Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)needling)

May 20, 2006

It's called the Hawthorne effect and it is well established and accepted in the

scientific community. No one is arguing against this.

Dr. Snow, DAOM

-

Anne Crowley

Thursday, May 18, 2006 2:49 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

(Even)needling)

I remember this study Dermot. I just wanted to chime in on this thread.

I totally believe in intention in healing whether it is Western Medicine

or Eastern or the local energy healer. I also believe in the patient's

spirit and will to be in this human body and have it heal. Sometimes

it's just time to give it up, no matter how strong your will, and that

may be when you are willing to let go.

Way back in my business studies and teaching, there was famous study

called the Hawthorne studies. Factory workers were being studied in a

plant " the Hawthorne

plant. " , I believe in NY. They actually did things to make the factory

workers perform worse, such as lower lighting so they couldn't see as

well. The results were astonishing that this group of people actually

became more productive. It was concluded that just the fact that they

were being observed - they were also interviewed as part of the study.

The fact that someone was actually " paying attention " to them, made them

perform better, not worse.

I think this goes on with placebo too. I know my husband gets better

the minute an MD writes the perscription, before he even fills it. I

think any kind of treatment, sham, placebo if delivered in a healing way

is going to promote healing.

I like hitting real acupuncture points, prescribing the best herbs, and

delivering a healing intention. I'm just saying a lot of factors go

into it. Even grandma cuddling you when your sick can make you feel better.

Anne

Dermot O'Connor wrote:

>Ray,

>

>Sorry but what you are saying isn't quite true. In a single-blind or double

>blind placebo study you simply can't tell the patients when they are

>receiving the placebo. If you do then it just isn't a blinded study

>anymore.

>

>It was a thoroughly scientific study, people knew that they were potentially

>going to receive " sham " surgery. Regardless of that, the results were the

>same between the two groups. If you tell someone they are receiving a

>placebo then the belief in the treatment disappears and along with it the

>potential healing power.

>

>Regards

>

>Dermot

>

>-

> " Ray Ford " <ray

><Chinese Medicine >

>Thursday, May 18, 2006 11:50 AM

>RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

>needling)

>

>Dermot,

>The qoute below,taken from your post is very interesting BUT unless each

>patient knee the 'experiment " was taking place.

>I have not seen the documentary but reading between the lines of your post

>it seems the patients did not know?

>If this WAS the case it is very very bad medicine IMO.These people were

>little more than lab rats.Rather than be proud of his claim,the opposite

>should be true.This is of course IF THEY DID KNOW,which seems unlikely.This

>is blatant and unethical,too horible to contemplate where it might lead,how

>on earth did he pull it off.

>What next?David Coperfield's home surgery kit ?

>Ray Ford

>

>-a knee surgeon in the US who has made an amazing discovery. In an research

>trial, he gave a group of his patients a fake operation. He opened them up -

>

>but instead of carrying out the usual procedure - simply sowed them back up

>again having done nothing at all. Incredibly, this group of patients did as

>well as those who had the real procedure. When asked about this Kathy made

>the point that these people got better even though they hadn't received any

>treatment at all. But the knee surgeon corrected her - " these people got

>better, they got treatment it just wasn't the treatment that they thought

>they got "

>

> _____

>

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

>O'Connor

>Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:51 AM

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

>needling)

>

>Our thoughts and our beliefs cause real and scientifically measurable

>bio-chemical changes in our bodies and science proves this. The point is

>that belief/placebo plays a major role (sometimes the major role) and has

>been proven to work on everything from the common cold to cancer. I'm not

>saying that placebo alone is more effective than all treatments, all

>medications and all surgery. No, that would just be plain silly. But

>belief plays a major role in all treatments even drug treatments when drug

>has been proven to be effective. Thats why ALL drugs including those used

>to treat bacterial infection and hepatitis have to be tested in trials

>against a placebo. If belief could be completely discounted, just the way

>you completely discounted it in your first e-mail about the monkey

>acupuncturists, then drugs trialed for these conditions would not have to be

>

>tested against a placebo. But all proper medical research trials have to be

>

>scientific and not based on any emotional bias and therefore have to take

>into consideration placebo (belief).

>

>Drugs are only classified as effective when they are MORE effective than a

>placebo. So for example, if the placebo cures 40% of people and the real

>medication cures 50% then the medication can be classified as an effective

>treatment. That means that such a drug's effectiveness is 80% attributable

>to placebo (belief) and only 20% attributable to the real effect of the

>drug. It might surprise you just how many drugs are classified as effective

>

>by the FDA and similar bodies, even though the drugs are only marginally

>more effective than placebos/belief (perhaps only a few percentage points).

>

>You'd do well to take a fresh look at this and get a fuller understanding of

>

>what the power of belief and intention could mean for your clients.....

>

>If you ever get a chance to see this well put together BBC documentary you

>should (see link below). In this documentary the scientist Kathy Sykes met

>a knee surgeon in the US who has made an amazing discovery. In an research

>trial, he gave a group of his patients a fake operation. He opened them up -

>

>but instead of carrying out the usual procedure - simply sowed them back up

>again having done nothing at all. Incredibly, this group of patients did as

>well as those who had the real procedure. When asked about this Kathy made

>the point that these people got better even though they hadn't received any

>treatment at all. But the knee surgeon corrected her - " these people got

>better, they got treatment it just wasn't the treatment that they thought

>they got "

>

>http://www.open2.net/home/view?entityID=27419

><http://www.open2.net/home/view?entityID=27419 & jsp=prog_pages%2Ftemplate%2Fv

>iewer & sessionID=-1147903488051 & entityName=object>

> & jsp=prog_pages%2Ftemplate%2Fviewer & sessionID=-1147903488051 & entityName=obje

>ct

>

>Kind regards

>

>Dermot

>

>-

> " daomsnow " <don83407

><Chinese Medicine >

>Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:31 PM

>Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

>needling)

>

>>You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all medicines.

>>However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo is not

>>the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the belief.

>>The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, try " just

>>believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the medicine thank

>>you.

>>

>>Dr. Snow

>>

>>Chinese Medicine , " Dermot

>>O'Connor " <dermot wrote:

>>

>>>Don,

>>>

>>>I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a

>>>

>>patient any

>>

>>>confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey

>>>

>>have

>>

>>>intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention and

>>>

>>the

>>

>>>belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine, Oriental

>>>

>>Medicine

>>

>>>and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept -

>>>

>>and " conventional "

>>

>>>doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a

>>>

>>treatment

>>

>>>will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or failure

>>>

>>of any

>>

>>>treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking

>>>

>>almost 40%

>>

>>>of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the

>>>

>>part of the

>>

>>>patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

>>>approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed

>>>

>>to this

>>

>>>mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo

>>>

>>effect,

>>

>>>which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined

>>>

>>illness.

>>

>>>The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and proven

>>>

>>cure for

>>

>>>a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is still

>>>

>>a

>>

>>>complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate

>>>

>>with

>>

>>>harnessing this powerful effect.

>>>

>>>Kind regards

>>>

>>>Dermot

>>>

>>>-

>>> " daomsnow " <don83407

>>><Chinese Medicine >

>>>Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

>>>Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

>>>

>>(Even)

>>

>>>needling)

>>>

>>>I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

>>>important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that view.

>>>If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

>>>work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

>>>

>>>Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep and

>>>I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe that

>>>it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

>>>course you know the answer to that one.

>>>

>>>Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

>>>acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the

>>>

>>needle

>>

>>>into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

>>>trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

>>>medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

>>>practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

>>>practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

>>>practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

>>>

>>>Respectfully,

>>>

>>> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

>>>

>>>In Chinese Medicine , " "

>>><@> wrote:

>>>

>>>>Hi David

>>>>

>>>>>If the order of needling is not important ...

>>>>>

>>>>I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

>>>>

>>>needling order

>>>

>>>>really IS important.

>>>>

>>>>>... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

>>>>>

>>>>Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

>>>>important.

>>>>

>>>>We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

>>>>(numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

>>>>

>>>wrongly) that

>>>

>>>>something is necessary, one does it that way.

>>>>

>>>>>Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

>>>>>

>>>Ghost

>>>

>>>>>points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity

>>>>>

>>etc?

>>

>>>>See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

>>>>possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the

>>>>

>>way

>>

>>>one can /

>>>

>>>>must use to do that.

>>>>

>>>>>You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling

>>>>>

>>techniques,

>>

>>>which

>>>

>>>>>places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

>>>>>specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to

>>>>>

>>the

>>

>>>>>acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

>>>>>

>>>>Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim

>>>>

>>that

>>

>>>laser

>>>

>>>>or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

>>>>

>>>>IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly

>>>>

>>flexible.

>>

>>>IMO, AP

>>>

>>>>given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

>>>>

>>>Shamanism) works

>>>

>>>>on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

>>>>

>>>that I have

>>>

>>>>observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

>>>>

>>>same way.

>>>

>>>>It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

>>>>

>>>concepts in

>>>

>>>>common, but may disagree on other concepts.

>>>>

>>>>I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

>>>>(a) the POINTS used,

>>>>(b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

>>>>those points that is most important?

>>>>

>>>>Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

>>>>

>>>problems, my

>>>

>>>>

>>>shown to

>>>

>>>>be wrong in that.

>>>>

>>>>Best regards,

>>>>

>>>

>>>Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese

>>>

>>Medicine Times

>>

>>>http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>>>

>>>Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

>>>http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>>>

>>> and

>>>

>>adjust

>>

>>>accordingly.

>>>

>>>Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

>>>

>>the group

>>

>>>requires prior permission from the author.

>>>

>>>Please consider the environment and only print this message if

>>>

>>absolutely

>>

>>>necessary.

>>>

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Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)needling)

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