intention, doctoral program, medicine as right

[Guest guest]

hello everyone,

 

i haven't been keeping up as well as I would like with the discussions,

however, i did take some time this morning to get myself up to speed with

the some 10 digests that appeared in my inbox overnight.

 

i'd like to chime in on a couple of points.

 

intention:

i am of the opinion that manipulating a patient's energy requires energy on

the practitioner's part. whether you draw from your own reserves or practice

qi gong in order to do so.. using the term " intention " is one way of

describing this, however, my experience has been that " intending " one result

or another may not be of necessity - for me, keeping the clearest head

possible seems to work best - needling in a slight meditative state of

clear, focused, lack of intention, with the purpose of allowing the energy

to pass through me unfettered. this is just what works for me, i do not

intend to put this forward as anything more than my own experience.

 

practicing a medicine that acknowledges and manipulates a form of energy,

Qi, seems to predicate that the state of Qi of the practitioner, the room,

the day, etc. will have some effect on the outcome.

 

i have also noted that when i am energized, clear headed, focused, and in

good spirits, my treatments are dramatically more effective. the opposite is

true when i'm drained. although many explainations can be put forward for

this outcome, not the least is that perhaps my ability to locate points

appropriately is compromised by my fatigue, i lean towards at least a

partial energetic explaination for this repeated result.

 

i have also been confounded by the disdain thrown to the " placebo " effect,

considering it to be proof of the true power of the mind!

 

The Doctor Title:

To be taken seriously by fellow health care practitioners, and thus improve

our PR, legislative standing, etc, I think it's important for us to pursue a

doctorate level training. Medical Doctors, Osteopaths and Chiropractors all

have doctorates. We risk being relagated to the level of technicians if we

broadcast to the health care community that our medicine is " simple " enough

(their assumption, not mine) to be taught in a 2 year program - a common

assumption for the length of time of a Masters program (in fact some masters

programs are taught in 1.5 years!). Most of us most recent graduates have

nearly, if not over 3000 hours of post grad education! And this is on top of

a Bachelor's degree for many of us (myself included). I have been told that

MD programs are only 4000 hours, a difference of less than 1000 hours for

some MSOM holders. It is a disservice to all of us to be holding a Masters

degree for what amounts to double the amount of education. It also lends

credence to the idea that our medicine could be effectively taught in a

short seminar type format for MD's or chiropractors.

 

We all know that to be false, we all know how complex, profound and

extensive our medicine, but the PR problem begins, in part, with our

education institutions - the requirements for entry and the degree given

upon graduation. I look forward to the day when we have enough resources and

support for a true doctorate program available throughout the country and

even more so for the possibility that this could one day be offered by

public universities.

 

Medicine as a " right " :

 

I may be lynched for this, but I believe that business and Medicine go hand

in hand. One cannot supercede the other since business above medicine leads

to unethical medicine and medicine above business leads to poor, drained

practitioners. (The balance of Yin (care) and Yang (money)?)

 

We should be paid what we deserve for our services, and I would even put

forth that it is in the best interest of the patient to pay for our

services. It has been shown in psychology that people value more highly what

they must pay for more highly. I believe a patient's results are directly

proportional to how much they invest in their own health - the amount of

money (proportional to income) that they invest being directly correlated to

how compliant and committed they are to their own health and wellbeing.

Getting something for free means the stakes are much lower. As a result, I

have a set rate that I will slide if the patient requires it. I provide free

and low cost health care to the local Women's Safehouse, I show myself open

and willing to help to whatever extent I can manage without injuring my own

Qi or livlihood if a patient in turn is committed and willing to learn and

grow. However, I think we do our medicine a disservice by describing it as a

" right " since a " right " people need not work toward, and we all know that

health must be actively pursued. Perhaps we are saying the same thing but

merely arguing over semantics. I think our medicine should be available to

anyone who is willing to commit to their health. That's what many

acupuncture colleges provide - availability of low-cost alternatives for

people who cannot afford it otherwise.

 

That's all for now - I'd also like to say hello and congrats to Yehuda - and

hello to Kelvin, if it indeed is the Kelvin from DRU a couple years back.

 

Kind Regards,

Nadia E. Haddad, MS, L.Ac

[Guest guest]

I would like to add comment to a point that Nadia makes when she states that,

 

" I think we do our medicine a disservice by describing it as a " right " since a

" right " people need not work toward, and we all know that health must be

actively pursued. "

 

I never said our medicine was a right but that healthcare is a right for all (if

we want to be left out of mainstream care then so be it). Health is something

that one must work on but our society is pushing people further away from this

as time demands for work increase.

 

I was not trying to say something for nothing but there are many ways that

people currently pay for their healthcare other then directly cash. Our society

has likewise created us to become more specialized as individuals, which means

that we rely upon each other for other areas that we cannot perform. Healthcare

is a right and a condition for most full-time employment contracts (employers,

work comp, etc) which maybe why we need to separate healthcare from employment.

 

On the other hand, if we suddenly allow for large corps to change their minds

willy-nilly then who is accountable (better yet why even have contacts

anymore?)? We are seeing a similar problem with pension plans and boy is that a

mess. When a person pays into something like this for years only to have a corp

steal your retirement, that is a crime.

 

I digress but wanted to get to single payer universal care because it seems to

be what was implied in the post. People pay taxes and these go to pay for govt

admin for various programs and functioning, so nothing in this country is really

free. Our future society can either move to a higher place by removing the

greedy insr/HMO from the business of healthcare or we can continue to see

healthcare become an expensive option afforded only to the rich (HSA's). If we

think that things will be better, I would say that more study has shown

increased ER visits, and this will drain our govt dollars for other things.

Morally it is wrong to make this issue a political one as health is a right of

all people, not just Americans but we are the ones who can make it happen here.

If you want to see more optional healthcare or worse yet mandated coverage stay

tuned because that is what our current " big brother " leadership wants to make

it. We all become criminals if we have no coverage and there is no

cost-containment language so the problem of escalating costs continues and the

HMO's get richer. Talk about your indentured servitude or economic slavery if

you will. America's forefathers would never have allowed for this type of

criminal activity to stain our govt and they did not. We need to become more

vocal about ethics and positive changes to the healthcare system. If our

profession continues to remain silent then we may be lost and never truly

fulfill our place as a cost-effective part of the healthcare system. We can

make lots of arguments for why do not like govt in things but then there is

reality and corps have not done well either. This argument usually centers

around cost containment and high admin expenses that HMO have which is around

30% as opposed to 2% for current Medicare. When polled about satisfaction of

care, patients have been reported to rate Medicare higher then their HMO. As an

aside, I would much rather deal with the govt on claims then an HMO, which I did

for a couple of years. The govt is straight forward w/o all the issues and

wasted time to get paid. Go figure.

 

In the end, we need to get knowledgeable about these issues and get politically

involved not only for our profession but also for our patients sake. Take care

and thanks for the forum to speak.

 

MB

 

 

:

eastdakota: Sat, 20 May 2006 11:06:13 -0700TCM -

intention, doctoral program, medicine as " right " hello everyone,i haven't been

keeping up as well as I would like with the discussions, however, i did take

some time this morning to get myself up to speed with the some 10 digests that

appeared in my inbox overnight.i'd like to chime in on a couple of

points.intention:i am of the opinion that manipulating a patient's energy

requires energy on the practitioner's part. whether you draw from your own

reserves or practice qi gong in order to do so.. using the term " intention " is

one way of describing this, however, my experience has been that " intending " one

result or another may not be of necessity - for me, keeping the clearest head

possible seems to work best - needling in a slight meditative state of clear,

focused, lack of intention, with the purpose of allowing the energy to pass

through me unfettered. this is just what works for me, i do not intend to put

this forward as anything more than my own experience.practicing a medicine that

acknowledges and manipulates a form of energy, Qi, seems to predicate that the

state of Qi of the practitioner, the room, the day, etc. will have some effect

on the outcome.i have also noted that when i am energized, clear headed,

focused, and in good spirits, my treatments are dramatically more effective. the

opposite is true when i'm drained. although many explainations can be put

forward for this outcome, not the least is that perhaps my ability to locate

points appropriately is compromised by my fatigue, i lean towards at least a

partial energetic explaination for this repeated result.i have also been

confounded by the disdain thrown to the " placebo " effect, considering it to be

proof of the true power of the mind!The Doctor Title:To be taken seriously by

fellow health care practitioners, and thus improve our PR, legislative standing,

etc, I think it's important for us to pursue a doctorate level training. Medical

Doctors, Osteopaths and Chiropractors all have doctorates. We risk being

relagated to the level of technicians if we broadcast to the health care

community that our medicine is " simple " enough (their assumption, not mine) to

be taught in a 2 year program - a common assumption for the length of time of a

Masters program (in fact some masters programs are taught in 1.5 years!). Most

of us most recent graduates have nearly, if not over 3000 hours of post grad

education! And this is on top of a Bachelor's degree for many of us (myself

included). I have been told that MD programs are only 4000 hours, a difference

of less than 1000 hours for some MSOM holders. It is a disservice to all of us

to be holding a Masters degree for what amounts to double the amount of

education. It also lends credence to the idea that our medicine could be

effectively taught in a short seminar type format for MD's or chiropractors.We

all know that to be false, we all know how complex, profound and extensive our

medicine, but the PR problem begins, in part, with our education institutions -

the requirements for entry and the degree given upon graduation. I look forward

to the day when we have enough resources and support for a true doctorate

program available throughout the country and even more so for the possibility

that this could one day be offered by public universities.Medicine as a

" right " :I may be lynched for this, but I believe that business and Medicine go

hand in hand. One cannot supercede the other since business above medicine leads

to unethical medicine and medicine above business leads to poor, drained

practitioners. (The balance of Yin (care) and Yang (money)?)We should be paid

what we deserve for our services, and I would even put forth that it is in the

best interest of the patient to pay for our services. It has been shown in

psychology that people value more highly what they must pay for more highly. I

believe a patient's results are directly proportional to how much they invest in

their own health - the amount of money (proportional to income) that they invest

being directly correlated to how compliant and committed they are to their own

health and wellbeing. Getting something for free means the stakes are much

lower. As a result, I have a set rate that I will slide if the patient requires

it. I provide free and low cost health care to the local Women's Safehouse, I

show myself open and willing to help to whatever extent I can manage without

injuring my own Qi or livlihood if a patient in turn is committed and willing to

learn and grow. However, I think we do our medicine a disservice by describing

it as a " right " since a " right " people need not work toward, and we all know

that health must be actively pursued. Perhaps we are saying the same thing but

merely arguing over semantics. I think our medicine should be available to

anyone who is willing to commit to their health. That's what many acupuncture

colleges provide - availability of low-cost alternatives for people who cannot

afford it otherwise.That's all for now - I'd also like to say hello and congrats

to Yehuda - and hello to Kelvin, if it indeed is the Kelvin from DRU a couple

years back.Kind Regards,Nadia E. Haddad, MS, L.AcSubscribe to the new FREE

online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum

Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145To

change your email delivery settings, click,

and adjust

accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

the group requires prior permission from the author.Please consider the

environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary.

 

[Guest guest]

There is a difference between a national health service that makes

health care available to the greater public, and treating people for

free. In this country (Australia), we have a medicare system that up

until recently meant that most visits to a medical doctor were

essentially free for the patient, and then the doctor would " bulk

bill " the government to recover the fee. However, due to various

factors in the health care sector, most doctors are choosing now to

charge up front fees and then leave it to the patient to recover the

cost from the government themselves. The government has a set amount

that they will pay for a consultation and if the doctor charges more

than this then the patient may be out of pocket. Some doctors will

still bulk bill patients with a " health care card " which means they

are low income or unemployed, or with a pension card, but this is

becoming increasingly rare. The public hospital system and community

clinics are taking up the slack for these patients.

The unfortunate thing is that the medicare system is paid for by a

levy that is essentially a tax that is added on to a persons income

tax. So middle income brackets who pay for this system cannot access

it the way they used to be able to.

I, personally, would prefer to see a certain amount of over-

servicing of some patients, than seeing people choose not to go to a

doctor because they dont want, or cant afford, to pay an upfront

fee. (Or also cant be arsed sitting in a community clinic for the

better part of a day so that they can see some juniour doctor saw-

bones who looks at them for 10 minutes and then sends them home.)

All that being said. Health care is still available to all in this

country, and I think it makes a huge difference to quality of life.

I have two children, and was able to have a hospital birth and pay

absolutely nothing with each of them. In fact, the first one was

born in a rural, public hospital, with midwife based care, private

rooms with a big double bed for my partner to stay too. And when I

asked how long I could stay for, they said " Just leave before the

kids in school. " Paying no out of pocket fees for this service did

not make me appreciate it less, in fact, it made me appreciate it

more, and took alot of stress out of a situation where you dont need

any more financial pressures, such as the imminent arrival of a

child.

Access to health care should be a fundamental human right. I also

agree, however, that practitioners should be renumerated adequately

for their services, and I also agree with the notion that people

should invest in their own health, with possibly a better treatment

outcome the more they have invested in it, but that doesnt

necessarily translate out to paying large, up-front fees before

anybody is going to treat you.

I recently posted a link on a study that analysed peoples health

between the UK and the US and discovered that people in the UK are

much healthier, even when they adjusted for all factors, it was

still a marked difference. The researchers felt that because

spending on health care was much higher in the US, then patients

should therefore have better health, and they also seemed to

downplay the role of the NHS in the UK for health promotion, feeling

that this should only account for better health in lower income

groups. I feel this is missing some fundamental points. 1) That

spending on health care in the States does not reflect how much

health care is actually being recieved, but rather the nature of the

health care system there (litigious nature of the industry, private

health insurance, etc etc.) 2) A national health system such as the

UK's benefits people across the board, not just lower income groups.

(I also feel that you cant downplay diet as a factor, but that is

getting off topic.)

I think that some of the listers would benefit from looking in to

how other nations are dealing with the issue of national health. A

lot of places, in Europe in particular, are doing quite well with

providing health care for their citizens.

Oh, and just for the record, even though I was born and raised in

Australia, I am also a US citizen and have family ties and

experience with the place, so to a certain extent I am able to form

an opinion on this. I am well aware that in the US, the amount of

medical cover you have, or how much you are able to spend, directly

relates to the quality of care you will recieve. This is a factor

elsewhere in the world, but unfortunately almost defines the US

system.

Regards,

lea.

Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser "

<naturaldoc1 wrote:

>

> I would like to add comment to a point that Nadia makes when she

states that,

>

> " I think we do our medicine a disservice by describing it as

a " right " since a " right " people need not work toward, and we all

know that health must be actively pursued. "

>

> I never said our medicine was a right but that healthcare is a

right for all (if we want to be left out of mainstream care then so

be it). Health is something that one must work on but our society

is pushing people further away from this as time demands for work

increase.

>

> I was not trying to say something for nothing but there are many

ways that people currently pay for their healthcare other then

directly cash. Our society has likewise created us to become more

specialized as individuals, which means that we rely upon each other

for other areas that we cannot perform. Healthcare is a right and a

condition for most full-time employment contracts (employers, work

comp, etc) which maybe why we need to separate healthcare from

employment.

>

> On the other hand, if we suddenly allow for large corps to change

their minds willy-nilly then who is accountable (better yet why even

have contacts anymore?)? We are seeing a similar problem with

pension plans and boy is that a mess. When a person pays into

something like this for years only to have a corp steal your

retirement, that is a crime.

>

> I digress but wanted to get to single payer universal care because

it seems to be what was implied in the post. People pay taxes and

these go to pay for govt admin for various programs and functioning,

so nothing in this country is really free. Our future society can

either move to a higher place by removing the greedy insr/HMO from

the business of healthcare or we can continue to see healthcare

become an expensive option afforded only to the rich (HSA's). If we

think that things will be better, I would say that more study has

shown increased ER visits, and this will drain our govt dollars for

other things. Morally it is wrong to make this issue a political

one as health is a right of all people, not just Americans but we

are the ones who can make it happen here. If you want to see more

optional healthcare or worse yet mandated coverage stay tuned

because that is what our current " big brother " leadership wants to

make it. We all become criminals if we have no coverage and there

is no cost-containment language so the problem of escalating costs

continues and the HMO's get richer. Talk about your indentured

servitude or economic slavery if you will. America's forefathers

would never have allowed for this type of criminal activity to stain

our govt and they did not. We need to become more vocal about

ethics and positive changes to the healthcare system. If our

profession continues to remain silent then we may be lost and never

truly fulfill our place as a cost-effective part of the healthcare

system. We can make lots of arguments for why do not like govt in

things but then there is reality and corps have not done well

either. This argument usually centers around cost containment and

high admin expenses that HMO have which is around 30% as opposed to

2% for current Medicare. When polled about satisfaction of care,

patients have been reported to rate Medicare higher then their HMO.

As an aside, I would much rather deal with the govt on claims then

an HMO, which I did for a couple of years. The govt is straight

forward w/o all the issues and wasted time to get paid. Go figure.

>

> In the end, we need to get knowledgeable about these issues and

get politically involved not only for our profession but also for

our patients sake. Take care and thanks for the forum to speak.

>

> MB

>

>

> : eastdakota: Sat, 20 May

2006 11:06:13 -0700intention, doctoral program,

medicine as " right " hello everyone,i haven't been keeping up as well

as I would like with the discussions, however, i did take some time

this morning to get myself up to speed with the some 10 digests that

appeared in my inbox overnight.i'd like to chime in on a couple of

points.intention:i am of the opinion that manipulating a patient's

energy requires energy on the practitioner's part. whether you draw

from your own reserves or practice qi gong in order to do so.. using

the term " intention " is one way of describing this, however, my

experience has been that " intending " one result or another may not

be of necessity - for me, keeping the clearest head possible seems

to work best - needling in a slight meditative state of clear,

focused, lack of intention, with the purpose of allowing the energy

to pass through me unfettered. this is just what works for me, i do

not intend to put this forward as anything more than my own

experience.practicing a medicine that acknowledges and manipulates a

form of energy, Qi, seems to predicate that the state of Qi of the

practitioner, the room, the day, etc. will have some effect on the

outcome.i have also noted that when i am energized, clear headed,

focused, and in good spirits, my treatments are dramatically more

effective. the opposite is true when i'm drained. although many

explainations can be put forward for this outcome, not the least is

that perhaps my ability to locate points appropriately is

compromised by my fatigue, i lean towards at least a partial

energetic explaination for this repeated result.i have also been

confounded by the disdain thrown to the " placebo " effect,

considering it to be proof of the true power of the mind!The Doctor

Title:To be taken seriously by fellow health care practitioners, and

thus improve our PR, legislative standing, etc, I think it's

important for us to pursue a doctorate level training. Medical

Doctors, Osteopaths and Chiropractors all have doctorates. We risk

being relagated to the level of technicians if we broadcast to the

health care community that our medicine is " simple " enough (their

assumption, not mine) to be taught in a 2 year program - a common

assumption for the length of time of a Masters program (in fact some

masters programs are taught in 1.5 years!). Most of us most recent

graduates have nearly, if not over 3000 hours of post grad

education! And this is on top of a Bachelor's degree for many of us

(myself included). I have been told that MD programs are only 4000

hours, a difference of less than 1000 hours for some MSOM holders.

It is a disservice to all of us to be holding a Masters degree for

what amounts to double the amount of education. It also lends

credence to the idea that our medicine could be effectively taught

in a short seminar type format for MD's or chiropractors.We all know

that to be false, we all know how complex, profound and extensive

our medicine, but the PR problem begins, in part, with our education

institutions - the requirements for entry and the degree given upon

graduation. I look forward to the day when we have enough resources

and support for a true doctorate program available throughout the

country and even more so for the possibility that this could one day

be offered by public universities.Medicine as a " right " :I may be

lynched for this, but I believe that business and Medicine go hand

in hand. One cannot supercede the other since business above

medicine leads to unethical medicine and medicine above business

leads to poor, drained practitioners. (The balance of Yin (care) and

Yang (money)?)We should be paid what we deserve for our services,

and I would even put forth that it is in the best interest of the

patient to pay for our services. It has been shown in psychology

that people value more highly what they must pay for more highly. I

believe a patient's results are directly proportional to how much

they invest in their own health - the amount of money (proportional

to income) that they invest being directly correlated to how

compliant and committed they are to their own health and wellbeing.

Getting something for free means the stakes are much lower. As a

result, I have a set rate that I will slide if the patient requires

it. I provide free and low cost health care to the local Women's

Safehouse, I show myself open and willing to help to whatever extent

I can manage without injuring my own Qi or livlihood if a patient in

turn is committed and willing to learn and grow. However, I think we

do our medicine a disservice by describing it as a " right " since

a " right " people need not work toward, and we all know that health

must be actively pursued. Perhaps we are saying the same thing but

merely arguing over semantics. I think our medicine should be

available to anyone who is willing to commit to their health. That's

what many acupuncture colleges provide - availability of low-cost

alternatives for people who cannot afford it otherwise.That's all

for now - I'd also like to say hello and congrats to Yehuda - and

hello to Kelvin, if it indeed is the Kelvin from DRU a couple years

back.Kind Regards,Nadia E. Haddad, MS, L.AcSubscribe to the new FREE

online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM

Forum Toolbar, click,

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145To change

your email delivery settings, click,

and

adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any

duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the

author.Please consider the environment and only print this message

if absolutely necessary.

>