Guest guest Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 Susan Wrote 'It sounds a bit like the patients there would have more of an expectation that insurance would pay for their treatment " In fact that is not the case, Susan. Patients only receive up to $400 per annum for which they can claim. For each treatment they will only receive a very small rebate depending on the health fund, some give more some give less. It is often around $15 or so and treatment in the city and many coastal towns can be $60 or $70.Patients DO know that they will pay the bulk themselves especially if they need long term treatment, long after any rebates have been exhausted. So it is a good idea to move to an area where people will see the VALUE in paying much of the treatment schedule themselves, (can afford to do so) and where the population of an area have a growing consciousness of the benefit they will receive from therapies such as ours. Ray Ford _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Sn00zen Wednesday, May 24, 2006 10:47 AM Chinese Medicine re: Acupuncture in Australia Hi Lea and Sue... Thank you so much for the information on acupuncture in Australia. This is exactly the information I was looking for and I appreciate the candid remarks too. It seems as though the profession in Australia parallels what it is here in the States to a great degree. I was hoping that I could establish a small practice in a coastal town (yeah, I'm a sucker for Aussie beaches) enough to support myself. It sounds a bit like the patients there would have more of an expectation that insurance would pay for their treatment than here. Perhaps? Here in Seattle it all depends on what your insurance is. I had a number of treatments that were paid 100% by my private insurance with no questions asked--it was all driven by the code used to bill. However, I used to work for an insurance company (an HMO) that scrutinized every bill and invented reasons to deny acupunture claims. Mostly because they couldn't understand the scribbled chart notes with no way for a western medical person to understand it. Nowadays we are trained to chart for western 3rd party payor eyes..I know I was. I'm not a purist..I think anyone motivated to learn this medicine should go for it, as long as they do it safely and conscienciously. The proof of the pudding is in the tasting, as they say. But I'd hate to think people were taking a few quickie courses in China and coming over to the US to hang up their shingle. Caveat emptor, I guess. Be well, all Susan No one grows old by living, only by losing interest in living. -Marie Beynon Ray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 Lea states, " I find that the opposite tends to be true, whereby very good practitioners end up having to do a TCM course in Australia so they can practice here, when they were also renal specialists or had PhD's in toxicology etc or something in China, but cant work here in that field. They put my level of skills to shame. " While I can agree with you about skills from a WM situation, we are not MD nor are they LAc. The MD are just as guilty of lacking of proper skill in this as a layperson and should be considered un-educated until they can take a pass a basic exam such as NCCAOM. They deserve respect for what their training is in not blanket coverage to perform anything else they desire. MB _______________ Join the next generation of Hotmail and you could win the adventure of a lifetime http://www.imagine-msn.com/minisites/sweepstakes/mail/register.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2006 Report Share Posted May 25, 2006 Extras only cover is very common in both rural and urban areas. I now practice in Melbourne. For good extras only cover, on average your looking at about $30 AUD per month for singles the last time I checked. Depends on how many extras you get (unlimited general dental vs a set amount etc) and which fund, and how long you have to pay into the fund before you can access treatment for " pre-existing " conditions. (eg optometry and most dental). Regards, Lea. Chinese Medicine , " Ray Ford " <ray wrote: > > My experience is different to yours. This may be because we work in > different places I don't know. The extra's my patients have means exactly > that -extra. An additional service, on top of their hospital cover. I am yet > to meet a patient with ONLY the extras but they might be out there.I think I > was clear when talking about hospitals and cover, that I was referring to > the city, I did not mention rural hospitals as I have no experience of them. > > > Ray Ford > _____ > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of leabun1 > Wednesday, May 24, 2006 4:24 PM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Acupuncture in Australia > > > > If you re-read my post, I said that lots of people choose to > have " extras " cover, which covers them for extras only, not > hospital. If you want hospital cover then you pay a higher premium, > and then you get to go private. And in rural areas, you are not > necessarily better off going private, as private hospitals in rural > areas can have funding and staffing problems that are even worse > than the public sector, which is saying something. > In the city, then yes, private is a great option. > Lea. > > Chinese Medicine , " Ray Ford " > <ray@> wrote: > > > > Lea Wrote, > > > > > > > > " As for private health insurance: Lots of people have private > health > > insurance, especially " extras cover " which means they are not > > covered for hospital expenses and would need to go through the > > public system for that, but they get rebates on " extras " such as > > dental, optometry, natural therapies etc. " > > > > > > > > Hi, Lea's comments above are not completely correct > > > > Private health insurance DOES cover the cost of health care in > hospitals, > > enabling people to choose to have " elective surgery " for which > there is > > often a huge waiting list in the public hospitals. In NSW > hospitals have a > > " private " part for the privately covered health insured patients, > which > > covers them for operations and birthing for example. The private > system is > > the best system as most of the top Doctors work in this area. > Facilities, > > equipment and care are first class, if you can afford it. It is as > simple as > > that . The cost of this insurance is out of the reach of many > Australians > > and many low income earners have to wait on a very long waiting > list for > > operations that the government say are not urgent. The extras Lea > mentioned > > are ON TOP of the usual hospital cover and do cover the things Lea > mentioned > > in her post. > > > > The public system in NSW is a shambles, not enough beds, nurses, > or doctors > > at least in the city and highly populated areas. Along with Law > and order it > > is always the biggest political hot potato here. Acupuncture is > available in > > one public hospital and that is in Liverpool hospital, largely due > to the > > efforts of the Director and members of the local community there. > This was a > > huge breakthrough, something to be applauded. Any suitably trained > > acupuncturist can work there to gain hospital setting experience. > There is a > > long way to go but at least that is a start. > > > > Ray Ford > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > leabun1 > > Tuesday, May 23, 2006 10:44 AM > > Chinese Medicine > > Re: Acupuncture in Australia > > > > > > > > > > Hi again, > > I just thought I'd clarify health insurance rebates in Australia. > > The government medicare system is only available to medical > doctors. > > Of course there is always talk in Victoria because of the new > > government registration of TCM practitioners, of " wouldnt it be > > great if we could bulk-bill patients " but so far it is up there > > with " wouldnt it be great if we could work within the hospital > > system. " Hasnt happened yet, but who knows? Maybe one day.... > > As for private health insurance: Lots of people have private > health > > insurance, especially " extras cover " which means they are not > > covered for hospital expenses and would need to go through the > > public system for that, but they get rebates on " extras " such as > > dental, optometry, natural therapies etc. At the moment the way it > > works is that different health funds agree to accredit > practitioners > > for various modalities, and then your patient pays you up-front > and > > takes their receipt from their treatment to their health funds > > office and gets an over the counter refund of whatever percentage > of > > the treatment they have agreed to in their policy. Some funds > > automatically accredit you when you join an association, some want > > you to jump through hoops and apply to them individually to become > a > > provider. (There is one health fund that automatically accredits > me > > for herbs, but wants me to send them certified copies of all my > > academic transcripts and every other bit of paper you can imagine > > before they will accredit me for acupuncture. Another health fund > > wants the paperwork plus $300 Aust. from me before they will give > my > > patients rebates. In short, they are insurance companies...) > > Osteos, chiros, dentists etc. can give their patients instant > > rebates (so the patient only pays the difference) by using an > > electronic terminal (like an eftpos machine-you swipe their health > > insurance card through) but so far TCM practitioners cant use them > > as we are not government registered Australia wide yet, so the > > companies that offer the electronic terminal system dont want to > > know. > > Oh, and I thought Id add that Australia's much lauded public > health > > system lets us down drastically on dental care. There is a school- > > dentist program for kids, but community dental clinics have 1-2 > year > > waiting lists, so they mostly end up doing emergency extractions, > > more often than not. Although they see kids quicker. Melbourne has > a > > public dental hospital, where my 3 year old son just had a > procedure > > under general anaesthetic where they capped his front teeth and > put > > stainless steel crowns on 6 of his molars. (The enamel didnt form > on > > his baby teeth, we think its amelogenesis imperfecta, as my baby > > teeth were the same.) And we didnt pay anything for that as I have > > a " low income health care card " for myself and the kids, so I cant > > complain. It would have cost about 3k otherwise. (Im not back at > > work full time yet as I have a 6 month old baby, otherwise I > wouldnt > > have been able to do it this way.) > > Sorry about the encyclopaedic responses, but I wouldnt want to > leave > > anything out, now would I? > > Lea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > Medicine Times > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > > and adjust > > accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > the group > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > absolutely > > necessary. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2006 Report Share Posted May 26, 2006 Your absolutely right to point that out because I did not qualify what I was saying, which is that most mainland chinese trained doctors, even if they practice WM, have to take a certain percentage of TCM subjects when studying in China. Which is why they go and brush up on those skills after moving to Australia, because it is an area that they can practice in, when they can no longer practice their WM discipline. Sorry, I was typing too fast and not thinking. I had fellow classmates who fit this description, and they often had a very solid basic background in TCM. Depending on the school attended, a certain amount of study of classical TCM literature was compulsory also. More than what I had to study, anyway. Regards, Lea. Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > Lea states, > " I find that the opposite tends to be true, whereby very good practitioners end up having to do a TCM course in Australia so they can practice here, when they were also renal specialists or had PhD's in toxicology etc or something in China, but cant work here in that field. They put my level of skills to shame. " > > While I can agree with you about skills from a WM situation, we are not MD nor are they LAc. The MD are just as guilty of lacking of proper skill in this as a layperson and should be considered un- educated until they can take a pass a basic exam such as NCCAOM. They deserve respect for what their training is in not blanket coverage to perform anything else they desire. MB > _______________ > Join the next generation of Hotmail and you could win the adventure of a lifetime > http://www.imagine-msn.com/minisites/sweepstakes/mail/register.aspx > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2006 Report Share Posted May 27, 2006 Gordon I'm not keen to continue this discussion much further but... I was quoting a person of authority in the TCM community in Australia. You are right I don't have any experience of TCM education outside Australia and China. It surely must be possible to compare standards of training across countries (and within countries eg. MP acupuncturists in Australia tend to have minimal training in acupuncture/one report quoted 75% as having less than 2 weeks training!) And then the other issue is what you do with your training once you start work (and for many TCM practitioners what they brought to their training from previous careers). If you attend conferences in different countries you must get a sense of where the profession is at within that country - what is participation like? what are the standards of research and discussion,how informed are practitioners of TCM theory?etc? Please I don't know where you live or what your training is so I make not reference to you as an individual but I would like the right to think critically about such issues Sue Chinese Medicine , " Gordon Mullins " <gordon.mullins wrote: > > Sue, > > All I wanted to note was not to make such general comments about an area > that you really have no experience in. > I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy if I made such statement on your > training. I'm not sensitive at all, but I won't have somebody on the other > side of the world knocking something that I have worked hard to achieve. > > Gordon. > > > > On 5/24/06, suecochrane36 <suecochrane wrote: > > > > Now I know why I don't contribute very often to these forums!! to be > > accused of flaming when I pass on such a comment - very sensitive > > participants. If I had the time I would research this further and > > perhaps compare the training lengths and clinical times across nations > > but frankly I abhor nationalism and find this not a very interesting > > topic to invest my time in. I am however very interested in Chinese > > Medicine and how it is practised and how well it is taught anywhere in > > the world. Is it possible to compare national standards? is it useful > > to do so? are there internationally minimum requirements for hours of > > study/supervision in clinic/examinations? should there be? > > > > If my comment was seen as a personal judgement on any individual in > > this forum I apologise. > > > > I am also a student of Australian society and am happy to respond to > > any questions about that as well as TCM in Australia. > > Sue > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese Medicine Times > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > and adjust > > accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > > necessary. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2006 Report Share Posted May 27, 2006 Everyone has a right to be critical and to speak their piece. All info is important if we are to understand ourselves. MB : suecochrane: Sat, 27 May 2006 01:34:47 +0000Re: TCM - Acupuncture in AustraliaGordonI'm not keen to continue this discussion much further but...I was quoting a person of authority in the TCM community in Australia. You are right I don't have any experience of TCM education outside Australia and China. It surely must be possible to compare standards of training across countries (and within countries eg. MP acupuncturists in Australia tend to have minimal training in acupuncture/one report quoted 75% as having less than 2 weeks training!) And then the other issue is what you do with your training once you start work (and for many TCM practitioners what they brought to their training from previous careers). If you attend conferences in different countries you must get a sense of where the profession is at within that country - what is participation like? what are the standards of research and discussion,how informed are practitioners of TCM theory?etc?Please I don't know where you live or what your training is so I make not reference to you as an individual but I would like the right to think critically about such issuesSue--- In Chinese Medicine , " Gordon Mullins " <gordon.mullins wrote:>> Sue,> > All I wanted to note was not to make such general comments about an area> that you really have no experience in.> I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy if I made such statement on your> training. I'm not sensitive at all, but I won't have somebody on the other> side of the world knocking something that I have worked hard to achieve.> > Gordon.> > > > On 5/24/06, suecochrane36 <suecochrane wrote:> >> > Now I know why I don't contribute very often to these forums!! to be> > accused of flaming when I pass on such a comment - very sensitive> > participants. If I had the time I would research this further and> > perhaps compare the training lengths and clinical times across nations> > but frankly I abhor nationalism and find this not a very interesting> > topic to invest my time in. I am however very interested in Chinese> > Medicine and how it is practised and how well it is taught anywhere in> > the world. Is it possible to compare national standards? is it useful> > to do so? are there internationally minimum requirements for hours of> > study/supervision in clinic/examinations? should there be?> >> > If my comment was seen as a personal judgement on any individual in> > this forum I apologise.> >> > I am also a student of Australian society and am happy to respond to> > any questions about that as well as TCM in Australia.> > Sue> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese Medicine Times> > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com> >> > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,> > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145> >> > To change your email delivery settings, click,> > and adjust> > accordingly.> >> > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group> > requires prior permission from the author.> >> > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely> > necessary.> >> >> >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2006 Report Share Posted May 28, 2006 See this one! http://www.uni-bielefeld.de/soz/pdf/AcuWestEur.pdf CENTRO DE MEDICINA ORIENTAL Acupunctura-Shiatsu-Adipolise-TCM Dr.H.Peter Nussbaumer medoriental http://www.medoriental.tk 269 827272 (19h -12h e 15h -19h) ---- leabun1 05/26/06 09:20:08 Chinese Medicine Re: Acupuncture in Australia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2006 Report Share Posted May 28, 2006 very interesting article Oakland, CA 94609 - Dr.H.Peter Nussbaumer Chinese Medicine Sunday, May 28, 2006 12:48 PM Re: Re: Acupuncture in Australia See this one! http://www.uni-bielefeld.de/soz/pdf/AcuWestEur.pdf CENTRO DE MEDICINA ORIENTAL Acupunctura-Shiatsu-Adipolise-TCM Dr.H.Peter Nussbaumer medoriental http://www.medoriental.tk 269 827272 (19h -12h e 15h -19h) ---- leabun1 05/26/06 09:20:08 Chinese Medicine Re: Acupuncture in Australia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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