Vitex Essential Oil - reply to Butch

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Replies mainly to Butch,

 

I will just reply to your most important points as many things you

raise have got nothing to do with the issue of Vitex oil use.

 

>No one has got a clue on the safety of vitex essential oil.

>>Too broad this .. get more specific

I can't be more specific neither can you or anyone else because no

one knows anything about the safe uses of this oil.

 

>There are a few hundreds of people I know of who have used it

>but to date I have heard of NOT ONE single case of harm

The answer to that was covered on this group not long ago. You are

putting up the same old agrument that does not hold water.

 

Re clinical trials:

I do not dispute that many clinical trials have flaws in them. That

will apply equally to conventional medicines as well as traditional.

However, that has got nothing at all to do with the FACT that the

potential uses of vitex essential oil were first proposed by Janina

Srenson who was looking for an outlet for oils she produced as well

as trying to develop the science behind its use. To date I am not

satisfied that she has made an adequate case. Then the PIA quickly

jumped on the bandwagon all based on the flimsiest of evidence. Then

once Barbara Lucks posted her inadequate findings all the oil

suppliers started to jump on the bandwagon. All this without a

single piece of sound evidence on the efficacy or safety of the oil.

 

>Half the oils used in Aromatherapy have not a single minute of study

>conducted on them

Your figures are wrong as pointed out in previous mails.

 

>Peppermint has not been studied.

Only not for skin safety, at least that is an oil which has been used

for hundreds of years in thousands of products and on which we have a

clear idea on its safety and mountains on its efficacy.

 

Vitex Agnus Castus oil has not been tested for anything apart from

its chemical profile and has NEVER been used in traditional

medicine. It has only been used in a haphazard manner for the last 4

years or so. All the potential uses are based on the fact that

Janina Srensen *thought* she had isolated a single component in the

oil that *might* be one of the herbs active ingredients. As pointed

out on Sunday, that is classic chemical science and has nothing

whatsoever to do with the traditional use of the herb. The herb

contains hundreds of compounds with enormously complex synergistic

activities most of which we do not understand, but we do know the

effects of the whole herbal extract. We have no idea on the actions

of vitex oil despite the many anecdotal reports. If someone wants to

mount a trial fine, but it must be a hundred fold better than the

lousy studies conducted to date. In my opinion, if this oil does have

a use, it should be as a regular pharmaceutical product and be

subject to the same kind of trials as any other drug.

 

>But Vitex EO has been used for 20 or more years that I know of

>my distiller here in Turkey had sold a lot of Vitex EO to Europe for

>more than twenty years

You sure you don't mean for the fragrance trade which is where most

of these novel oils may have been used at one time or another? They

use such oils diluted to parts per million, nothing remotely similar

to the way aromatherapists use them. I have never seen a reference

to the use of this oil in any traditional medicinal products and very

much doubt it was ever used that way.

 

>What point must one cross to say its safe?

It can never be considered safe in my eyes without formal

dermatological testing even when done on limited numbers of people.

At least then we have some idea on its safety. In the case of vitex

oil I am less concerned with its skin safety as what its affects may

be on the female hormone system. We know the herb is highly active

in that respect so we need to be ultra cautious with an essential oil

as it may be a thousand times more concentrated than the herb. My

personal concern is long term damage to the female reproductive

system due to over stimulation of the pituitary and possibly the

ovaries. Anything that abnormally stimulates such organs is full of

dangers. There are numerous other methods which holistic

practitioners can utilize to smooth out menopausal problems all of

which have histories reaching back hundreds to thousands of years.

Likewise to treat many other female problems - see my article on

pennyroyal. So again I say why use something with an unknown track

record?

 

Re the placebo effect: A sugar pill can give a powerful response

and in trials between 40-80% placebo effect is reported. Perhaps

therefore according to Butch's logic you better start selling an

essential oil made from sugar cane - " well it works " . Oh boy better

shut my mouth or some oil supplier will do just that and claim it is

good for everything from an ingrowing toenail to cancer.

Martin

 

, Butch Owen <butchbsi@s...>

wrote:

> Hey Martin,

>

> > Chuck Woodfield said:

> > >From my personal study and known safety record (see below),

Vitex is

> > >safer than anything you can get from the drugstore or on

> > >prescription written by your competent healthcare provider.

> >

> > I would just like to point out that this statement is not correct.

>

> I would just like to point out that you can't prove your statement

so

> I think that your statement (above) is incorrect. Plus the

statement

> you disagree with was written by a pharmacist who is used to seeing

the

> incompetence of many health care providers when it comes to

prescribing

> medications .. that is one of the things pharmacists often get upset

> about and one of the things that even the American Medical

Association

> reported as being a leading cause of accidental death in the USA.

>

> > No one has got a clue on the safety of vitex essential oil.

>

> Too broad this .. get more specific. Has anyone got a clue as to it

> being unsafe? There are a few hundreds of people I know of who have

> used it .. and a few thousands (I'm sure) that I don't know of ..

but

> to date I have heard of NOT ONE single case of harm.

>

> Do we have a clue as to the safety of clinical trials? Every week

we

> read about honest doctors getting upset because of the vested

interests

> in approving many drugs .. and we read of investigations uncovering

the

> corruption in the area of research. Martin .. I know you .. and I

know

> that you do not even believe what you have written here.

>

> If clinical, double-blind, peer-reviewed, so-called independent

testing

> was so damn surefire then why are as many drugs recalled as there

are

> drugs approved? And why do people die from approved drugs. You

cannot

> give that much credit to researchers .. they are not omnipotent ..

and

> many are corruptable .. especially if they have a home mortagage to

pay.

>

> > It is only the herb and the alcohol extract that have been

studied.

>

> So .. what did they do before it was studied? For that matter,

where

> did the information come from that would direct researchers to study

> any natural product? The answer is .. folks were using them so they

> decided to follow up on the results. But they were not researched

by

> the Gold Star Method you are prescribing here .. few were.

>

> NO essential oil has been studied according to the standards you are

> writing about here .. and few have been studied at all .. does that

mean

> they should not be used? I know your answer is .. they should not

be

> used .. and I don't buy that. Peppermint has not been studied.

Half

> the oils used in Aromatherapy have not a single minute of study

> conducted on them .. and those that have any study at all are

almost

> always studied (to some half fast degree) relating to dermal use ..

not

> sniffing and not ingestion and not diffusing.

>

> Since many of the " studies " you speak of involve 60-65 people .. if

any

> competent medical authority reports that tests showed that 75-85

people

> reported no irritation or sensitization after application of a 5%

or 8%

> dilution of Vitex would you then say it had been studied? Maybe

you

> should .. maybe you shouldn't .. but what kind of studies do we

need?

> Are there any competent studies to report on other essential oils?

> Pick a dozen .. please .. and report. I mean scientific studies

that

> followed up and all that good idealistic humma-humma.

>

> > Why use an oil on which there is no sound safety data or sound

> > therapeutics when the herbal extract has been used effectively for

> > hundreds of years?

>

> Why use essential oils at all? But Vitex EO has been used for 20

or

> more years that I know of .. maybe longer .. America is not the only

> country that has used distilled Vitex EO. What point must one

cross to

> say its safe .. is it 25 years or 50 years or 100 years?

>

> > However, herbalists know that even the unrefined herb is not

without

> > its side effects; a highly concentrated essential oil may have

adverse

> > effects that we do not yet understand.

>

> Does this mean .. that we should never use it .. or any other EO

for

> that matter .. until it is studied and we know that there will be no

> adverse side effects? We can wait till hell freezes over because

there

> are two major problems with that recommendation. First .. we must

use

> human critters .. not in vivo or invitro testing .. if the test is

to

> be credible .. and that is even a grey area because the medicos and

the

> researchers are now fighting amongst themselves on whether we can

even

> use rats or pissants and would it be credible if we did .. its a

matter

> of ethical conflict and extrapolation of species to species .. with

no

> clear right or wrong. Second .. why would anyone study a medication

> that can't be patented? It takes millions of bucks and years of

study

> and even the greasing of some palms to get FDA approval for a

medication

> hat might be pulled the following year by the FDA because they

decided

> it was very hazardous .. even after the so-called clinical testing.

>

> > The use of this oil internally is playing with fire over the long

term

> > reproductive health of pre-menopausal women. Even sniffing the

oil -

> > although less of a hazard - could cause problems if used long

term.

>

> This is an assumption on your part .. and its based on your stand

and

> position that if it ain't tested .. it ain't safe. I think that

stand

> is at best, idealistic .. and overstated as for not being safe for

use.

>

> > Applying it to the skin in fixed oils nothing will be absorbed,

> > although in a cream possibly some may be.

>

> Martin .. I go along with the fact that WHOLE OILS do not absorb ..

its

> got to do with molecular size and other issues ... plus the skin

being

> the largest protective organ of the body .. but we cannot say that

it

> WILL NOT absorb .. or none of it will absorb .. that is .. without

> testing .. am I not repeating what you so often write?

>

> > This is one of those oils that I eluded to in previous mails.

Tiny

> > snippets of uncoordinated and uncorroborated information are

seized

> > on by oil suppliers in order to create a demand for an oil.

>

> This standard statement of yours that is getting old .. and its damn

> insulting. I did not create the demand .. Marge did not create the

> demand .. whoever else of this list sells it (not sure who?) did not

> create the demand. The demand has been around for many years .. my

> distiller here in Turkey had sold a lot of Vitex EO to Europe for

more

> than twenty years prior to me even knowing what Vitex was.

>

> > At a later date I will do a review of all the claims made for this

> > oil and particularly on the so called " trials " which actually

amount

> > to zilch. See below for an independent review of the published

> > papers.

>

> This too will be an opinion .. and perhaps a biased opinion.

>

> > Lastly, no properly qualified herbalist would ever use a single

herb

> > such as vitex to treat menopausal problems. The aim is to balance

> > the body and that can only be done by a combination of herbs

aimed at

> > the individual. Using any single herb is just a substitute for

> > conventional drugs, i.e. take this drug and it will cure this

> > illness - the magic bullet approach.

>

> It appears that you (and Anya) have opinions that herbalists are the

> most knowledgeble people regarding use of natural products .. you

begin

> many sentences with praise for them. So should we conclude that

your

> opinions are coming from the mentality of a herbalist and they

might not

> coincide with opinions of those who aren't herbalists?

>

> > The way vitex oil is being promoted is the opposite to what true

> > traditional healing is about.

>

> I'm not sure that use of Vitex is all even about healing .. I think

its

> about just what you guys are against .. reducing symptoms of the

> problem. Is it menopause that's the problem or is it the symptoms of

> menopause that's the problem?

>

> I don't know the answer .. but I expect the ladies would say it's

the

> symptoms that are kicking them in the butt.

>

> We know that with a cold or flu .. all of the TESTED treatments do

no

> more than treat the symptoms .. that is what we want relief from.

Treat

> it and it goes away in a week or so but if you don't treat it then

it

> takes seven or so days. But symptoms of menopause don't go away by

> themselves like a cold goes away.

>

> My comments continue .. below ......

>

> > Martin Watt

> > Medical Herbalist.

> > http://www.aromamedical.com

> > --------------------------

> >

> > Re the vitex anthology as reported by Barbara Chopin Lucks

> > Review by Maria Liz Balchin

> >

> > The main problems are:

> >

> > " No double-blind controlled study, no randomization, everybody

knew

> > what they were using and everybody could swop from one oil to the

> > other. Apart from that all participants had a positive attitude. "

> > Almost directly quoted from the article.

>

> I don't disagree with this .. and it could have been an issue for

the

> courts if it had been otherwise .. violation of rights .. and ethics

> violations. She told them all up front what was going down.

>

> > Consequently, the only real outcome was placebo.

>

> How can you make such a positive statement .. incredible! Do you

> refuse to accept that there MIGHT, MAYBE, POSSIBLY be some REAL

> therapeutic value in the chemical components being administered?

>

> > However, the placebo effect is a very potent factor, even in

> > conventional medicine where it can account for up to 90% of the

> > effect. Nothing wrong with that, therefore, except that this

clinical

> > trial didn't measure what it set out to do because of this effect.

>

> Barbara is not a medical researcher .. she doesn't even sell EO as

> far as I know .. but what she did is a helluva lot better than ..

>

> 1. Standing around with our hands in our pockets or our fingers in

> our noses doing nothing .. and there is NO CHANCE of you or me or

any

> other person on this list EVER seeing GOLD STANDARD Clinical Trials

> on Vitex .. so what she did was outstanding and likely to be the

only

> real research we see .. aside from that conducted by Dr. Chuck and

> a few medical folks like him.

>

> 2. Its better to seek truth as best one can than it is to be a

critic

> of those who seek truth .. or to be one who seeks only falsehoods.

>

> > The effect of a placebo on hormonal changes in the body can be

> > immense. This effect was evident in some of the remarks made in

the

> > article.

>

> Good show .. then it worked. If it works .. it works. But then ..

we

> don't really know why do we? But we think we know why some of the

many

> prescription drugs work .. and they are tested .. and they still

KILL!

>

> > It would be nice to see the composition of the oils, also who

> > analysed them.

>

> I have that for my Vitex Leaf and Vitex Fruit oils .. analyzed by

> Professor Baser .. I can send them .. but what would that tell you?

>

> > Other problems with the survey include:

> >

> > The different ages of women

> > Different stages of menopause, if any

>

> They didn't hold their mouths right .. like shooting foul balls. ;-

p

>

> > The participation of a child of 11 with her mother (legality?)

>

> Yes .. it is legal!!!

>

> > Are the oils toxicologically tested? very doubtful...

>

> Martin .. I am aware of but two ways that toxic dosages are

determined.

> One is no longer conducted .. the LD-50 tests on animals .. keep

giving

> the critters more and more till 50% of them die .. the other hasn't

been

> used in a while .. not since Hitler .. unless maybe Saddam used it.

> If there are other ways to do it .. please lemme know.

>

> > What conventional/non-conventional drugs were taken by each woman

v

> > the result obtained, as generalisations are not very relevant

> > otherwise

>

> Ask Barbara if she knew this .. maybe she did .. there were some

medical

> types involved in portions of the study.

>

> > How exactly was the oil taken in each case: including frequency of

> > use and dosage (this was vaguely given as licked off palm or

smelt;

> > was it taken any other way?)

>

> I expect she could answer that too.

>

> > As one third of women stopped the drug during the study and were

> > therefore very unhappy with it or badly affected, what medical

follow-

> > up was undertaken to determine the toxicity effects?

>

> What medical follow up has been conducted to determine if many years

> after dermal application of an EO .. the person paid to participate

in

> the test developed sensitization to one of the oils? NONE!

>

> > Conclusion:

> > This is a useless study of the placebo effect of two extracts of

> > Vitex on women who were already strong believers of Essential oil

> > efficacy.

>

> To say its useless is another incredible statement!

>

> If your perfect system was to be the norm for use of essential

oils ..

> or even herbs .. then we would have to fold now!!!!!!! Butch