Guest guest Posted January 17, 2003 Report Share Posted January 17, 2003 > Thank you for the information... we understand your expressions very well! Keep writing! Douglas > > different understanding of Chinese and English about TCM > > Recently, I have seen many discussion about girdling pulse and many comments about the different understanding of TCM. Here I want to express what I was thinking about them. > > For Girdling Pulse, what I understand is a kind of pulse phenomenon. My teacher told me that there are four kinds of diagnostics in Ancient China, Wang(Íû£©, Wen£¨ÎÅ£©, Wen£¨ÎÊ£©, Qie£¨Ç?£©. And Qie is to Qie the patient's pulse, girdling pulse is one kind of many pulse phenomena. I could not agree the Wiseman dictionary said that there are 8 pulse in China (maybe it just said the main kinds of them, I don't know because I haven't see it) since there are many kinds of pulse in Ancient China at least more than 8. TCM have Xian Mai(ÏÒÂö£©, Dai Mai(´úÂö£©, Shuo Mai(Ê?Âö£©. The pulse of Xian Mai like you are pressing on string, most of this kind of pulse is liver disease, some of it can appear in throe and phlegm. The pulse of Dai Mai is slow, sometimes stop and repulse after a long time, it means the enervation of viscera. Shuo Mai means the rapid pulse, it usually appears Heat. These are the main introduction of them. I don't know whether you can understand my expression or not. > Maria Zhang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Dear Douglas, Thank you for your encouragement! As I am concerned about which powder are best, I don't think any kind of granule is efficacious than raw herb. I think the appearance of concentrated herb granule (extract ratio 5:1 or 10:1) is the ramification of the rapid living step in US. People there have to face the hard pressure from the society and his surrounding people, once he slow down his up step, he will face a big trouble. So TIME become the very important thing to them. In order to save time, they invented many kinds of thing for people's convenience. They invest car to make people run more fast. They invest fast food to eat more fast. And also they want to invest a kind of thing that could make them cure their disease more fast. TCM depend on its green, no side-effect and efficacy conquered my US people, but its difficulty of decoction also make them headache. In order to coincide the US step, many companies begin to make this kind of consentrated herb granules. It is true that the consentrated one is timesaving, but it has also broken the traditional method of curing people. Each kind of herb has its way for reaching its best treatment point. Decoction can help it reach its point. Chinese Decoction is a very important process in the whole treatment. But the consentrated one skipped this process, the patient only need to mix various kind of granules together into water and drink it, then they have finished the whole treatment. You can imagine the efficacy. Here we are dicussing which powder are best. I think neither kind of powder are best. In China, if one doctor give the patient a prescription, all the patient would choose to buy the raw herb and decocted it by themselves or take the herbs to a professional place for decoction. I think this kind of treatment will be the best. Our body is ourselves. We should cherish ourselves!!! Maria Zhang - douglas Friday, January 17, 2003 11:43 PMRe: Digest Number 1275>Thank you for the information... we understand your expressions very well! Keep writing!Douglas>> different understanding of Chinese and English about TCM>> Recently, I have seen many discussion about girdling pulse and many comments about the different understanding of TCM. Here I want to express what I was thinking about them.>> For Girdling Pulse, what I understand is a kind of pulse phenomenon. My teacher told me that there are four kinds of diagnostics in Ancient China, Wang(Ãû£©, Wen£¨ÎÅ£©, Wen£¨ÎÊ£©, Qie£¨Ç?£©. And Qie is to Qie the patient's pulse, girdling pulse is one kind of many pulse phenomena. I could not agree the Wiseman dictionary said that there are 8 pulse in China (maybe it just said the main kinds of them, I don't know because I haven't see it) since there are many kinds of pulse in Ancient China at least more than 8. TCM have Xian Mai(ÃÒÂö£©, Dai Mai(´úÂö£©, Shuo Mai(Ê?Âö£©. The pulse of Xian Mai like you are pressing on string, most of this kind of pulse is liver disease, some of it can appear in throe and phlegm. The pulse of Dai Mai is slow, sometimes stop and repulse after a long time, it means the enervation of viscera. Shuo Mai means the rapid pulse, it usually appears Heat. These are the main introduction of them. I don't know whether you can understand my expression or not.> Maria ZhangChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Maria, Thanks for your post. Your points are very well taken. In fact I've just been reading a piece that is working on in which he talks about the clinical complications resulting from the tendency of modern life to speed things up. I have a question for you. How do you see the development of patent medicines (zhong1 cheng2 yao4) with respect to the urge to make administration of medicinal formulas more convenient if less effective? I'm not sure we can assign such tendencies exclusively to Westerners or Americans. Certainly the prospects of making products that will attract American buyers is a potent force in the herbal medicine market, as it is in many, many markets. But it seems to me that modern Chinese certainly have many of the same urges to simplify the administration of Chinese medicine. And it seems reasonable to conclude that this is not a strictly modern development in China or one that can be attributed to foreign influences alone. Ken , å¼ èŽ¹ <sunshine_975977@h...> wrote: > Dear Douglas, > > Thank you for your encouragement! > > As I am concerned about which powder are best, I don't think any kind of granule is efficacious than raw herb. I think the appearance of concentrated herb granule (extract ratio 5:1 or 10:1) is the ramification of the rapid living step in US. People there have to face the hard pressure from the society and his surrounding people, once he slow down his up step, he will face a big trouble. So TIME become the very important thing to them. In order to save time, they invented many kinds of thing for people's convenience. They invest car to make people run more fast. They invest fast food to eat more fast. And also they want to invest a kind of thing that could make them cure their disease more fast. TCM depend on its green, no side- effect and efficacy conquered my US people, but its difficulty of decoction also make them headache. In order to coincide the US step, many companies begin to make this kind of consentrated herb granules. It is true that the consentrated one is timesaving, but it has also broken the traditional method of curing people. Each kind of herb has its way for reaching its best treatment point. Decoction can help it reach its point. Chinese Decoction is a very important process in the whole treatment. But the consentrated one skipped this process, the patient only need to mix various kind of granules together into water and drink it, then they have finished the whole treatment. You can imagine the efficacy. Here we are dicussing which powder are best. I think neither kind of powder are best. In China, if one doctor give the patient a prescription, all the patient would choose to buy the raw herb and decocted it by themselves or take the herbs to a professional place for decoction. I think this kind of treatment will be the best. > > Our body is ourselves. We should cherish ourselves!!! > > Maria Zhang > > > > - > douglas > > Friday, January 17, 2003 11:43 PM > Re: Digest Number 1275 > > > > > > Thank you for the information... we understand your expressions very well! Keep writing! > Douglas > > > > > different understanding of Chinese and English about TCM > > > > Recently, I have seen many discussion about girdling pulse and many comments about the different understanding of TCM. Here I want to express what I was thinking about them. > > > > For Girdling Pulse, what I understand is a kind of pulse phenomenon. My teacher told me that there are four kinds of diagnostics in Ancient China, Wang(Ãû£©, Wen£¨ÎÅ£©, Wen£¨ ÎÊ£©, Qie£¨Ç?£©. And Qie is to Qie the patient's pulse, girdling pulse is one kind of many pulse phenomena. I could not agree the Wiseman dictionary said that there are 8 pulse in China (maybe it just said the main kinds of them, I don't know because I haven't see it) since there are many kinds of pulse in Ancient China at least more than 8. TCM have Xian Mai(ÃÃ'Âö£©, Dai Mai(´ú ö£©, Shuo Mai(Ê?Âö£©. The pulse of Xian Mai like you are pressing on string, most of this kind of pulse is liver disease, some of it can appear in throe and phlegm. The pulse of Dai Mai is slow, sometimes stop and repulse after a long time, it means the enervation of viscera. Shuo Mai means the rapid pulse, it usually appears Heat. These are the main introduction of them. I don't know whether you can understand my expression or not. > > Maria Zhang > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 " [Ken Rose said:] In fact I've just been reading a piece that Z'ev Rosenberg is working on in which he talks about the clinical complications resulting from the tendency of modern life to speed things up. " Z'ev: Along this line of thought you might be interested in reading Leon Hammer's comments on this very point. In his pulse book, he relates how a Tight pulse (jin mai) is a sign of an overworking nervous system. My own teacher---independently---made this observation and came to the same conclusion; it is now a very common and easily demonstrated finding. This finding is an innovation in pulse diagnosis which has developed during the latter half of the 20th century. In my own writing, I widen this clinical finding to include variations of Wiry pulses (xian mai). While not excluding the cold finding where appropriate, these types of pulses generally show the effect of the nervous system stress on the internal organs, muscles, and connective tissue. Some other pulse quality definitions are also changing because of contemporary environmental and psychological stresses---and also where WM adds and fills in details in the general outline that CM provides. We certainly live in interesting times. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Jim, I have read some of Leon Hammer's book (it is quite voluminous), and am aware of the section on the jin mai/tight pulse. While I've confirmed in my own practice some of his (and Dr. Shen's) findings independently, such as the influence of antidepressants on the pulse, the track I am taking in my latest piece, which will be in print soon, is based on time and its influence on pulse diagnosis. It is nice to see these independent discoveries about the influences of modern life on health and pulse coming from different sources such as Dr. Hammer and Dr. Sun Baek. I've cried wolf a lot in the last fifteen years about publishing a book, but this time I think it is really going to happen. I've already written a good part of it, the rest shouldn't take too long. It will be centered on pulse diagnosis. Otherwise, I am in agreement with you on the influences of modern life on the pulse, and how we need to factor them in. We do indeed live in interesting times. On Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 08:18 PM, James Ramholz <jramholz wrote: > " [Ken Rose said:] In fact I've just been reading a piece that Z'ev > Rosenberg is working on in which he talks about the clinical > complications resulting from the tendency of modern life to speed > things up. " > > > Z'ev: > > Along this line of thought you might be interested in reading Leon > Hammer's comments on this very point. In his pulse book, he relates > how a Tight pulse (jin mai) is a sign of an overworking nervous > system. My own teacher---independently---made this observation and > came to the same conclusion; it is now a very common and easily > demonstrated finding. This finding is an innovation in pulse > diagnosis which has developed during the latter half of the 20th > century. > > In my own writing, I widen this clinical finding to include > variations of Wiry pulses (xian mai). While not excluding the cold > finding where appropriate, these types of pulses generally show the > effect of the nervous system stress on the internal organs, muscles, > and connective tissue. > > Some other pulse quality definitions are also changing because of > contemporary environmental and psychological stresses---and also > where WM adds and fills in details in the general outline that CM > provides. > > We certainly live in interesting times. > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > I've cried wolf a lot in the last fifteen years about publishing a > book, but this time I think it is really going to happen. I've already written a good part of it, the rest shouldn't take too long. It will be centered on pulse diagnosis. Z'ev: " Centered " ? Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 Rory - I can appreciate and relate to your pejorative tone and consideration regarding 'pseudo-bio-physiological' concepts and the pulse. However, I have found that method of consideration to be one of the more useful artifacts of the Shen-Hammer collaboration. Will Then there is the issue of how to equate the Chinese medical interpretation of these sensations to such vague pseudo-bio-physiological concepts as "overworking nervous system". This term was used by John Shen to help him communicate with his midtown Manhattan patients. He also found that this sort of terminology appealed to Caucasian acupuncturists who attended his lectures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 At 4:18 AM +0000 1/22/03, James Ramholz <jramholz wrote: >Along this line of thought you might be interested in reading Leon >Hammer's comments on this very point. In his pulse book, he relates >how a Tight pulse (jin mai) is a sign of an overworking nervous >system. My own teacher---independently---made this observation and >came to the same conclusion; it is now a very common and easily >demonstrated finding. This finding is an innovation in pulse >diagnosis which has developed during the latter half of the 20th >century. -- Are you referring to a pulse which feels hard, like a twisted rope, and that vibrates from side to side? As I'm sure you know, this is the description of a tight/jin pulse found in the standard texts of Chinese medicine. If so, this is different from the sensation described by Hammer, who describe the tight pulse as wiry and thin -- in pin-yin xian xi. Hammer's goes to great lengths to claim that he is expanding the interpretation of the tight pulse, when in fact he is not. He compares his interpretation of his tight pulse, which is in fact a wiry & thin pulse, to the standard interpretation of a tight/jin pulse. His claim that this is a new interpretation of the tight pulse is not supportable, since he is talking about two different things as though they are one. Then there is the issue of how to equate the Chinese medical interpretation of these sensations to such vague pseudo-bio-physiological concepts as " overworking nervous system " . This term was used by John Shen to help him communicate with his midtown Manhattan patients. He also found that this sort of terminology appealed to Caucasian acupuncturists who attended his lectures. In Shen's own patient records, which were written in Chinese, he did not use these terminologies. When I asked him what his interpretation of the jin mai was, he said it was usually cold pain. I was able to spend a regrettably small amount of time following Dr Shen in clinic, so I'd be very interested to hear if anyone else ever asked and got a different answer from him about this. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 The reference comes from Hammer's article: " The Tight pulse is no longer a sign of internal cold, in our time it is a sign of an overworking nervous system. " The Dong Han system uses this idea but expands it to a variety of wiry movements; and it has many correlations to biomedical medicine. Jiang Jing used biomedical terms as often as he did CM. I was making an observation about this parallel discovery. Jim Ramholz , Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote: > At 4:18 AM +0000 1/22/03, James Ramholz <jramholz> wrote: > >Along this line of thought you might be interested in reading Leon > >Hammer's comments on this very point. In his pulse book, he relates > >how a Tight pulse (jin mai) is a sign of an overworking nervous > >system. My own teacher---independently---made this observation and > >came to the same conclusion; it is now a very common and easily > >demonstrated finding. This finding is an innovation in pulse > >diagnosis which has developed during the latter half of the 20th > >century. > -- > Are you referring to a pulse which feels hard, like a twisted rope, > and that vibrates from side to side? As I'm sure you know, this is > the description of a tight/jin pulse found in the standard texts of > Chinese medicine. > > If so, this is different from the sensation described by Hammer, who > describe the tight pulse as wiry and thin -- in pin-yin xian xi. > > Hammer's goes to great lengths to claim that he is expanding the > interpretation of the tight pulse, when in fact he is not. He > compares his interpretation of his tight pulse, which is in fact a > wiry & thin pulse, to the standard interpretation of a tight/jin > pulse. His claim that this is a new interpretation of the tight pulse > is not supportable, since he is talking about two different things as > though they are one. > > Then there is the issue of how to equate the Chinese medical > interpretation of these sensations to such vague > pseudo-bio-physiological concepts as " overworking nervous system " . > This term was used by John Shen to help him communicate with his > midtown Manhattan patients. He also found that this sort of > terminology appealed to Caucasian acupuncturists who attended his > lectures. In Shen's own patient records, which were written in > Chinese, he did not use these terminologies. When I asked him what > his interpretation of the jin mai was, he said it was usually cold > pain. I was able to spend a regrettably small amount of time > following Dr Shen in clinic, so I'd be very interested to hear if > anyone else ever asked and got a different answer from him about this. > > Rory > -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 , WMorris116@A... wrote: > I can appreciate and relate to your pejorative tone and consideration regarding 'pseudo-bio-physiological' concepts and the pulse. However, I have found that method of consideration to be one of the more useful artifacts of the Shen-Hammer collaboration. Will: I agree. In fact, the Dong Han system develops this area of interpretation extensively. For several years, until trying to communicate with your pulse forum, I mistakenly thought it was a common approach in CM. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 In other words, about pulse diagnosis as a focus, but the book is basically on timing in clinical medicine. On Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 11:41 PM, James Ramholz <jramholz wrote: > Z'ev: > > " Centered " ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 Write faster. , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > In other words, about pulse diagnosis as a focus, but the book is > basically on timing in clinical medicine. > > > On Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 11:41 PM, James Ramholz > <jramholz> wrote: > > > Z'ev: > > > > " Centered " ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 At 4:47 PM +0000 1/22/03, James Ramholz <jramholz wrote: >The reference comes from Hammer's article: " The Tight pulse is no >longer a sign of internal cold, in our time it is a sign of an >overworking nervous system. " The Dong Han system uses this idea but >expands it to a variety of wiry movements; and it has many >correlations to biomedical medicine. Jiang Jing used biomedical >terms as often as he did CM. I was making an observation about this >parallel discovery. -- Yes, but for any of this to mean anything to the rest of us, you will have to describe the sensation that you call a tight pulse. If the sensation you are describing as tight is the same as that in the literature for a tight/jin, then you are actually in disagreement with Hammer, not in agreement. If your version is not the same as in the literature, but is the same as Hammer's, you are taliking about what we all call a wiry thin pulse and not what we call a tight pulse. Until you describe the sensation, you are comparing words, not pulse qualities. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 At 9:55 AM -0500 1/22/03, WMorris116 wrote: I have found that method of consideration to be one of the more useful artifacts of the Shen-Hammer collaboration. -- I agree it can be useful. I should also add that there are many wonderful insights to be found in Shen's and Hammer's work. Hammer's confusion of the tight quality isn't one of them. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 Thanks, Jim. You know what they say, speaking about time; time is money:) And writing doesn't pay the bills. On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 06:36 PM, James Ramholz <jramholz wrote: > > Write faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 In , Rory Kerr wrote: > Yes, but for any of this to mean anything to the rest of us, you will have to describe the sensation that you call a tight pulse. If the sensation you are describing as tight is the same as that in the > literature for a tight/jin, then you are actually in disagreement > with Hammer, not in agreement. If your version is not the same as in the literature, but is the same as Hammer's, you are talking about what we all call a wiry thin pulse and not what we call a tight pulse. Until you describe the sensation, you are comparing words, not pulse qualities. Rory: As mentioned earlier, the Dong Han system looks not just at tight but at a variety of wiry qualities, but also compounds them with the space they resonate in. We identify not only qualities but which sector of a position we're refering to, and how that particular pulse movement connects or interacts with other positions. For example, to see the nervous system involvement with the gastrointestinal tract, we would examine the 2nd of 5 depths on the right wrist, continuous from SJ into the stomach. If, in the stomach position, the wiry movement spikes, it indicates the creation of an ulcer (localized heat dispersing mucus). How much and how sharp the movement spikes indicates the severity and degree of the ulcer's development. In this case, we are looking only at the qualities at the 2nd of 5 depths the whole position (sometimes the 2nd of 5 depths of the fu) independently of whatever else is going on in either the SJ or St. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 At 8:29 AM +0000 1/23/03, James Ramholz <jramholz wrote: Dong Han system looks not just at tight but at a variety of wiry qualities, but also compounds them with the space they resonate in. -- They could be orbiting the moon, but until you define a tight pulse, there is really no point in further discussion. Its a pretty simple and clear question: What is the sensation you are referring to as tight? Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 In , Rory Kerr wrote: > Yes, but for any of this to mean anything to the rest of us, you will have to describe the sensation that you call a tight pulse. When we say string-like it indicates a string of a bow, so it is a very tight pulse without any flaccidity; thin and long. When you lessen the pressure, the pulse will feel like it is moving; but when you press it, it becomes tight and the moving sensation will disappear. It is almost like tension on a drum; when you touch it, it feels like it has a wave on it, but if you press it gets all tight. The primary characteristic of this pulse is absorption, storage, and stagnation of qi. In relation to this pulse there is a general inward direction of the qi movement. Sometimes we use Tense, Tight, or Urgent as synonyms for Xian mai depending on the context and other qualities involved. An Urgent pulse is an extreme condition of Wiry movement which vibrates to the left and right, and feels as if it may break at any time. We divide Wiry pulses into four subtypes according to where in the pulse wave we find it: the tightness being in the Front, in the Back, in the upbeat, or in the downbeat. This tension will indicate different things in the context of where in the wave and in which organ it is found. For example, if you felt this pulse in the Sanjiao or various depths related to the nervous system, it would indicate nervous tension. In the case of the Sanjiao, you would have to check further to see if it is happening because the Sanjiao is too weak to take more stress, or because that stress is the product of another organ. If it is coming from another organ it might be an excessive condition, but if you cannot find any stress from other organs coming towards the Sanjiao, then most likely that tension is caused by the exhaustion of the nervous system. Consequently, it is highly sensitive to any kind of stimulation. In the other case, if the Sanjiao is sending this stress elsewhere, it could also be related to some kind of mental or emotional response. Wiry pulses in depths related to the nervous system can indicate nervous tension in the musculature, connective tissue, or internal organs. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 At 1:39 AM +0000 1/24/03, James Ramholz <jramholz wrote: >Sometimes we use Tense, >Tight, or Urgent as synonyms for Xian mai depending on the context >and other qualities involved -- Well, it sounds as though you are using the term tight in a roughly similar way to Leon Hammer, as opposed to the description of the tight/jin mai found in eg the mai jing and Li Shi-Zhen's pulse writings, and modern Chinese pulse texts. You are talking about a different pulse quality than these texts, so when you use the term tight, needless to say your interpretation should be different also. This is all fine, even if a little confusing. Where Hammer seems to go adrift is in claiming that he is adding a new interpretation for the tight pulse, and ignoring the fact that he is referring to a different pulse quality. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Rory: Why do you oppose the " bio-physiological " interpretation of pulses? Jim Ramholz , Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote: > At 1:39 AM +0000 1/24/03, James Ramholz <jramholz> wrote: > >Sometimes we use Tense, > >Tight, or Urgent as synonyms for Xian mai depending on the context > >and other qualities involved > -- > > Well, it sounds as though you are using the term tight in a roughly > similar way to Leon Hammer, as opposed to the description of the > tight/jin mai found in eg the mai jing and Li Shi-Zhen's pulse > writings, and modern Chinese pulse texts. You are talking about a > different pulse quality than these texts, so when you use the term > tight, needless to say your interpretation should be different also. > This is all fine, even if a little confusing. Where Hammer seems to > go adrift is in claiming that he is adding a new interpretation for > the tight pulse, and ignoring the fact that he is referring to a > different pulse quality. > > Rory > -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 I know why I oppose it. Because, unlike the original biomedical terminology, as used in the Shen-Hammer context, they are non-specific terms referring to impressions rather than physiological entities. On Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 08:20 PM, James Ramholz <jramholz wrote: > > Why do you oppose the " bio-physiological " interpretation of pulses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 All, This discussion between Rory and Jim on the topic of tight, urget, tense, xian, or otherwise-descirbed pulses is a good example of the pitfalls that lie open in our path as we progress towards understanding and application of Chinese medical concepts and theories. Again, there tends to be a conflation of issues that takes place so that complex problems come to be considered as if they were simple and unitary. The importance of understanding the Chinese terms is greater for those who deal with the subject largely or exclusively in translation, exactly in order to lessen the difficulties and confusions that result from the widespread and necessary practice of interpreting the information that these words contain and constitute. For the lack of a common knowledge base that includes a familiarity with and understanding of the Chinese terms, these terms tend to become the victims of such interpretations rather than tools to facilitate both understanding and application of the theories and methodolgies that they describe. When words come to mean whatever anybody wants them to mean, they tend to mean less and less; and finally they mean nothing at all. But the words have meanings, and these meanings can all be known, grasped, understood, and appreciated for what there changing meanings have been for centuries. We are part of this process, but if we continue to ignore the language we simply reduce our effectiveness in limit our own knowledge and influence. Does this apply in the clinic? Well what are you trying to do in the clinic if not apply your knowledge in order to influence your patients? Ken , Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote: > At 1:39 AM +0000 1/24/03, James Ramholz <jramholz> wrote: > >Sometimes we use Tense, > >Tight, or Urgent as synonyms for Xian mai depending on the context > >and other qualities involved > -- > > Well, it sounds as though you are using the term tight in a roughly > similar way to Leon Hammer, as opposed to the description of the > tight/jin mai found in eg the mai jing and Li Shi-Zhen's pulse > writings, and modern Chinese pulse texts. You are talking about a > different pulse quality than these texts, so when you use the term > tight, needless to say your interpretation should be different also. > This is all fine, even if a little confusing. Where Hammer seems to > go adrift is in claiming that he is adding a new interpretation for > the tight pulse, and ignoring the fact that he is referring to a > different pulse quality. > > Rory > -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 At 4:20 AM +0000 1/24/03, James Ramholz <jramholz wrote: >Why do you oppose the " bio-physiological " interpretation of pulses? -- I don't think I said I was opposed. I'm not. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 Nicely said. Bob , " dragon90405 <yulong@m...> " <yulong@m...> wrote: > All, > > This discussion between Rory and Jim on > the topic of tight, urget, tense, xian, > or otherwise-descirbed pulses is a good > example of the pitfalls that lie open > in our path as we progress towards understanding > and application of Chinese medical concepts > and theories. > > Again, there tends to be a conflation of > issues that takes place so that complex > problems come to be considered as if they > were simple and unitary. > > The importance of understanding the Chinese > terms is greater for those who deal with > the subject largely or exclusively in > translation, exactly in order to lessen > the difficulties and confusions that > result from the widespread and necessary > practice of interpreting the information > that these words contain and constitute. > > For the lack of a common knowledge base > that includes a familiarity with and > understanding of the Chinese terms, these > terms tend to become the victims of such > interpretations rather than tools to > facilitate both understanding and application > of the theories and methodolgies that > they describe. > > When words come to mean whatever anybody > wants them to mean, they tend to mean less > and less; and finally they mean nothing > at all. > > But the words have meanings, and these > meanings can all be known, grasped, > understood, and appreciated for what > there changing meanings have been > for centuries. > > We are part of this process, but if > we continue to ignore the language > we simply reduce our effectiveness > in limit our own knowledge and > influence. > > Does this apply in the clinic? > > Well what are you trying to do in > the clinic if not apply your knowledge > in order to influence your patients? > > Ken > > > > , Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> > wrote: > > At 1:39 AM +0000 1/24/03, James Ramholz <jramholz> wrote: > > >Sometimes we use Tense, > > >Tight, or Urgent as synonyms for Xian mai depending on the context > > >and other qualities involved > > -- > > > > Well, it sounds as though you are using the term tight in a > roughly > > similar way to Leon Hammer, as opposed to the description of the > > tight/jin mai found in eg the mai jing and Li Shi-Zhen's pulse > > writings, and modern Chinese pulse texts. You are talking about a > > different pulse quality than these texts, so when you use the term > > tight, needless to say your interpretation should be different > also. > > This is all fine, even if a little confusing. Where Hammer seems > to > > go adrift is in claiming that he is adding a new interpretation > for > > the tight pulse, and ignoring the fact that he is referring to a > > different pulse quality. > > > > Rory > > -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 , " dragon90405 <yulong@m...> " <yulong@m...> wrote: > We are part of this process, but if > we continue to ignore the language > we simply reduce our effectiveness > in limit our own knowledge and > influence. Ken: You're missing the most important point of both the Shen/Hammer and Dong Han material. While they are systems that have historically developed from the classical material, they are NOT simply trying to repeat those findings. They are innovations. For instance, look at the new ways they each develop the physical space of the pulse positions. Creating new positions and sectors changes the meaning of the original pulse qualities. We are not simply translating old material, we are developing new ideas. To criticize them for not keeping to the way things used to be is a fundamentalist attitude that represses progress. Examining pulses in the context of a new cultural and intellectual environment also invites new interpretations. At this time in history, teaching and employing them in clinic is an important form of peer review. So far, these systems have enhanced our effectiveness and expanded our own knowledge and influence. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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