Guest guest Posted May 21, 2006 Report Share Posted May 21, 2006 Hi Nora and all! I just wanted to spare you a long Case reading….but here it goes :-) The issue with the 55 years old is that 5 years ago her periods started to behave as if she was in her menopause and then finally, 4 years ago, stopped. However, the period then returned twice a month a year ago. This bleeding was very excessive (2 weeks out of 4 per month) and she also had problems one week before the first bleeding, which meant that 3 weeks out of every month was were hard for her. Add to this a mental depression and fear connected to bleeding because of a trauma as a child, and you have a woman that did not leave her house even to go shopping next door for every 3 weeks out of 4 each month! The MDs did a total ultrasound check and so on, and she had/has no fibroids or change in her Uterus. But since some MDs said that it was pathological to bleed as much, even though they could not find what was wrong, they suggested (more than suggested, almost demanded) a Hysterectomy. Another MD suggested that she might be in the middle of her menopause, but still wanted to perform a Hysterectomy. So this patient came to me because she wanted all bleeding to stop and to be able to live a good life and not sit at home with anxiety all the time. My strategy has been from the first, to lessen the bleeding gradually and try to improve her mental state to achieve an attitude in her were she can cope with her bleeding mentally and feel ok even if she still has some bleeding. During the treatment stopping the bleeding has been my second priority while my first has been to make her feel comfortable whether or not she has the bleeding. After we have accomplish this goal, which we now have, my goal has shifted to lessen the bleeding as much as possible and maybe to stop it totally. And it is here my question regarding Yunnan Baiyao came in……..would Yunnan Baiyao stop her bleeding ONLY if it was pathological because she was not in her menopause, but if she truly is in her menopause and the bleeding still is natural, while Yunnan Baiyao not stop it? Her CM diagnose is Kid Yin and Yang def with mostly yin def and HE yin def (Kid and He not harmonized). By using Er xiang tang with additional herbs and some blood stopping herbs, I have been able to limit her bleeding to 4 days per month, normal red colour blood in a “normal” amount, without clots and no pain before, during or after. No PMS or tiredness after bleeding. She now has no problems mentally with her bleeding, but because of her age, her energy will be drained in the long run, and the MD still want to perform a Hysterectomy. Our goal has therefore shifted lately to stop her bleeding totally if this is possible without causing any side effects. This last goal is only a goal since I am working on the hypothesis that her bleeding is not natural, but she has in fact already passed her menopause years ago, and once again her was my question regarding Yunnan Baiyao…….Since no one knows if she is in her menopause, I was wondering if Yunnan Baiyao could help me answer that question by showing that she was in her menopause by not stopping the bleeding i.e. the bleeding she now has is natural = she is in her menopause and the bleeding will finish by it self! Many regards and hope you have the strength to read my e-mail!!!!! By the way….SP1 with moxa does not effect her bleeding at all……this we have done since the first day and now it has no effect what so ever.. BR Carl -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Från: För Nora Madden Skickat: den 21 maj 2006 05:59 Till: Ämne: Re: The use of Yunnan Baiyao Hi Carl, A few questions: Do the docs want to perform the hysterectomy because of fibroids? What's their dx, do you know? Does the patient want her periods to be stopped? Or just to be more " normal " (normal frequency, quantity, etc.) What are you diagnosing as the cause of the bleeding? What are the other aspects of her menses (how far apart, color of the blood, are there clots, what is the history, etc.)? How long did you treat the patient before she started bleeding only once a month, instead of twice? Is her cycle regular (in terms of time between periods)? Four days of menstrual flow doesn't sound excessive to me, depending on how heavy it is. I can see (have seen) Yunnan Bai Yao (or some such) being used to stanch " extra " bleeding (e.g. from fibroids), but menstrual " bleeding " isn't really bleeding, right? -that is, it's not normally the kind of traumatic bleeding one usually uses Yunnan Bai Yao for. Indeed, interfering with the normal " sloughing " of the uterine lining/menstrual fluid could presumably cause stasis. In the 25 year old you're imagining, what is the cause of the heavy bleeding? Stasis? Heat? Spleen Qi not holding Blood? Because Yunnan Bai Yao wouldn't really be indicated in all of those cases...indeed, in this case there may be be also be a combination of any/all of those factors. I look forward to hearing others' responses... cheers, Nora On 5/20/06, Carl Henryk Wallmark <carlhenryk.wallmark wrote: > > Hi all > > I have a question regarding the function of Yunnan Baiyao and will > illustrate it by a Case example. > > I treat a patient at the age of 55 with problems at " period " time. With > this I mean that she still has her period and quite a lot of bleeding > for about 5 days. When I started to treat her she had bleedings two > times per month, which now has been limited to once a month. According > to her MD she is in the middle of menopause and for sure has both Kid > yin and yang def. Even though her doctors say that she is in her > menopause, they have told her that she needs to perform a Hysterectomy > because of her bleeding. > > I have therefore tried to limit/end the bleeding with the use of > different blood stopping herbs and for the last 3 months with Yunnan > Baiyao, including the trauma pill. The last bleeding she had, she used > Yunnan Baiyao capsules 4 days before the bleeding was scheduled, and > when the bleeding started took 2 red trauma pills. This stopped the > bleeding for that day, but it started the next day again and continued > for 4 more days. > > So my question is, why does Yunnan Baiyao not stop the bleeding? Might > this be because Yunnan Baiyao is an " intelligent " herb formula and would > only stop the bleeding if it was pathological, in that sense, that if > this woman still is in her menopause and the bleeding is still natural, > Yunnan Baiyao will not stop the bleeding because it is natural? Would > Yunnan Baiyao stop the period bleeding in a healthy 25 years old woman? > What if this 25 years old woman had period bleeding for 10 days, would > Yunnan Baiyao stop the " extra " bleeding and limit the bleeding to a more > " natural " bleeding? > > Bets regards > Carl > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2006 Report Share Posted May 21, 2006 Carl, What trauma happened to her as a child? Do you or have you palpated her abdomen for painful areas? I have lots of questions but want to know what you found. Have you considered using crinis carbonosatis (baked hair)? MB ; Chinese Medicine: carlhenryk.wallmark: Sun, 21 May 2006 12:29:26 +0200TCM - SV: The use of Yunnan BaiyaoHi Nora and all!I just wanted to spare you a long Case reading….but here it goes :-)The issue with the 55 years old is that 5 years ago her periods startedto behave as if she was in her menopause and then finally, 4 years ago,stopped. However, the period then returned twice a month a year ago.This bleeding was very excessive (2 weeks out of 4 per month) and shealso had problems one week before the first bleeding, which meant that 3weeks out of every month was were hard for her. Add to this a mentaldepression and fear connected to bleeding because of a trauma as achild, and you have a woman that did not leave her house even to goshopping next door for every 3 weeks out of 4 each month!The MDs did a total ultrasound check and so on, and she had/has nofibroids or change in her Uterus. But since some MDs said that it waspathological to bleed as much, even though they could not find what waswrong, they suggested (more than suggested, almost demanded) aHysterectomy. Another MD suggested that she might be in the middle ofher menopause, but still wanted to perform a Hysterectomy.So this patient came to me because she wanted all bleeding to stop andto be able to live a good life and not sit at home with anxiety all thetime. My strategy has been from the first, to lessen the bleedinggradually and try to improve her mental state to achieve an attitude inher were she can cope with her bleeding mentally and feel ok even if shestill has some bleeding. During the treatment stopping the bleeding hasbeen my second priority while my first has been to make her feelcomfortable whether or not she has the bleeding. After we haveaccomplish this goal, which we now have, my goal has shifted to lessenthe bleeding as much as possible and maybe to stop it totally. And it ishere my question regarding Yunnan Baiyao came in……..would Yunnan Baiyaostop her bleeding ONLY if it was pathological because she was not in hermenopause, but if she truly is in her menopause and the bleeding stillis natural, while Yunnan Baiyao not stop it?Her CM diagnose is Kid Yin and Yang def with mostly yin def and HE yindef (Kid and He not harmonized). By using Er xiang tang with additionalherbs and some blood stopping herbs, I have been able to limit herbleeding to 4 days per month, normal red colour blood in a “normal”amount, without clots and no pain before, during or after. No PMS ortiredness after bleeding. She now has no problems mentally with herbleeding, but because of her age, her energy will be drained in the longrun, and the MD still want to perform a Hysterectomy. Our goal hastherefore shifted lately to stop her bleeding totally if this ispossible without causing any side effects. This last goal is only a goalsince I am working on the hypothesis that her bleeding is not natural,but she has in fact already passed her menopause years ago, and onceagain her was my question regarding Yunnan Baiyao…….Since no one knowsif she is in her menopause, I was wondering if Yunnan Baiyao could helpme answer that question by showing that she was in her menopause by notstopping the bleeding i.e. the bleeding she now has is natural = she isin her menopause and the bleeding will finish by it self!Many regards and hope you have the strength to read my e-mail!!!!!By the way….SP1 with moxa does not effect her bleeding at all……this wehave done since the first day and now it has no effect what so ever..BRCarl -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----Från: [ ] För Nora MaddenSkickat: den 21 maj 2006 05:59Till: Ämne: Re: The use of Yunnan BaiyaoHi Carl,A few questions:Do the docs want to perform the hysterectomy because of fibroids?What'stheir dx, do you know?Does the patient want her periods to be stopped? Or just to be more " normal " (normal frequency, quantity, etc.)What are you diagnosing as the cause of the bleeding? What are theotheraspects of her menses (how far apart, color of the blood, are thereclots,what is the history, etc.)?How long did you treat the patient before she started bleeding only onceamonth, instead of twice? Is her cycle regular (in terms of time betweenperiods)?Four days of menstrual flow doesn't sound excessive to me, depending onhowheavy it is. I can see (have seen) Yunnan Bai Yao (or some such) beingusedto stanch " extra " bleeding (e.g. from fibroids), but menstrual " bleeding " isn't really bleeding, right? -that is, it's not normally the kind oftraumatic bleeding one usually uses Yunnan Bai Yao for. Indeed,interferingwith the normal " sloughing " of the uterine lining/menstrual fluid couldpresumably cause stasis.In the 25 year old you're imagining, what is the cause of the heavybleeding? Stasis? Heat? Spleen Qi not holding Blood? Because YunnanBaiYao wouldn't really be indicated in all of those cases...indeed, in thiscase there may be be also be a combination of any/all of those factors.I look forward to hearing others' responses...cheers,NoraOn 5/20/06, Carl Henryk Wallmark <carlhenryk.wallmark wrote:>> Hi all>> I have a question regarding the function of Yunnan Baiyao and will> illustrate it by a Case example.>> I treat a patient at the age of 55 with problems at " period " time.With> this I mean that she still has her period and quite a lot of bleeding> for about 5 days. When I started to treat her she had bleedings two> times per month, which now has been limited to once a month. According> to her MD she is in the middle of menopause and for sure has both Kid> yin and yang def. Even though her doctors say that she is in her> menopause, they have told her that she needs to perform a Hysterectomy> because of her bleeding.>> I have therefore tried to limit/end the bleeding with the use of> different blood stopping herbs and for the last 3 months with Yunnan> Baiyao, including the trauma pill. The last bleeding she had, she used> Yunnan Baiyao capsules 4 days before the bleeding was scheduled, and> when the bleeding started took 2 red trauma pills. This stopped the> bleeding for that day, but it started the next day again and continued> for 4 more days.>> So my question is, why does Yunnan Baiyao not stop the bleeding? Might> this be because Yunnan Baiyao is an " intelligent " herb formula andwould> only stop the bleeding if it was pathological, in that sense, that if> this woman still is in her menopause and the bleeding is stillnatural,> Yunnan Baiyao will not stop the bleeding because it is natural? Would> Yunnan Baiyao stop the period bleeding in a healthy 25 years oldwoman?> What if this 25 years old woman had period bleeding for 10 days, would> Yunnan Baiyao stop the " extra " bleeding and limit the bleeding to amore> " natural " bleeding?>> Bets regards> Carl>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]>>>>>>>> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services,including> board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference anda free> discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.>>> <http://www..org> http://www..org> Groups Links>>>>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2006 Report Share Posted May 21, 2006 Carl, Forgive my redundancy by you have still left some questions unanswered: 1. Have her hormone levels been checked and is she still ovulating? 2. You said that you tried moxa on sp1, was that to treat empirical bleeding or to treat cold? You mention that her primary imbalance is yin xu, both heart and kidney, as well as kd yang xu. What are the signs/symptoms that lead you to that conclusion. How do her tongue and pulse manifest? Have you considered spleen qi xu is a possible contributing if not main factor? Are you sure that there are no signs of qi or blood stagnation, even though the ultrasound was negative? As far as Yunnan Bai Yao goes, it treats much more bleeding from stagnation and repletion (excess) rather than from vacuity (deficiency). I know patients who were severely deficient, and tried to stop menstrual bleeding with Yunnan Bai Yao, completely unsuccessfully. One other extremely important hint you give is that as you say that you are trying: " try to improve her mental state to achieve an attitude in her were she can cope with her bleeding mentally and feel ok .... " You are implying that there is a clearly a shen disturbance.Don't underestimate the significance of the trauma she suffered as a child. Trauma and shock can lead to qi & blood stagnation and resulting bl xu. How is her liver pulse and the side of her tongue? Consider working with a well trained therapist in CranioSacral therapy and SomatoEmotional release to release that trauma which she is undoubtedly still holding, while at the same time calming the shen with a formula such as chai hu jia long gu mu li tang. Respectfully, Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac. Carl Henryk Wallmark <carlhenryk.wallmark wrote: Hi Nora and all! I just wanted to spare you a long Case reading….but here it goes :-) The issue with the 55 years old is that 5 years ago her periods started to behave as if she was in her menopause and then finally, 4 years ago, stopped. However, the period then returned twice a month a year ago. This bleeding was very excessive (2 weeks out of 4 per month) and she also had problems one week before the first bleeding, which meant that 3 weeks out of every month was were hard for her. Add to this a mental depression and fear connected to bleeding because of a trauma as a child, and you have a woman that did not leave her house even to go shopping next door for every 3 weeks out of 4 each month! The MDs did a total ultrasound check and so on, and she had/has no fibroids or change in her Uterus. But since some MDs said that it was pathological to bleed as much, even though they could not find what was wrong, they suggested (more than suggested, almost demanded) a Hysterectomy. Another MD suggested that she might be in the middle of her menopause, but still wanted to perform a Hysterectomy. So this patient came to me because she wanted all bleeding to stop and to be able to live a good life and not sit at home with anxiety all the time. My strategy has been from the first, to lessen the bleeding gradually and try to improve her mental state to achieve an attitude in her were she can cope with her bleeding mentally and feel ok even if she still has some bleeding. During the treatment stopping the bleeding has been my second priority while my first has been to make her feel comfortable whether or not she has the bleeding. After we have accomplish this goal, which we now have, my goal has shifted to lessen the bleeding as much as possible and maybe to stop it totally. And it is here my question regarding Yunnan Baiyao came in……..would Yunnan Baiyao stop her bleeding ONLY if it was pathological because she was not in her menopause, but if she truly is in her menopause and the bleeding still is natural, while Yunnan Baiyao not stop it? Her CM diagnose is Kid Yin and Yang def with mostly yin def and HE yin def (Kid and He not harmonized). By using Er xiang tang with additional herbs and some blood stopping herbs, I have been able to limit her bleeding to 4 days per month, normal red colour blood in a “normal” amount, without clots and no pain before, during or after. No PMS or tiredness after bleeding. She now has no problems mentally with her bleeding, but because of her age, her energy will be drained in the long run, and the MD still want to perform a Hysterectomy. Our goal has therefore shifted lately to stop her bleeding totally if this is possible without causing any side effects. This last goal is only a goal since I am working on the hypothesis that her bleeding is not natural, but she has in fact already passed her menopause years ago, and once again her was my question regarding Yunnan Baiyao…….Since no one knows if she is in her menopause, I was wondering if Yunnan Baiyao could help me answer that question by showing that she was in her menopause by not stopping the bleeding i.e. the bleeding she now has is natural = she is in her menopause and the bleeding will finish by it self! Many regards and hope you have the strength to read my e-mail!!!!! By the way….SP1 with moxa does not effect her bleeding at all……this we have done since the first day and now it has no effect what so ever.. BR Carl -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Från: För Nora Madden Skickat: den 21 maj 2006 05:59 Till: Ämne: Re: The use of Yunnan Baiyao Hi Carl, A few questions: Do the docs want to perform the hysterectomy because of fibroids? What's their dx, do you know? Does the patient want her periods to be stopped? Or just to be more " normal " (normal frequency, quantity, etc.) What are you diagnosing as the cause of the bleeding? What are the other aspects of her menses (how far apart, color of the blood, are there clots, what is the history, etc.)? How long did you treat the patient before she started bleeding only once a month, instead of twice? Is her cycle regular (in terms of time between periods)? Four days of menstrual flow doesn't sound excessive to me, depending on how heavy it is. I can see (have seen) Yunnan Bai Yao (or some such) being used to stanch " extra " bleeding (e.g. from fibroids), but menstrual " bleeding " isn't really bleeding, right? -that is, it's not normally the kind of traumatic bleeding one usually uses Yunnan Bai Yao for. Indeed, interfering with the normal " sloughing " of the uterine lining/menstrual fluid could presumably cause stasis. In the 25 year old you're imagining, what is the cause of the heavy bleeding? Stasis? Heat? Spleen Qi not holding Blood? Because Yunnan Bai Yao wouldn't really be indicated in all of those cases...indeed, in this case there may be be also be a combination of any/all of those factors. I look forward to hearing others' responses... cheers, Nora On 5/20/06, Carl Henryk Wallmark <carlhenryk.wallmark wrote: > > Hi all > > I have a question regarding the function of Yunnan Baiyao and will > illustrate it by a Case example. > > I treat a patient at the age of 55 with problems at " period " time. With > this I mean that she still has her period and quite a lot of bleeding > for about 5 days. When I started to treat her she had bleedings two > times per month, which now has been limited to once a month. According > to her MD she is in the middle of menopause and for sure has both Kid > yin and yang def. Even though her doctors say that she is in her > menopause, they have told her that she needs to perform a Hysterectomy > because of her bleeding. > > I have therefore tried to limit/end the bleeding with the use of > different blood stopping herbs and for the last 3 months with Yunnan > Baiyao, including the trauma pill. The last bleeding she had, she used > Yunnan Baiyao capsules 4 days before the bleeding was scheduled, and > when the bleeding started took 2 red trauma pills. This stopped the > bleeding for that day, but it started the next day again and continued > for 4 more days. > > So my question is, why does Yunnan Baiyao not stop the bleeding? Might > this be because Yunnan Baiyao is an " intelligent " herb formula and would > only stop the bleeding if it was pathological, in that sense, that if > this woman still is in her menopause and the bleeding is still natural, > Yunnan Baiyao will not stop the bleeding because it is natural? Would > Yunnan Baiyao stop the period bleeding in a healthy 25 years old woman? > What if this 25 years old woman had period bleeding for 10 days, would > Yunnan Baiyao stop the " extra " bleeding and limit the bleeding to a more > " natural " bleeding? > > Bets regards > Carl > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2006 Report Share Posted May 21, 2006 Hi Carl, I have few questions 1. how is pt's body weight & hight? 2. were her past period always heavy? 3. yunnan bai yao can stop truma bleeding, but not for the long-term taking ( particula heat-bleeding) 4. I did treat this kind of case before the case is yin heat bleeding.., that is way I want to know the weight of this pt.., of course, rule out the cancer chance first. I would like to understand this pt details, if you want to talk more Christine --- Carl Henryk Wallmark <carlhenryk.wallmark wrote: > Hi Nora and all! > > I just wanted to spare you a long Case reading?but > here it goes :-) > > The issue with the 55 years old is that 5 years ago > her periods started > to behave as if she was in her menopause and then > finally, 4 years ago, > stopped. However, the period then returned twice a > month a year ago. > This bleeding was very excessive (2 weeks out of 4 > per month) and she > also had problems one week before the first > bleeding, which meant that 3 > weeks out of every month was were hard for her. Add > to this a mental > depression and fear connected to bleeding because of > a trauma as a > child, and you have a woman that did not leave her > house even to go > shopping next door for every 3 weeks out of 4 each > month! > > The MDs did a total ultrasound check and so on, and > she had/has no > fibroids or change in her Uterus. But since some MDs > said that it was > pathological to bleed as much, even though they > could not find what was > wrong, they suggested (more than suggested, almost > demanded) a > Hysterectomy. Another MD suggested that she might be > in the middle of > her menopause, but still wanted to perform a > Hysterectomy. > > So this patient came to me because she wanted all > bleeding to stop and > to be able to live a good life and not sit at home > with anxiety all the > time. My strategy has been from the first, to lessen > the bleeding > gradually and try to improve her mental state to > achieve an attitude in > her were she can cope with her bleeding mentally and > feel ok even if she > still has some bleeding. During the treatment > stopping the bleeding has > been my second priority while my first has been to > make her feel > comfortable whether or not she has the bleeding. > After we have > accomplish this goal, which we now have, my goal has > shifted to lessen > the bleeding as much as possible and maybe to stop > it totally. And it is > here my question regarding Yunnan Baiyao came > in?..would Yunnan Baiyao > stop her bleeding ONLY if it was pathological > because she was not in her > menopause, but if she truly is in her menopause and > the bleeding still > is natural, while Yunnan Baiyao not stop it? > > Her CM diagnose is Kid Yin and Yang def with mostly > yin def and HE yin > def (Kid and He not harmonized). By using Er xiang > tang with additional > herbs and some blood stopping herbs, I have been > able to limit her > bleeding to 4 days per month, normal red colour > blood in a “normal?> amount, without clots and no pain before, during or > after. No PMS or > tiredness after bleeding. She now has no problems > mentally with her > bleeding, but because of her age, her energy will be > drained in the long > run, and the MD still want to perform a > Hysterectomy. Our goal has > therefore shifted lately to stop her bleeding > totally if this is > possible without causing any side effects. This last > goal is only a goal > since I am working on the hypothesis that her > bleeding is not natural, > but she has in fact already passed her menopause > years ago, and once > again her was my question regarding Yunnan > Baiyao?.Since no one knows > if she is in her menopause, I was wondering if > Yunnan Baiyao could help > me answer that question by showing that she was in > her menopause by not > stopping the bleeding i.e. the bleeding she now has > is natural = she is > in her menopause and the bleeding will finish by it > self! > > Many regards and hope you have the strength to read > my e-mail!!!!! > > By the way?SP1 with moxa does not effect her > bleeding at all?this we > have done since the first day and now it has no > effect what so ever.. > > BR > Carl > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Från: > För Nora > Madden > Skickat: den 21 maj 2006 05:59 > Till: > Ämne: Re: The use of Yunnan Baiyao > > Hi Carl, > > A few questions: > Do the docs want to perform the hysterectomy because > of fibroids? > What's > their dx, do you know? > Does the patient want her periods to be stopped? Or > just to be more > " normal " > (normal frequency, quantity, etc.) > What are you diagnosing as the cause of the > bleeding? What are the > other > aspects of her menses (how far apart, color of the > blood, are there > clots, > what is the history, etc.)? > How long did you treat the patient before she > started bleeding only once > a > month, instead of twice? Is her cycle regular (in > terms of time between > periods)? > > Four days of menstrual flow doesn't sound excessive > to me, depending on > how > heavy it is. I can see (have seen) Yunnan Bai Yao > (or some such) being > used > to stanch " extra " bleeding (e.g. from fibroids), but > menstrual > " bleeding " > isn't really bleeding, right? -that is, it's not > normally the kind of > traumatic bleeding one usually uses Yunnan Bai Yao > for. Indeed, > interfering > with the normal " sloughing " of the uterine > lining/menstrual fluid could > presumably cause stasis. > > In the 25 year old you're imagining, what is the > cause of the heavy > bleeding? Stasis? Heat? Spleen Qi not holding > Blood? Because Yunnan > Bai > Yao wouldn't really be indicated in all of those > cases...indeed, in this > case there may be be also be a combination of > any/all of those factors. > > I look forward to hearing others' responses... > > cheers, > Nora > > > On 5/20/06, Carl Henryk Wallmark > <carlhenryk.wallmark wrote: > > > > Hi all > > > > I have a question regarding the function of Yunnan > Baiyao and will > > illustrate it by a Case example. > > > > I treat a patient at the age of 55 with problems > at " period " time. > With > > this I mean that she still has her period and > quite a lot of bleeding > > for about 5 days. When I started to treat her she > had bleedings two > > times per month, which now has been limited to > once a month. According > > to her MD she is in the middle of menopause and > for sure has both Kid > > yin and yang def. Even though her doctors say that > she is in her > > menopause, they have told her that she needs to > perform === message truncated === Christine Wei Chang, LAc, MTOM BOD & Herbal Medicine Committee American Association of Oriental Medicine (AAOM) 310-951-8698 (cel) panasiaintl " I think, therefore I am. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2006 Report Share Posted May 22, 2006 Well, your fuller case makes the use of Yunan Bai Yao a better choice than before. It's great you were able to stop the bleeding as much as you could. Still I would to a fuller spleen supplementation and Chong/ren disharmony. It may seem silly but I wonder if a BBT or ovulation test would be appropriate to see if any of this is menses related. doug , " Carl Henryk Wallmark " <carlhenryk.wallmark wrote: > > Hi Nora and all! > > I just wanted to spare you a long Case reading?.but here it goes :-) > > The issue with the 55 years old is that 5 years ago her periods started > to behave as if she was in her menopause and then finally, 4 years ago, > stopped. However, the period then returned twice a month a year ago. > This bleeding was very excessive (2 weeks out of 4 per month) and she > also had problems one week before the first bleeding, which meant that 3 > weeks out of every month was were hard for her. Add to this a mental > depression and fear connected to bleeding because of a trauma as a > child, and you have a woman that did not leave her house even to go > shopping next door for every 3 weeks out of 4 each month! > > The MDs did a total ultrasound check and so on, and she had/has no > fibroids or change in her Uterus. But since some MDs said that it was > pathological to bleed as much, even though they could not find what was > wrong, they suggested (more than suggested, almost demanded) a > Hysterectomy. Another MD suggested that she might be in the middle of > her menopause, but still wanted to perform a Hysterectomy. > > So this patient came to me because she wanted all bleeding to stop and > to be able to live a good life and not sit at home with anxiety all the > time. My strategy has been from the first, to lessen the bleeding > gradually and try to improve her mental state to achieve an attitude in > her were she can cope with her bleeding mentally and feel ok even if she > still has some bleeding. During the treatment stopping the bleeding has > been my second priority while my first has been to make her feel > comfortable whether or not she has the bleeding. After we have > accomplish this goal, which we now have, my goal has shifted to lessen > the bleeding as much as possible and maybe to stop it totally. And it is > here my question regarding Yunnan Baiyao came in……..would Yunnan Baiyao > stop her bleeding ONLY if it was pathological because she was not in her > menopause, but if she truly is in her menopause and the bleeding still > is natural, while Yunnan Baiyao not stop it? > > Her CM diagnose is Kid Yin and Yang def with mostly yin def and HE yin > def (Kid and He not harmonized). By using Er xiang tang with additional > herbs and some blood stopping herbs, I have been able to limit her > bleeding to 4 days per month, normal red colour blood in a " normal? > amount, without clots and no pain before, during or after. No PMS or > tiredness after bleeding. She now has no problems mentally with her > bleeding, but because of her age, her energy will be drained in the long > run, and the MD still want to perform a Hysterectomy. Our goal has > therefore shifted lately to stop her bleeding totally if this is > possible without causing any side effects. This last goal is only a goal > since I am working on the hypothesis that her bleeding is not natural, > but she has in fact already passed her menopause years ago, and once > again her was my question regarding Yunnan Baiyao…….Since no one knows > if she is in her menopause, I was wondering if Yunnan Baiyao could help > me answer that question by showing that she was in her menopause by not > stopping the bleeding i.e. the bleeding she now has is natural = she is > in her menopause and the bleeding will finish by it self! > > Many regards and hope you have the strength to read my e-mail!!!!! > > By the way?.SP1 with moxa does not effect her bleeding at all……this we > have done since the first day and now it has no effect what so ever.. > > BR > Carl > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Från: > För Nora Madden > Skickat: den 21 maj 2006 05:59 > Till: > Ämne: Re: The use of Yunnan Baiyao > > Hi Carl, > > A few questions: > Do the docs want to perform the hysterectomy because of fibroids? > What's > their dx, do you know? > Does the patient want her periods to be stopped? Or just to be more > " normal " > (normal frequency, quantity, etc.) > What are you diagnosing as the cause of the bleeding? What are the > other > aspects of her menses (how far apart, color of the blood, are there > clots, > what is the history, etc.)? > How long did you treat the patient before she started bleeding only once > a > month, instead of twice? Is her cycle regular (in terms of time between > periods)? > > Four days of menstrual flow doesn't sound excessive to me, depending on > how > heavy it is. I can see (have seen) Yunnan Bai Yao (or some such) being > used > to stanch " extra " bleeding (e.g. from fibroids), but menstrual > " bleeding " > isn't really bleeding, right? -that is, it's not normally the kind of > traumatic bleeding one usually uses Yunnan Bai Yao for. Indeed, > interfering > with the normal " sloughing " of the uterine lining/menstrual fluid could > presumably cause stasis. > > In the 25 year old you're imagining, what is the cause of the heavy > bleeding? Stasis? Heat? Spleen Qi not holding Blood? Because Yunnan > Bai > Yao wouldn't really be indicated in all of those cases...indeed, in this > case there may be be also be a combination of any/all of those factors. > > I look forward to hearing others' responses... > > cheers, > Nora > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 A 55 year old women with 4 days a bleeding a month could very well be pre-menopausal. If her doctors want to perform a hysterectomy because of this, then you have to look carefully at that. You managed to stop the excessive bleeding which is great. I wouldn't try to perform your own stop bleeding treatments but just treat where she is at now. I think the hormone tests would be very good also to see if that will help you determine the stage of pre or post menopause. doug > > , " Carl Henryk Wallmark " > <carlhenryk.wallmark@> wrote: > > > > I just wanted to spare you a long Case reading?.but here it goes :-) > > After we have > > accomplish this goal, which we now have, my goal has shifted to lessen > > the bleeding as much as possible and maybe to stop it totally. And it is > > here my question regarding Yunnan Baiyao came in……..would Yunnan Baiyao > > stop her bleeding ONLY if it was pathological because she was not in her > > menopause, but if she truly is in her menopause and the bleeding still > > is natural, while Yunnan Baiyao not stop it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 Dear Carl, Let me try a different approach for you to consider: Below are the known ingredients of Yunnan Bai Yao, including their relevant properties (the top one's are the powder and below the line are the ingredients of the Bao Xian Zi (the little red emergency pill): 1. San Qi -- Radix Notoginseng -- Sanchi Ginseng -- Panax notoginseng F.H. Chen ex C.Y. Wu & K.M. Feng--sweet, slightly bitter and warm, liver and stomach; disperses blood stasis, stops bleeding, activates blood relieves pain, reduces swelling. 2. Shan Yao -- Radix or Rhizoma Dioscoreae Oppositae -- Chinese Yam -- Dioscorea batatas Decne. (syns Dioscorea oppositifolia L., Dioscorea opposita Thunb.), fam. Dioscoreaceae --sweet and neutral, liver lung and spleen; tonifies qi, nourishes spleen and stomach yin, tonifies lung qi and yin, treats xiao ke, tonifies kidney yin. 3. Chuan Shan Long -- Radix or Rhizoma Dioscoreae Nipponicae -- Japanese or Wild Yam -- Dioscorea nipponica Makino, or Bi Xie -- Radix or Rhizoma Dioscoreae Hypoglaucae -- Yam, Hypoglauca Rhizome -- Dioscorea hypoglauca Palib., fam. Dioscoreaceae --bitter and cool, liver , lung; dispels wind damp, invigorates blood, opens channels and collaterals, relieves cough and dissolves phlegm. 4. San Yu Cao -- Herb of Clarke -- [botanical identity unknown] --in the zhong yao da ci dan, it lists this rather obscure herb's function as dissipating blood stasis, promoting circulation, stopping bleeding, and reducing swelling.. 5. Lao Guan Cao -- Herba Erodii seu Geranii -- Sweet Geranium, Cranesbill -- Erodium stephanianum Willd., or Geranium wilfordii Maxim., or Geranium maculatum L., or Geranium nepalense Sweet, or Geranium sibiricum L., fam. Geraniaceae. Geranium thunbergii Sieb. & Zucc. ex Lindley & Paxton is also listed as an alternative--bitter, acrid and neutral, liver and large intestine; dispels wind damp and stops diarrhea. 6. Gao Liang Jiang -- Rhizoma Alpiniae Officinari or Rhizoma Galangae Minoris -- Lesser Galangal -- Alpinia officinarum Hance (syn. Languas officinarum Farw.), fam. Zingiberaceae--acrid and hot, spleen and stomach; warms the spleen and stomach to dispel cold. 7. Er Cha -- Pasta Acaciae -- Catechu, Gambier -- produced from Acacia catechu Willd., fam. Leguminosae--bitter astringent and cool, lung; drains dampness and absorbs seepage, generates flesh and stops bleeding, clears heat and dispels phlegm, generates fluids and stops diarrhea, relieves pediatric food stagnation and promotes digestion. ___________________ 1. She Xiang -- Secretio Moschi Moschiferi -- Musk -- a secretion of Moschus moschiferus L., the musk deer--acrid and warm, heart, liver and spleen; opens orifices, awakens shen, unblocks bi zheng, invigorates blood, opens channels and collaterals, dissipates clumps and reduces swelling, relieves pain, induces labor in stillborn. 2. Bai Niu Dan -- Fel Bovis -- Ox-bile, or Xiong Dan -- Fel Ursis -- Bear-bile--bitter and cold, gall bladder, heart and liver; clears heat and eliminates toxins, extinguishes liver wind, clears liver heat and brightens eyes. 3. Bing Pian -- Borneol --acrid, bitter and cool, heart spleen and lung; opens the orifices, revives the shen, clears heat, relieves pain, stops itching. Forgetting the bao xian zi, you will notice that with the exception of san qi and shan yao, the rest of the herbs are quite reduces and bitter. IMVHO, Yunnan Bai yao as a formula would appear to me to be inappropriate for someone who is vacuous or deficient. Where it would appear to be helpful would be in the case of excessive bleeding, but the impression I get from the sources I saw was that it would not be indicated for mild, non-painful, and non-hemorrhaging bleeding. Sincerely, Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac. Carl Henryk Wallmark <carlhenryk.wallmark wrote: Hi Nora and all! I just wanted to spare you a long Case reading….but here it goes :-) The issue with the 55 years old is that 5 years ago her periods started to behave as if she was in her menopause and then finally, 4 years ago, stopped. However, the period then returned twice a month a year ago. This bleeding was very excessive (2 weeks out of 4 per month) and she also had problems one week before the first bleeding, which meant that 3 weeks out of every month was were hard for her. Add to this a mental depression and fear connected to bleeding because of a trauma as a child, and you have a woman that did not leave her house even to go shopping next door for every 3 weeks out of 4 each month! The MDs did a total ultrasound check and so on, and she had/has no fibroids or change in her Uterus. But since some MDs said that it was pathological to bleed as much, even though they could not find what was wrong, they suggested (more than suggested, almost demanded) a Hysterectomy. Another MD suggested that she might be in the middle of her menopause, but still wanted to perform a Hysterectomy. So this patient came to me because she wanted all bleeding to stop and to be able to live a good life and not sit at home with anxiety all the time. My strategy has been from the first, to lessen the bleeding gradually and try to improve her mental state to achieve an attitude in her were she can cope with her bleeding mentally and feel ok even if she still has some bleeding. During the treatment stopping the bleeding has been my second priority while my first has been to make her feel comfortable whether or not she has the bleeding. After we have accomplish this goal, which we now have, my goal has shifted to lessen the bleeding as much as possible and maybe to stop it totally. And it is here my question regarding Yunnan Baiyao came in……..would Yunnan Baiyao stop her bleeding ONLY if it was pathological because she was not in her menopause, but if she truly is in her menopause and the bleeding still is natural, while Yunnan Baiyao not stop it? Her CM diagnose is Kid Yin and Yang def with mostly yin def and HE yin def (Kid and He not harmonized). By using Er xiang tang with additional herbs and some blood stopping herbs, I have been able to limit her bleeding to 4 days per month, normal red colour blood in a “normal” amount, without clots and no pain before, during or after. No PMS or tiredness after bleeding. She now has no problems mentally with her bleeding, but because of her age, her energy will be drained in the long run, and the MD still want to perform a Hysterectomy. Our goal has therefore shifted lately to stop her bleeding totally if this is possible without causing any side effects. This last goal is only a goal since I am working on the hypothesis that her bleeding is not natural, but she has in fact already passed her menopause years ago, and once again her was my question regarding Yunnan Baiyao…….Since no one knows if she is in her menopause, I was wondering if Yunnan Baiyao could help me answer that question by showing that she was in her menopause by not stopping the bleeding i.e. the bleeding she now has is natural = she is in her menopause and the bleeding will finish by it self! Many regards and hope you have the strength to read my e-mail!!!!! By the way….SP1 with moxa does not effect her bleeding at all……this we have done since the first day and now it has no effect what so ever.. BR Carl -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Från: För Nora Madden Skickat: den 21 maj 2006 05:59 Till: Ämne: Re: The use of Yunnan Baiyao Hi Carl, A few questions: Do the docs want to perform the hysterectomy because of fibroids? What's their dx, do you know? Does the patient want her periods to be stopped? Or just to be more " normal " (normal frequency, quantity, etc.) What are you diagnosing as the cause of the bleeding? What are the other aspects of her menses (how far apart, color of the blood, are there clots, what is the history, etc.)? How long did you treat the patient before she started bleeding only once a month, instead of twice? Is her cycle regular (in terms of time between periods)? Four days of menstrual flow doesn't sound excessive to me, depending on how heavy it is. I can see (have seen) Yunnan Bai Yao (or some such) being used to stanch " extra " bleeding (e.g. from fibroids), but menstrual " bleeding " isn't really bleeding, right? -that is, it's not normally the kind of traumatic bleeding one usually uses Yunnan Bai Yao for. Indeed, interfering with the normal " sloughing " of the uterine lining/menstrual fluid could presumably cause stasis. In the 25 year old you're imagining, what is the cause of the heavy bleeding? Stasis? Heat? Spleen Qi not holding Blood? Because Yunnan Bai Yao wouldn't really be indicated in all of those cases...indeed, in this case there may be be also be a combination of any/all of those factors. I look forward to hearing others' responses... cheers, Nora On 5/20/06, Carl Henryk Wallmark <carlhenryk.wallmark wrote: > > Hi all > > I have a question regarding the function of Yunnan Baiyao and will > illustrate it by a Case example. > > I treat a patient at the age of 55 with problems at " period " time. With > this I mean that she still has her period and quite a lot of bleeding > for about 5 days. When I started to treat her she had bleedings two > times per month, which now has been limited to once a month. According > to her MD she is in the middle of menopause and for sure has both Kid > yin and yang def. Even though her doctors say that she is in her > menopause, they have told her that she needs to perform a Hysterectomy > because of her bleeding. > > I have therefore tried to limit/end the bleeding with the use of > different blood stopping herbs and for the last 3 months with Yunnan > Baiyao, including the trauma pill. The last bleeding she had, she used > Yunnan Baiyao capsules 4 days before the bleeding was scheduled, and > when the bleeding started took 2 red trauma pills. This stopped the > bleeding for that day, but it started the next day again and continued > for 4 more days. > > So my question is, why does Yunnan Baiyao not stop the bleeding? Might > this be because Yunnan Baiyao is an " intelligent " herb formula and would > only stop the bleeding if it was pathological, in that sense, that if > this woman still is in her menopause and the bleeding is still natural, > Yunnan Baiyao will not stop the bleeding because it is natural? Would > Yunnan Baiyao stop the period bleeding in a healthy 25 years old woman? > What if this 25 years old woman had period bleeding for 10 days, would > Yunnan Baiyao stop the " extra " bleeding and limit the bleeding to a more > " natural " bleeding? > > Bets regards > Carl > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 , yehuda frischman < wrote: > Below are the known ingredients of Yunnan Bai Yao, including their relevant properties (the top one's are the powder and below the line are the ingredients of the Bao Xian Zi (the little red emergency pill): Where does that list come from? Is it reliable? Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 Thank you, Yehuda, for sending that detailed info on Yunnan Bai Yao - I'd never seen a list of ingredients before. It also seems to clarify that the " emergency pill " is for shock. And thank you, Carl, for sending more detailed info on your case. Very interesting. Menopausal or no, it sounds like you've helped her much with the bleeding and stressful feelings about the bleeding (wouldn't leave the house for 3 weeks out of the month!!!)...seems to me that at this point she ought to be able to keep her uterus if she wants to. Nora On 5/23/06, wrote: > > Dear Carl, > > Let me try a different approach for you to consider: > > Below are the known ingredients of Yunnan Bai Yao, including their > relevant properties (the top one's are the powder and below the line are the > ingredients of the Bao Xian Zi (the little red emergency pill): > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 In a bottle of Yunnan Bao Yao that I purchased a couple of years ago, there was an insert which actually listed the ingredients. I confirmed it last evening with a google seach that gave me the ingredients I listed. The properties, temperatures and channels entered I entered using Chen and Chen. Yehuda Eric Brand <smilinglotus wrote: , yehuda frischman < wrote: > Below are the known ingredients of Yunnan Bai Yao, including their relevant properties (the top one's are the powder and below the line are the ingredients of the Bao Xian Zi (the little red emergency pill): Where does that list come from? Is it reliable? Eric Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 I was told by Dr. J Min Fan (PCOM - San Diego) that the ingredients listed on packages of Yunnan Bai Yao that are exported are not the actual ingredients in the product. According to him, Yunnan Bai Yao is one of China's most highly regarded secrets and they would never disclose the actual (or complete) ingredient list. The herbs listed on the packages we get are simply to satisfy FDA requirements. Perhaps someone on this list can confirm/clarify this information? Joy ________ Joy Keller, LAc, Dipl.OM Board Certified in Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine Ramona Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine Clinic Phone: (760) 654-1040 Fax: (760) 654-4019 www.RamonaAcupuncture.com On 5/23/06, wrote: > > In a bottle of Yunnan Bao Yao that I purchased a couple of years ago, > there was an insert which actually listed the ingredients. I confirmed it > last evening with a google seach that gave me the ingredients I listed. The > properties, temperatures and channels entered I entered using Chen and Chen. > > Yehuda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 Hi Yehuda, thanks for the list. Here's one with %'s based on the new package (can't say how reliable it is, though ...). As you can see it's more than half san qi and shan yao. I do agree that san qi should be used cautiously in blood and yin def., but with the %'s in mind would you (or others) still consider the overal action mostly reducing? San-Qi 200 mg Herb of Clarke/Ajuga forrestii (San Yu Cao), 85 mg Chinese Yam (Shan-yao), 66.5 mg Japanese Yam (Dioscorea nipponica), 50 mg Geranium/Erodium, 36 mg Dioscorea parviflora, 30 mg Inula cappa, 25 mg > IMVHO, Yunnan Bai yao as a formula would appear to me to be inappropriate for someone who is vacuous or deficient. Where it would appear to be helpful would be in the case of excessive bleeding, but the impression I get from the sources I saw was that it would not be indicated for mild, non-painful, and non-hemorrhaging bleeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 Hi Yehuda, thanks for the list. Here's one with %'s based on the new package (can't say how reliable it is, though ...). As you can see it's more than half san qi and shan yao. I do agree that san qi should be used cautiously in blood and yin def., but with the %'s in mind would you (or others) still consider the overal action mostly reducing? San-Qi 200 mg Herb of Clarke/Ajuga forrestii (San Yu Cao), 85 mg Chinese Yam (Shan-yao), 66.5 mg Japanese Yam (Dioscorea nipponica), 50 mg Geranium/Erodium, 36 mg Dioscorea parviflora, 30 mg Inula cappa, 25 mg > IMVHO, Yunnan Bai yao as a formula would appear to me to be inappropriate for someone who is vacuous or deficient. Where it would appear to be helpful would be in the case of excessive bleeding, but the impression I get from the sources I saw was that it would not be indicated for mild, non-painful, and non-hemorrhaging bleeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 I heard a similar thing some yrs. ago. I believe that is the traditional CM 'patenting system' (i.e., secrecy). I think many of us can see where this might be at odds w/ the current US FDA (this is partly why the FDA started here- the matter of disclosure when we had undisclosed opiates, ethanol and what have you in our tonics, syrups, etc., ...) ... . So it's hard to say whether the older or newer ingredient lists of Yunnan Baiyao are more correct, but at least we have a better idea than before they gave a list (I like to think, anyway) ... . Gus Turpin , " Joy Keller " <JKellerLAc wrote: > > I was told by Dr. J Min Fan (PCOM - San Diego) that the ingredients listed > on packages of Yunnan Bai Yao that are exported are not the actual > ingredients in the product. According to him, Yunnan Bai Yao is one of > China's most highly regarded secrets and they would never disclose the > actual (or complete) ingredient list. The herbs listed on the packages we > get are simply to satisfy FDA requirements. Perhaps someone on this list can > confirm/clarify this information? > > Joy > > > ________ > Joy Keller, LAc, Dipl.OM > Board Certified in Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine > Ramona Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine Clinic > Phone: (760) 654-1040 Fax: (760) 654-4019 > www.RamonaAcupuncture.com > > On 5/23/06, wrote: > > > > In a bottle of Yunnan Bao Yao that I purchased a couple of years ago, > > there was an insert which actually listed the ingredients. I confirmed it > > last evening with a google seach that gave me the ingredients I listed. The > > properties, temperatures and channels entered I entered using Chen and Chen. > > > > Yehuda > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 I think that Min is correct. There seems to be, from the smell, some type of camphor in the product, which I remember being listed in earlier versions of product literature. Earlier versions of yunnan baiyao supposedly had a form of aconite as well (chuan wu). It would make sense that these ingredients wouldn't be listed in new packaging, as these ingredients are considered to be toxic by the FDA. On May 23, 2006, at 1:19 PM, Joy Keller wrote: > I was told by Dr. J Min Fan (PCOM - San Diego) that the ingredients > listed > on packages of Yunnan Bai Yao that are exported are not the actual > ingredients in the product. According to him, Yunnan Bai Yao is one of > China's most highly regarded secrets and they would never disclose the > actual (or complete) ingredient list. The herbs listed on the > packages we > get are simply to satisfy FDA requirements. Perhaps someone on this > list can > confirm/clarify this information? > > Joy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 Nonetheless, the choice of those chosen to be listed must to some degree be indicative of the indications the manufacturer had in mind for usage. Virtually all the cases, studies and indications I have seen seem to be treating replete conditions. <zrosenbe wrote: I think that Min is correct. There seems to be, from the smell, some type of camphor in the product, which I remember being listed in earlier versions of product literature. Earlier versions of yunnan baiyao supposedly had a form of aconite as well (chuan wu). It would make sense that these ingredients wouldn't be listed in new packaging, as these ingredients are considered to be toxic by the FDA. On May 23, 2006, at 1:19 PM, Joy Keller wrote: > I was told by Dr. J Min Fan (PCOM - San Diego) that the ingredients > listed > on packages of Yunnan Bai Yao that are exported are not the actual > ingredients in the product. According to him, Yunnan Bai Yao is one of > China's most highly regarded secrets and they would never disclose the > actual (or complete) ingredient list. The herbs listed on the > packages we > get are simply to satisfy FDA requirements. Perhaps someone on this > list can > confirm/clarify this information? > > Joy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2006 Report Share Posted May 23, 2006 , " Joy Keller " <JKellerLAc wrote: > > I was told by Dr. J Min Fan (PCOM - San Diego) that the ingredients listed > on packages of Yunnan Bai Yao that are exported are not the actual > ingredients in the product. I believe that this is true. It is likely that Yunnan Baiyao contains the ingredients listed, but they are surely not the entire formula. Apparently, Yunnan baiyao was a family recipe that was acquired by the state and is a state-controlled secret of the PRC. I've heard that it is difficult to crack by chemical analysis because it is believed to contain a variety of local ingredients (Yunnan province has a large amount of locally-used medicinals). Finding chemical standards for comparison would thus be difficult. Awhile back, some chemists figured out many of the ingredients in Coca-Cola by chemical analysis, but the process is apparently difficult and would be next to impossible without reference samples for the many local ingredients possible in a product like Yunnan baiyao. Further complicating the issue is the fact that Yunnan baiyao has many counterfeits and imitations. Is the ingredient list provided from the authentic product? For sure? There are two different lists posted already. I'd say that unless someone has a friend in the Chinese military, we are not likely to ever learn the true ingredient list. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 " I'd say that unless someone has a friend in the Chinese military, we are not likely to ever learn the true ingredient list. " And without the full ingredients, woe to him or her who prescribes this med and then winds up in court. Since this med is used for emergency bleeding conditions, this is not so far-fetched. I keep this med in all my First Aid kits and would not hesitate to use it with my family. Prescribing it to a patient is another matter altogether. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2006 Report Share Posted May 25, 2006 It is the truth that YNBY is the top trade secret, which China government will never disclose the complete ingredient list. Ta-Ya Lee, MSN, CRNP, MAc, LAc, MBA Johns Hopkins Community Physicians Wyman Park Internal Medicine Phone 410-338-3421 Fax 410-338-3413 WARNING: E-mail sent over the Internet is not secure. Information sent by e-mail may not remain confidential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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