Guest guest Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 Hey Anya, > >The original report primarily concerned itself with ingestion .. which > >I have never believed was necessary .. even Martin in his extreme > >caution has (for the record .. on this list) stated that there is no > >way inhalation of an essential oil is harmful. And that is the way > >the ladies in my office used it for years .. with good results. > > I'm only going to reply to this post, Butch, since I see you've post > about a dozen and that's quite a bit -- this reply should suffice. And .. I think the ones I posted should suffice to allow anyone who is interested to review the ups and downs and pros and cons and the whole nine yards of what has been put out to date. I think the suppression of this information is NOT in anybody's best interests and much of the information I put out has been published in at least two professional journals .. one of which was for nurses. > The original report did not concern itself with ingestion. Women were > instructed to inhale, ingest, or apply dermally. Almost all of the application was dermal and ingestion .. those who did choose to inhale .. says other sources .. to include Chuck Woodfield .. and says Butch Owen based on over three years of observing it being used by ladies I worked with daily .. got almost instant results for hot flashes and great benefits against PMS. > And I had a reaction from just inhaling for a minute a day that screwed > my menses up. Then I stopped using it, and they immediately became > normal again. But is that alone reason to condemn it? I think not. Many folks will react differently to a host of commercial or natural products. > I'm not menopausal, but some of the menopausal participants started > having their period again after years of being period-free. All of that information was included in the data I posted. We can make a couple of conclusions from that .. 1. The people on this list are too stupid to read for themselves and decide what they want to do .. or 2. Regardless of the level of intelligence and sophistication of a majority of people we should suppress this information to protect the few who might not read well and abuse themselves. That smacks of Big Brother mentality .. it is not an issue of safety .. its suppression of info. > Definitely raised red flags, especially with the lack of followup. Jeez .. who has followed up on the use of any essential oil .. to include the dermal testing reported by the omnipotent collectors of such info? There are no guarantees to be given even in taking an aspirin but there is a need to provide people with sufficient information so they can make informed decisions .. and that is what I did .. and will continue to do as long as I am involved in this crappy cottage industry. One of my 2004 resolutions was to never again keep my mouth shut on a couple of issues that have bothered me for a long time .. and I think I must take that stand .. or get the hell out. I am getting rather tired of people who think they have all the answers trying to suppress information or sway people to believe the way they do because they choose to take a particular stand even when there is no more information upon which they can base their stand than there is for the opposing point of view. In the past I sometimes found myself nodding along with them like a little dog in the back window .. just to keep peace. But those days are gone. Now .. if someone wants to challenge me on an issue they need to come with more than supposition and hypothetical dogma they themselves have helped to create. Like .. don't bring a knife to the gunfight. ;-9 Even the AMA reluctantly reported in a past Journal, the JAMA, that the US death rate from wrongful diagnosis and wrongful prescribing of medications by medical doctors was much higher than the death rate from automobile accidents and weapons .. but do we stop visiting medical doctors and stop driving cars? NO! We do, however, make feeble attempts to deprive honest citizens of their right to bear arms so then only the ones who are dishonest will have weapons. Has anyone on this list .. Martin .. are you listening? EVER heard of a death reported from abuse of ANY essential oil? I have heard of but one and that is not substantiated .. its an old tale that has been around for a long time in the industry .. of a child drinking 3 ml of the oil of Pennyroyal. I even doubt that one because that is one helluva lot of EO and to me it would be difficult to do due to the reflex to throw it up. > >> The use of the leaf is just plain 'duh', since the berries are the > >> source of the active ingredients. > > > >In spite of the adjectives .. I disagree .. and I have the GC results > >from both .. and will post them here. The Fruit (there are NO berries) > >oil is much stronger. > > Berries are the common name for the tiny fruits, have been for > centuries. Check any herbal website. No need to split hairs there. I am not splitting hairs .. I have dozens of posts going back to 1999 where I have tried .. and somewhat succeeded .. in getting people to stop continuing something that was incorrect to begin with .. and I intend to continue trying. The name Chaste Berry Tree is a translation from Greek to English in the first place and it is NOT a tree in the second place so is it wrong to try to set the record straight? > >> Once again, the AT industry is trying to distill everything under > >> the sun, with no idea how or why of *if* it should be used. > > > >Yes Martin Junior. ;-p The distillation of Vitex has been ongoing for > >many years in Turkey and Greece .. primarily in Turkey .. and nobody > >in the damn AT industry knew Jack Schidt about it until Janina > >Sorenson first came up with a batch from Crete .. then it was Butch > >Owen who took over and is still the main supplier. > > I could reword that to say the AT industry is taking anything that is > distilled under the sun, even though it was meant for the perfume > industry, and trying to find medical uses for it. Scary stuff. You could .. and you would NOT be totally wrong to say that .. except in the case of Vitex .. it has not been used in the perfumery industry. > Oh, and I know several others who sell the oils, directly from Janina. > I won't post their names here, so they aren't drawn into this > discussion, since they aren't on the list (to my knowledge.) They might be on this list. ;-p But to the best of my knowledge, Janina has not sent any oils to the USA in many, many years .. many years. IF she has .. she is keeping a low profile cause some folks have tried to contact her and have had no luck. > >> Wackier than the perfume industry, IMO, > > > >I doubt it .. you perfumers put synthetic crap on your skin. > > No, we don't. Don't forget, I have a Natural Perfumery group on . > Natural being the definitive word. I understand what the intent of your list is .. you know I am a member. And it is my understanding that regardless of the intent of the list or your own intent there are many people .. to include some on your own list .. who do use synthetics as well as natural products. But that, like lots of other things in this discussion, has nothing to do with my intent in posting the information on Vitex. > >> since untrained folks are trying to 'treat' people over the internet > > > >Who is the untrained person trying to treat people over the internet? > > Well, I remember Mynou accidently posting to idma a few years ago. She > was selling her 'services' to someone who had asked about a medical > problem. Mynou offered to diagnose and suggest oils over the phone for > only $75/hr. That is only one example. There are many, many more in > the AT world. And herbalism world, don't mean to say unethical > practices are limited to AT practitioners or sellers. OK .. > >I think generalizations are a great way to protest without saying a > >damn thing .. I see it often from certain corners. > > Well, I got specific, since you asked, Butch. See paragraph above. And > generalizations are acceptable, or every post would be screamingly > long. There is nothing wrong with a generalization IF it does not give rise to speculation that the finger is being pointed at someone .. like me. ;-p > >> questioned in depth, or have the training to diagnose. > > > >I would not and have never questioned or diagnosed anyone .. I am NOT > >a medical doctor or even a jack leg aromatherapy practitioner. > > Nobody said you were. Good show. I am a bass fisherman and a bourbon drinker. > >> As far as the ladies in your office -- placebo effect, it's a > >> wonderful thing, no? > > > >Yes Dr. Anya .. but .. did you question and examine and diagnose and > >all that good crap? Generalizations again .. useless bovine excrement! > > I have no idea what you meant by the above sentence. If it was about > the placebo effect, it was just a joke, obviously, -- lighten up. By the time I got down to that statement .. I was way beyond the point of lightening up .. it was sorta personal in that those little gals worked for me for over 8 years so I am a bit over protective .. or maybe even over possessive. Not saying it is right or wrong .. but it was and still is where I am .. so that was my reaction. And .. considering that Bade, a well-educated and mature lady for 27 years .. did not have the slightest understanding of what or why she was sniffing Vitex the first time she tried it .. odds are good that it was not a placebo effect. ;-p She used to miss at least one day .. often two .. of work each month. She never missed them after that time .. and she didn't know what I had asked her to sniff at that time. They all would have sniffed whatever I gave them because I always did that when they had a cold or sore throat or a dozen other minor ailments .. we have far less stringent laws here so I violated no law .. nor was it an ethical violation .. to me. > Unless you want to 'generalize' that anything you don't agree with is > cow crap, which I find offensive. I have explained my position .. and you might still find it offensive. > >> Did they ever try just drinking a tea of the berries, like their > >> ancestors did for generations before them? Nice stuff the tea, but > >> again, not for all women at all times -- if you drink it from menses > >> to ovulation, it will increase blood flow. It should be drunk from > >> ovulation to menses and then stopped. Corpus luteum, and all that, > >> y'know. > >> > >> That pesky ol' FSH/follicles/estrogen cycle that ATs know little or > >> nothing about. > >> Gotta address the corpus luteum and the luteinizing hormone in the > >> second part of the cycle, blah, blah, blah. Now I'm boring myself.. > > > >That makes two people then .. at least. ;-p > > > Didn't you understand the statement I made about the cycles? Glad I > haven't bored about six ladies on this group who have emailed me > privately since I posted, asking for more info. Of course .. I did not understand. ;-p And I am happy that six folks are trying to get more information so they can be better prepared to make informed decisions about taking charge of their own health. > I'm directing them to a list populated by experienced herbalists, > naturopaths, and MDs that practice alternative medicine. Good show .. I hope they gain from that. Maybe other folks here would also like to join that list .. gotta handle you can provide? > Let them be bored there with helpful information :-) Good Lawd Willing they will know what is good info for them and what is not .. and then decide to stay or leave the list. > >> off to have a drink of plain 'ol sweet, filtered water. > > > >Have fun .. but since you are so ready to condemn suggestions on what > >people should NOT try for themselves .. don't you have any wise > >guidance on what they SHOULD try for themselves? Butch > > I sure did. My previous post, pre-vitex, queried the OP on what were > the exact ages/stages of the women she was asking about. I told her not > to buy OTC menopausal blends, they are too scattershot. She was mixng > apples and oranges, asking about PMS and menopause in the same post, so > I was trying to straighten out the query. And, since I don't practice > medicine, or give out recommendations willy-nilly, it's obvious I would > rather err on the side of caution, and point the person in the right > direction to get the proper information. I saw that post later .. it came out after mine. In fact, my series of posts sent a while ago did not come back in series .. nor have all of them come back to me yet .. its a wide ocean that Atlantic. I too do not give advice on such matters .. I have none to give as I'm dumb as a rock in the subject we are discussing .. and that is why I've posted information from folks smarter than me so other folks smarter than me can review it and make their own decisions. > And, I don't sell anything, so I think that makes my 30 years of herbal > education and 25 years of AT study a bit credible. I disagree Anya .. everybody is selling something. If they were not, they would keep their traps shut. Communication is a manner of trying to influence others .. selling our ideas. We all .. including me .. do it and there is no denying it. Selling is not always about money. > Not trying to make a cent off of anyone, just trying to get them to the > right person or herb or right oil to help them. I salute you. > I'm particularly helpful with decongestion blends, pain-relief > recommendations, and the occasional beauty treatment. Good show. > I always have followed the advice of my ethnobotany professor -- be > skeptical, keep your eyes and ears open, and beware of ....... I have always done the same as far as being skeptical .. remember, I'm an ex-cop. And I am as skeptical of the words of those who cry wolf as I am of those who try to sell me a pig in a poke. > (well, I better not say it here, I'll let folks fill in the blanks :-) Right .. y'all watch out for all the general bovine excrement .. if you can figure out what it is. ;-p Butch > Anya > http://member.newsguy.com/~herblady Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 At 01:16 AM 1/15/2004 -0800, you wrote: >Yes Martin Junior. ;-p Two minor corrections, Butch. If, by the above statement you meant to imply that I only got into debunking false or dangerous claims since I've known Martin, that's false. Back in 96 or 97 I frequently posted a 'faq' of sorts on the herbal newsgroup titled " Beware of half-baked herbalists " . I also frequented the alt.aromatherapy group from that time, again, challenging those who posted 'at fairy tale' baloney. Think I heard of Martin first in '99 or so. So Martin may more appropriately be called a brother-in-arms. Oh, I just remembered I gave a lecture on aromatherapy in a Tampa store selling oils, back in '87. Title? Delights and Dangers in Essential Oils. Of course, Martin's scholarly work and publications have surpassed anything I've done, since he's made it the core of his professional life. And bless him for it. The other correction, posted here 'cause I can't find it in your other dozen posts -- vitex can sure be a tree, hence the name Chaste Berry Tree. It can grow to 25', and the branches look very nice when 'cleaned up'. It is valued for its beauty as a small understory tree, and the berries will be called berries until the end of time. Or until folks start calling strawberries strawfruit. That's just the way it is. http://member.newsguy.com/~herblady Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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