Guest guest Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Tim wrote: >I'd also be interested in hearing from those involved in the >administration of TCM schools > as to why they feel most schools don't include an option for medical >Chinese. Assuming > the problem is the addition of extra course-load, what if any parts of >the standard >curriculum could possibly be sacrificed without losing accreditation? At >OCOM we are >required to take at least 2 years of Qigong. In my view, it is far easier >to pick up a qigong >instructor in any large city than it is to gain instruction in medical >Chinese. So why the >Qigong (I'll ask the dean that question on Friday)? As long as schools >have a captive > audience, why not teach the things that students can't get anywhere else? Mandating two years of Qi Gong as part of the curriculum in CM education and ignoring Chinese language studies seems to me completely backward. I'm not suggesting that studying Qi Gong is not of value, but how important is if for the practice of CM? Arguably it's more important for acupuncture (and obviously for Qi Gong healers), but for Zhong1 Yi1 Nei4 Ke1 I say the clear winner is (well,sadly in this case, 'should be') Chinese language. It has been suggested that the " learn Chinese language " camp on this list has not presented a logical argument. Can someone please explain to us the logic behind having Qi Gong over Chinese language? I am open to listening. From my own personal experience having started out learning CM in English with next to no Chinese language ability, to my current situation where I am quite good with Chinese (reading, writing, and speaking), I feel like I can talk about this subject since I've been in both camps. I can't overemphasize the value of knowing Chinese for the practice of Zhong1 Yi1 Nei4 Ke1 (Chinese Internal Medicine). For others, such as Alon (I hope you don't mind me using you as an example here, Alon) who are more involved in orthopedics and such, maybe there is less value there and your time is better spent studying other things. However, even those who are able and willing to dedicate a small amount of time on a daily basis could, with time, be able to benefit greatly from the resources available in Chinese (as well as some possible decrease in confusion and increase in unadultered understanding, of which there is a certain amount in the non-Chinese-literate CM community), regardless of your specialty (unless you're not practicing CM, of course). One other point, in my 2 plus years spent in China, I found my teachers to be far more willing and happy (and ABLE) to teach me because of my Chinese skills (I have found that here in SF as well as I spend time with several old docs that don't speak much if any English). When I first landed in China my Chinese was pathetic. By the time I left it was pretty decent (now it's even better- little by little, and learning gets easier and faster as I progress). The difference in how I was treated was noticeable. I also noticed this when around other foreigners who had either no or limited Chinese ability. I don't say this to offend, but I would say that most Chinese think westerners studying CM are not very serious or capable, and largely that is due to their lack of Chinese language skills. I was (and continue to be) taken much more seriously by my Chinese teachers and given more respect when they noticed how seriously I took the study of the language. I have to say that I feel in a way that it *is* respectful of CM *to* study Chinese, and I think that is where the respect I receive back from Chinese teachers comes from- they feel I have and give proper respect to the medicine. Anyway.... I realize this may not be a logical argument- I did not really intend it to be. I'm just putting my own experiences and feelings out there for people to judge for themselves. Take it or leave it. And happy and fruitful studying to us all, regardless of what we choose to study! Greg Greg A. Livingston, L.Ac. 121-1/2 11th Ave San Francisco, CA 94118 (415) 752-3557 shanren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 , Greg Livingston < shanren@c...> wrote: It has been suggested that the " learn Chinese > language " camp on this list has not presented a logical argument. Can > someone please explain to us the logic behind having Qi Gong over Chinese > language? Greg I completely agree with you. see my last post on this. what is illogical to me is that one can just keep adding more subjects to the 4 year masters and expect people to learn them all. since there is no agreement on this matter, I support the OPTION approach. I also see no evidence that those who study chinese during the master's program are any better at their TCM studies than those who don't. I also do not see it in terms of being better teachers, more financial success or increased clinical efficacy. While it is logical that over time, learning chinese would pay off in greater access to data, I do not see what real benefit it gives to most of us during master's level training. The only folks who insist on the importance of learning chinese are those who already know it. You all assure us that if we just followed suit, we would reap the same rewards you have. Perhaps. But we have more than enough good english language work to keep someone busy for 20 years at this point. I look forward to reading all your translations. Really. Maybe I just read slow, but I doubt I will ever exhaust the resources available to me in english, especially with folks like you pumping out great information over the next few decades. I am positive I would get more benefit from reading a good translation from you than struggling for hours to translate a few paragraphs on my own. I know myself. I can't bear reading plato, but I love to read educated commentary on Plato from many diffferent sides. I weigh the arguments of those with certain skills and credentials and then decide how to proceed. I am not a giant. I stand on the shoulders of giants. you may be a giant. Keep it coming. that will be your gift to the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 I was (and continue to be) taken much more seriously by my Chinese teachers and given more respect when they noticed how seriously I took the study of the language. I have to say that I feel in a way that it *is* respectful of CM *to* study Chinese, and I think that is where the respect I receive back from Chinese teachers comes from- they feel I have and give proper respect to the medicine. Anyway >>>These are good points and if one is going to spend much time in China knowing Chinese is of GREAT help, I know from experience. And probably the best argument for studying Chinese.I was very lucky to have a great full time translator when I was in china, and one that I became very close to so that he communicated to me a lot of what was under the surface besides the medicine. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Really. Maybe I just read slow, but I doubt I will ever exhaust the resources available to me in english, especially with folks like you pumping out great information over the next few decades >>>That is my point. I am still trying to get good example how knowing something in character is better than knowing the translated (multiple) meaning of the charecter Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 There is too much to read on any subject, but when one needs to research a specific issue then it becomes paramount. But of course if one is treating PMS with irregular menses, well you are right, there is probably enough in English... But I would like to see our profession start to treat REAL `STUFF'- and have confidence in what we do. Not just say `let's treat the pattern'>>>If not yet available I am sure it will be soon, is translation and research on order. Pay 20$ and get more info than you need Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 > > I completely agree with you. see my last post on this. what is illogical to me is > that one can just keep adding more subjects to the 4 year masters and expect > people to learn them all. since there is no agreement on this matter, I support > the OPTION approach. I also see no evidence that those who study chinese > during the master's program are any better at their TCM studies than those > who don't. [jason] What about after they graduate (let's say 10 years?)? I also do not see it in terms of being better teachers, more financial > success or increased clinical efficacy. While it is logical that over time, > learning Chinese would pay off in greater access to data, I do not see what > real benefit it gives to most of us during master's level training. [jason] It is true that during the Master's level program the study of Chinese WILL NOT make one a better practitioner or have any REAL benefit. BUt that is not the point. IT is to give a foundation that one can build on in the future, after one graduates. These are long-term goals. The only folks > who insist on the importance of learning chinese are those who already know > it. [jason] Of course, they are the one's who see the value... You all assure us that if we just followed suit, we would reap the same > rewards you have. Perhaps. > > But we have more than enough good english language work to keep > someone busy for 20 years at this point. [jason] THis is to me an 'illogical' argument... - Yes there is a building amount of information available in English, but if someone is interested in a specific topic, or non-common disease process, In my experience one's choice of resources are limited. There might be a small chapter somewhere, or an article on the net. This does not constitute IMO, adequate resources to deal with such an issue or real disease. Why do you think that so many times one hears " well just treat the pattern " - IMO, this is because there isn't that much information on the DISEASE, and the person has no where to go. I am uncovering more & more options for REAL disease processes, For example, I just translated 9 pages on cirrhosis of the Liver, yielding 21 patterns and over 35 base Rx's with modifications. To my knowledge this is not available in English. ANd the important thing is that there are patterns with Rx's but each Rx is initially modified with modern understanding of the disease process and modern interpretation of herbs. Therefore these Rx would never come about just from noting the pattern. Let us not forget modern research and discussions. There is too much to read on any subject, but when one needs to research a specific issue then it becomes paramount. But of course if one is treating PMS with irregular menses, well you are right, there is probably enough in English... But I would like to see our profession start to treat REAL `STUFF'- and have confidence in what we do. Not just say `let's treat the pattern' - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 At 07:56 PM 3/3/04, you wrote: >I haven't bought many oils and stuff yet, but I >find myself thinking " What if I don't like it? " that's why I always recommend that folks get samples and experience the oil before ordering it. Your source for superb Essential Oils, Aromatherapy Accessories, Information, Books and more! Visit us at: <http://www.naturesgift.com> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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