Butch -- Vitex Question

[Guest guest]

Hi Sarah,

 

>>Hard to say .. different strokes for different folks and I am somewhat

>>disappointed that some of the folks on this list who have written me

>>nice testimonials on their success have chosen to not come forward and

>>take a stand .. perhaps they don't want to be called foolish or have

>>their character slammed because they think and act differently than some

>>folks think they should.

>

> butch,

>

> i appreciate you writing this. i am not currently a vitex user; so, i cannot

comment on that.

 

Understood.

 

> i do, however, value an environment in which each individual can freely

express

> him/herself, be it an opinion or providing a reference to a study or a

personal experience

> of a herb/oil/nutritional supplement/bodywork modality/surgery, etc. i think

the

> important point is to be clear about the source of the information being

provided and the

> grounds on which someone is providing that information. all of the above are

valuable

> and readers have a right to know which is being provided. i realize that i

failed to do this

> when i posted recently about uva ursi and cranberry. to have provided a

reference would

> have made the information more useful to readers.

 

If we can support a position with more than opinion it is certainly

better to do so. Unfortunately, in this world of alternative and/or

complementary treatment there are not always a lot of references to be

had .. and lack of references is the norm more than the exception.

 

We can take a position that lack of scientific proof means lack of

credibility .. and if we do this, we are also saying that the entire

modality of Aromatherapy and use of essential oils is at best, flaky and

not likely to change in our lifetimes due to a lack of incentive to

conduct scientific testing on natural products that can't be patented.

 

Not sure if folks know the markup on prescription drugs but the lowest

markup for the generics is in the 2,000% range .. for the prescription

drugs its as high as 4,000% .. and I can provide a reference for that ..

but its in my other PC now and I would prefer to not type it all out

while reading it. These figures alone will tell us why there is no

incentive to conduct scientific testing on natural oils.

 

But .. considering the list of untested oils I posted to Oils & Herbs on

19 January (coming again now for the new folks) we gotta consider that

most of the main-line, bread and butter oils used in this industry do

not have references for testing .. and those that do are for dermal

testing .. conducted by those who wish to use them in commercial skin

care and cosmetics products. No testing for sniffing .. no testing for

ingestion .. so where does that leave us? Wait for testing .. or forget

the oils .. and forget aromatherapy.

 

Vitex has far more testing than most of the other oils. Is this testing

sufficient? Probably not if you are a scientist but Dr. Chuck Woodfield

who is a trained medical person has conducted his own testing and that,

couple with the work done by Barbara Lucks, is probably about as close

as we're ever going to get on Vitex.

 

The Origanums have a crap pot full of scientific testing .. I could fill

your hard drive with it .. but that testing has almost all been done in

countries where English is not the native language. These folks have

yet to be corrupted by the mega-buck, international pharmaceutical

companies that swoop down and dominate the time and efforts of small and

large researchers in the USA.

 

Scientists are still arguing about the value of Vit. C and Calcium and

this and that and we can count on seeing major changes in these

positions from year to year. Does a new position mean that for years

we have been using unsafe products? Often it does! We find the FDA

annually removing about as many drugs from the shelves as they approve

going on the shelves .. so where is that 100% safety margin? Do we need

a 100% safety margin? If we think we do .. we're probably crap out of

luck because even the AMA admits that wrongful prescription and

incorrect diagnosis cause more accidental deaths in the USA than does

crimes of violence including those with handguns. Let some folks go

under from use of an EO and it'll make national news .. but have any of

you read such stories?

 

> butch, i believe that you consistently do this. that is, provide a clear

indication of where

> your communication is coming from -- i.e., opinion, customer testamonial,

clinical experience

> of a professional, findings from a study. and, i appreciate this clarity.

 

I do my best though its not always possible .. and I thank you for the

appreciation of my efforts.

 

> I don't always agree with your personal opinions. however, i do respect you

and your right to

> hold and express those opinions. and, my disagreement with those opinions does

not cloud my

> ability to receive and appreciate the other valuable information you

generously provide to

> all of us.

 

Heck .. I'm glad everybody doesn't agree with my personal opinions. I

don't think I could handle a buncha cloned Butch types out there nodding

their heads like little doggies with lights in their eyes in the back of

the car window. ;-)

 

Our opinions are based on our life experiences .. which I think is good.

Its individual and it works for us and as long as we don't crap in the

other feller's mess kit its OK to be different. In some cases, opinions

are based on trying to follow in the footsteps of others by taking on

their opinions and/or behavior as our own .. and this, to me, is sorta

dangerous .. especially if we grab onto the britches legs of someone who

might not know where they are really going or much less how the hell

they got here in the first place. Kings don't last forever.

 

> i do not believe that all of the recent postings have maintained this clarity.

i have found

> some of them to be personal attacks. i think some of them have been opinion

presented

> as fact. i am more than willing to be proven wrong on this count. references

would be

> helpful. initially, i had no intention of posting on any of this. fear of

getting caught in the

> name calling contributed to my hesitation. then, i realized that that was a

form of self-

> imposed censorship. your post compelled me to write.

 

I'm glad you wrote .. I'm glad you have the courage to write. And I

would love to hear from folks who flat butt disagree with my stand on

Vitex .. but please give me some sound reasons why you disagree .. don't

highlight and paste something you found in a reference publication that

more times than not is totally irrelevant to the issues at hand.

 

I do not like peeing contests .. I'm too old to tolerate them and don't

want to participate .. I much prefer a good knock down bar fight where

odds are you will make some good friends after everybody has cleaned up

and settled down. All of us would prefer to be right all the time ..

nothing wrong with that unless our efforts to prove we are right are

seen by others as being personal rather than professional.

 

I try (and sometimes fail) to avoid commenting on things I should not

comment on .. like cosmetics or perfumes or soaps or herbs or a dozen

other things that I have little knowledge on .. I might have an opinion

but odds are great that its based on incorrect information and if I be

real quiet I will get some good information off this list from folks who

have opinions based on experience and solid knowledge.

 

> i appreciate the tone of tolerance that chis has set and maintained for this

group. i believe

> that there is a way to express divergent information and opinion in a

respectful way. i look

> forward to that in the future.

> sarah

 

Good show and I am 100% with you in that regard. For a young Yankee Gal

she does a rat smart job running her list and it has grown considerably

in the last 60 days .. by around 20%. I tell folks often that if they

want to join a friendly, tolerant and very informative list where they

can feel welcome instead of intimidated .. join Oils & Herbs.

 

I thank you ma'am for your comments .. and y'all keep smiling. :-)

 

Butch http://www.AV-AT.com