OT: Conservation ... Long & Optional

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/22/2003 10:40:52 AM Pacific Standard Time,

butchbsi writes:

 

> An example is the knee-jerk action to stop logging in the Northwest to

> protect a critter that was later shown to need no protection.

 

Okay. Here I go. Showing off my bleeding heart tendancies again...

 

You know that knee jerk reaction... I'd rather see that, than no reaction at

all and have an endangered species wiped out...

 

IF it is then shown that the critter is NOT endangered, then the logging (if

it must) can continue... There are enough critters and plants being wiped out

every day that if a few old growth forests can be saved because of a critter

or two and knee jerk reactions... more power to the critters and to the trees.

 

Tree huggily yours ( you realist you ;-)

 

K

 

Cheers!

Kathleen Petrides

The Woobey Queen

Woobeys: The Loving Touch Therapeutic Pillow

http://www.woobeyworld.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hey Jody,

 

I'll make my reply shorter than usual. ;-p And again repeat that I'm

more into living and dealing with reality than I am with idealism ..

there is room in the world for both kindsa folks. ;-p

 

I did a lot of snipping .. but no sniping. ;-)

 

> And so if everyone buys one brick? Why shouldn't we put our 85 cents

> where our hearts are?

 

No problem .. IF .. EVERYBODY buys a brick. ;-)

 

> Action is usually faster and more immediate than litigation.

 

You dispute this statement later on .. though I think legislation rather

than litigation is the way to effect long-term change .. litigation is A

way to handle problems but court precedent is NOT law nor is it binding,

its just precedent. Legislation stopped folks from killing raptors.

 

> Why make the Greens prove anything more? There's no downside to

> environmental responsibility and defense.

 

There is always a downside to simple solutions for complicated problems.

An example is the knee-jerk action to stop logging in the Northwest to

protect a critter that was later shown to need no protection. If Green

folks had been forced to prove their point then a lotta folks who lost

their all might not have lost anything.

 

> Let's work on amping up the public discourse to hold that loving

> stewardship of our planent is a value that we as a society embrace,

> promote and pay for. There's no reason caring for our planet should be

> cost-free.

 

How do we might kick off this attitude of caring? I mean, folks have

killed all the passenger pigeons, buffalo and condors and some other

critters were damn near wiped out but now protected .. legislation was

inacted .. after careful thought. Methinks waiting for mankind to show

their best side as a group is much like asking that lion to be nice to

the lamb. Not realistic .. idealistic for sure.

 

> Again I respectully disagree that pure water is not a universal problem

 

OK.

 

> IMHO, minimizing or trivializing how much difference one person can

> make is a rationalisation for inaction or non-participation. It's a

> broadly held opinion by tons of folks in the US, in fact most of them!

> I call it seditious inertia! It's what keeps us stuck where we are.

 

How do we get folks off their lazy and carefree asses and make them more

dedicated to put bricks in their toilets? Or for that matter, why don't

we attack some bigger problems .. like drug dealing. I think we could

solve that problem a lot easier by hanging the bastards. Education is

the only solution we have to drug prevention .. besides elimination of

drug dealers .. or imprisoning them for life.

 

> One person ACTING on conviction can make a huge difference. And that is

> reality.

 

Mahatma Ghandi believed that too, but NOTHING has changed between India

and Pakistan. Buddhist Monks used to routinely burn themselves in

public in South Vietnam .. opposing the Nguyen-Ngu regime .. and all

they got from it was smart aleck comments from Madame Ngu that they

should have used kerosene instead of the more expensive gasoline.

 

> Ralph Nader ... created and pushed through the Clean Air and Clean

> Water acts, the two single most important tools environmentalists have

> in fighting the good fight and ones George Bush is rapidly gutting.

 

Avoiding politics .. I'll just comment that here is where you contradict

yourself .. Ralph Nader proved that putting bricks in the toilets was a

good idea and got legislation passed to require them. In a manner of

speaking. He knew there was no way to get voluntary compliance.

 

> Chris is one person using her life as a tool and making a difference.

> So am I. As a farmer, soap and toiletries maker and consumer, I invest

> my money (that Elite washer set was $1500 vs. about $500 for a normal

> set) and my time in those businesses and organizations that hold values

> I want to endorse.

 

Me too .. I spent a good part of my life traveling around the world,

meeting strange and dangerous people .. and neutralizing them.

 

> I've also invested my time. In the 70's, Marcy Benstock, a petite woman,

> decided that for NY State to build its new convention center at Columbus

> Circle and 59th St. would pollute the city even more because it would be a

traffic

> magnet for hundreds of thousands of trucks and cars coming to the shows

> there. Using the Clear Air Act, she and I sued NYC, New York State and the

Army

> Corps of Engineers to force them to build the center on the west side so the

> majority of the convention traffic wouldn't ever have to come in the city. We

> won. And the Javits Center today sits on the West Side at 49th St. and is a

> success. Did we save NYC from all pollution for all time? No but we acted,

made

> a difference on that one thing and it's a long-term, positive difference. And

> that is a reality. Pete Seeger decided he would work to clean up the Hudson

> River. He did it. And the fish came back. A group of activists -- friends and

> I -- planned the first Earth Day back in the 70's and that event is probably

> the one that did more to raise awareness than any other. One person can start

a

> very big ball rolling and when s/he engages hundreds, thousands of others not

> only can big wins be racked up but people's lives are changed as a result of

> their activism.

 

All of the above is admirable .. groups can accomplish much if they have

their stuff together and are persistent .. but one person or a bunch of

neighbors putting bricks in their toilets is a far cry from the efforts

expended by groups in accomplishing the above actions.

 

> Another reality is that green is going mainstream. Praise be!! The

> American consumer is moving more and more in the direction of green

> living. They are flocking to environmentally supermarkets like Wild

> Oats and paying more for sustainably farmed, organic food and organic

> personal care products which are growing at triple the rates of

> chemically laden goods.

 

That's good .. for Americans and others who can afford it. Have any of

you good people seen folks picking through horse and cow manure looking

for bits of undigested grain? Or going through garbage piles picking up

bits and pieces of foods that hadn't yet been consumed by the maggots?

This environmentally friendly organic stuff is NOT going to take care of

the problems of the world .. it is NOT going to feed the people who

don't care what they get to eat as long as it fills their belly and

gives them enough energy to scrounge the dumps again tomorrow. It is

not going to feed the 100% population growth expected in the next 60

years. Poverty is cumulative .. it doesn't get better by feeding

people. And saying we can take care of it by throwing all the weapons

and ammo in a big hole is a pipe dream .. try to sell such an idea to a

group responsible for the planning to head off world famine in a few

years.

 

One of these days .. I'll post some photos on a site and let y'all see

how some of the worst off of the other side lives .. might cause you to

become passionate about something besides organic foods.

 

> The government has implemented National Organic Standards in food. And

> may soon in personal care.

 

Its a luxury I am happy we can afford .. in the Great US of A.

 

> Here's another reality. In Streetsboro, my small little Ohio town, all

> garbarge must be sorted so it can be recycled or it won't be picked up.

 

No people going through it and picking out pieces to take home?

 

> That's environmenntal activism at it's best.

 

Yep.

 

> They demand the sort because they can resell the glass, paper, plastic

> and aluminum so the city makes money and does the good thing. Perfect.

 

We have something similar in Turkey .. every night around 6 the doormen

put out the garbage .. all mixed in plastic bags. Around 7 or so .. and

until the garbage trucks come around at midnight or so, a hoard of

Copcis (garbage collectors) come around pushing hand-made carts on

roller skate wheels. They separate all that good stuff and push the big

carts .. some loaded 6-8 feet high .. to central locations where a truck

comes by and hauls it all to the gypsy camp .. and from there its all

combined and sold for recycling. Estimates are that 350 folks or so

make a decent living doing this in Ankara alone.

 

> That's progress. And there are signs of progress all over if you

> look for them.

 

Yep. Palestinians attacked the Egyptian Foreign Minister while he was

praying in the most holy shrine in Jerusalem today .. American troops

rounded up over 200 terrorists in Iraq to include a Major General who

has been paying mercenaries to attack our troops .. and the Iraqis

demanded the troops stop looking for terrorists and work more on

infrastructure.

Moammer Gadhafi has seen the light and agreed to give up his quest for

Weapons of Mass Destruction .. of course, getting his butt kicked by

George Bush was a motivating factor in his decision. Israeli troops

have nabbed a top Hamas official, Adnan Afour, in the West Bank.

President Lula de Silva says he has a plan for improving the lives of

the MILLIONS of destitute Brazilians .. might even save the Rosewood.

;-p Hundreds are killed in mudslides in the Philippines because the

government has NO housing standards. Red China rejects US criticism of

their handling of religious rights. The Taliban are demanding the

release of 50 imprisoned terrorists in exchange for the lives of two

Indian engineers they have captured .. the US Soldier has been selected

as Time Magazine's " Man of the Year " .. and the US economy and growth is

higher than it has been in two decades. :-P

 

> If we use our lives as tools, if we all do what we can where we can --

> In our homes, in our businesses, in our conversations and interactions

> with friends and colleagues - we can move mountains. That's

> incrementalism and it's powerful and it's real. (It's just not

> widespread ...yet!)

 

Better than sitting on our butts .. I'll vote with you on that.

 

> I've been fighting this fight since the 70's and I am gratified to see

> our US society slowly moving toward environmental responsibility and

> sustainability. I will do all that I can to see that this momentum is

> supported and if possible expanded. That's my passion and it's just as

> deserving of respect as yours for the military is.

 

Agree on the respect part. I didn't disrespect those who used to spit

on me when I came home from Vietnam each time .. I just didn't like

them.

 

Now that the security threat has been raised to a much higher level, and

intelligence has been received indicating that the bad guys are planning

something that will make 11 September look like a Sunday in the park ..

we should put all of our problems in the proper priority.

 

> I would never use a tone or language like this to you, I have too

> much respect for you as an individual: Sorry .. but I'm into realism

 

Jody .. I have no idea what you are talking about. I see no tone being

used that bothers me. If you are talking about what I wrote below, then

you are being overly sensitive cause its not a tone thing .. its my way

of making a point. And realism might be as individual as patriotism.

For sure one man's terrorist is another man's patriot.

 

> > I've done what I could throughout my life to have an IMPACT on events

> > .. more of an impact than just giving me personal warm fuzzies. One

> > dedicated sniper can do far more for the world than all the Hare

> > Krishnas and Rainbow Coalitions standing on the hill holding hands

> > and telling the world to sing in perfect harmony.

 

> That's condescending and labelizing. My word. Butch I know you're a

> better man than that. I've benefited from the knowledge and wisdome

> you've shared on this list. I think you may have achieved Sacred Cow

> and Guru status!!

 

Jody .. I read you saying that if I stand by what I wrote then I'm not

as good a man as you thought I was. So I reckon I'm not what you

thought as I stand by it still. If disagreement with my stand on some

things can detract from my writing on essential oils then its not my

loss as I'm not learning a thing from my writings. I won't comment on

the Guru stuff as I despise such labels .. they're too damned hard to

live up too. ;-p

 

But for sure .. the dudes that shot Lincoln and Kennedy had more impact

on events than we will ever know .. same for those who missed Hitler and

Saddam. If Manson could have been zapped after his first crime spree it

would have been better for a few other folks .. if we could get Osama Yo

Mama lined up twixt some cross hairs we could do far more for the world

than all the activists and politicians will do in the next generation.

 

> Over and out. And on my way back to â green lurker status. No more

> sermons. Promise! But always an activist...

> Jody

 

I have no problem with activists .. have no problems with Martin's stand

on Rosewood either .. I just disagree with him. And on another list

today .. I wrote:

 

" Folks can take positions and become more and more passionate about

their

positions as time passes .. and they can use a lot of emotional appeal

to win the hearts and minds of listeners. That's not so bad .. that's

what social intercourse is all about in the second place.

 

But when someone decides that those who don't share their passions are

inferior .. then they have crossed the line of reason.

 

I presented my case on Mysore Sandalwood and Rosewood. Until I can find

information credible enough to cause me to change my mind .. I choose to

stay with my opinion. But I'll still listen to the opinions of others,

even if they depend on emotional appeal to sell their opinions. "

 

The above is straight from the heart .. as was my comment that:

 

> One dedicated sniper can do far more for the world than all the Hare

> Krishnas and Rainbow Coalitions standing on the hill holding hands

> and telling the world to sing in perfect harmony.

 

I can't recall ever having written anything on this or any other list

that I didn't believe. I would be surprised if folks saw me as being

something other than what I really am .. whatever that is.

 

Y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch