Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Barb, It's not so. That scenario might have been possible 15 years or so ago, but the window is now firmly shut. The information I just posted before comes from the director of one of the prominent DAOM programs and we will be given a choice: " you want a doctorate? You rise to the occasion. " No free rides anymore. But ya know what? I think it's a good thing to raise the standard and to differentiate between those who just want a license to practice acupuncture and those who seek much more--to be real doctors. Though then, it might have been genuinely unequal and unfair for us not to have been called doctors, though chiropractors were, now, in the present terrain don't you think that it would be disingenuous to suddenly change the law and voila! you're a doctor and a primary care physician capable of making life and death decisions? I fondly remember while studying for the state board that there were specific indications where when faced with them the protocol was to call an MD! I long for the day, when I am able and legally capable of resolving these emergency situations myself. Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac. Barb <bbeale wrote: I don't believe that it can be a requirement to anyone currently practicing to go back to school to earn a doctorate. If anyone has any example in other professions to prove me wrong, please do. Every time I've voiced concern over this scenario, I've been calmed down with the response, " You'll be 'grand-fatherered in'. " _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:47 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow Alon, I've heard through the grapevine that the DAOM may become a required degree in California within five years. Almost certainly, to teach in California schools, it will be necessary. I am not too happy to be in my 50's with a more than full time practice plus teaching position to think about going back to school again. On May 17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, wrote: > The OMD is as useless and new DAOM, neither one is regionally > accredited and outside our little world is not recognized as > anything more than a paper mill. > The OMD degree was what the available degree at that time. I think > the world was a little different than most of the new graduate > understand. My DOM is the same type of useless paper so i am not > trying to just dis others. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Yehuda The DAOM as is now will not give you any legal cover to make the decisions you long for. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:44 PM grandfathering in as an doctor Barb, It's not so. That scenario might have been possible 15 years or so ago, but the window is now firmly shut. The information I just posted before comes from the director of one of the prominent DAOM programs and we will be given a choice: " you want a doctorate? You rise to the occasion. " No free rides anymore. But ya know what? I think it's a good thing to raise the standard and to differentiate between those who just want a license to practice acupuncture and those who seek much more--to be real doctors. Though then, it might have been genuinely unequal and unfair for us not to have been called doctors, though chiropractors were, now, in the present terrain don't you think that it would be disingenuous to suddenly change the law and voila! you're a doctor and a primary care physician capable of making life and death decisions? I fondly remember while studying for the state board that there were specific indications where when faced with them the protocol was to call an MD! I long for the day, when I am able and legally capable of resolving these emergency situations myself. Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac. Barb <bbeale wrote: I don't believe that it can be a requirement to anyone currently practicing to go back to school to earn a doctorate. If anyone has any example in other professions to prove me wrong, please do. Every time I've voiced concern over this scenario, I've been calmed down with the response, " You'll be 'grand-fatherered in'. " _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:47 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow Alon, I've heard through the grapevine that the DAOM may become a required degree in California within five years. Almost certainly, to teach in California schools, it will be necessary. I am not too happy to be in my 50's with a more than full time practice plus teaching position to think about going back to school again. On May 17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, wrote: > The OMD is as useless and new DAOM, neither one is regionally > accredited and outside our little world is not recognized as > anything more than a paper mill. > The OMD degree was what the available degree at that time. I think > the world was a little different than most of the new graduate > understand. My DOM is the same type of useless paper so i am not > trying to just dis others. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Oh I know that, Alon, I know that. BUT, I expect that as the requirements to be called a phyician change, and as the educational opportunities expand, so too will clinical opportunities and legal protections. <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda The DAOM as is now will not give you any legal cover to make the decisions you long for. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:44 PM grandfathering in as an doctor Barb, It's not so. That scenario might have been possible 15 years or so ago, but the window is now firmly shut. The information I just posted before comes from the director of one of the prominent DAOM programs and we will be given a choice: " you want a doctorate? You rise to the occasion. " No free rides anymore. But ya know what? I think it's a good thing to raise the standard and to differentiate between those who just want a license to practice acupuncture and those who seek much more--to be real doctors. Though then, it might have been genuinely unequal and unfair for us not to have been called doctors, though chiropractors were, now, in the present terrain don't you think that it would be disingenuous to suddenly change the law and voila! you're a doctor and a primary care physician capable of making life and death decisions? I fondly remember while studying for the state board that there were specific indications where when faced with them the protocol was to call an MD! I long for the day, when I am able and legally capable of resolving these emergency situations myself. Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac. Barb <bbeale wrote: I don't believe that it can be a requirement to anyone currently practicing to go back to school to earn a doctorate. If anyone has any example in other professions to prove me wrong, please do. Every time I've voiced concern over this scenario, I've been calmed down with the response, " You'll be 'grand-fatherered in'. " _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:47 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow Alon, I've heard through the grapevine that the DAOM may become a required degree in California within five years. Almost certainly, to teach in California schools, it will be necessary. I am not too happy to be in my 50's with a more than full time practice plus teaching position to think about going back to school again. On May 17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, wrote: > The OMD is as useless and new DAOM, neither one is regionally > accredited and outside our little world is not recognized as > anything more than a paper mill. > The OMD degree was what the available degree at that time. I think > the world was a little different than most of the new graduate > understand. My DOM is the same type of useless paper so i am not > trying to just dis others. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Amen Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, May 17, 2006 9:25 PM Re: grandfathering in as an doctor Oh I know that, Alon, I know that. BUT, I expect that as the requirements to be called a phyician change, and as the educational opportunities expand, so too will clinical opportunities and legal protections. <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda The DAOM as is now will not give you any legal cover to make the decisions you long for. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:44 PM grandfathering in as an doctor Barb, It's not so. That scenario might have been possible 15 years or so ago, but the window is now firmly shut. The information I just posted before comes from the director of one of the prominent DAOM programs and we will be given a choice: " you want a doctorate? You rise to the occasion. " No free rides anymore. But ya know what? I think it's a good thing to raise the standard and to differentiate between those who just want a license to practice acupuncture and those who seek much more--to be real doctors. Though then, it might have been genuinely unequal and unfair for us not to have been called doctors, though chiropractors were, now, in the present terrain don't you think that it would be disingenuous to suddenly change the law and voila! you're a doctor and a primary care physician capable of making life and death decisions? I fondly remember while studying for the state board that there were specific indications where when faced with them the protocol was to call an MD! I long for the day, when I am able and legally capable of resolving these emergency situations myself. Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac. Barb <bbeale wrote: I don't believe that it can be a requirement to anyone currently practicing to go back to school to earn a doctorate. If anyone has any example in other professions to prove me wrong, please do. Every time I've voiced concern over this scenario, I've been calmed down with the response, " You'll be 'grand-fatherered in'. " _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:47 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow Alon, I've heard through the grapevine that the DAOM may become a required degree in California within five years. Almost certainly, to teach in California schools, it will be necessary. I am not too happy to be in my 50's with a more than full time practice plus teaching position to think about going back to school again. On May 17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, wrote: > The OMD is as useless and new DAOM, neither one is regionally > accredited and outside our little world is not recognized as > anything more than a paper mill. > The OMD degree was what the available degree at that time. I think > the world was a little different than most of the new graduate > understand. My DOM is the same type of useless paper so i am not > trying to just dis others. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 In a message dated 5/17/2006 10:44:46 P.M. Central Daylight Time, writes: I fondly remember while studying for the state board that there were specific indications where when faced with them the protocol was to call an MD! We had a discussion some weeks back about how some practitioner had missed diagnosing cancer, and instead had treated someone for back pain for a very long time without good results. When I asked if missing this kind of diagnosis was going to result in having his license revoked, the answer was " No. " Apparently, acupuncturists are not expected to diagnose WM " conditions, " although this list is filled with topics about such conditions. Sometimes the best thing to do for a patient IS to call an MD. There are things outside the scope of CM that are better treated by WM and it is in the best interests of the patient for you as a doctor to inform, encourage and insist that a patient go that route. Integrating this kind of thinking into practice would be one of the perquisites of being called " Doctor " in the US. Guy Porter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 In a message dated 5/18/2006 9:42:51 A.M. Central Daylight Time, don83407 writes: Soon, people will not go to MD when they have arthritis or other chronic condition, they will go to the one who is best for that condition. That is us. I wholeheartedly agree with your post. The sooner that TCM practitioners define their scope to functionally defined diagnosis codes (PME, IBS, various rheumatological disorders) the better it will be for everyone. Guy Porter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Totally agree. A voice of responsibility. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM - DrGRPorter Thursday, May 18, 2006 5:33 AM Chinese Medicine Re: grandfathering in as an doctor In a message dated 5/17/2006 10:44:46 P.M. Central Daylight Time, writes: I fondly remember while studying for the state board that there were specific indications where when faced with them the protocol was to call an MD! We had a discussion some weeks back about how some practitioner had missed diagnosing cancer, and instead had treated someone for back pain for a very long time without good results. When I asked if missing this kind of diagnosis was going to result in having his license revoked, the answer was " No. " Apparently, acupuncturists are not expected to diagnose WM " conditions, " although this list is filled with topics about such conditions. Sometimes the best thing to do for a patient IS to call an MD. There are things outside the scope of CM that are better treated by WM and it is in the best interests of the patient for you as a doctor to inform, encourage and insist that a patient go that route. Integrating this kind of thinking into practice would be one of the perquisites of being called " Doctor " in the US. Guy Porter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 You're right, but we have to start somewhere. Do we not? And frankly, that extra 2 years of education was well worth it. The DAOM is not a paper mill. People do flunk out or attrit. Also, I received knowledge from the program that I didn't have before. Is that not the point of a degree? In the world, titles lend legitimacy. Whether one agrees or not, it is reality. When someone with a Bachelor's degree speaks or writes and someone with a Master's degree writes and article in disagreement. Who's word has the authority to carry the day? The Master's degree. The same with a doctorate. Right or wrong, that's simply life as we know it. It is the same in TCM, and hopefully, the DAOM made me an even better practitioner. I know that during my stint in the program, the patients certainly realized better outcomes from the DAOM students than they did the Master's students. We couldn't treat all the patients that desire DAOM practitioners. That is as it should be. To really evaluate the program fairly, one must actually try it, or at least view the curriculum of the program. I like using the doctor title. I earned it. It was not given to me and I did not assume it. Thanks, Dr. Don Snow, DAOM - Wednesday, May 17, 2006 9:19 PM Chinese Medicine Re: grandfathering in as an doctor Yehuda The DAOM as is now will not give you any legal cover to make the decisions you long for. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:44 PM grandfathering in as an doctor Barb, It's not so. That scenario might have been possible 15 years or so ago, but the window is now firmly shut. The information I just posted before comes from the director of one of the prominent DAOM programs and we will be given a choice: " you want a doctorate? You rise to the occasion. " No free rides anymore. But ya know what? I think it's a good thing to raise the standard and to differentiate between those who just want a license to practice acupuncture and those who seek much more--to be real doctors. Though then, it might have been genuinely unequal and unfair for us not to have been called doctors, though chiropractors were, now, in the present terrain don't you think that it would be disingenuous to suddenly change the law and voila! you're a doctor and a primary care physician capable of making life and death decisions? I fondly remember while studying for the state board that there were specific indications where when faced with them the protocol was to call an MD! I long for the day, when I am able and legally capable of resolving these emergency situations myself. Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac. Barb <bbeale wrote: I don't believe that it can be a requirement to anyone currently practicing to go back to school to earn a doctorate. If anyone has any example in other professions to prove me wrong, please do. Every time I've voiced concern over this scenario, I've been calmed down with the response, " You'll be 'grand-fatherered in'. " _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:47 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow Alon, I've heard through the grapevine that the DAOM may become a required degree in California within five years. Almost certainly, to teach in California schools, it will be necessary. I am not too happy to be in my 50's with a more than full time practice plus teaching position to think about going back to school again. On May 17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, wrote: > The OMD is as useless and new DAOM, neither one is regionally > accredited and outside our little world is not recognized as > anything more than a paper mill. > The OMD degree was what the available degree at that time. I think > the world was a little different than most of the new graduate > understand. My DOM is the same type of useless paper so i am not > trying to just dis others. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 I've often heard the expression. " When there is an emergency, you send the patient to an MD, not an acupuncturist. " This is a little dissengenuous. When the is an emergency, I send the patient to an MD trained in emergency medicine, not a dermatologist or GP, though all are MD's. I send them to the " specialist " that they need. Cut yourselves a break, we are just a specialized medicine. Soon, people will not go to MD when they have arthritis or other chronic condition, they will go to the one who is best for that condition. That is us. Thanks, Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM - yehuda frischman Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:44 PM Chinese Medicine grandfathering in as an doctor Barb, It's not so. That scenario might have been possible 15 years or so ago, but the window is now firmly shut. The information I just posted before comes from the director of one of the prominent DAOM programs and we will be given a choice: " you want a doctorate? You rise to the occasion. " No free rides anymore. But ya know what? I think it's a good thing to raise the standard and to differentiate between those who just want a license to practice acupuncture and those who seek much more--to be real doctors. Though then, it might have been genuinely unequal and unfair for us not to have been called doctors, though chiropractors were, now, in the present terrain don't you think that it would be disingenuous to suddenly change the law and voila! you're a doctor and a primary care physician capable of making life and death decisions? I fondly remember while studying for the state board that there were specific indications where when faced with them the protocol was to call an MD! I long for the day, when I am able and legally capable of resolving these emergency situations myself. Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac. Barb <bbeale wrote: I don't believe that it can be a requirement to anyone currently practicing to go back to school to earn a doctorate. If anyone has any example in other professions to prove me wrong, please do. Every time I've voiced concern over this scenario, I've been calmed down with the response, " You'll be 'grand-fatherered in'. " _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:47 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow Alon, I've heard through the grapevine that the DAOM may become a required degree in California within five years. Almost certainly, to teach in California schools, it will be necessary. I am not too happy to be in my 50's with a more than full time practice plus teaching position to think about going back to school again. On May 17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, wrote: > The OMD is as useless and new DAOM, neither one is regionally > accredited and outside our little world is not recognized as > anything more than a paper mill. > The OMD degree was what the available degree at that time. I think > the world was a little different than most of the new graduate > understand. My DOM is the same type of useless paper so i am not > trying to just dis others. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 I would suggest that as well as better clinical outcomes, DAOM candidates should also make it their business to guide the education of the master's candidates as well. Rather than being considered a elite corps apart, by articulating diagnostic and treatment protocols our quality of education grows from the bottom up. It is absurdly easy to get into most master's programs in TCM, but the schools need students and so there is the obvious money factor, but let there be yet one more level of supervision and clinical guidance: Those who don't belong will be out sooner, and those who do will be much more competent and ready to treat patients. Yehuda Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: You're right, but we have to start somewhere. Do we not? And frankly, that extra 2 years of education was well worth it. The DAOM is not a paper mill. People do flunk out or attrit. Also, I received knowledge from the program that I didn't have before. Is that not the point of a degree? In the world, titles lend legitimacy. Whether one agrees or not, it is reality. When someone with a Bachelor's degree speaks or writes and someone with a Master's degree writes and article in disagreement. Who's word has the authority to carry the day? The Master's degree. The same with a doctorate. Right or wrong, that's simply life as we know it. It is the same in TCM, and hopefully, the DAOM made me an even better practitioner. I know that during my stint in the program, the patients certainly realized better outcomes from the DAOM students than they did the Master's students. We couldn't treat all the patients that desire DAOM practitioners. That is as it should be. To really evaluate the program fairly, one must actually try it, or at least view the curriculum of the program. I like using the doctor title. I earned it. It was not given to me and I did not assume it. Thanks, Dr. Don Snow, DAOM - Wednesday, May 17, 2006 9:19 PM Chinese Medicine Re: grandfathering in as an doctor Yehuda The DAOM as is now will not give you any legal cover to make the decisions you long for. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:44 PM grandfathering in as an doctor Barb, It's not so. That scenario might have been possible 15 years or so ago, but the window is now firmly shut. The information I just posted before comes from the director of one of the prominent DAOM programs and we will be given a choice: " you want a doctorate? You rise to the occasion. " No free rides anymore. But ya know what? I think it's a good thing to raise the standard and to differentiate between those who just want a license to practice acupuncture and those who seek much more--to be real doctors. Though then, it might have been genuinely unequal and unfair for us not to have been called doctors, though chiropractors were, now, in the present terrain don't you think that it would be disingenuous to suddenly change the law and voila! you're a doctor and a primary care physician capable of making life and death decisions? I fondly remember while studying for the state board that there were specific indications where when faced with them the protocol was to call an MD! I long for the day, when I am able and legally capable of resolving these emergency situations myself. Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac. Barb <bbeale wrote: I don't believe that it can be a requirement to anyone currently practicing to go back to school to earn a doctorate. If anyone has any example in other professions to prove me wrong, please do. Every time I've voiced concern over this scenario, I've been calmed down with the response, " You'll be 'grand-fatherered in'. " _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:47 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow Alon, I've heard through the grapevine that the DAOM may become a required degree in California within five years. Almost certainly, to teach in California schools, it will be necessary. I am not too happy to be in my 50's with a more than full time practice plus teaching position to think about going back to school again. On May 17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, wrote: > The OMD is as useless and new DAOM, neither one is regionally > accredited and outside our little world is not recognized as > anything more than a paper mill. > The OMD degree was what the available degree at that time. I think > the world was a little different than most of the new graduate > understand. My DOM is the same type of useless paper so i am not > trying to just dis others. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Shouldn't doctoral canditdates also be trained in basic emergency medicine, particularly in applications that directly relate to what we do? This is what I am referring to. Just like every MD has to do a residency in emergency medicine, so should our doctors! Y Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: I've often heard the expression. " When there is an emergency, you send the patient to an MD, not an acupuncturist. " This is a little dissengenuous. When the is an emergency, I send the patient to an MD trained in emergency medicine, not a dermatologist or GP, though all are MD's. I send them to the " specialist " that they need. Cut yourselves a break, we are just a specialized medicine. Soon, people will not go to MD when they have arthritis or other chronic condition, they will go to the one who is best for that condition. That is us. Thanks, Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM - yehuda frischman Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:44 PM Chinese Medicine grandfathering in as an doctor Barb, It's not so. That scenario might have been possible 15 years or so ago, but the window is now firmly shut. The information I just posted before comes from the director of one of the prominent DAOM programs and we will be given a choice: " you want a doctorate? You rise to the occasion. " No free rides anymore. But ya know what? I think it's a good thing to raise the standard and to differentiate between those who just want a license to practice acupuncture and those who seek much more--to be real doctors. Though then, it might have been genuinely unequal and unfair for us not to have been called doctors, though chiropractors were, now, in the present terrain don't you think that it would be disingenuous to suddenly change the law and voila! you're a doctor and a primary care physician capable of making life and death decisions? I fondly remember while studying for the state board that there were specific indications where when faced with them the protocol was to call an MD! I long for the day, when I am able and legally capable of resolving these emergency situations myself. Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac. Barb <bbeale wrote: I don't believe that it can be a requirement to anyone currently practicing to go back to school to earn a doctorate. If anyone has any example in other professions to prove me wrong, please do. Every time I've voiced concern over this scenario, I've been calmed down with the response, " You'll be 'grand-fatherered in'. " _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:47 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow Alon, I've heard through the grapevine that the DAOM may become a required degree in California within five years. Almost certainly, to teach in California schools, it will be necessary. I am not too happy to be in my 50's with a more than full time practice plus teaching position to think about going back to school again. On May 17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, wrote: > The OMD is as useless and new DAOM, neither one is regionally > accredited and outside our little world is not recognized as > anything more than a paper mill. > The OMD degree was what the available degree at that time. I think > the world was a little different than most of the new graduate > understand. My DOM is the same type of useless paper so i am not > trying to just dis others. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 The old DOM or OMDs where not given either. I for one traveled to china worked in a hospital 6 days a week for 8 hours a day and than had to write a dissertation. I learned a lot from the process. Still the degree has no real meaning because its not a recognized degree. If i try to enrol in any higher education university they will not except any of the credits. If we want to be part of the larger medical system we just have to play by the rules they set up for all professions. Sorry which it was otherwise Oakland, CA 94609 - Donald Snow Chinese Medicine Thursday, May 18, 2006 7:25 AM Re: grandfathering in as an doctor You're right, but we have to start somewhere. Do we not? And frankly, that extra 2 years of education was well worth it. The DAOM is not a paper mill. People do flunk out or attrit. Also, I received knowledge from the program that I didn't have before. Is that not the point of a degree? In the world, titles lend legitimacy. Whether one agrees or not, it is reality. When someone with a Bachelor's degree speaks or writes and someone with a Master's degree writes and article in disagreement. Who's word has the authority to carry the day? The Master's degree. The same with a doctorate. Right or wrong, that's simply life as we know it. It is the same in TCM, and hopefully, the DAOM made me an even better practitioner. I know that during my stint in the program, the patients certainly realized better outcomes from the DAOM students than they did the Master's students. We couldn't treat all the patients that desire DAOM practitioners. That is as it should be. To really evaluate the program fairly, one must actually try it, or at least view the curriculum of the program. I like using the doctor title. I earned it. It was not given to me and I did not assume it. Thanks, Dr. Don Snow, DAOM - Wednesday, May 17, 2006 9:19 PM Chinese Medicine Re: grandfathering in as an doctor Yehuda The DAOM as is now will not give you any legal cover to make the decisions you long for. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:44 PM grandfathering in as an doctor Barb, It's not so. That scenario might have been possible 15 years or so ago, but the window is now firmly shut. The information I just posted before comes from the director of one of the prominent DAOM programs and we will be given a choice: " you want a doctorate? You rise to the occasion. " No free rides anymore. But ya know what? I think it's a good thing to raise the standard and to differentiate between those who just want a license to practice acupuncture and those who seek much more--to be real doctors. Though then, it might have been genuinely unequal and unfair for us not to have been called doctors, though chiropractors were, now, in the present terrain don't you think that it would be disingenuous to suddenly change the law and voila! you're a doctor and a primary care physician capable of making life and death decisions? I fondly remember while studying for the state board that there were specific indications where when faced with them the protocol was to call an MD! I long for the day, when I am able and legally capable of resolving these emergency situations myself. Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac. Barb <bbeale wrote: I don't believe that it can be a requirement to anyone currently practicing to go back to school to earn a doctorate. If anyone has any example in other professions to prove me wrong, please do. Every time I've voiced concern over this scenario, I've been calmed down with the response, " You'll be 'grand-fatherered in'. " _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:47 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow Alon, I've heard through the grapevine that the DAOM may become a required degree in California within five years. Almost certainly, to teach in California schools, it will be necessary. I am not too happy to be in my 50's with a more than full time practice plus teaching position to think about going back to school again. On May 17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, wrote: > The OMD is as useless and new DAOM, neither one is regionally > accredited and outside our little world is not recognized as > anything more than a paper mill. > The OMD degree was what the available degree at that time. I think > the world was a little different than most of the new graduate > understand. My DOM is the same type of useless paper so i am not > trying to just dis others. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 I wasn't inferring that those of us with MS degrees would be grandfathered in as " doctors " , nor would I want to be. The fear, as I've perceived it, is that then only those with " doctorates " would be permitted to practice and those of us with many years of practice would be required to return to school if we wanted to continue pracice. My point was that perhaps new licensees would be required to have a doctorate, but the rest of us already in practice would be " grandfathered " into continued licensure. Barb, > > It's not so. That scenario might have been possible 15 years or so > ago, but the window is now firmly shut. The information I just posted > before comes from the director of one of the prominent DAOM programs > and we will be given a choice: & quot;you want a doctorate? You rise to > the occasion. & quot; No free rides anymore. But ya know what? I think > it's a good thing to raise the standard and to differentiate between > those who just want a license to practice acupuncture and those who > seek much more--to be real doctors. Though then, it might have been > genuinely unequal and unfair for us not to have been called doctors, > though chiropractors were, now, in the present terrain don't you think > that it would be disingenuous to suddenly change the law and voila! > you're a doctor and a primary care physician capable of making life and > death decisions? I fondly remember while studying for the state > board that there were specific indications where when faced with them > the protocol was to > call an MD! > > I long for the day, when I am able and legally capable of resolving > these emergency situations myself. > > Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac. > > Barb wrote: > I don't believe that it can be a requirement to anyone currently > practicing > to go back to school to earn a doctorate. If anyone has any example in > other professions to prove me wrong, please do. Every time I've voiced > concern over this scenario, I've been calmed down with the response, > & quot;You'll > be 'grand-fatherered in'. & quot; > > > > _____ > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev > Rosenberg > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:47 PM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow > > > > Alon, > I've heard through the grapevine that the DAOM may become a > required degree in California within five years. Almost certainly, > to teach in California schools, it will be necessary. I am not too > happy to be in my 50's with a more than full time practice plus > teaching position to think about going back to school again. > > > On May 17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, wrote: > > > The OMD is as useless and new DAOM, neither one is regionally > > accredited and outside our little world is not recognized as > > anything more than a paper mill. > > The OMD degree was what the available degree at that time. I think > > the world was a little different than most of the new graduate > > understand. My DOM is the same type of useless paper so i am not > > trying to just dis others. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 The implication of " grandfathering " is that one who already has a certain license will keep the rights previously granted with that license. bbeale wrote: I wasn't inferring that those of us with MS degrees would be grandfathered in as " doctors " , nor would I want to be. The fear, as I've perceived it, is that then only those with " doctorates " would be permitted to practice and those of us with many years of practice would be required to return to school if we wanted to continue pracice. My point was that perhaps new licensees would be required to have a doctorate, but the rest of us already in practice would be " grandfathered " into continued licensure. Barb, > > It's not so. That scenario might have been possible 15 years or so > ago, but the window is now firmly shut. The information I just posted > before comes from the director of one of the prominent DAOM programs > and we will be given a choice: & quot;you want a doctorate? You rise to > the occasion. & quot; No free rides anymore. But ya know what? I think > it's a good thing to raise the standard and to differentiate between > those who just want a license to practice acupuncture and those who > seek much more--to be real doctors. Though then, it might have been > genuinely unequal and unfair for us not to have been called doctors, > though chiropractors were, now, in the present terrain don't you think > that it would be disingenuous to suddenly change the law and voila! > you're a doctor and a primary care physician capable of making life and > death decisions? I fondly remember while studying for the state > board that there were specific indications where when faced with them > the protocol was to > call an MD! > > I long for the day, when I am able and legally capable of resolving > these emergency situations myself. > > Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac. > > Barb wrote: > I don't believe that it can be a requirement to anyone currently > practicing > to go back to school to earn a doctorate. If anyone has any example in > other professions to prove me wrong, please do. Every time I've voiced > concern over this scenario, I've been calmed down with the response, > & quot;You'll > be 'grand-fatherered in'. & quot; > > > > _____ > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev > Rosenberg > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:47 PM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow > > > > Alon, > I've heard through the grapevine that the DAOM may become a > required degree in California within five years. Almost certainly, > to teach in California schools, it will be necessary. I am not too > happy to be in my 50's with a more than full time practice plus > teaching position to think about going back to school again. > > > On May 17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, wrote: > > > The OMD is as useless and new DAOM, neither one is regionally > > accredited and outside our little world is not recognized as > > anything more than a paper mill. > > The OMD degree was what the available degree at that time. I think > > the world was a little different than most of the new graduate > > understand. My DOM is the same type of useless paper so i am not > > trying to just dis others. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 Yes, we were trained in some emergency medicine, and it should be made a specialty. And of course, we all must be trained in emergency first aid and CPR. Remember, any 3 month EMT course teaches emergency medicine. What is it, exactly, that you want to be able to do? Dr. Don Snow, DAOM - yehuda frischman Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:29 PM Chinese Medicine Re: grandfathering in as an doctor Shouldn't doctoral canditdates also be trained in basic emergency medicine, particularly in applications that directly relate to what we do? This is what I am referring to. Just like every MD has to do a residency in emergency medicine, so should our doctors! Y Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: I've often heard the expression. " When there is an emergency, you send the patient to an MD, not an acupuncturist. " This is a little dissengenuous. When the is an emergency, I send the patient to an MD trained in emergency medicine, not a dermatologist or GP, though all are MD's. I send them to the " specialist " that they need. Cut yourselves a break, we are just a specialized medicine. Soon, people will not go to MD when they have arthritis or other chronic condition, they will go to the one who is best for that condition. That is us. Thanks, Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM - yehuda frischman Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:44 PM Chinese Medicine grandfathering in as an doctor Barb, It's not so. That scenario might have been possible 15 years or so ago, but the window is now firmly shut. The information I just posted before comes from the director of one of the prominent DAOM programs and we will be given a choice: " you want a doctorate? You rise to the occasion. " No free rides anymore. But ya know what? I think it's a good thing to raise the standard and to differentiate between those who just want a license to practice acupuncture and those who seek much more--to be real doctors. Though then, it might have been genuinely unequal and unfair for us not to have been called doctors, though chiropractors were, now, in the present terrain don't you think that it would be disingenuous to suddenly change the law and voila! you're a doctor and a primary care physician capable of making life and death decisions? I fondly remember while studying for the state board that there were specific indications where when faced with them the protocol was to call an MD! I long for the day, when I am able and legally capable of resolving these emergency situations myself. Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac. Barb <bbeale wrote: I don't believe that it can be a requirement to anyone currently practicing to go back to school to earn a doctorate. If anyone has any example in other professions to prove me wrong, please do. Every time I've voiced concern over this scenario, I've been calmed down with the response, " You'll be 'grand-fatherered in'. " _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:47 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow Alon, I've heard through the grapevine that the DAOM may become a required degree in California within five years. Almost certainly, to teach in California schools, it will be necessary. I am not too happy to be in my 50's with a more than full time practice plus teaching position to think about going back to school again. On May 17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, wrote: > The OMD is as useless and new DAOM, neither one is regionally > accredited and outside our little world is not recognized as > anything more than a paper mill. > The OMD degree was what the available degree at that time. I think > the world was a little different than most of the new graduate > understand. My DOM is the same type of useless paper so i am not > trying to just dis others. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 Minor surgery, for one, such a being able to remove broken needles beneath the skin. Also I think that the emergency skills of a DOAM should be equivalent to a paramedic. Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: Yes, we were trained in some emergency medicine, and it should be made a specialty. And of course, we all must be trained in emergency first aid and CPR. Remember, any 3 month EMT course teaches emergency medicine. What is it, exactly, that you want to be able to do? Dr. Don Snow, DAOM - yehuda frischman Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:29 PM Chinese Medicine Re: grandfathering in as an doctor Shouldn't doctoral canditdates also be trained in basic emergency medicine, particularly in applications that directly relate to what we do? This is what I am referring to. Just like every MD has to do a residency in emergency medicine, so should our doctors! Y Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: I've often heard the expression. " When there is an emergency, you send the patient to an MD, not an acupuncturist. " This is a little dissengenuous. When the is an emergency, I send the patient to an MD trained in emergency medicine, not a dermatologist or GP, though all are MD's. I send them to the " specialist " that they need. Cut yourselves a break, we are just a specialized medicine. Soon, people will not go to MD when they have arthritis or other chronic condition, they will go to the one who is best for that condition. That is us. Thanks, Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM - yehuda frischman Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:44 PM Chinese Medicine grandfathering in as an doctor Barb, It's not so. That scenario might have been possible 15 years or so ago, but the window is now firmly shut. The information I just posted before comes from the director of one of the prominent DAOM programs and we will be given a choice: " you want a doctorate? You rise to the occasion. " No free rides anymore. But ya know what? I think it's a good thing to raise the standard and to differentiate between those who just want a license to practice acupuncture and those who seek much more--to be real doctors. Though then, it might have been genuinely unequal and unfair for us not to have been called doctors, though chiropractors were, now, in the present terrain don't you think that it would be disingenuous to suddenly change the law and voila! you're a doctor and a primary care physician capable of making life and death decisions? I fondly remember while studying for the state board that there were specific indications where when faced with them the protocol was to call an MD! I long for the day, when I am able and legally capable of resolving these emergency situations myself. Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac. Barb <bbeale wrote: I don't believe that it can be a requirement to anyone currently practicing to go back to school to earn a doctorate. If anyone has any example in other professions to prove me wrong, please do. Every time I've voiced concern over this scenario, I've been calmed down with the response, " You'll be 'grand-fatherered in'. " _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:47 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow Alon, I've heard through the grapevine that the DAOM may become a required degree in California within five years. Almost certainly, to teach in California schools, it will be necessary. I am not too happy to be in my 50's with a more than full time practice plus teaching position to think about going back to school again. On May 17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, wrote: > The OMD is as useless and new DAOM, neither one is regionally > accredited and outside our little world is not recognized as > anything more than a paper mill. > The OMD degree was what the available degree at that time. I think > the world was a little different than most of the new graduate > understand. My DOM is the same type of useless paper so i am not > trying to just dis others. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 Yehuda there are acupu " surgical " techniques as well. It would be nice to be able to do these as well especially if you are in pain medicine Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Friday, May 19, 2006 12:49 AM Re: grandfathering in as an doctor Minor surgery, for one, such a being able to remove broken needles beneath the skin. Also I think that the emergency skills of a DOAM should be equivalent to a paramedic. Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: Yes, we were trained in some emergency medicine, and it should be made a specialty. And of course, we all must be trained in emergency first aid and CPR. Remember, any 3 month EMT course teaches emergency medicine. What is it, exactly, that you want to be able to do? Dr. Don Snow, DAOM - yehuda frischman Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:29 PM Chinese Medicine Re: grandfathering in as an doctor Shouldn't doctoral canditdates also be trained in basic emergency medicine, particularly in applications that directly relate to what we do? This is what I am referring to. Just like every MD has to do a residency in emergency medicine, so should our doctors! Y Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: I've often heard the expression. " When there is an emergency, you send the patient to an MD, not an acupuncturist. " This is a little dissengenuous. When the is an emergency, I send the patient to an MD trained in emergency medicine, not a dermatologist or GP, though all are MD's. I send them to the " specialist " that they need. Cut yourselves a break, we are just a specialized medicine. Soon, people will not go to MD when they have arthritis or other chronic condition, they will go to the one who is best for that condition. That is us. Thanks, Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM - yehuda frischman Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:44 PM Chinese Medicine grandfathering in as an doctor Barb, It's not so. That scenario might have been possible 15 years or so ago, but the window is now firmly shut. The information I just posted before comes from the director of one of the prominent DAOM programs and we will be given a choice: " you want a doctorate? You rise to the occasion. " No free rides anymore. But ya know what? I think it's a good thing to raise the standard and to differentiate between those who just want a license to practice acupuncture and those who seek much more--to be real doctors. Though then, it might have been genuinely unequal and unfair for us not to have been called doctors, though chiropractors were, now, in the present terrain don't you think that it would be disingenuous to suddenly change the law and voila! you're a doctor and a primary care physician capable of making life and death decisions? I fondly remember while studying for the state board that there were specific indications where when faced with them the protocol was to call an MD! I long for the day, when I am able and legally capable of resolving these emergency situations myself. Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac. Barb <bbeale wrote: I don't believe that it can be a requirement to anyone currently practicing to go back to school to earn a doctorate. If anyone has any example in other professions to prove me wrong, please do. Every time I've voiced concern over this scenario, I've been calmed down with the response, " You'll be 'grand-fatherered in'. " _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:47 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow Alon, I've heard through the grapevine that the DAOM may become a required degree in California within five years. Almost certainly, to teach in California schools, it will be necessary. I am not too happy to be in my 50's with a more than full time practice plus teaching position to think about going back to school again. On May 17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, wrote: > The OMD is as useless and new DAOM, neither one is regionally > accredited and outside our little world is not recognized as > anything more than a paper mill. > The OMD degree was what the available degree at that time. I think > the world was a little different than most of the new graduate > understand. My DOM is the same type of useless paper so i am not > trying to just dis others. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 And of course, injectables, and more than what is acceptable in New Mexico: Procaine or nutriceuticals into acupuncture points, but rather, being allowed to inject appropriately prepared and sterile herbal medicines as they do in China, which is REAL emergency medicine. YLF <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda there are acupu " surgical " techniques as well. It would be nice to be able to do these as well especially if you are in pain medicine Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Friday, May 19, 2006 12:49 AM Re: grandfathering in as an doctor Minor surgery, for one, such a being able to remove broken needles beneath the skin. Also I think that the emergency skills of a DOAM should be equivalent to a paramedic. Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: Yes, we were trained in some emergency medicine, and it should be made a specialty. And of course, we all must be trained in emergency first aid and CPR. Remember, any 3 month EMT course teaches emergency medicine. What is it, exactly, that you want to be able to do? Dr. Don Snow, DAOM - yehuda frischman Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:29 PM Chinese Medicine Re: grandfathering in as an doctor Shouldn't doctoral canditdates also be trained in basic emergency medicine, particularly in applications that directly relate to what we do? This is what I am referring to. Just like every MD has to do a residency in emergency medicine, so should our doctors! Y Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: I've often heard the expression. " When there is an emergency, you send the patient to an MD, not an acupuncturist. " This is a little dissengenuous. When the is an emergency, I send the patient to an MD trained in emergency medicine, not a dermatologist or GP, though all are MD's. I send them to the " specialist " that they need. Cut yourselves a break, we are just a specialized medicine. Soon, people will not go to MD when they have arthritis or other chronic condition, they will go to the one who is best for that condition. That is us. Thanks, Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM - yehuda frischman Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:44 PM Chinese Medicine grandfathering in as an doctor Barb, It's not so. That scenario might have been possible 15 years or so ago, but the window is now firmly shut. The information I just posted before comes from the director of one of the prominent DAOM programs and we will be given a choice: " you want a doctorate? You rise to the occasion. " No free rides anymore. But ya know what? I think it's a good thing to raise the standard and to differentiate between those who just want a license to practice acupuncture and those who seek much more--to be real doctors. Though then, it might have been genuinely unequal and unfair for us not to have been called doctors, though chiropractors were, now, in the present terrain don't you think that it would be disingenuous to suddenly change the law and voila! you're a doctor and a primary care physician capable of making life and death decisions? I fondly remember while studying for the state board that there were specific indications where when faced with them the protocol was to call an MD! I long for the day, when I am able and legally capable of resolving these emergency situations myself. Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac. Barb <bbeale wrote: I don't believe that it can be a requirement to anyone currently practicing to go back to school to earn a doctorate. If anyone has any example in other professions to prove me wrong, please do. Every time I've voiced concern over this scenario, I've been calmed down with the response, " You'll be 'grand-fatherered in'. " _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:47 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow Alon, I've heard through the grapevine that the DAOM may become a required degree in California within five years. Almost certainly, to teach in California schools, it will be necessary. I am not too happy to be in my 50's with a more than full time practice plus teaching position to think about going back to school again. On May 17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, wrote: > The OMD is as useless and new DAOM, neither one is regionally > accredited and outside our little world is not recognized as > anything more than a paper mill. > The OMD degree was what the available degree at that time. I think > the world was a little different than most of the new graduate > understand. My DOM is the same type of useless paper so i am not > trying to just dis others. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 Exactly… _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of yehuda frischman Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:53 PM Chinese Medicine Re: grandfathering in as an doctor The implication of " grandfathering " is that one who already has a certain license will keep the rights previously granted with that license. bbeale wrote: I wasn't inferring that those of us with MS degrees would be grandfathered in as " doctors " , nor would I want to be. The fear, as I've perceived it, is that then only those with " doctorates " would be permitted to practice and those of us with many years of practice would be required to return to school if we wanted to continue pracice. My point was that perhaps new licensees would be required to have a doctorate, but the rest of us already in practice would be " grandfathered " into continued licensure. Barb, > > It's not so. That scenario might have been possible 15 years or so > ago, but the window is now firmly shut. The information I just posted > before comes from the director of one of the prominent DAOM programs > and we will be given a choice: & quot;you want a doctorate? You rise to > the occasion. & quot; No free rides anymore. But ya know what? I think > it's a good thing to raise the standard and to differentiate between > those who just want a license to practice acupuncture and those who > seek much more--to be real doctors. Though then, it might have been > genuinely unequal and unfair for us not to have been called doctors, > though chiropractors were, now, in the present terrain don't you think > that it would be disingenuous to suddenly change the law and voila! > you're a doctor and a primary care physician capable of making life and > death decisions? I fondly remember while studying for the state > board that there were specific indications where when faced with them > the protocol was to > call an MD! > > I long for the day, when I am able and legally capable of resolving > these emergency situations myself. > > Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac. > > Barb wrote: > I don't believe that it can be a requirement to anyone currently > practicing > to go back to school to earn a doctorate. If anyone has any example in > other professions to prove me wrong, please do. Every time I've voiced > concern over this scenario, I've been calmed down with the response, > & quot;You'll > be 'grand-fatherered in'. & quot; > > > > _____ > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev > Rosenberg > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:47 PM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow > > > > Alon, > I've heard through the grapevine that the DAOM may become a > required degree in California within five years. Almost certainly, > to teach in California schools, it will be necessary. I am not too > happy to be in my 50's with a more than full time practice plus > teaching position to think about going back to school again. > > > On May 17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, wrote: > > > The OMD is as useless and new DAOM, neither one is regionally > > accredited and outside our little world is not recognized as > > anything more than a paper mill. > > The OMD degree was what the available degree at that time. I think > > the world was a little different than most of the new graduate > > understand. My DOM is the same type of useless paper so i am not > > trying to just dis others. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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