VALIDITY OF NEWLY DEVELOPED SHAM NEEDLE UNIT

[Guest guest]

VALIDITY OF NEWLY DEVELOPED SHAM NEEDLE UNIT: A RANDOMISED

CONTROLLED PRE-CLINICAL TRIAL

 

Jongbae Park, Adrian R White, Clare Stevinson, Edzard Ernst

Dept of Complementary Medicine, School of Postgraduate Medicine &

Health Sciences, University of Exeter, Exeter, UK

 

Background: To test the effectiveness of acupuncture, a sham control

is essential, but so far no sufficiently satisfactory method is

available. A new sham control method has been developed, and

requires validation.

 

Objective: To compare the frequency of acupuncture specific

sensation (`Deqi') between real and sham acupuncture.

 

Methods: The study was designed as a subject-assessor-blind,

randomised controlled trial. Sixty-three healthy, acupuncture naïve,

life-long English speaking adult volunteers were randomly assigned

to either real or sham acupuncture. Acupuncture needling was

performed in either left or right Hegu (LI4) for 30 seconds using a

real needle or the Park Sham Needle. The Park tube was used in both

groups. After receiving acupuncture needling, each subject was

interviewed with structured questions and completed the

questionnaire. The interview procedure was video-recorded, and the

videotapes were sent to acupuncture experts. The primary endpoint

was whether or not the volunteers experienced Deqi judged by three

experts through reviewing the video recording of the interview.

 

Results: Sixty subjects were included in the analysis. The mean (SD)

age was 37.1 years (16.7), and male/female ratio was 14/46. Based on

judgement on 10 randomly selected subjects, the inter-reviewer

reliability (IRR) of all 13 reviewers was 0.52. For 40 (66.67%)

subjects there was complete agreement among all three judges, and

these subjects were included in the primary and secondary analyses.

The relative risk of experiencing Deqi with real acupuncture to that

with sham acupuncture was 15.38. The subjects who received real

acupuncture were significantly more likely to experience Deqi than

those who received sham acupuncture (p=0.000001). There were

significant differences between Deqi and non-Deqi in the following

sensations: Aching (p <0.0001), dull (p = 0.003), heavy (p = 0.045),

hurt (p = 0.002), numb (p = 0.022), radiating (p = 0.001), spreading

(p = 0.002), throbbing (p = 0.011), and tingling (p = 0.039).

 

Conclusion: These findings suggest that the sham control method

produces a negligible amount of specific stimulation, therefore it

can be a bona fide control for controlled acupuncture trials. Wider

usage of this method can be recommended.

 

 

CENTRO DE MEDICINA ORIENTAL

Acupunctura-Shiatsu-Adipolise-TCM

Dr.H.Peter Nussbaumer

351-269827272,+351-967044284

medoriental

[Guest guest]

Peter:

 

Do you know what this Park Sham Needle is? It seems like if you were

stimulating LI4 with anything, a thumb for instance, you would get some

response. Are they saying there was more Deqi with the real needle? I

wonder, did the pain go away with both? Just curious.

 

Anne

 

Dr.H.Peter Nussbaumer wrote:

 

>VALIDITY OF NEWLY DEVELOPED SHAM NEEDLE UNIT: A RANDOMISED

>CONTROLLED PRE-CLINICAL TRIAL

>

>Jongbae Park, Adrian R White, Clare Stevinson, Edzard Ernst

>Dept of Complementary Medicine, School of Postgraduate Medicine &

>Health Sciences, University of Exeter, Exeter, UK

>

>Background: To test the effectiveness of acupuncture, a sham control

>is essential, but so far no sufficiently satisfactory method is

>available. A new sham control method has been developed, and

>requires validation.

>

>Objective: To compare the frequency of acupuncture specific

>sensation (`Deqi') between real and sham acupuncture.

>

>Methods: The study was designed as a subject-assessor-blind,

>randomised controlled trial. Sixty-three healthy, acupuncture naïve,

>life-long English speaking adult volunteers were randomly assigned

>to either real or sham acupuncture. Acupuncture needling was

>performed in either left or right Hegu (LI4) for 30 seconds using a

>real needle or the Park Sham Needle. The Park tube was used in both

>groups. After receiving acupuncture needling, each subject was

>interviewed with structured questions and completed the

>questionnaire. The interview procedure was video-recorded, and the

>videotapes were sent to acupuncture experts. The primary endpoint

>was whether or not the volunteers experienced Deqi judged by three

>experts through reviewing the video recording of the interview.

>

>Results: Sixty subjects were included in the analysis. The mean (SD)

>age was 37.1 years (16.7), and male/female ratio was 14/46. Based on

>judgement on 10 randomly selected subjects, the inter-reviewer

>reliability (IRR) of all 13 reviewers was 0.52. For 40 (66.67%)

>subjects there was complete agreement among all three judges, and

>these subjects were included in the primary and secondary analyses.

>The relative risk of experiencing Deqi with real acupuncture to that

>with sham acupuncture was 15.38. The subjects who received real

>acupuncture were significantly more likely to experience Deqi than

>those who received sham acupuncture (p=0.000001). There were

>significant differences between Deqi and non-Deqi in the following

>sensations: Aching (p <0.0001), dull (p = 0.003), heavy (p = 0.045),

>hurt (p = 0.002), numb (p = 0.022), radiating (p = 0.001), spreading

>(p = 0.002), throbbing (p = 0.011), and tingling (p = 0.039).

>

>Conclusion: These findings suggest that the sham control method

>produces a negligible amount of specific stimulation, therefore it

>can be a bona fide control for controlled acupuncture trials. Wider

>usage of this method can be recommended.

>

>

> CENTRO DE MEDICINA ORIENTAL

> Acupunctura-Shiatsu-Adipolise-TCM

> Dr.H.Peter Nussbaumer

> 351-269827272,+351-967044284

> medoriental

>

>

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>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Anne,

 

The Park Sham needle is one that recoils into the handle when pressed

against the skin.

 

Kind regards,

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM

+44 (0) 208 367 8378

enquiries

www.attiliodalberto.com <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/>

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Anne

Crowley

03 June 2006 19:08

Chinese Medicine

Re: VALIDITY OF NEWLY DEVELOPED SHAM NEEDLE UNIT

 

 

 

Peter:

 

Do you know what this Park Sham Needle is? It seems like if you were

stimulating LI4 with anything, a thumb for instance, you would get some

response. Are they saying there was more Deqi with the real needle? I

wonder, did the pain go away with both? Just curious.

 

Anne

 

Dr.H.Peter Nussbaumer wrote:

 

>VALIDITY OF NEWLY DEVELOPED SHAM NEEDLE UNIT: A RANDOMISED

>CONTROLLED PRE-CLINICAL TRIAL

>

>Jongbae Park, Adrian R White, Clare Stevinson, Edzard Ernst

>Dept of Complementary Medicine, School of Postgraduate Medicine &

>Health Sciences, University of Exeter, Exeter, UK

>

>Background: To test the effectiveness of acupuncture, a sham control

>is essential, but so far no sufficiently satisfactory method is

>available. A new sham control method has been developed, and

>requires validation.

>

>Objective: To compare the frequency of acupuncture specific

>sensation (`Deqi') between real and sham acupuncture.

>

>Methods: The study was designed as a subject-assessor-blind,

>randomised controlled trial. Sixty-three healthy, acupuncture naïve,

>life-long English speaking adult volunteers were randomly assigned

>to either real or sham acupuncture. Acupuncture needling was

>performed in either left or right Hegu (LI4) for 30 seconds using a

>real needle or the Park Sham Needle. The Park tube was used in both

>groups. After receiving acupuncture needling, each subject was

>interviewed with structured questions and completed the

>questionnaire. The interview procedure was video-recorded, and the

>videotapes were sent to acupuncture experts. The primary endpoint

>was whether or not the volunteers experienced Deqi judged by three

>experts through reviewing the video recording of the interview.

>

>Results: Sixty subjects were included in the analysis. The mean (SD)

>age was 37.1 years (16.7), and male/female ratio was 14/46. Based on

>judgement on 10 randomly selected subjects, the inter-reviewer

>reliability (IRR) of all 13 reviewers was 0.52. For 40 (66.67%)

>subjects there was complete agreement among all three judges, and

>these subjects were included in the primary and secondary analyses.

>The relative risk of experiencing Deqi with real acupuncture to that

>with sham acupuncture was 15.38. The subjects who received real

>acupuncture were significantly more likely to experience Deqi than

>those who received sham acupuncture (p=0.000001). There were

>significant differences between Deqi and non-Deqi in the following

>sensations: Aching (p <0.0001), dull (p = 0.003), heavy (p = 0.045),

>hurt (p = 0.002), numb (p = 0.022), radiating (p = 0.001), spreading

>(p = 0.002), throbbing (p = 0.011), and tingling (p = 0.039).

>

>Conclusion: These findings suggest that the sham control method

>produces a negligible amount of specific stimulation, therefore it

>can be a bona fide control for controlled acupuncture trials. Wider

>usage of this method can be recommended.

>

>

> CENTRO DE MEDICINA ORIENTAL

> Acupunctura-Shiatsu-Adipolise-TCM

> Dr.H.Peter Nussbaumer

> 351-269827272,+351-967044284

> medoriental

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

>Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

>

and adjust

accordingly.

>

>

>

>Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

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[Guest guest]

Clever.

 

Anne

 

Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

 

>Anne,

>

>The Park Sham needle is one that recoils into the handle when pressed

>against the skin.

>

>Kind regards,

>

>Attilio D'Alberto

>Doctor of (Beijing, China)

>BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM

>+44 (0) 208 367 8378

>enquiries

>www.attiliodalberto.com <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/>

>

>

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Anne

>Crowley

>03 June 2006 19:08

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: VALIDITY OF NEWLY DEVELOPED SHAM NEEDLE UNIT

>

>

>

>Peter:

>

>Do you know what this Park Sham Needle is? It seems like if you were

>stimulating LI4 with anything, a thumb for instance, you would get some

>response. Are they saying there was more Deqi with the real needle? I

>wonder, did the pain go away with both? Just curious.

>

>Anne

>

>Dr.H.Peter Nussbaumer wrote:

>

>

>

>>VALIDITY OF NEWLY DEVELOPED SHAM NEEDLE UNIT: A RANDOMISED

>>CONTROLLED PRE-CLINICAL TRIAL

>>

>>Jongbae Park, Adrian R White, Clare Stevinson, Edzard Ernst

>>Dept of Complementary Medicine, School of Postgraduate Medicine &

>>Health Sciences, University of Exeter, Exeter, UK

>>

>>Background: To test the effectiveness of acupuncture, a sham control

>>is essential, but so far no sufficiently satisfactory method is

>>available. A new sham control method has been developed, and

>>requires validation.

>>

>>Objective: To compare the frequency of acupuncture specific

>>sensation (`Deqi') between real and sham acupuncture.

>>

>>Methods: The study was designed as a subject-assessor-blind,

>>randomised controlled trial. Sixty-three healthy, acupuncture naïve,

>>life-long English speaking adult volunteers were randomly assigned

>>to either real or sham acupuncture. Acupuncture needling was

>>performed in either left or right Hegu (LI4) for 30 seconds using a

>>real needle or the Park Sham Needle. The Park tube was used in both

>>groups. After receiving acupuncture needling, each subject was

>>interviewed with structured questions and completed the

>>questionnaire. The interview procedure was video-recorded, and the

>>videotapes were sent to acupuncture experts. The primary endpoint

>>was whether or not the volunteers experienced Deqi judged by three

>>experts through reviewing the video recording of the interview.

>>

>>Results: Sixty subjects were included in the analysis. The mean (SD)

>>age was 37.1 years (16.7), and male/female ratio was 14/46. Based on

>>judgement on 10 randomly selected subjects, the inter-reviewer

>>reliability (IRR) of all 13 reviewers was 0.52. For 40 (66.67%)

>>subjects there was complete agreement among all three judges, and

>>these subjects were included in the primary and secondary analyses.

>>The relative risk of experiencing Deqi with real acupuncture to that

>>with sham acupuncture was 15.38. The subjects who received real

>>acupuncture were significantly more likely to experience Deqi than

>>those who received sham acupuncture (p=0.000001). There were

>>significant differences between Deqi and non-Deqi in the following

>>sensations: Aching (p <0.0001), dull (p = 0.003), heavy (p = 0.045),

>>hurt (p = 0.002), numb (p = 0.022), radiating (p = 0.001), spreading

>>(p = 0.002), throbbing (p = 0.011), and tingling (p = 0.039).

>>

>>Conclusion: These findings suggest that the sham control method

>>produces a negligible amount of specific stimulation, therefore it

>>can be a bona fide control for controlled acupuncture trials. Wider

>>usage of this method can be recommended.

>>

>>

>> CENTRO DE MEDICINA ORIENTAL

>> Acupunctura-Shiatsu-Adipolise-TCM

>> Dr.H.Peter Nussbaumer

>> 351-269827272,+351-967044284

>> medoriental

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

>>

>>

>http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

>

>>Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

>>

>>

>http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

>

>>

>>

>>

> and adjust

>accordingly.

>

>

>>Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

>>

>>

>requires prior permission from the author.

>

>

>>Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

>>

>>

>necessary.

>

>

>>

[Guest guest]

So, it's dispersing the point?

 

Kelvin

 

Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto wrote:

>

> Anne,

>

> The Park Sham needle is one that recoils into the handle when pressed

> against the skin.

>

> Kind regards,

>

> Attilio D'Alberto

[Guest guest]

So, what about the superficial Japanese style techniques, what do they do?Mike

W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

:

acupuncturebeverlyhills: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 20:41:32 +0000Subject:

Re: VALIDITY OF NEWLY DEVELOPED SHAM NEEDLE UNITSo, it's dispersing the

point?KelvinChinese Medicine , " Attilio

D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto wrote:>> Anne,> > The Park Sham needle is one

that recoils into the handle when pressed> against the skin.> > Kind regards,>

> Attilio D'AlbertoSubscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese

Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM

Forum Toolbar, click,

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145To change your email

delivery settings, click,

and adjust

accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

the group requires prior permission from the author.Please consider the

environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary.

 

[Guest guest]

I think that a similar device has been used in treatment for some time as I

happen to have something like this. I might have the name wrong but think it is

named teishin. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

:

blazing.valley: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:31:29 -0400Re: TCM -

VALIDITY OF NEWLY DEVELOPED SHAM NEEDLE UNITClever.AnneAttilio D'Alberto

wrote:>Anne,> >The Park Sham needle is one that recoils into the handle when

pressed>against the skin.> >Kind regards,> >Attilio D'Alberto>Doctor of Chinese

Medicine (Beijing, China)>BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM>+44 (0) 208 367

8378>enquirieswww.attiliodalberto.com

<http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> > >>

Chinese Medicine >[Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\

e ] On Behalf Of Anne>Crowley>03 June 2006 19:08>To:

Chinese Medicine >Re: VALIDITY OF

NEWLY DEVELOPED SHAM NEEDLE UNIT>>>>Peter:>>Do you know what this Park Sham

Needle is? It seems like if you were >stimulating LI4 with anything, a thumb

for instance, you would get some >response. Are they saying there was more Deqi

with the real needle? I >wonder, did the pain go away with both? Just

curious.>>Anne>>Dr.H.Peter Nussbaumer wrote:>> >>>VALIDITY OF NEWLY DEVELOPED

SHAM NEEDLE UNIT: A RANDOMISED >>CONTROLLED PRE-CLINICAL TRIAL>>>>Jongbae Park,

Adrian R White, Clare Stevinson, Edzard Ernst>>Dept of Complementary Medicine,

School of Postgraduate Medicine & >>Health Sciences, University of Exeter,

Exeter, UK>>>>Background: To test the effectiveness of acupuncture, a sham

control >>is essential, but so far no sufficiently satisfactory method is

>>available. A new sham control method has been developed, and >>requires

validation.>>>>Objective: To compare the frequency of acupuncture specific

>>sensation (`Deqi') between real and sham acupuncture.>>>>Methods: The study

was designed as a subject-assessor-blind, >>randomised controlled trial.

Sixty-three healthy, acupuncture naïve, >>life-long English speaking adult

volunteers were randomly assigned >>to either real or sham acupuncture.

Acupuncture needling was >>performed in either left or right Hegu (LI4) for 30

seconds using a >>real needle or the Park Sham Needle. The Park tube was used in

both >>groups. After receiving acupuncture needling, each subject was

>>interviewed with structured questions and completed the >>questionnaire. The

interview procedure was video-recorded, and the >>videotapes were sent to

acupuncture experts. The primary endpoint >>was whether or not the volunteers

experienced Deqi judged by three >>experts through reviewing the video recording

of the interview.>>>>Results: Sixty subjects were included in the analysis. The

mean (SD) >>age was 37.1 years (16.7), and male/female ratio was 14/46. Based on

>>judgement on 10 randomly selected subjects, the inter-reviewer >>reliability

(IRR) of all 13 reviewers was 0.52. For 40 (66.67%) >>subjects there was

complete agreement among all three judges, and >>these subjects were included in

the primary and secondary analyses. >>The relative risk of experiencing Deqi

with real acupuncture to that >>with sham acupuncture was 15.38. The subjects

who received real >>acupuncture were significantly more likely to experience

Deqi than >>those who received sham acupuncture (p=0.000001). There were

>>significant differences between Deqi and non-Deqi in the following

>>sensations: Aching (p <0.0001), dull (p = 0.003), heavy (p = 0.045), >>hurt (p

= 0.002), numb (p = 0.022), radiating (p = 0.001), spreading >>(p = 0.002),

throbbing (p = 0.011), and tingling (p = 0.039).>>>>Conclusion: These findings

suggest that the sham control method >>produces a negligible amount of specific

stimulation, therefore it >>can be a bona fide control for controlled

acupuncture trials. Wider >>usage of this method can be recommended.>>>>>>

CENTRO DE MEDICINA ORIENTAL >> Acupunctura-Shiatsu-Adipolise-TCM >>

Dr.H.Peter Nussbaumer >> 351-269827272,+351-967044284 >>

medoriental >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Subscribe to the new FREE online journal

for TCM at Times>> >>>http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com >

>>>Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,>>

>>>http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145> >>>To change your

email delivery settings, click,>>

>>> and

adjust>accordingly. > >>>Messages are the property of the author. Any

duplication outside the group>> >>>requires prior permission from the

author.> >>>Please consider the environment and only print this message if

absolutely>> >>>necessary. > >>>

[Guest guest]

That's my point. Such a needle would disperse over regular points and

tonfy over source points.

I've yet to see a " sham vs real " acupuncture study done. Most are sham

verses sham or in this case real verses real. To really work there

would have to be a treatment to get a person better verses one to make

them worse. Take headaches for example. Get a group of people with

headaches due to liver yin difiency, in one group tonify liver yin

while in the other group tonify liver yang. However making a person

in the second group worse is unethical.

 

Kelvin

 

Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser "

<naturaldoc1 wrote:

>

> So, what about the superficial Japanese style techniques, what do

they do?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

>

[Guest guest]

Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

> Anne,

>

> The Park Sham needle is one that recoils into the handle when pressed

> against the skin.

 

Hi Attilio!

 

What makes it stay in?

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

At 06:16 PM 6/3/2006, " acupuncturebeverlyhills " wrote:

>...

>I've yet to see a " sham vs real " acupuncture study done. ....

 

The big German studies on HA (tension and migraine), published 2005,

with numerous papers (c.f. lead authors K. Linde and D. Melchart),

used sham (aka minimal or alternative) vs real (aka TCM textbook) focally.

 

Maybe you mean something else.

 

 

Here are a couple that came up (selected from a whole bunch) in

Entrez PubMed from a search for " sham acupuncture " :

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=16545747 & query_hl=2 & itool=pubmed_DocSum

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=16523265 & query_hl=2 & itool=pubmed_DocSum

 

 

Also one led by Ted Kapchuk (at least lead author) comparing " sham

needle " and placebo pill!

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=16452103 & query_hl=2 & itool=pubmed_DocSum

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sham vs sham

" 6 predefined basic points "

" However, a relevant minority of participating physicians would have

treated patients differently outside the trial. "

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=16645290 & query_hl=4 & it

ool=pubmed_docsum

Unless they are treating the root and the manifestation and it's

specific for each patient it is sham acupuncture.

 

By the way,one of your links had phsyical therapists with 250 hrs of

acupuncture training in the study.

 

Kelvin

 

Chinese Medicine ,

< wrote:

>

> At 06:16 PM 6/3/2006, " acupuncturebeverlyhills " wrote:

> >...

> >I've yet to see a " sham vs real " acupuncture study done. ....

>

> The big German studies on HA (tension and migraine), published

2005,

> with numerous papers (c.f. lead authors K. Linde and D. Melchart),

> used sham (aka minimal or alternative) vs real (aka TCM textbook)

focally.

>

> Maybe you mean something else.

>

>

> Here are a couple that came up (selected from a whole bunch) in

> Entrez PubMed from a search for " sham acupuncture " :

>

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=16545747 & query_hl=2 & it

ool=pubmed_DocSum

>

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=16523265 & query_hl=2 & it

ool=pubmed_DocSum

>

>

> Also one led by Ted Kapchuk (at least lead author) comparing " sham

> needle " and placebo pill!

>

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=16452103 & query_hl=2 & it

ool=pubmed_DocSum

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

No idea Pete. Personally, I think this whole sham form of acupuncture is not

only unworkable but pointless (no pun intended). Acupuncture should be

tested against the next best form of treatment. This is the normal procedure

when testing new pharmaceutical drugs.

 

Kind regards,

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM

Editor

Times

+44 (0) 208 367 8378

enquiries

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/>

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

petetheisen

04 June 2006 04:56

Chinese Medicine

Re: VALIDITY OF NEWLY DEVELOPED SHAM NEEDLE UNIT

 

 

 

Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

> Anne,

>

> The Park Sham needle is one that recoils into the handle when pressed

> against the skin.

 

Hi Attilio!

 

What makes it stay in?

 

Regards,

 

Pete

 

 

Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

> No idea Pete. Personally, I think this whole sham form of acupuncture is not

> only unworkable but pointless (no pun intended). Acupuncture should be

> tested against the next best form of treatment. This is the normal procedure

> when testing new pharmaceutical drugs.

 

Hi Attilio!

 

When I was in school the very idea of experimental research caused the

Chinese doctors to recoil. " No! " they retorted, " This patient is sick

and needs treatment, not to have someone pretend to treat him! " I

sort-of think that way myself.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

At 11:26 PM 6/3/2006, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

>Sham vs sham

> " 6 predefined basic points "

> " However, a relevant minority of participating physicians would have

>treated patients differently outside the trial. "

>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

>cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=16645290 & query_hl=4 & it

>ool=pubmed_docsum

>Unless they are treating the root and the manifestation and it's

>specific for each patient it is sham acupuncture.

 

That's what I suspected with " maybe you mean something else. " Your

definition is not the same as used in the scientific literature.

Acupuncture is used that context in the sense of a treatment

modality, a technique used in Western medicine. " Treating the root

and the manifestation... specific[ally]... " would seem to be more

about an (your) intrepretation of Chinese medicine.

 

Historically speaking, it can be said that Chinese medicine no longer

" owns " acupuncture.

 

This paper (the URL above) has a limited scope: " This paper aims to

describe the characteristics of physicians and interventions of a

large, multicenter randomized trial of acupuncture for migraine (ART

Migraine) in order to enable acupuncturists to assess the study

interventions. " And it will likely adequately demonstrate its

conclusion: " The treatment protocols for acupuncture and minimal

acupuncture in ART Migraine appeared an adequate compromise in the

specific situation and for the predefined purposes. "

 

 

[Guest guest]

Acupuncture is not just sticking needles in people, no matter who

owns it and nomater what the intention of the study was, it is still

sham acupuncture vs sham acupuncture and therefore useless. (unless

ofcourse you think acupuncture is just sticking needles in people)

 

Kelvin

 

 

Chinese Medicine ,

> That's what I suspected with " maybe you mean something else. " Your

> definition is not the same as used in the scientific literature.

> Acupuncture is used that context in the sense of a treatment

> modality, a technique used in Western medicine. " Treating the root

> and the manifestation... specific[ally]... " would seem to be more

> about an (your) intrepretation of Chinese medicine.

>

> Historically speaking, it can be said that Chinese medicine no

longer

> " owns " acupuncture.

>

> This paper (the URL above) has a limited scope: " This paper aims

to

> describe the characteristics of physicians and interventions of a

> large, multicenter randomized trial of acupuncture for migraine

(ART

> Migraine) in order to enable acupuncturists to assess the study

> interventions. " And it will likely adequately demonstrate its

> conclusion: " The treatment protocols for acupuncture and minimal

> acupuncture in ART Migraine appeared an adequate compromise in the

> specific situation and for the predefined purposes. "

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

More bullroar born of ignorance of Oriental Medicine.

 

JOE

[Guest guest]

I agree 100%.

 

 

On Jun 4, 2006, at 9:55 AM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

 

> Acupuncture is not just sticking needles in people, no matter who

> owns it and nomater what the intention of the study was, it is still

> sham acupuncture vs sham acupuncture and therefore useless. (unless

> ofcourse you think acupuncture is just sticking needles in people)

>

> Kelvin

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Is not the needle the main effecter of change from the western view of

usage?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

: zrosenbe:

Sun, 4 Jun 2006 13:09:02 -0700Re: VALIDITY OF NEWLY DEVELOPED

SHAM NEEDLE UNITI agree 100%.On Jun 4, 2006, at 9:55 AM,

acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:> Acupuncture is not just sticking needles in

people, no matter who> owns it and nomater what the intention of the study was,

it is still> sham acupuncture vs sham acupuncture and therefore useless.

(unless> ofcourse you think acupuncture is just sticking needles in people)>>

Kelvin

[Guest guest]

" It ain't the meat, it's the motion " .

 

(Maria Muldour)

 

 

On Jun 4, 2006, at 7:37 PM, mike Bowser wrote:

 

> Is not the needle the main effecter of change from the western view

> of usage?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Zev,

I agree but was pointing out that much of the so-called research looks at the

needle and not what is really going on nor how we apply it.Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

: zrosenbe:

Sun, 4 Jun 2006 19:55:22 -0700Re: VALIDITY OF NEWLY DEVELOPED

SHAM NEEDLE UNIT " It ain't the meat, it's the motion " .(Maria Muldour)Z'ev

RosenbergOn Jun 4, 2006, at 7:37 PM, mike Bowser wrote:> Is not the needle the

main effecter of change from the western view > of usage?Mike W. Bowser, L

Ac

[Guest guest]

Then they'll miss the boat. You know, the skill and dedication of

the practitioner is what is going to turn people on to Chinese

medicine, not these studies.

 

 

On Jun 5, 2006, at 5:50 AM, mike Bowser wrote:

 

> Zev,

> I agree but was pointing out that much of the so-called research

> looks at the needle and not what is really going on nor how we

> apply it.Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Kelvin,

 

Excuse my ignorance - but how can this sham needle be dispersing

regular points and tonifying source points if it is not even

puncturing the skin? (Leaving the Japanese style of acupuncture aside)

 

TIA

 

Angelo

 

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " acupuncturebeverlyhills

" <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

>

> That's my point. Such a needle would disperse over regular points

and

> tonfy over source points.

> I've yet to see a " sham vs real " acupuncture study done. Most are

sham

> verses sham or in this case real verses real. To really work there

> would have to be a treatment to get a person better verses one to

make

> them worse. Take headaches for example. Get a group of people

with

> headaches due to liver yin difiency, in one group tonify liver yin

> while in the other group tonify liver yang. However making a

person

> in the second group worse is unethical.

>

> Kelvin

>

> Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser "

> <naturaldoc1@> wrote:

> >

> > So, what about the superficial Japanese style techniques, what do

> they do?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

another question is do we need needles to do acupuncture? I guess the best study

would be have half the people go to a trained acupun and half to a untrained one

and than compare outcome.

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Angelo DAlberto

Chinese Medicine

Monday, June 05, 2006 9:00 AM

Re: VALIDITY OF NEWLY DEVELOPED SHAM NEEDLE UNIT

 

 

Hi Kelvin,

 

Excuse my ignorance - but how can this sham needle be dispersing

regular points and tonifying source points if it is not even

puncturing the skin? (Leaving the Japanese style of acupuncture aside)

 

TIA

 

Angelo

 

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " acupuncturebeverlyhills

" <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

>

> That's my point. Such a needle would disperse over regular points

and

> tonfy over source points.

> I've yet to see a " sham vs real " acupuncture study done. Most are

sham

> verses sham or in this case real verses real. To really work there

> would have to be a treatment to get a person better verses one to

make

> them worse. Take headaches for example. Get a group of people

with

> headaches due to liver yin difiency, in one group tonify liver yin

> while in the other group tonify liver yang. However making a

person

> in the second group worse is unethical.

>

> Kelvin

>

> Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser "

> <naturaldoc1@> wrote:

> >

> > So, what about the superficial Japanese style techniques, what do

> they do?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> >

> >

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

If I may be so bold to offer my opinion:

 

There is no such thing as sham acupuncture. Every place on the body is an

acupuncture point whether it is on the channels or not.

 

 

 

Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, PhD

chusauli

 

www.chusaulei.com

 

 

 

 

 

> " " <zrosenbe

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: VALIDITY OF NEWLY DEVELOPED SHAM NEEDLE UNIT

>Mon, 5 Jun 2006 08:09:20 -0700

>

>Then they'll miss the boat. You know, the skill and dedication of

>the practitioner is what is going to turn people on to Chinese

>medicine, not these studies.

>

>

>On Jun 5, 2006, at 5:50 AM, mike Bowser wrote:

>

> > Zev,

> > I agree but was pointing out that much of the so-called research

> > looks at the needle and not what is really going on nor how we

> > apply it.Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It's affecting the enegetic layer above the skin. And it's actually

a technique I use on kids who don't like needles. Works great too.

FYI - Japnese styles like meridian therapy are based on the Chinese

classics so why would yo want to leave them aside?

(It depends on if you believe that acupucture is only about nerves,

nitrous oxide, endorphines or if you believe those things are just

the leaves that blow and acupuncture affects the wind that blows

them.)

 

Kelvin

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Angelo

DAlberto " <angelo_dalberto wrote:

>

> Hi Kelvin,

>

> Excuse my ignorance - but how can this sham needle be dispersing

> regular points and tonifying source points if it is not even

> puncturing the skin? (Leaving the Japanese style of acupuncture

aside)

>

> TIA

>

> Angelo

>