Guest guest Posted May 21, 2006 Report Share Posted May 21, 2006 Hi all..This message is to lea and anyone who does acupuncture and chinese herbal medicine in Australia. Lea, I very much enjoyed your post and your description of the health care system in Australia. I believe that healthcare system is far superior to our own--and I do believe there is a sense of wellbeing in Australia that is missing from the US. In tihs country you are a slave to your employer so that you can maintain health insurance sometimes. I've had several occasions to spend some time in Sydney and Melbourne because my sister lives there and we are actively pursuing permanent residency for me. The goal being that I would open a private practice in acupuncture and chinese herbology. However, I'm not sure that the type of acupuncture taught and practiced in the States is the same as that in Australia. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed like most of the acupuncturists ffhere are MD's that have gotten training in China. Am I wrong on that? I'm also wondering what you think about practicing acu in Australia differs from the US. Is there a market there? What are the troubles you might experience, if any. I'd love to hear from any other Australian acupuncturists on the list too if you have any ideas or feedback for me on that. Please feel free to email me privately if you wish. Be well... Susan Richey, MAc LAc Seattle, Wa No one grows old by living, only by losing interest in living. -Marie Beynon Ray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2006 Report Share Posted May 21, 2006 I would also like to hear about practicing TCM in Australia , since I was thinking of living there in the future. Guy On 5/21/06, Sn00zen <Sn00zen wrote: > > Hi all..This message is to lea and anyone who does acupuncture and > chinese > herbal medicine in Australia. > > Lea, I very much enjoyed your post and your description of the health > care > system in Australia. I believe that healthcare system is far superior to > our > own--and I do believe there is a sense of wellbeing in Australia that is > missing from the US. In tihs country you are a slave to your employer so > that you > can maintain health insurance sometimes. > > I've had several occasions to spend some time in Sydney and Melbourne > because my sister lives there and we are actively pursuing permanent > residency for > me. The goal being that I would open a private practice in acupuncture > and > chinese herbology. However, I'm not sure that the type of acupuncture > taught > and practiced in the States is the same as that in Australia. Correct me > if > I'm wrong, but it seemed like most of the acupuncturists ffhere are MD's > that > have gotten training in China. Am I wrong on that? I'm also wondering what > you > think about practicing acu in Australia differs from the US. Is there a > market there? What are the troubles you might experience, if any. > > I'd love to hear from any other Australian acupuncturists on the list too > if > you have any ideas or feedback for me on that. Please feel free to email > me > privately if you wish. > > Be well... > > Susan Richey, MAc LAc > Seattle, Wa > > No one grows old by living, only by losing interest in living. > > -Marie Beynon Ray > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2006 Report Share Posted May 21, 2006 Mo too.... Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " Guy Sedan " <guysedan wrote: > > I would also like to hear about practicing TCM in Australia , since I was > thinking of living there in the future. > > Guy > > > On 5/21/06, Sn00zen <Sn00zen wrote: > > > > Hi all..This message is to lea and anyone who does acupuncture and > > chinese > > herbal medicine in Australia. > > > > Lea, I very much enjoyed your post and your description of the health > > care > > system in Australia. I believe that healthcare system is far superior to > > our > > own--and I do believe there is a sense of wellbeing in Australia that is > > missing from the US. In tihs country you are a slave to your employer so > > that you > > can maintain health insurance sometimes. > > > > I've had several occasions to spend some time in Sydney and Melbourne > > because my sister lives there and we are actively pursuing permanent > > residency for > > me. The goal being that I would open a private practice in acupuncture > > and > > chinese herbology. However, I'm not sure that the type of acupuncture > > taught > > and practiced in the States is the same as that in Australia. Correct me > > if > > I'm wrong, but it seemed like most of the acupuncturists ffhere are MD's > > that > > have gotten training in China. Am I wrong on that? I'm also wondering what > > you > > think about practicing acu in Australia differs from the US. Is there a > > market there? What are the troubles you might experience, if any. > > > > I'd love to hear from any other Australian acupuncturists on the list too > > if > > you have any ideas or feedback for me on that. Please feel free to email > > me > > privately if you wish. > > > > Be well... > > > > Susan Richey, MAc LAc > > Seattle, Wa > > > > No one grows old by living, only by losing interest in living. > > > > -Marie Beynon Ray > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2006 Report Share Posted May 22, 2006 Hi there, Im sorry if I gave the impression that acupuncture is MD's here in Australia. Thats very far from the truth. Im not an MD, and even though I studied alot of WM subjects, I didnt get adequate western med. education to practice it. Its not like Austria, where you really do need to be an MD to practice anything but Tuina. I was lucky to have studied a very good degree program, thats all. There are three very good courses from regular Universities for TCM in AUstralia. I went to RMIT (Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology. ) and there is also VUT (Victoria University of Technology) and I believe that the University of Western Sydney has a good program too. All of them offer internships in China, although I think RMIT is the only one that is (or was, anyway) compulsory. RMIT also requires a bachelor of Human Biology or similar as well. There are many other private natural health colleges that teach acupuncture and TCM, and they're courses are government accredited, bachelors programs that are quite good, but they are private, so entry requirements are lower and some people feel that, especially because of the fee structure, that students are " rubber stamped " through the course more easily. Victoria is the only state in Australia that has a Chinese MEdicine registration board, which is a fairly new thing. Unless you graduated from an approved course in Victoria, then you need to sit a board exam, which will cost quite a bit. There is more info on their web site if you wish. www.cmrb.vic.gov.au . Oh, and the grandparenting window is over for registration in Victoria, there was a sunset clause which has now expired, so any new applicants have to sit the exams now. All the other states of AUstralia are " self regulating " which means that anyone can hang out a shingle and practice TCM. The only thing is that if you wish to give your patients health fund rebates if they have private health insurance, you need to be a member of an Association. These are private bodies, like guilds, but their requirements for membership are quite high. See www.anta.com.au (Australian natural therapists association) or www.atms.com.au (Australian traditional medicine society) or look for AACMA (Australian Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine Association) by a google search, as I can never remember their web address off the top of my head. (There is also the NHAA- National Herbalists Association of Australia, but they are fairly small) Also, when you join an association and are accredited as a practitioner of an " ingestive modality " like herbalism, you are issued with a therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA, Australian version of the FDA) certificate of exemption, which means that you can buy " practitioner only " products. The companies themselves tend to ask for this to prove that you are a practitioner. Eg. metagenics etc. ALthough my TCM herbs supplier doesnt ask for it, they just wanted to make sure I was a practitioner, as they dont like to sell to the public at wholesale prices. The TGA certificate also allows you to buy up to 60L of 95% ethanol (neutral cane spirit)per year if you are into making tinctures. Also, as far the Tax office is concerned, Acupuncturists are goods and services tax exempt, the same as doctors, but they have decided that for tax purposes you are only a practitioner if you are a member of an Australia wide professional association. Some doctors do practice acupuncture, although they tend to be " medical acupuncturists " who believe in empirical indications for points. (This point is always used for nausea etc) and dont use TCM differentiation. There are a few, very few, western med trained doctors who bridged into programs (especially RMIT's) to learn TCM, and of my classmates who fit this category, they all were from an Asian background originally. Hope this helps. Lea. Chinese Medicine , " Guy Sedan " <guysedan wrote: > > I would also like to hear about practicing TCM in Australia , since I was > thinking of living there in the future. > > Guy > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 Hi again, I just thought I'd clarify health insurance rebates in Australia. The government medicare system is only available to medical doctors. Of course there is always talk in Victoria because of the new government registration of TCM practitioners, of " wouldnt it be great if we could bulk-bill patients " but so far it is up there with " wouldnt it be great if we could work within the hospital system. " Hasnt happened yet, but who knows? Maybe one day.... As for private health insurance: Lots of people have private health insurance, especially " extras cover " which means they are not covered for hospital expenses and would need to go through the public system for that, but they get rebates on " extras " such as dental, optometry, natural therapies etc. At the moment the way it works is that different health funds agree to accredit practitioners for various modalities, and then your patient pays you up-front and takes their receipt from their treatment to their health funds office and gets an over the counter refund of whatever percentage of the treatment they have agreed to in their policy. Some funds automatically accredit you when you join an association, some want you to jump through hoops and apply to them individually to become a provider. (There is one health fund that automatically accredits me for herbs, but wants me to send them certified copies of all my academic transcripts and every other bit of paper you can imagine before they will accredit me for acupuncture. Another health fund wants the paperwork plus $300 Aust. from me before they will give my patients rebates. In short, they are insurance companies...) Osteos, chiros, dentists etc. can give their patients instant rebates (so the patient only pays the difference) by using an electronic terminal (like an eftpos machine-you swipe their health insurance card through) but so far TCM practitioners cant use them as we are not government registered Australia wide yet, so the companies that offer the electronic terminal system dont want to know. Oh, and I thought Id add that Australia's much lauded public health system lets us down drastically on dental care. There is a school- dentist program for kids, but community dental clinics have 1-2 year waiting lists, so they mostly end up doing emergency extractions, more often than not. Although they see kids quicker. Melbourne has a public dental hospital, where my 3 year old son just had a procedure under general anaesthetic where they capped his front teeth and put stainless steel crowns on 6 of his molars. (The enamel didnt form on his baby teeth, we think its amelogenesis imperfecta, as my baby teeth were the same.) And we didnt pay anything for that as I have a " low income health care card " for myself and the kids, so I cant complain. It would have cost about 3k otherwise. (Im not back at work full time yet as I have a 6 month old baby, otherwise I wouldnt have been able to do it this way.) Sorry about the encyclopaedic responses, but I wouldnt want to leave anything out, now would I? Lea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 I too am in Australia and basically agree with Lea's comments. Like everywhere (I hope) there is contending ideas of what is good acupuncture/TCM practice. The courses Lea mentioned are situated in established universites and students attract financial support to study. Many new graduates struggle to establish a practice and many falter and fall by the wayside. But in most cities there are many successful practitioners. I am located in rural NSW and have the field to myself (I'm exagerating a little - if you move to a coastal area the competition is more fierce). The more recent phenomenon (last 15 years or so) is the number of Chinese practitioners who have relocated to australia and New Zealand - and some of them are excellent, some learnt TCM on the plane over! (I have in fact met Chinese people in Shanghai who were doing a few weeks training in acupuncture because they had succeeded in getting a visa to the US, UK or Australia.) I was recently in a meeting with the President of AACMA and he said that the standard of TCM training and practice in Australia is particularly high when compared to other countries he'd met in his international travels - he was especially thinking of Europe rather than USA. Please if you have specific questions ask. Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 Tut! Tut! Not very nice to make such a generalised statement about training standards, my opinion would be that alot of European Acupuncturists are extremely educated and the TCM school is only a stepping stone. 80% of the TCM practioneers I have meet humble me at their experience and understanding of TCM. I'm sure there are possibly a few bad colleges in the States and Australia also. Most of the people I have meet in TCM are extremely good and highly educated, maybe it is the weaker stuents that never get to practice. Gordon. On 5/23/06, suecochrane36 <suecochrane wrote: > > I too am in Australia and basically agree with Lea's comments. Like > everywhere (I hope) there is contending ideas of what is good > acupuncture/TCM practice. The courses Lea mentioned are situated in > established universites and students attract financial support to > study. Many new graduates struggle to establish a practice and many > falter and fall by the wayside. But in most cities there are many > successful practitioners. I am located in rural NSW and have the > field to myself (I'm exagerating a little - if you move to a coastal > area the competition is more fierce). The more recent phenomenon > (last 15 years or so) is the number of Chinese practitioners who > have relocated to australia and New Zealand - and some of them are > excellent, some learnt TCM on the plane over! (I have in fact met > Chinese people in Shanghai who were doing a few weeks training in > acupuncture because they had succeeded in getting a visa to the US, > UK or Australia.) > I was recently in a meeting with the President of AACMA and he said > that the standard of TCM training and practice in Australia is > particularly high when compared to other countries he'd met in his > international travels - he was especially thinking of Europe rather > than USA. > Please if you have specific questions ask. > Sue Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > necessary. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 leabun1 wrote: <snip> > I have a " low income health care card " for myself and the kids Hi Lea! Isn't this evocative? We devote years of our lives, all of our money and then some to this profession, work our tails off getting established and then we get to be classified as charity cases. I have the US equivalent sort of thing myself. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 Well picked up upon Gordon! Yes, this is naughty Sue. Gossip is not the concern of this forum. We are a professional forum and therefore need to at professionally. I would consider your comments flaming on a mass scale. Please reframe from making unfounded comments, even if you heard them from what you would consider a prominent person. I suppose my training, which resulted in two qualifications, a Bachelor of Medicine from Beijing University of TCM and a BSc (Hons) TCM from Middlesex University in the UK is rubbish then?! Kind regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM +44 (0) 208 367 8378 enquiries www.attiliodalberto.com <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> ----Original Message----- Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Gordon Mullins 23 May 2006 09:43 Chinese Medicine Re: Acupuncture in Australia Tut! Tut! Not very nice to make such a generalised statement about training standards, my opinion would be that alot of European Acupuncturists are extremely educated and the TCM school is only a stepping stone. 80% of the TCM practioneers I have meet humble me at their experience and understanding of TCM. I'm sure there are possibly a few bad colleges in the States and Australia also. Most of the people I have meet in TCM are extremely good and highly educated, maybe it is the weaker stuents that never get to practice. Gordon. On 5/23/06, suecochrane36 <suecochrane wrote: > > I too am in Australia and basically agree with Lea's comments. Like > everywhere (I hope) there is contending ideas of what is good > acupuncture/TCM practice. The courses Lea mentioned are situated in > established universites and students attract financial support to > study. Many new graduates struggle to establish a practice and many > falter and fall by the wayside. But in most cities there are many > successful practitioners. I am located in rural NSW and have the > field to myself (I'm exagerating a little - if you move to a coastal > area the competition is more fierce). The more recent phenomenon > (last 15 years or so) is the number of Chinese practitioners who > have relocated to australia and New Zealand - and some of them are > excellent, some learnt TCM on the plane over! (I have in fact met > Chinese people in Shanghai who were doing a few weeks training in > acupuncture because they had succeeded in getting a visa to the US, > UK or Australia.) > I was recently in a meeting with the President of AACMA and he said > that the standard of TCM training and practice in Australia is > particularly high when compared to other countries he'd met in his > international travels - he was especially thinking of Europe rather > than USA. > Please if you have specific questions ask. > Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 Lea Wrote, " As for private health insurance: Lots of people have private health insurance, especially " extras cover " which means they are not covered for hospital expenses and would need to go through the public system for that, but they get rebates on " extras " such as dental, optometry, natural therapies etc. " Hi, Lea's comments above are not completely correct Private health insurance DOES cover the cost of health care in hospitals, enabling people to choose to have " elective surgery " for which there is often a huge waiting list in the public hospitals. In NSW hospitals have a " private " part for the privately covered health insured patients, which covers them for operations and birthing for example. The private system is the best system as most of the top Doctors work in this area. Facilities, equipment and care are first class, if you can afford it. It is as simple as that . The cost of this insurance is out of the reach of many Australians and many low income earners have to wait on a very long waiting list for operations that the government say are not urgent. The extras Lea mentioned are ON TOP of the usual hospital cover and do cover the things Lea mentioned in her post. The public system in NSW is a shambles, not enough beds, nurses, or doctors at least in the city and highly populated areas. Along with Law and order it is always the biggest political hot potato here. Acupuncture is available in one public hospital and that is in Liverpool hospital, largely due to the efforts of the Director and members of the local community there. This was a huge breakthrough, something to be applauded. Any suitably trained acupuncturist can work there to gain hospital setting experience. There is a long way to go but at least that is a start. Ray Ford Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of leabun1 Tuesday, May 23, 2006 10:44 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Acupuncture in Australia Hi again, I just thought I'd clarify health insurance rebates in Australia. The government medicare system is only available to medical doctors. Of course there is always talk in Victoria because of the new government registration of TCM practitioners, of " wouldnt it be great if we could bulk-bill patients " but so far it is up there with " wouldnt it be great if we could work within the hospital system. " Hasnt happened yet, but who knows? Maybe one day.... As for private health insurance: Lots of people have private health insurance, especially " extras cover " which means they are not covered for hospital expenses and would need to go through the public system for that, but they get rebates on " extras " such as dental, optometry, natural therapies etc. At the moment the way it works is that different health funds agree to accredit practitioners for various modalities, and then your patient pays you up-front and takes their receipt from their treatment to their health funds office and gets an over the counter refund of whatever percentage of the treatment they have agreed to in their policy. Some funds automatically accredit you when you join an association, some want you to jump through hoops and apply to them individually to become a provider. (There is one health fund that automatically accredits me for herbs, but wants me to send them certified copies of all my academic transcripts and every other bit of paper you can imagine before they will accredit me for acupuncture. Another health fund wants the paperwork plus $300 Aust. from me before they will give my patients rebates. In short, they are insurance companies...) Osteos, chiros, dentists etc. can give their patients instant rebates (so the patient only pays the difference) by using an electronic terminal (like an eftpos machine-you swipe their health insurance card through) but so far TCM practitioners cant use them as we are not government registered Australia wide yet, so the companies that offer the electronic terminal system dont want to know. Oh, and I thought Id add that Australia's much lauded public health system lets us down drastically on dental care. There is a school- dentist program for kids, but community dental clinics have 1-2 year waiting lists, so they mostly end up doing emergency extractions, more often than not. Although they see kids quicker. Melbourne has a public dental hospital, where my 3 year old son just had a procedure under general anaesthetic where they capped his front teeth and put stainless steel crowns on 6 of his molars. (The enamel didnt form on his baby teeth, we think its amelogenesis imperfecta, as my baby teeth were the same.) And we didnt pay anything for that as I have a " low income health care card " for myself and the kids, so I cant complain. It would have cost about 3k otherwise. (Im not back at work full time yet as I have a 6 month old baby, otherwise I wouldnt have been able to do it this way.) Sorry about the encyclopaedic responses, but I wouldnt want to leave anything out, now would I? Lea. Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 Attilio, I know there is more to this then just what Sue has stated. In the states, CA to be exact, we had some rather unpleasant issue with a state board member who had created an illegal scam to sell answers to various Asians. He even offered minimal training on how to take the exam in S.Korea. At about the same time, it became obvious that were was a sharp increase in green cards to SE Asias. The US gives preference to those with some kind of specialized training and so acupuncture becomes an easy way to get legal status in America. Many do not practice and then one has to wonder as the largest area of misconduct seems to come from this group. Immigration has partially created what Sue is referring to and of which I saw while waiting to take my CA board exam. I overheard several foreigners asking basic questions that they did not know the answers to. One would hope that this kind of thing is not the norm but the Board member who was found guilty and serving of time, never had his license revoked. Hmmh. Food for thought. MB : attiliodalberto: Tue, 23 May 2006 11:03:59 +0100RE: TCM - Acupuncture in AustraliaWell picked up upon Gordon!Yes, this is naughty Sue. Gossip is not the concern of this forum. We are aprofessional forum and therefore need to at professionally. I would consideryour comments flaming on a mass scale. Please reframe from making unfoundedcomments, even if you heard them from what you would consider a prominentperson.I suppose my training, which resulted in two qualifications, a Bachelor ofMedicine from Beijing University of TCM and a BSc (Hons) TCM from MiddlesexUniversity in the UK is rubbish then?!Kind regards,Attilio D'AlbertoDoctor of (Beijing, China)BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM+44 (0) 208 367 8378enquiries <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> ----Original Message----- Chinese Medicine [Chinese Medicine\ @] On Behalf Of GordonMullins23 May 2006 09:43To: Chinese Medicine: Re: Acupuncture in AustraliaTut! Tut! Not very nice to make such a generalised statement about trainingstandards, my opinion would be that alot of European Acupuncturists areextremely educated and the TCM school is only a stepping stone. 80% ofthe TCM practioneers I have meet humble me at their experience andunderstanding of TCM. I'm sure there are possibly a few bad colleges in theStates and Australia also.Most of the people I have meet in TCM are extremely good and highlyeducated, maybe it is the weaker stuents that never get to practice.Gordon.On 5/23/06, suecochrane36 <suecochrane wrote:>> I too am in Australia and basically agree with Lea's comments. Like> everywhere (I hope) there is contending ideas of what is good> acupuncture/TCM practice. The courses Lea mentioned are situated in> established universites and students attract financial support to> study. Many new graduates struggle to establish a practice and many> falter and fall by the wayside. But in most cities there are many> successful practitioners. I am located in rural NSW and have the> field to myself (I'm exagerating a little - if you move to a coastal> area the competition is more fierce). The more recent phenomenon> (last 15 years or so) is the number of Chinese practitioners who> have relocated to australia and New Zealand - and some of them are> excellent, some learnt TCM on the plane over! (I have in fact met> Chinese people in Shanghai who were doing a few weeks training in> acupuncture because they had succeeded in getting a visa to the US,> UK or Australia.)> I was recently in a meeting with the President of AACMA and he said> that the standard of TCM training and practice in Australia is> particularly high when compared to other countries he'd met in his> international travels - he was especially thinking of Europe rather> than USA.> Please if you have specific questions ask.> Sue[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author.Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 Mike, Your comments relate to issues in the US and has nothing to do with the point I was making. Kind regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM +44 (0) 208 367 8378 enquiries www.attiliodalberto.com <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> ----Original Message----- Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser 23 May 2006 13:28 Chinese Medicine RE: Acupuncture in Australia Attilio, I know there is more to this then just what Sue has stated. In the states, CA to be exact, we had some rather unpleasant issue with a state board member who had created an illegal scam to sell answers to various Asians. He even offered minimal training on how to take the exam in S.Korea. At about the same time, it became obvious that were was a sharp increase in green cards to SE Asias. The US gives preference to those with some kind of specialized training and so acupuncture becomes an easy way to get legal status in America. Many do not practice and then one has to wonder as the largest area of misconduct seems to come from this group. Immigration has partially created what Sue is referring to and of which I saw while waiting to take my CA board exam. I overheard several foreigners asking basic questions that they did not know the answers to. One would hope that this kind of thing is not the norm but the Board member who was found guilty and serving of time, never had his license revoked. Hmmh. Food for thought. MB : attiliodalberto: Tue, 23 May 2006 11:03:59 +0100RE: Acupuncture in AustraliaWell picked up upon Gordon!Yes, this is naughty Sue. Gossip is not the concern of this forum. We are aprofessional forum and therefore need to at professionally. I would consideryour comments flaming on a mass scale. Please reframe from making unfoundedcomments, even if you heard them from what you would consider a prominentperson.I suppose my training, which resulted in two qualifications, a Bachelor ofMedicine from Beijing University of TCM and a BSc (Hons) TCM from MiddlesexUniversity in the UK is rubbish then?!Kind regards,Attilio D'AlbertoDoctor of Chinese Medicine (Beijing, China)BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM+44 (0) 208 367 8378enquiries <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> ----Original Message----- Chinese Medicine [Traditional_Chinese_Medi cine ] On Behalf Of GordonMullins23 May 2006 09:43To: Chinese Medicine: Re: Acupuncture in AustraliaTut! Tut! Not very nice to make such a generalised statement about trainingstandards, my opinion would be that alot of European Acupuncturists areextremely educated and the TCM school is only a stepping stone. 80% ofthe TCM practioneers I have meet humble me at their experience andunderstanding of TCM. I'm sure there are possibly a few bad colleges in theStates and Australia also.Most of the people I have meet in TCM are extremely good and highlyeducated, maybe it is the weaker stuents that never get to practice.Gordon.On 5/23/06, suecochrane36 <suecochrane wrote:>> I too am in Australia and basically agree with Lea's comments. Like> everywhere (I hope) there is contending ideas of what is good> acupuncture/TCM practice. The courses Lea mentioned are situated in> established universites and students attract financial support to> study. Many new graduates struggle to establish a practice and many> falter and fall by the wayside. But in most cities there are many> successful practitioners. I am located in rural NSW and have the> field to myself (I'm exagerating a little - if you move to a coastal> area the competition is more fierce). The more recent phenomenon> (last 15 years or so) is the number of Chinese practitioners who> have relocated to australia and New Zealand - and some of them are> excellent, some learnt TCM on the plane over! (I have in fact met> Chinese people in Shanghai who were doing a few weeks training in> acupuncture because they had succeeded in getting a visa to the US,> UK or Australia.)> I was recently in a meeting with the President of AACMA and he said> that the standard of TCM training and practice in Australia is> particularly high when compared to other countries he'd met in his> international travels - he was especially thinking of Europe rather> than USA.> Please if you have specific questions ask.> Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 Mike, I value the time spent during my study time for my TCM Licence. It was extremely tough and required an 85% rate on all exams over the 3 year period, with an extremely difficult Clical period of 6 months after that. And for somebody to throw a generalised comment like that is quite insulting. Gordon. On 5/23/06, Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto wrote: > > Mike, > > Your comments relate to issues in the US and has nothing to do with the > point I was making. > > > Kind regards, > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM > +44 (0) 208 367 8378 > enquiries > www.attiliodalberto.com <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> > > ----Original Message----- > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike > Bowser > 23 May 2006 13:28 > Chinese Medicine > RE: Acupuncture in Australia > > > > Attilio, > I know there is more to this then just what Sue has stated. In the > states, > CA to be exact, we had some rather unpleasant issue with a state board > member who had created an illegal scam to sell answers to various Asians. > He even offered minimal training on how to take the exam in S.Korea. At > about the same time, it became obvious that were was a sharp increase in > green cards to SE Asias. The US gives preference to those with some kind > of > specialized training and so acupuncture becomes an easy way to get legal > status in America. Many do not practice and then one has to wonder as the > largest area of misconduct seems to come from this group. Immigration has > partially created what Sue is referring to and of which I saw while > waiting > to take my CA board exam. I overheard several foreigners asking basic > questions that they did not know the answers to. One would hope that this > kind of thing is not the norm but the Board member who was found guilty > and > serving of time, never had his license revoked. Hmmh. Food for > thought. > > MB > > > : > attiliodalberto: Tue, 23 May 2006 11:03:59 +0100Subject: > RE: > Acupuncture in AustraliaWell picked up upon Gordon!Yes, this is > naughty Sue. Gossip is not the concern of this forum. We are aprofessional > forum and therefore need to at professionally. I would consideryour > comments > flaming on a mass scale. Please reframe from making unfoundedcomments, > even > if you heard them from what you would consider a prominentperson.I suppose > my training, which resulted in two qualifications, a Bachelor ofMedicine > from Beijing University of TCM and a BSc (Hons) TCM from > MiddlesexUniversity > in the UK is rubbish then?!Kind regards,Attilio D'AlbertoDoctor of Chinese > Medicine (Beijing, China)BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM+44 (0) 208 367 > 8378enquiries > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> ----Original Message----- > Chinese Medicine [ > Traditional_Chinese_Medi > cine ] On Behalf Of GordonMullins23 May 2006 09:43To: > Chinese Medicine: Re: Acupuncture > in AustraliaTut! Tut! Not very nice to make such a generalised statement > about trainingstandards, my opinion would be that alot of European > Acupuncturists areextremely educated and the TCM school is only a stepping > stone. 80% ofthe TCM practioneers I have meet humble me at their > experience > andunderstanding of TCM. I'm sure there are possibly a few bad colleges in > theStates and Australia also.Most of the people I have meet in TCM are > extremely good and highlyeducated, maybe it is the weaker stuents that > never > get to practice.Gordon.On 5/23/06, suecochrane36 <suecochrane > wrote:>> I too am in Australia and basically agree with Lea's comments. > Like> everywhere (I hope) there is contending ideas of what is good> > acupuncture/TCM practice. The courses Lea mentioned are situated in> > established universites and students attract financial support to> study. > Many new graduates struggle to establish a practice and many> falter and > fall by the wayside. But in most cities there are many> successful > practitioners. I am located in rural NSW and have the> field to myself > (I'm > exagerating a little - if you move to a coastal> area the competition is > more fierce). The more recent phenomenon> (last 15 years or so) is the > number of Chinese practitioners who> have relocated to australia and New > Zealand - and some of them are> excellent, some learnt TCM on the plane > over! (I have in fact met> Chinese people in Shanghai who were doing a few > weeks training in> acupuncture because they had succeeded in getting a > visa > to the US,> UK or Australia.)> I was recently in a meeting with the > President of AACMA and he said> that the standard of TCM training and > practice in Australia is> particularly high when compared to other > countries > he'd met in his> international travels - he was especially thinking of > Europe rather> than USA.> Please if you have specific questions ask.> > Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 Mike, If you want to dig out the history please be specific; otherwise, your message gives the impression that what you are describing is still going on in CA. Are you sure that the said boardmember never had his license revoked? You also generalized to SE Asia after mentioning S. Korea. Let it be known that S. Korea is not even part of SE Asia. Mike L. mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: Attilio, I know there is more to this then just what Sue has stated. In the states, CA to be exact, we had some rather unpleasant issue with a state board member who had created an illegal scam to sell answers to various Asians. He even offered minimal training on how to take the exam in S.Korea. At about the same time, it became obvious that were was a sharp increase in green cards to SE Asias. The US gives preference to those with some kind of specialized training and so acupuncture becomes an easy way to get legal status in America. Many do not practice and then one has to wonder as the largest area of misconduct seems to come from this group. Immigration has partially created what Sue is referring to and of which I saw while waiting to take my CA board exam. I overheard several foreigners asking basic questions that they did not know the answers to. One would hope that this kind of thing is not the norm but the Board member who was found guilty and serving of time, never had his license revoked. Hmmh. Food for thought. MB Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 >>Are you sure that the said boardmember never had his license revoked?<< The scoundrel Voluntarily Surrendered License in 1992, as evident from CA gov site. Ancient history. Joe Reid, OMD (If someone calls me doctor these days, I just pick up my current favorite WM text, Griffith's 5-minute Clinical Consult by M. Dambro, and I'm quickly unburdened from the aspersion.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 Hi Lea and Sue... Thank you so much for the information on acupuncture in Australia. This is exactly the information I was looking for and I appreciate the candid remarks too. It seems as though the profession in Australia parallels what it is here in the States to a great degree. I was hoping that I could establish a small practice in a coastal town (yeah, I'm a sucker for Aussie beaches) enough to support myself. It sounds a bit like the patients there would have more of an expectation that insurance would pay for their treatment than here. Perhaps? Here in Seattle it all depends on what your insurance is. I had a number of treatments that were paid 100% by my private insurance with no questions asked--it was all driven by the code used to bill. However, I used to work for an insurance company (an HMO) that scrutinized every bill and invented reasons to deny acupunture claims. Mostly because they couldn't understand the scribbled chart notes with no way for a western medical person to understand it. Nowadays we are trained to chart for western 3rd party payor eyes..I know I was. I'm not a purist..I think anyone motivated to learn this medicine should go for it, as long as they do it safely and conscienciously. The proof of the pudding is in the tasting, as they say. But I'd hate to think people were taking a few quickie courses in China and coming over to the US to hang up their shingle. Caveat emptor, I guess. Be well, all Susan No one grows old by living, only by losing interest in living. -Marie Beynon Ray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 Please re-read my original post for clarity on usage of terms. The info I mentioned was past tense as I had suggested and yes the individual board member did not lose his license. His scheme set up in S. Korea where people could study for a year and qualify to take the CA exam. He also approached other Asians with this as well. I was one of many students that brought a lawsuit against the board for its many improprieties. One member of our group was Asian and had been contacted about this and then threatened with violence if he mentioned anything about it. My initial point was more about a previous post on quality or level of foreign education and that it is very hard to really know if it is legit. There were a couple of Asians that were appointed to the board who left their profitable businesses at a time when CA was expected to have an influx of more Asians. Acupuncture license for a green card anyone? MB : mikeliaw: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:52:22 -0700RE: Acupuncture in AustraliaMike, If you want to dig out the history please be specific; otherwise, your message gives the impression that what you are describing is still going on in CA. Are you sure that the said boardmember never had his license revoked? You also generalized to SE Asia after mentioning S. Korea. Let it be known that S. Korea is not even part of SE Asia. Mike L.mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: Attilio,I know there is more to this then just what Sue has stated. In the states, CA to be exact, we had some rather unpleasant issue with a state board member who had created an illegal scam to sell answers to various Asians. He even offered minimal training on how to take the exam in S.Korea. At about the same time, it became obvious that were was a sharp increase in green cards to SE Asias. The US gives preference to those with some kind of specialized training and so acupuncture becomes an easy way to get legal status in America. Many do not practice and then one has to wonder as the largest area of misconduct seems to come from this group. Immigration has partially created what Sue is referring to and of which I saw while waiting to take my CA board exam. I overheard several foreigners asking basic questions that they did not know the answers to. One would hope that this kind of thing is not the norm but the Board member who was found guilty and serving of time, neverhad his license revoked. Hmmh. Food for thought. MB Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author.Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 Now I know why I don't contribute very often to these forums!! to be accused of flaming when I pass on such a comment - very sensitive participants. If I had the time I would research this further and perhaps compare the training lengths and clinical times across nations but frankly I abhor nationalism and find this not a very interesting topic to invest my time in. I am however very interested in Chinese Medicine and how it is practised and how well it is taught anywhere in the world. Is it possible to compare national standards? is it useful to do so? are there internationally minimum requirements for hours of study/supervision in clinic/examinations? should there be? If my comment was seen as a personal judgement on any individual in this forum I apologise. I am also a student of Australian society and am happy to respond to any questions about that as well as TCM in Australia. Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 Hi there, I had not heard of, or met a Chinese person who was doing a quickie course before coming over. I dont deny that it could be happening though. I find that the opposite tends to be true, whereby very good practitioners end up having to do a TCM course in Australia so they can practice here, when they were also renal specialists or had PhD's in toxicology etc or something in China, but cant work here in that field. They put my level of skills to shame. IMO where you get the problems is with practitioners who had no formal training, but did the " apprenticeship " thing. There was a case several years ago here in Australia where a practitioner of this ilk was needling GB 21 perpindicularly and gave the patient a pneumothorax, whereupon the patient complained of pain etc. So traditionally they had been taught, that if you have a painful point, you needle the same point on the other side of the body. Which they did, and gave the patient a bilateral pneumothorax and they died. This really happened! I heard of practitioners trying to get registered in Victoria during the " grandparenting " phase who were instantly denied registration because the first thing that was asked of them at the interview was " show me how you take the pulse. " and the fingers werent in the right place (index finger on the cun position). Apparantly this is the worst type of peasant mistake and shows you havent been formally trained. As one of my lecturers said " when you go to China, you must do this properly, as they wont blame the student, they will blame the teacher, so DO NOT LOSSEN MY FACE! " (Its a bit if chinglish Ive never forgotten.) Regards, Lea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 At Tue, 23 May 2006 07:14:16 -0000 , " suecochrane36 " <suecochrane wrote: >...he said that the standard of TCM training and practice in Australia is particularly high when compared to other countries he'd met in his international travels - he was especially thinking of Europe rather than USA. The reactions here to this are surprisingly hypersensitive. " Particularly high " could be heard as touting Australian standards as, well, high, without necessarily implying that the others' standard are inferior in any absolute sense. And the statement is qualified by what he'd been exposed to in his particular itinerary. As a teacher once pointed out, if you feel insulted, it can often be informative to examine your reaction and try to learn something from it. Or, from another source, forgiveness is realizing that what you thought happened never really happened at all (except as your own reaction). And really, looking at that statement one sees perhaps some chauvanism (spelling?), but, to my mind, far less flagrant and intentionally disrespectfull degradation of other people's status and ideas than what went back and forth on this forum over last weekend. At Tue, 23 May 2006 22:50:10 +0000 , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 wrote: > >...Acupuncture license for a green card anyone? It's well documented (for instance in Elizabeth Hsu's " Transmission of " ) that TCM is, to a significant extent, considered a profession with a not particularly bright future in the PRC, and many enter it hoping to use it as a stepping stone to getting out of the country to a brighter future in the West. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 If you re-read my post, I said that lots of people choose to have " extras " cover, which covers them for extras only, not hospital. If you want hospital cover then you pay a higher premium, and then you get to go private. And in rural areas, you are not necessarily better off going private, as private hospitals in rural areas can have funding and staffing problems that are even worse than the public sector, which is saying something. In the city, then yes, private is a great option. Lea. Chinese Medicine , " Ray Ford " <ray wrote: > > Lea Wrote, > > > > " As for private health insurance: Lots of people have private health > insurance, especially " extras cover " which means they are not > covered for hospital expenses and would need to go through the > public system for that, but they get rebates on " extras " such as > dental, optometry, natural therapies etc. " > > > > Hi, Lea's comments above are not completely correct > > Private health insurance DOES cover the cost of health care in hospitals, > enabling people to choose to have " elective surgery " for which there is > often a huge waiting list in the public hospitals. In NSW hospitals have a > " private " part for the privately covered health insured patients, which > covers them for operations and birthing for example. The private system is > the best system as most of the top Doctors work in this area. Facilities, > equipment and care are first class, if you can afford it. It is as simple as > that . The cost of this insurance is out of the reach of many Australians > and many low income earners have to wait on a very long waiting list for > operations that the government say are not urgent. The extras Lea mentioned > are ON TOP of the usual hospital cover and do cover the things Lea mentioned > in her post. > > The public system in NSW is a shambles, not enough beds, nurses, or doctors > at least in the city and highly populated areas. Along with Law and order it > is always the biggest political hot potato here. Acupuncture is available in > one public hospital and that is in Liverpool hospital, largely due to the > efforts of the Director and members of the local community there. This was a > huge breakthrough, something to be applauded. Any suitably trained > acupuncturist can work there to gain hospital setting experience. There is a > long way to go but at least that is a start. > > Ray Ford > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of leabun1 > Tuesday, May 23, 2006 10:44 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Acupuncture in Australia > > > > > Hi again, > I just thought I'd clarify health insurance rebates in Australia. > The government medicare system is only available to medical doctors. > Of course there is always talk in Victoria because of the new > government registration of TCM practitioners, of " wouldnt it be > great if we could bulk-bill patients " but so far it is up there > with " wouldnt it be great if we could work within the hospital > system. " Hasnt happened yet, but who knows? Maybe one day.... > As for private health insurance: Lots of people have private health > insurance, especially " extras cover " which means they are not > covered for hospital expenses and would need to go through the > public system for that, but they get rebates on " extras " such as > dental, optometry, natural therapies etc. At the moment the way it > works is that different health funds agree to accredit practitioners > for various modalities, and then your patient pays you up-front and > takes their receipt from their treatment to their health funds > office and gets an over the counter refund of whatever percentage of > the treatment they have agreed to in their policy. Some funds > automatically accredit you when you join an association, some want > you to jump through hoops and apply to them individually to become a > provider. (There is one health fund that automatically accredits me > for herbs, but wants me to send them certified copies of all my > academic transcripts and every other bit of paper you can imagine > before they will accredit me for acupuncture. Another health fund > wants the paperwork plus $300 Aust. from me before they will give my > patients rebates. In short, they are insurance companies...) > Osteos, chiros, dentists etc. can give their patients instant > rebates (so the patient only pays the difference) by using an > electronic terminal (like an eftpos machine-you swipe their health > insurance card through) but so far TCM practitioners cant use them > as we are not government registered Australia wide yet, so the > companies that offer the electronic terminal system dont want to > know. > Oh, and I thought Id add that Australia's much lauded public health > system lets us down drastically on dental care. There is a school- > dentist program for kids, but community dental clinics have 1-2 year > waiting lists, so they mostly end up doing emergency extractions, > more often than not. Although they see kids quicker. Melbourne has a > public dental hospital, where my 3 year old son just had a procedure > under general anaesthetic where they capped his front teeth and put > stainless steel crowns on 6 of his molars. (The enamel didnt form on > his baby teeth, we think its amelogenesis imperfecta, as my baby > teeth were the same.) And we didnt pay anything for that as I have > a " low income health care card " for myself and the kids, so I cant > complain. It would have cost about 3k otherwise. (Im not back at > work full time yet as I have a 6 month old baby, otherwise I wouldnt > have been able to do it this way.) > Sorry about the encyclopaedic responses, but I wouldnt want to leave > anything out, now would I? > Lea. > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese Medicine Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > necessary. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 This is purely anecdotal: One of my classmates had bridged in from an Acupuncture degree that he obtained in London, so that he could learn herbs. He wasnt impressed at all with the standard of acupuncture taught at RMIT in Australia, compared to what he learnt in the UK. We were taught very adequately, and better than a lot of schools, but more time was spent on herbs really, simply because that is kind of how its structured in China. The majority of the hospital departments prescribe herbs, and then there is the acupuncture department. And also because when your trying to cram all of TCM past and present into a degree, somethings gotta give. We werent making mistakes, per se, but we didnt have much finesse or subtlety compared to this guy who had studied solely acupuncture. So myself and other students used to shanghai (no pun intended) this guy in to help us treat patients in the student clinic. I learnt alot from him. There is great education available all over the world, and then I think you can pay to get some cornflake packet qualification from anywhere in the world too, Australia included, that doesnt have any formal regulations or standards. Unfortunately, with regulation comes other problems, such as the government in their infinite wisdom constantly trying to protect us from ourselves. (I have just been reading an updated list of herbs that are now on the banned list for prescribing. So out go's Wu Tou. Making any discussion Ive had with other listers a moot point. I dont use it due to inexperience (and a cowardly streak ), others do. But now apparantly Im not allowed to make that choice for myself, which is a shame.) Regards, Lea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 Sue, I did not understand this flaming remark either, which is why I shared my story about acupuncture and how it might be used as an immigration tool to gain access to America. This, of course, is a bad thing and seems to undermine our system of checks and balances but if it occurs on other shores then we have little way of knowing for sure. I often wondered about ethics as well, as it seems that a large portion of those cited for misconduct and have licenses suspended are Asian nationals. Best of luck and thanks for the dialogue. MB : suecochrane: Wed, 24 May 2006 02:06:06 +0000Re: TCM - Acupuncture in AustraliaNow I know why I don't contribute very often to these forums!! to be accused of flaming when I pass on such a comment - very sensitive participants. If I had the time I would research this further and perhaps compare the training lengths and clinical times across nations but frankly I abhor nationalism and find this not a very interesting topic to invest my time in. I am however very interested in and how it is practised and how well it is taught anywhere in the world. Is it possible to compare national standards? is it useful to do so? are there internationally minimum requirements for hours of study/supervision in clinic/examinations? should there be?If my comment was seen as a personal judgement on any individual in this forum I apologise.I am also a student of Australian society and am happy to respond to any questions about that as well as TCM in Australia.SueSubscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author.Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 My experience is different to yours. This may be because we work in different places I don't know. The extra's my patients have means exactly that -extra. An additional service, on top of their hospital cover. I am yet to meet a patient with ONLY the extras but they might be out there.I think I was clear when talking about hospitals and cover, that I was referring to the city, I did not mention rural hospitals as I have no experience of them. Ray Ford _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of leabun1 Wednesday, May 24, 2006 4:24 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Acupuncture in Australia If you re-read my post, I said that lots of people choose to have " extras " cover, which covers them for extras only, not hospital. If you want hospital cover then you pay a higher premium, and then you get to go private. And in rural areas, you are not necessarily better off going private, as private hospitals in rural areas can have funding and staffing problems that are even worse than the public sector, which is saying something. In the city, then yes, private is a great option. Lea. Chinese Medicine , " Ray Ford " <ray wrote: > > Lea Wrote, > > > > " As for private health insurance: Lots of people have private health > insurance, especially " extras cover " which means they are not > covered for hospital expenses and would need to go through the > public system for that, but they get rebates on " extras " such as > dental, optometry, natural therapies etc. " > > > > Hi, Lea's comments above are not completely correct > > Private health insurance DOES cover the cost of health care in hospitals, > enabling people to choose to have " elective surgery " for which there is > often a huge waiting list in the public hospitals. In NSW hospitals have a > " private " part for the privately covered health insured patients, which > covers them for operations and birthing for example. The private system is > the best system as most of the top Doctors work in this area. Facilities, > equipment and care are first class, if you can afford it. It is as simple as > that . The cost of this insurance is out of the reach of many Australians > and many low income earners have to wait on a very long waiting list for > operations that the government say are not urgent. The extras Lea mentioned > are ON TOP of the usual hospital cover and do cover the things Lea mentioned > in her post. > > The public system in NSW is a shambles, not enough beds, nurses, or doctors > at least in the city and highly populated areas. Along with Law and order it > is always the biggest political hot potato here. Acupuncture is available in > one public hospital and that is in Liverpool hospital, largely due to the > efforts of the Director and members of the local community there. This was a > huge breakthrough, something to be applauded. Any suitably trained > acupuncturist can work there to gain hospital setting experience. There is a > long way to go but at least that is a start. > > Ray Ford > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of leabun1 > Tuesday, May 23, 2006 10:44 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Acupuncture in Australia > > > > > Hi again, > I just thought I'd clarify health insurance rebates in Australia. > The government medicare system is only available to medical doctors. > Of course there is always talk in Victoria because of the new > government registration of TCM practitioners, of " wouldnt it be > great if we could bulk-bill patients " but so far it is up there > with " wouldnt it be great if we could work within the hospital > system. " Hasnt happened yet, but who knows? Maybe one day.... > As for private health insurance: Lots of people have private health > insurance, especially " extras cover " which means they are not > covered for hospital expenses and would need to go through the > public system for that, but they get rebates on " extras " such as > dental, optometry, natural therapies etc. At the moment the way it > works is that different health funds agree to accredit practitioners > for various modalities, and then your patient pays you up-front and > takes their receipt from their treatment to their health funds > office and gets an over the counter refund of whatever percentage of > the treatment they have agreed to in their policy. Some funds > automatically accredit you when you join an association, some want > you to jump through hoops and apply to them individually to become a > provider. (There is one health fund that automatically accredits me > for herbs, but wants me to send them certified copies of all my > academic transcripts and every other bit of paper you can imagine > before they will accredit me for acupuncture. Another health fund > wants the paperwork plus $300 Aust. from me before they will give my > patients rebates. In short, they are insurance companies...) > Osteos, chiros, dentists etc. can give their patients instant > rebates (so the patient only pays the difference) by using an > electronic terminal (like an eftpos machine-you swipe their health > insurance card through) but so far TCM practitioners cant use them > as we are not government registered Australia wide yet, so the > companies that offer the electronic terminal system dont want to > know. > Oh, and I thought Id add that Australia's much lauded public health > system lets us down drastically on dental care. There is a school- > dentist program for kids, but community dental clinics have 1-2 year > waiting lists, so they mostly end up doing emergency extractions, > more often than not. Although they see kids quicker. Melbourne has a > public dental hospital, where my 3 year old son just had a procedure > under general anaesthetic where they capped his front teeth and put > stainless steel crowns on 6 of his molars. (The enamel didnt form on > his baby teeth, we think its amelogenesis imperfecta, as my baby > teeth were the same.) And we didnt pay anything for that as I have > a " low income health care card " for myself and the kids, so I cant > complain. It would have cost about 3k otherwise. (Im not back at > work full time yet as I have a 6 month old baby, otherwise I wouldnt > have been able to do it this way.) > Sorry about the encyclopaedic responses, but I wouldnt want to leave > anything out, now would I? > Lea. > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese Medicine Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > necessary. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 Sue, All I wanted to note was not to make such general comments about an area that you really have no experience in. I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy if I made such statement on your training. I'm not sensitive at all, but I won't have somebody on the other side of the world knocking something that I have worked hard to achieve. Gordon. On 5/24/06, suecochrane36 <suecochrane wrote: > > Now I know why I don't contribute very often to these forums!! to be > accused of flaming when I pass on such a comment - very sensitive > participants. If I had the time I would research this further and > perhaps compare the training lengths and clinical times across nations > but frankly I abhor nationalism and find this not a very interesting > topic to invest my time in. I am however very interested in Chinese > Medicine and how it is practised and how well it is taught anywhere in > the world. Is it possible to compare national standards? is it useful > to do so? are there internationally minimum requirements for hours of > study/supervision in clinic/examinations? should there be? > > If my comment was seen as a personal judgement on any individual in > this forum I apologise. > > I am also a student of Australian society and am happy to respond to > any questions about that as well as TCM in Australia. > Sue > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > necessary. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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