Guest guest Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Caitlin, From the Chinese medical perspective, I think that acupuncture/ moxabustion regulate the channel/viscera systems, so your first point would seem to be correct. However, 'sedation' is not what acupuncture does, it is a wrong translation of " xie', which is more accurately translated as draining or shunting. On the second question, there is nothing in biomedical studies to support the point of view of this teacher that 'acupuncture shouldn't be used in any patient with an autoimmune disease " . There are many different autoimmune diseases with different etiologies and treatments, and one cannot generalize in this fashion. It will depend on the stage, complexity and development of a specific disease, how one treats. I've treated patients with autoimmune diseases for many years now, so it is quite disturbing to hear of teachers making such sweeping statements without any backup in either Chinese or Western medical sources. I'd rather hear about teachers giving courses on how to manage autoimmune disorders. It is a very important topic. On Jan 29, 2008, at 2:46 PM, caitdonovan wrote: > I know this may turn into a hot topic, but I am anxious to see the > discussion unravel, the bad and the good. > > I have heard a couple different ideas about acupuncture treatments > and autoimmune disease. > > 1. - Acupuncture balances the body as a whole. If the body is > hyperstimulated, acupuncture can sedate whatever system we are > working on or if the body hypostimulated, acupuncture will tonify and > increase whatever system it is working on. > > This is supported by the studies of ST36 that showed when the > stomach was overacting, ST36 slowed it down and when the stomach was > too slow, ST36 sped it up. fair enough. > > 2. - Acupuncture increases the activity of the immune system and > therefore should not be used in any tonifying manner where an > autoimmune disease is involved. > > This was a theory by one of my teachers and has greatly disturbed me > ever since I heard it. > > This brings on another question, should western diagnosis matter to > us? If the whole idea behind our medicine is to observe, ask, > listen, and palpate before arriving at a TCM (or five element, or > whatever) diagnosis and treatment plan, do western medicine diagnoses > harm our practice? Do they make us change our treatment plans? > > I know these are two big questions but I feel both are important. > > I look forward to the replies, > > Caitlin Donovan > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Caitlin I have only 30 or so years practice with , so what I know is limited, but growing every day. I have come across cases nearly every day which cause me to pause and admire the breadth, depth and simplicity of TCM. It works. It helps. And it has rules to follow. However, one salient rule is " you can do more harm with bad intentions than with bad technique " . " How's your Shen today? " I ask myself that often! I have had fabulous results with patients who have had Rheumatoid and many other autoimmune diseases over the years. The NIH library is repleat with studies of TCM effectiveness in this regard. When you research the methods you will find a great variety. This is, I think, because of " whole person " treatment concepts in TCM and the " switch " like nature of acupoints. I have found over the years (and this may offend some purists) that it matters very little how one stimulates an acupoint to achieve a positive healing effect, but does matter a great deal how the nature of the person and the disease coexist in the mind/spirit of the practitioner. AND how all this relates to the zangfu organs, channels, points and systems of TCM. Sham studies have proven that treating just any old point has very few negative effects and a few positive effects. Acupoints have specific and predictible effects. Knowing which to use to get what effect is as important as how one spins or doesn't spin a needle. Forgive me if this is a long winded way to say " your concerns are misguided " . " Get in there and figure things out and then treat people. " I may be misguided, but this is just my opinion. May wellness come to all who read this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Caitlin, From my points of view, auto-immune disease must be classified into smaller sections. I see it in 2 views: 1st, auto-immune disease which is chronic is an internal pathogenic factors - mostly deficiency " Sp_lymph, He_thyroids_ GSH , and Kid_ DNA " 2nd, auto-immune disease may be the cause of drug used, foods,toxins, chemicals, environment -water, foods, drugs - from external , excess. This excess may harm the Liver_detoxifying power, and Ki_the elimination process. But the funny statements that if acupuncture can only sedate or only tonify sounds hilarious. To me , Acupuncture is a form of treatment based on the movement of Qi. If we are not injecting anything in the body, how can we tonify an organ or a system ? My answer is one : the freedom of movement of certain Qi in certain channels allows nutrients, blood, body fluids, chemicals, essences flow into those, thereby, I call that the tonification or strengthening... But the method of activating Qi that may cause and inducing of a certain pathogenic factors " excess " out by meridians, or through skin, or orifices, or a method of diluting " dissolving " certain chemicals then excreting them, I call it a sedating method. There are certain factors such as chemicals or free radicals are harmful to our nerves, arteries, channels, organs ... Acupuncture job is to make sure to eliminate those junks " blockages " and promoting a free flow of energy, I call that antioxidant, inhibing certain chemicals substances from being oxidized. Certain cells attack our bodies, they are very aggressive. We must work with them and lead them out, not destroying them for they are so powerful. At the same time, our immune system is deficient either from environment, chemicals , foods , or from emotions , we must correct it by method of Acupuncture and herbs or foods or any supplements... Summary : Acupuncture can be tonified and sedated at any time, depends on circumstance. Any more comments , please add... Nam Nguyen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Zev, I would love to see a course in managing autoimmune diseases too! Chinese Medicine , <zrosenbe wrote: > > Caitlin, > From the Chinese medical perspective, I think that acupuncture/ > moxabustion regulate the channel/viscera systems, so your first point > would seem to be correct. However, 'sedation' is not what acupuncture > does, it is a wrong translation of " xie', which is more accurately > translated as draining or shunting. > > On the second question, there is nothing in biomedical studies to > support the point of view of this teacher that 'acupuncture shouldn't > be used in any patient with an autoimmune disease " . There are many > different autoimmune diseases with different etiologies and > treatments, and one cannot generalize in this fashion. It will depend > on the stage, complexity and development of a specific disease, how > one treats. > > I've treated patients with autoimmune diseases for many years now, > so it is quite disturbing to hear of teachers making such sweeping > statements without any backup in either Chinese or Western medical > sources. I'd rather hear about teachers giving courses on how to > manage autoimmune disorders. It is a very important topic. > > > On Jan 29, 2008, at 2:46 PM, caitdonovan wrote: > > > I know this may turn into a hot topic, but I am anxious to see the > > discussion unravel, the bad and the good. > > > > I have heard a couple different ideas about acupuncture treatments > > and autoimmune disease. > > > > 1. - Acupuncture balances the body as a whole. If the body is > > hyperstimulated, acupuncture can sedate whatever system we are > > working on or if the body hypostimulated, acupuncture will tonify and > > increase whatever system it is working on. > > > > This is supported by the studies of ST36 that showed when the > > stomach was overacting, ST36 slowed it down and when the stomach was > > too slow, ST36 sped it up. fair enough. > > > > 2. - Acupuncture increases the activity of the immune system and > > therefore should not be used in any tonifying manner where an > > autoimmune disease is involved. > > > > This was a theory by one of my teachers and has greatly disturbed me > > ever since I heard it. > > > > This brings on another question, should western diagnosis matter to > > us? If the whole idea behind our medicine is to observe, ask, > > listen, and palpate before arriving at a TCM (or five element, or > > whatever) diagnosis and treatment plan, do western medicine diagnoses > > harm our practice? Do they make us change our treatment plans? > > > > I know these are two big questions but I feel both are important. > > > > I look forward to the replies, > > > > Caitlin Donovan > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 William, This is the answer I was looking for As a recent graduate, it is often difficult to believe in the simply beauty of the medicine. Though I have seen acupuncture work and went through the training and bills that came with it to get licensed, sometimes my level of confidence in applying the tools that I have gained is not the highest. You are the second or third person I have had repeat that the method of stimulation does not seem to make much difference. The first person I heard this from is someone I very much respect and admire, so hearing the words again helps them sink in a bit deeper. I meditate before and during every treatment. I have the luxury of only needing to book one patient at a time, so I have the opportunity to practice in this way. My hopes are that I learn to trust my knowledge and be true during my treatments. This is the growth of a practitioner. This is my stumbling block. I accept it with pride and gratitude, for it reminds me of my location in my journey. A long journey starts with the first step..... and I´m off! Chinese Medicine , " William Morse, D.C., FIACA " <dokkabill wrote: > > Caitlin > > I have only 30 or so years practice with , so what I > know is limited, but growing every day. I have come across cases > nearly every day which cause me to pause and admire the breadth, depth > and simplicity of TCM. It works. It helps. And it has rules to > follow. However, one salient rule is " you can do more harm with bad > intentions than with bad technique " . " How's your Shen today? " I ask > myself that often! > > I have had fabulous results with patients who have had Rheumatoid and > many other autoimmune diseases over the years. The NIH library is > repleat with studies of TCM effectiveness in this regard. When you > research the methods you will find a great variety. This is, I think, > because of " whole person " treatment concepts in TCM and the " switch " > like nature of acupoints. > > I have found over the years (and this may offend some purists) that it > matters very little how one stimulates an acupoint to achieve a > positive healing effect, but does matter a great deal how the nature of > the person and the disease coexist in the mind/spirit of the > practitioner. AND how all this relates to the zangfu organs, channels, > points and systems of TCM. > > Sham studies have proven that treating just any old point has very few > negative effects and a few positive effects. Acupoints have specific > and predictible effects. Knowing which to use to get what effect is as > important as how one spins or doesn't spin a needle. > > Forgive me if this is a long winded way to say " your concerns are > misguided " . " Get in there and figure things out and then treat > people. " > > > I may be misguided, but this is just my opinion. May wellness come to > all who read this. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 We see the majority of autoimmune disease in the companion animal population brought on by the vaccination process. As a matter of fact, the study done at Perdue by Glickman, proved only the vaccinated animals generated autoantibodies! The non vaccinated did not. I also would love a course in the use of TCM to treat autoimmune diseases and one on the use of TCM to treat cancer, our two biggest health problems in both animals, people and pets.Sincerely,Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology : dokkabill: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 02:20:19 +0000Re: Autoimmune CaitlinI have only 30 or so years practice with , so what I know is limited, but growing every day. I have come across cases nearly every day which cause me to pause and admire the breadth, depth and simplicity of TCM. It works. It helps. And it has rules to follow. However, one salient rule is " you can do more harm with bad intentions than with bad technique " . " How's your Shen today? " I ask myself that often!I have had fabulous results with patients who have had Rheumatoid and many other autoimmune diseases over the years. The NIH library is repleat with studies of TCM effectiveness in this regard. When you research the methods you will find a great variety. This is, I think, because of " whole person " treatment concepts in TCM and the " switch " like nature of acupoints. I have found over the years (and this may offend some purists) that it matters very little how one stimulates an acupoint to achieve a positive healing effect, but does matter a great deal how the nature of the person and the disease coexist in the mind/spirit of the practitioner. AND how all this relates to the zangfu organs, channels, points and systems of TCM.Sham studies have proven that treating just any old point has very few negative effects and a few positive effects. Acupoints have specific and predictible effects. Knowing which to use to get what effect is as important as how one spins or doesn't spin a needle.Forgive me if this is a long winded way to say " your concerns are misguided " . " Get in there and figure things out and then treat people. " I may be misguided, but this is just my opinion. May wellness come to all who read this. _______________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Yes, the topic of autoimmune diseases and TCM is dear to me for I am a practitioner and a patient. I have had no success with Western medicine and actually none with TCM, yet - I still have much to learn. But these disorders are complicated and on top of that many of the patients are taking some strong medications that will mask your diagnosis (especially prednisone). Some patients have 'classic' autoimmune problems where it is obvious that their own immune system is attacking their own tissues. Others are more along the lines of environmental sensitivities and/or chronic hidden infections. Either way a excess and deficient pattern often shows. I was taught to drain excess before working on the deficiency but I wonder with autoimmune diseases. It seems the immune system could use some help. Also, remember there is a balance in the immune system - some aspects ramp it up to fight and others calm it down when it needs too. So a lot of these 'immune stimulating' ideas help because they help the calming part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Brian, With complex disorders, one needs much of the time to concurrently supplement and drain, because most autoimmune disorders, especially in later stages are a mixture of repletion and vacuity. A great text to study about the treatment of autoimmune disorders is the Bob Flaws translation of " Treatise on the Spleen and Stomach " by Li Dongyuan. It is the supreme classical text on treatment of complex pattern disorders, and includes both herbal medicine and acupuncture. With medications, I agree it is difficult to treat patients on prednisone and other strong drugs, but one can factor them into your diagnosis and treatment plan. The exception is with organ transplants or strong immunosuppressive drugs, where extreme caution must be exhibited. On Jan 30, 2008, at 6:51 AM, Brian Harasha wrote: > Yes, the topic of autoimmune diseases and TCM is dear to me for I am a > practitioner and a patient. I have had no success with Western > medicine and > actually none with TCM, yet - I still have much to learn. But these > disorders are complicated and on top of that many of the patients > are taking > some strong medications that will mask your diagnosis (especially > prednisone). Some patients have 'classic' autoimmune problems where > it is > obvious that their own immune system is attacking their own tissues. > Others > are more along the lines of environmental sensitivities and/or chronic > hidden infections. Either way a excess and deficient pattern often > shows. > I was taught to drain excess before working on the deficiency but I > wonder > with autoimmune diseases. It seems the immune system could use some > help. > Also, remember there is a balance in the immune system - some > aspects ramp > it up to fight and others calm it down when it needs too. So a lot of > these 'immune stimulating' ideas help because they help the calming > part. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Brian, What we have learned the concept of draining the excess is true, but that is just an idea. I think we have to make our own judgment. This is how it makes us grow. In autoimmune disease, our bodies must be deficient already, so there is an excess of pathogenic factor which lying within from deficiency. If we draw a chart of excess and def, I do not think we should drain the excess to balance with the deficiency. Our bodies generate all kinds of diseases or illnesses because in cases they do not meet the demands " Qi " . If our Qi is strong, it can fight and defend our bodies against all invasions or internal disturbance. Our bad cells attack other good cells. I often asked myself why our cells turned bad and attacked others. I think of environment, foods, chemicals, emotions, lifestyles... Like us, in some days we may turn into bad guys and attack only weak guys first " immmune " . If we can boost the weak guys, how dare the bad guys would attack the stronger guys than they? Our immune system first must be boosted to combat with all others, not only bad guys.If they are strong and intelligent enough, they can eliminate them through our orifices. Why MD uses prednisones or some corticosteroids , or cortisols to help our bodies in autoimmune disease and with some severe allery??? Those chemicals can be secreted from our adrenal glands, especially Adrenal cortex " Ki Yang " . If our Ki Yang cannot produce corticosteroids regularly - with all supplements, we might think about our Mingmen Fire " source of life, source of DNA, source of growth, source of all changes... " YANG open and secretes !!! if there is a good storage. I have treated MS ( multiple sclerosis ), and Lupus successfully with Kid Yang and Mingmen fire, but that was just a few cases. I need more help more people to get involved to clarify our Ki Yang and Mingmen fire. I hope this will give us some keys, so we can have a starting point. Please feel free to add inputs. Nam Nguyen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Chinese Medicine , Patricia Jordan <coastalcatclinic wrote: > > > We see the majority of autoimmune disease in the companion animal population brought on by the vaccination > process. As a matter of fact, the study done at Perdue by Glickman, proved only the vaccinated animals generated autoantibodies! The non vaccinated did not. Patricia, That's fascinating! Can you post a link to the article? - Bill Schoenbart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 I respectfully beg to differ that the method of application has little effect on the outcome of the treatment. I have been in private practice for nine years, and i know that this is merely a short time, i find numerous times that, after inserting a needle, that pain will get better or worse depending on supplementation or draining of a specific point, and, if pain gets worse with a point that should change the pain, then the opposite technique will relieve the pain. I use pain as an example because one can get an immediate change that the patient is able to report. Also, I agree that the intention of the practitioner is as important, if not more important, than the technique used, but, this again, is a technique that we are using: intent. Have you ever tried " burning the mountain " on a cold person, or " cooling heaven " on a hot person? These techniques certainly will warm and cool your patient as long as the point chosen is appropriate to the heat or cold. Just my two cents. Douglas Knapp Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac. Full Moon Acupuncture 1600 York Avenue New York, NY 10028 212-734-1459 caitdonovan <caitdonovan Chinese Medicine Wednesday, January 30, 2008 2:33:27 AM Re: Autoimmune William, This is the answer I was looking for As a recent graduate, it is often difficult to believe in the simply beauty of the medicine. Though I have seen acupuncture work and went through the training and bills that came with it to get licensed, sometimes my level of confidence in applying the tools that I have gained is not the highest. You are the second or third person I have had repeat that the method of stimulation does not seem to make much difference. The first person I heard this from is someone I very much respect and admire, so hearing the words again helps them sink in a bit deeper. I meditate before and during every treatment. I have the luxury of only needing to book one patient at a time, so I have the opportunity to practice in this way. My hopes are that I learn to trust my knowledge and be true during my treatments. This is the growth of a practitioner. This is my stumbling block. I accept it with pride and gratitude, for it reminds me of my location in my journey. A long journey starts with the first step..... and I´m off! Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " William Morse, D.C., FIACA " <dokkabill@. ..> wrote: > > Caitlin > > I have only 30 or so years practice with , so what I > know is limited, but growing every day. I have come across cases > nearly every day which cause me to pause and admire the breadth, depth > and simplicity of TCM. It works. It helps. And it has rules to > follow. However, one salient rule is " you can do more harm with bad > intentions than with bad technique " . " How's your Shen today? " I ask > myself that often! > > I have had fabulous results with patients who have had Rheumatoid and > many other autoimmune diseases over the years. The NIH library is > repleat with studies of TCM effectiveness in this regard. When you > research the methods you will find a great variety. This is, I think, > because of " whole person " treatment concepts in TCM and the " switch " > like nature of acupoints. > > I have found over the years (and this may offend some purists) that it > matters very little how one stimulates an acupoint to achieve a > positive healing effect, but does matter a great deal how the nature of > the person and the disease coexist in the mind/spirit of the > practitioner. AND how all this relates to the zangfu organs, channels, > points and systems of TCM. > > Sham studies have proven that treating just any old point has very few > negative effects and a few positive effects. Acupoints have specific > and predictible effects. Knowing which to use to get what effect is as > important as how one spins or doesn't spin a needle. > > Forgive me if this is a long winded way to say " your concerns are > misguided " . " Get in there and figure things out and then treat > people. " > > > I may be misguided, but this is just my opinion. May wellness come to > all who read this. > <!-- #ygrp-mkp{ border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px 0px;padding:0px 14px;} #ygrp-mkp hr{ border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrp-mkp #hd{ color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0px;} #ygrp-mkp #ads{ margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrp-mkp .ad{ padding:0 0;} #ygrp-mkp .ad a{ color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} --> <!-- #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{ font-family:Arial;} #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{ margin:10px 0px;font-weight:bold;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{ margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} --> <!-- #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;} #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;} #ygrp-text{ font-family:Georgia; } #ygrp-text p{ margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrp-tpmsgs{ font-family:Arial; clear:both;} #ygrp-vitnav{ padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;} #ygrp-vitnav a{ padding:0 1px;} #ygrp-actbar{ clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-align:right;} #ygrp-actbar .left{ float:left;white-space:nowrap;} ..bld{font-weight:bold;} #ygrp-grft{ font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;} #ygrp-ft{ font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666; padding:5px 0; } #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{ padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrp-vital{ background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;} #ygrp-vital #vithd{ font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-transform:upp\ ercase;} #ygrp-vital ul{ padding:0;margin:2px 0;} #ygrp-vital ul li{ list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee; } #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{ font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-align:right;padding-ri\ ght:.5em;} #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{ font-weight:bold;} #ygrp-vital a{ text-decoration:none;} #ygrp-vital a:hover{ text-decoration:underline;} #ygrp-sponsor #hd{ color:#999;font-size:77%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov{ padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{ padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{ list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{ text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;} #ygrp-sponsor #nc{ background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad{ padding:8px 0;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{ font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%\ ;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{ text-decoration:none;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{ text-decoration:underline;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{ margin:0;} o{font-size:0;} ..MsoNormal{ margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrp-text tt{ font-size:120%;} blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;} ..replbq{margin:4;} --> ______________________________\ ____ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. 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Guest guest Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 HI Caitlin The sixty-first difficult issue: The scripture states: Anybody who looks and knows is to be called a spirit; anybody who listens and knows is to be called a sage; anybody who asks and knows is to be called an artisan; anybody who feels the vessels and knows is to be called a skilled workman. So, perhaps if we were the " superior doctor " , we would already see the imbalance and treat THAT and not need to know more... personally, I need more information and so, I ask and palpate and listen and look and... The key is to not let my ideas about their biochemical diagnosis steer me astray...which is easier said than done. The disease diagnosis will give me ideas about severity...some diseases are potentially fatal, right? I do also want to know what pharmaceuticals they are taking to avoid drug-herb interactions... warfarin - dang gui interferon - chai hu etc, etc It is not easy, is it? Stephen Woodley LAc > This brings on another question, should western diagnosis matter to > us? If the whole idea behind our medicine is to observe, ask, > listen, and palpate before arriving at a TCM (or five element, or > whatever) diagnosis and treatment plan, do western medicine diagnoses > harm our practice? Do they make us change our treatment plans? > Caitlin Donovan > -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Dear Caitlin (and others): Thank you for your kind response. I honor your process. May it be kind to you. Just for the record, though, I had desired in my note to convey my belief that wisedom, shen and intent are more import than method, which is not to say that method has no value. TCM is a grand testament to method....and shen! I have never read a TCM text which didn't espouse the concept that Shen is the basis of the " Doctor- Patient relationship and " what we do " is the method. Both are necessary (yin and yang - all is complete!). I may pick on " needle twisters " from time to time, but with joy, not malace. Do I twist, open and close, tonify and reduce? You bet I do. I follow the wisedom of many traditions as well as the wisedom of my heart. And people get well. I work every day to learn to do what is best for people. That means learning, growing, adding techniques, refining old ones. Acupoints have effects, Acupuncturists get results. I work always to be cautious of limitations and ignorance. These are what do harm and cause damage (This is also why referrals were invented!). Sometimes too much method and theory get in the way of the nuts and bolts of caring for ill people. If you know your heart, you will do what is right. Seek a mentor and absorb his or her wisedom. It has worked for me. Bill P.S. Thanks for helpin me feel better to be me today! Chinese Medicine , " caitdonovan " <caitdonovan wrote: > > > William, > > This is the answer I was looking for > > As a recent graduate, it is often difficult to believe in the simply > beauty of the medicine. Though I have seen acupuncture work and went > through the training and bills that came with it to get licensed, > sometimes my level of confidence in applying the tools that I have > gained is not the highest. > > You are the second or third person I have had repeat that the method > of stimulation does not seem to make much difference. The first > person I heard this from is someone I very much respect and admire, > so hearing the words again helps them sink in a bit deeper. > > I meditate before and during every treatment. I have the luxury of > only needing to book one patient at a time, so I have the opportunity > to practice in this way. > > My hopes are that I learn to trust my knowledge and be true during my > treatments. This is the growth of a practitioner. This is my > stumbling block. I accept it with pride and gratitude, for it > reminds me of my location in my journey. > > A long journey starts with the first step..... > > and I´m off! > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " William Morse, > D.C., FIACA " <dokkabill@> wrote: > > > > Caitlin > > > > I have only 30 or so years practice with , so what > I > > know is limited, but growing every day. I have come across cases > > nearly every day which cause me to pause and admire the breadth, > depth > > and simplicity of TCM. It works. It helps. And it has rules to > > follow. However, one salient rule is " you can do more harm with > bad > > intentions than with bad technique " . " How's your Shen today? " I > ask > > myself that often! > > > > I have had fabulous results with patients who have had Rheumatoid > and > > many other autoimmune diseases over the years. The NIH library is > > repleat with studies of TCM effectiveness in this regard. When you > > research the methods you will find a great variety. This is, I > think, > > because of " whole person " treatment concepts in TCM and > the " switch " > > like nature of acupoints. > > > > I have found over the years (and this may offend some purists) that > it > > matters very little how one stimulates an acupoint to achieve a > > positive healing effect, but does matter a great deal how the > nature of > > the person and the disease coexist in the mind/spirit of the > > practitioner. AND how all this relates to the zangfu organs, > channels, > > points and systems of TCM. > > > > Sham studies have proven that treating just any old point has very > few > > negative effects and a few positive effects. Acupoints have > specific > > and predictible effects. Knowing which to use to get what effect > is as > > important as how one spins or doesn't spin a needle. > > > > Forgive me if this is a long winded way to say " your concerns are > > misguided " . " Get in there and figure things out and then treat > > people. " > > > > > > I may be misguided, but this is just my opinion. May wellness come > to > > all who read this. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Douglas: I don't believe that the " method of application has little effect on the outcome " of treatment. I didn't mean to imply that. True wisedom comes with knowledge, skill and spirit. All is required. I do know that understanding the patient, the condition which brought them in and then choosing the right point or points to treat is vastly more important than whether one should spin the needles left or right. Treat the person. Acupoints respond to a wide variety of treatment modalities from massage to needles and beyond. They are to a large degree, on/off points. Which is not to say there aren't contraindications and dangers. This is why we study and mentor ourselves and have other practitioners to referr to. I believe I was responding to the potential " analysis paralysis " Caitlin was espousing. It's easy to get caught in the intellectual trap of " do the right thing " as if there's a magic solution in some method or other. The brain is the ruler of the body. The heart is the mother of the soul. There is balance. We learn more every day, however it has been my experience (and apparently yours too) that Chinese Medicine , Douglas Knapp <knappneedleman wrote: > > I respectfully beg to differ that the method of application has little effect on the outcome of the treatment. I have been in private practice for nine years, and i know that this is merely a short time, i find numerous times that, after inserting a needle, that pain will get better or worse depending on supplementation or draining of a specific point, and, if pain gets worse with a point that should change the pain, then the opposite technique will relieve the pain. I use pain as an example because one can get an immediate change that the patient is able to report. > > Also, I agree that the intention of the practitioner is as important, if not more important, than the technique used, but, this again, is a technique that we are using: intent. > > Have you ever tried " burning the mountain " on a cold person, or " cooling heaven " on a hot person? These techniques certainly will warm and cool your patient as long as the point chosen is appropriate to the heat or cold. > > Just my two cents. > > Douglas Knapp > Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac. > Full Moon Acupuncture > 1600 York Avenue > New York, NY 10028 > 212-734-1459 > > > caitdonovan <caitdonovan > Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, January 30, 2008 2:33:27 AM > Re: Autoimmune > > > > > > > > > > William, > > > > This is the answer I was looking for > > > > As a recent graduate, it is often difficult to believe in the simply > > beauty of the medicine. Though I have seen acupuncture work and went > > through the training and bills that came with it to get licensed, > > sometimes my level of confidence in applying the tools that I have > > gained is not the highest. > > > > You are the second or third person I have had repeat that the method > > of stimulation does not seem to make much difference. The first > > person I heard this from is someone I very much respect and admire, > > so hearing the words again helps them sink in a bit deeper. > > > > I meditate before and during every treatment. I have the luxury of > > only needing to book one patient at a time, so I have the opportunity > > to practice in this way. > > > > My hopes are that I learn to trust my knowledge and be true during my > > treatments. This is the growth of a practitioner. This is my > > stumbling block. I accept it with pride and gratitude, for it > > reminds me of my location in my journey. > > > > A long journey starts with the first step..... > > > > and I´m off! > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " William Morse, > > D.C., FIACA " <dokkabill@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > Caitlin > > > > > > I have only 30 or so years practice with , so what > > I > > > know is limited, but growing every day. I have come across cases > > > nearly every day which cause me to pause and admire the breadth, > > depth > > > and simplicity of TCM. It works. It helps. And it has rules to > > > follow. However, one salient rule is " you can do more harm with > > bad > > > intentions than with bad technique " . " How's your Shen today? " I > > ask > > > myself that often! > > > > > > I have had fabulous results with patients who have had Rheumatoid > > and > > > many other autoimmune diseases over the years. The NIH library is > > > repleat with studies of TCM effectiveness in this regard. When you > > > research the methods you will find a great variety. This is, I > > think, > > > because of " whole person " treatment concepts in TCM and > > the " switch " > > > like nature of acupoints. > > > > > > I have found over the years (and this may offend some purists) that > > it > > > matters very little how one stimulates an acupoint to achieve a > > > positive healing effect, but does matter a great deal how the > > nature of > > > the person and the disease coexist in the mind/spirit of the > > > practitioner. AND how all this relates to the zangfu organs, > > channels, > > > points and systems of TCM. > > > > > > Sham studies have proven that treating just any old point has very > > few > > > negative effects and a few positive effects. Acupoints have > > specific > > > and predictible effects. Knowing which to use to get what effect > > is as > > > important as how one spins or doesn't spin a needle. > > > > > > Forgive me if this is a long winded way to say " your concerns are > > > misguided " . " Get in there and figure things out and then treat > > > people. " > > > > > > > > > I may be misguided, but this is just my opinion. May wellness come > > to > > > all who read this. > > > > > > > > > > > <!-- > > #ygrp-mkp{ > border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px 0px;padding:0px 14px;} > #ygrp-mkp hr{ > border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} > #ygrp-mkp #hd{ > color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line- height:122%;margin:10px 0px;} > #ygrp-mkp #ads{ > margin-bottom:10px;} > #ygrp-mkp .ad{ > padding:0 0;} > #ygrp-mkp .ad a{ > color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} > --> > > > > <!-- > > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{ > font-family:Arial;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{ > margin:10px 0px;font-weight:bold;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{ > margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} > --> > > > > <!-- > > #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} > #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;} > #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} > #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;} > #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;} > #ygrp-text{ > font-family:Georgia; > } > #ygrp-text p{ > margin:0 0 1em 0;} > #ygrp-tpmsgs{ > font-family:Arial; > clear:both;} > #ygrp-vitnav{ > padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;} > #ygrp-vitnav a{ > padding:0 1px;} > #ygrp-actbar{ > clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text- align:right;} > #ygrp-actbar .left{ > float:left;white-space:nowrap;} > .bld{font-weight:bold;} > #ygrp-grft{ > font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;} > #ygrp-ft{ > font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666; > padding:5px 0; > } > #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{ > padding-bottom:10px;} > > #ygrp-vital{ > background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;} > #ygrp-vital #vithd{ > font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text- transform:uppercase;} > #ygrp-vital ul{ > padding:0;margin:2px 0;} > #ygrp-vital ul li{ > list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee; > } > #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{ > font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text- align:right;padding-right:.5em;} > #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{ > font-weight:bold;} > #ygrp-vital a{ > text-decoration:none;} > > #ygrp-vital a:hover{ > text-decoration:underline;} > > #ygrp-sponsor #hd{ > color:#999;font-size:77%;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ov{ > padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{ > padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{ > list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{ > text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;} > #ygrp-sponsor #nc{ > background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad{ > padding:8px 0;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{ > font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font- size:100%;line-height:122%;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{ > text-decoration:none;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{ > text-decoration:underline;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{ > margin:0;} > o{font-size:0;} > .MsoNormal{ > margin:0 0 0 0;} > #ygrp-text tt{ > font-size:120%;} > blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;} > .replbq{margin:4;} > --> > > > > > > > > > ____________________ ______________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Mobile. 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Guest guest Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Hi Stephen, I feel similarly. I do not want to start forming TCM diagnoses based on western, but it is important to know. Is there a way to separate a western diagnosis from your thoughts completely while going through a TCM evaluation all the while remembering it to ensure safe treatment for your patient? I am not sure. For instance, if someone walks in with fibroids... (did you just think blood stagnation??) I did, even though I know there is a possibility of other diagnoses... (did you just think damp phlegm??) Funny, huh. I feel that it is difficult to separate these things first of all because I had a western background before starting school and secondly because our teachers shared ideas like this with us throughout school. I do not feel like there is a clear answer, but it is good to know that other people think about these things too Thanks for the chat so far guys, everything has been interesting! Caitlin Chinese Medicine , " stephen woodley " <learntcm wrote: > > > HI Caitlin > > The sixty-first difficult issue: > The scripture states: Anybody who looks and knows is to be called a > spirit; anybody who listens and knows is to be called a sage; anybody > who asks and knows is to be called an artisan; anybody who feels the > vessels and knows is to be called a skilled workman. > > So, perhaps if we were the " superior doctor " , we would already see the > imbalance and treat THAT and not need to know more... > personally, I need more information and so, I ask and palpate and listen > and look and... > > The key is to not let my ideas about their biochemical diagnosis steer > me astray...which is easier said than done. > The disease diagnosis will give me ideas about severity...some diseases > are potentially fatal, right? > I do also want to know what pharmaceuticals they are taking to avoid > drug-herb interactions... > warfarin - dang gui > interferon - chai hu > etc, etc > > It is not easy, is it? > > Stephen Woodley LAc > > This brings on another question, should western diagnosis matter to > > us? If the whole idea behind our medicine is to observe, ask, > > listen, and palpate before arriving at a TCM (or five element, or > > whatever) diagnosis and treatment plan, do western medicine diagnoses > > harm our practice? Do they make us change our treatment plans? > > > Caitlin Donovan > > > > -- > http://www.fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Dear Bill, Seeking a mentor is something that I have been doing since my second year of school. Now, I find myself on the other side of the ocean, speaking a different language and having few, if any, acupuncturists around. That is why this forum is so important to me. It is the only support I have (aside from the friends I attended acupuncture school with). My eyes and ears stay open . . . Caitlin p.s. I love making people feel better about who they are!! glad to be part of the process (that makes me feel better about who I am!) Chinese Medicine , " William Morse, D.C., FIACA " <dokkabill wrote: > > > Dear Caitlin (and others): > > Thank you for your kind response. I honor your process. May it be > kind to you. > > Just for the record, though, I had desired in my note to convey my > belief that wisedom, shen and intent are more import than method, > which is not to say that method has no value. TCM is a grand > testament to method....and shen! I have never read a TCM text which > didn't espouse the concept that Shen is the basis of the " Doctor- > Patient relationship and " what we do " is the method. Both are > necessary (yin and yang - all is complete!). > > I may pick on " needle twisters " from time to time, but with joy, not > malace. Do I twist, open and close, tonify and reduce? You bet I > do. I follow the wisedom of many traditions as well as the wisedom > of my heart. And people get well. I work every day to learn to do > what is best for people. That means learning, growing, adding > techniques, refining old ones. Acupoints have effects, > Acupuncturists get results. > > I work always to be cautious of limitations and ignorance. These are > what do harm and cause damage (This is also why referrals were > invented!). Sometimes too much method and theory get in the way of > the nuts and bolts of caring for ill people. > > If you know your heart, you will do what is right. Seek a mentor and > absorb his or her wisedom. It has worked for me. > > Bill > > P.S. Thanks for helpin me feel better to be me today! > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " caitdonovan " > <caitdonovan@> wrote: > > > > > > William, > > > > This is the answer I was looking for > > > > As a recent graduate, it is often difficult to believe in the > simply > > beauty of the medicine. Though I have seen acupuncture work and > went > > through the training and bills that came with it to get licensed, > > sometimes my level of confidence in applying the tools that I have > > gained is not the highest. > > > > You are the second or third person I have had repeat that the > method > > of stimulation does not seem to make much difference. The first > > person I heard this from is someone I very much respect and admire, > > so hearing the words again helps them sink in a bit deeper. > > > > I meditate before and during every treatment. I have the luxury of > > only needing to book one patient at a time, so I have the > opportunity > > to practice in this way. > > > > My hopes are that I learn to trust my knowledge and be true during > my > > treatments. This is the growth of a practitioner. This is my > > stumbling block. I accept it with pride and gratitude, for it > > reminds me of my location in my journey. > > > > A long journey starts with the first step..... > > > > and I´m off! > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " William > Morse, > > D.C., FIACA " <dokkabill@> wrote: > > > > > > Caitlin > > > > > > I have only 30 or so years practice with , so > what > > I > > > know is limited, but growing every day. I have come across cases > > > nearly every day which cause me to pause and admire the breadth, > > depth > > > and simplicity of TCM. It works. It helps. And it has rules to > > > follow. However, one salient rule is " you can do more harm with > > bad > > > intentions than with bad technique " . " How's your Shen today? " I > > ask > > > myself that often! > > > > > > I have had fabulous results with patients who have had Rheumatoid > > and > > > many other autoimmune diseases over the years. The NIH library > is > > > repleat with studies of TCM effectiveness in this regard. When > you > > > research the methods you will find a great variety. This is, I > > think, > > > because of " whole person " treatment concepts in TCM and > > the " switch " > > > like nature of acupoints. > > > > > > I have found over the years (and this may offend some purists) > that > > it > > > matters very little how one stimulates an acupoint to achieve a > > > positive healing effect, but does matter a great deal how the > > nature of > > > the person and the disease coexist in the mind/spirit of the > > > practitioner. AND how all this relates to the zangfu organs, > > channels, > > > points and systems of TCM. > > > > > > Sham studies have proven that treating just any old point has > very > > few > > > negative effects and a few positive effects. Acupoints have > > specific > > > and predictible effects. Knowing which to use to get what effect > > is as > > > important as how one spins or doesn't spin a needle. > > > > > > Forgive me if this is a long winded way to say " your concerns are > > > misguided " . " Get in there and figure things out and then treat > > > people. " > > > > > > > > > I may be misguided, but this is just my opinion. May wellness > come > > to > > > all who read this. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 The best book out yet, that I've seen, on health and wellness and WHY we're all sick.... The Autoimmune Epidemic by Donna Jackson Nakazawa ANYONE interested in their health...sick or healthy NEEDS to get this book and read it. Be well... ~Amy~ The book gives SOLUTIONS on how to not get an autoimmune disease. GREAT stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Amy, Does the book give any information on what to do if an autoimmune syndrome has already happened and you are trying to find ways to help with recovery? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Tina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 My daughter has a rare autoimmune brain syndrome called Opsoclonus Myoclonus Syndrome with Nastagmus, yes it is a mouthful. It is an orphan disease on the National Registry of Rare Diseases and affects 1 in 10,000,000. Her immune system is attacking her brain and she is on steroids to suppress the immune system to restore her gross and fine motor skills. So any information on the immune system is probably going to be a great read! I am going to check out the other two groups that you " run " to help who knows??? Thanks, Tina Amy Williams [lakotasiouxgrizzly2006] Tuesday, August 12, 2008 5:29 PM Tina Landa Re:Autoimmune Hi Tina, YES YES and YES...please get the book :-) I am personally making GREAT progress towards healing. I also " run " two boards in ..and you are welcome to join them and join in on discussions...we talk about all kinds of things...summer has been slow on both boards but I suspect that fall and winter will bring MORE discussions about health and wellness. The two address are: totalhealth2008 and /theautoimmuneepidemic I'm open for discussions with you at any time. Which autoimmune disease do you have? or which oneS have you been diagnosed with? Be well, ~Amy~ --- On Tue, 8/12/08, Tina Landa <tblanda01 wrote: Tina Landa <tblanda01 Re:Autoimmune lakotasiouxgrizzly2006 Cc: Tuesday, August 12, 2008, 9:17 AM Amy, Does the book give any information on what to do if an autoimmune syndrome has already happened and you are trying to find ways to help with recovery? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Tina __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3096 (20080513) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. <http://www.eset.com/> http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3096 (20080513) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008 Tina, Google " autoimmune + colloidal silver " . There are some anecdotal evidence of a woman being healed of autoimmune disease by taking colloidal silver. If you decide to take colloidal silver for a longer time, supplement with probiotics. Melly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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