosamine Chondroitine (liquid) and moxa. Fresh free zed garlic is good if you are not giving homeopatic remedies. Hope that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 I Have used samento (an extract from Cat's Claw) with success. has some good research behind it too Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Thank you for responding. This is my first patient with Lyme disease in all the years I have been practicing. I was treating him according to TCM patterns but didn't have any other insight. If you don't mind I have a couple of questions, - Have you found in your clinical experience that Lyme disease is underdiagnosed? The patient's mother told me that the doctor denied that it was Lyme disease. I was surprised as it has some obvious signs - site of rash etc... It wasn't until 6 weeks later that he finally acknowledged it. However, perhaps doctors still don't know what to look for. It made me think quite a bit about my other cases of unexplained joint pain that comes and goes. - Is it really true what they say that the sooner one gets the antibiotics the sooner the recovery? Again the patient's mother is hard on herself in saying that she should have gotten treatment sooner. She has been following a strict homeopathic regimen and so far much improvement from two years ago. The joint weakness and occasional flareups still remain. Thank you for the herb suggestions. I am going to try that next. Anne Biris On Apr 29, 2009, at 5:25 PM, tgaid1 wrote: > > > Hi Anne, > I treat Lyme disease. Usually my patients come after long course on > antibiotics and still having pain and aches or they have been sent > to psychiatrist because MDs tell the patients that the pain is in > the head. Those patients have negative blood test results. > Su He tang works well. Only in raw or powder form. I've tried > available Su He Tang in capsules with many patients, they do not > work as well as cooked/powdered herbs . Treatment takes a long time. > However, you still need to treat patient's symptoms (joint aches, > headaches, emotional issues, GI problems...). You may give > additional herbal formulas, homeopatics, supplements. Moxa for > joints... > I had Lyme myself with practically the same presentation. I was > taken additionally to powdered SuHetangJiaJian Glucosamine > Chondroitine (liquid) and moxa. > Fresh free zed garlic is good if you are not giving homeopatic > remedies. > > Hope that helps. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Do you have a reliable source for this? On Apr 30, 2009, at 4:45 AM, leebutler300 wrote: > > > I Have used samento (an extract from Cat's Claw) with success. has > some good research behind it too > Lee > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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