Guest guest Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 What does placebo really mean? It is usually thrown around by researchers as a way to dismiss or control for the very real and powerful forces of the human bodies own ability to heal itself. " Just believing " is not the same as placebo. I have no doubt that we all have the innate capacity to heal from bacterial infections and hepatitis. We may just need a little reminding. That's not to say I wouldn't seek out antibiotics for myself or my family, it is just that I want all my horses running in the same direction. When I get sick, I see it as a message my body is communicating to me. " Slow down " , " pay attention " , " resolve this issue " . The problem is that most of us don't view sickness this way and just work at killing the messenger (the pain, illness etc.) Why not use illness as an opportunity to reconnect with our source instead of reinforcing our and societies disconnect? The fact is that human beings have within them the power to heal and be healed. How this power is activated involves many factors and is very individualized. A profound trust and belief in the medicine being one of them (placebo). The will to live is the number one determinate of long term survival of cancer patients. How can this be the case if the drugs and radiation is what " cures " them? A study done in 1950 (Journal of Clinical Investigation; 1950; 29; 100-109) showed that placebo was powerful enough to turn ipecac which is normally used to induce vomiting into a drug that stopped nausea. http://www.wrf.org/news/news0017.htm is an interesting article about the power of placebo. Instead of dismissing placebo as " not real " , I believe it should be studied to find out how to maximize it's benefits in healing. Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of daomsnow Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:31 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even) needling) You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all medicines. However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo is not the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the belief. The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, try " just believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the medicine thank you. Dr. Snow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 no. it is used to compare an active treatment to noneactive treatment. The problem is that any time one inserts a needle there is some effects. The question is do you need any training or a monkey can do as well. That is what a placebo is. Placebo does not mean there is no clinical effects as any drug study will show you. In some studies it has been as high as 70%. The other thing is that the effects of placebo usually do not last. It is therefore still a useful tool, however not the endall Oakland, CA 94609 - Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. Chinese Medicine Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:50 PM Placebo? What does placebo really mean? It is usually thrown around by researchers as a way to dismiss or control for the very real and powerful forces of the human bodies own ability to heal itself. " Just believing " is not the same as placebo. I have no doubt that we all have the innate capacity to heal from bacterial infections and hepatitis. We may just need a little reminding. That's not to say I wouldn't seek out antibiotics for myself or my family, it is just that I want all my horses running in the same direction. When I get sick, I see it as a message my body is communicating to me. " Slow down " , " pay attention " , " resolve this issue " . The problem is that most of us don't view sickness this way and just work at killing the messenger (the pain, illness etc.) Why not use illness as an opportunity to reconnect with our source instead of reinforcing our and societies disconnect? The fact is that human beings have within them the power to heal and be healed. How this power is activated involves many factors and is very individualized. A profound trust and belief in the medicine being one of them (placebo). The will to live is the number one determinate of long term survival of cancer patients. How can this be the case if the drugs and radiation is what " cures " them? A study done in 1950 (Journal of Clinical Investigation; 1950; 29; 100-109) showed that placebo was powerful enough to turn ipecac which is normally used to induce vomiting into a drug that stopped nausea. http://www.wrf.org/news/news0017.htm is an interesting article about the power of placebo. Instead of dismissing placebo as " not real " , I believe it should be studied to find out how to maximize it's benefits in healing. Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of daomsnow Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:31 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even) needling) You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all medicines. However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo is not the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the belief. The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, try " just believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the medicine thank you. Dr. Snow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 No Alon, the points made initially were twofold, point one was that a monkey or robot inserting needles into the same acupuncture points would always yield the same results as an extremely skilled practitioner. You make your own mind up on that one, but I certainly believe that there is more to acupuncture than accurate point location. I do think that its important, but also believe there is something else at play - and that as the texts say " the Yi moves the Qi. " Point two, was that belief and intention are totally irrelevant. As you correctly point out its not irrelevant and can account for up to 70% of any clinical effect. - " " <alonmarcus <Chinese Medicine > Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:04 AM Re: Placebo? > no. it is used to compare an active treatment to noneactive treatment. The > problem is that any time one inserts a needle there is some effects. The > question is do you need any training or a monkey can do as well. That is > what a placebo is. Placebo does not mean there is no clinical effects as > any drug study will show you. In some studies it has been as high as 70%. > The other thing is that the effects of placebo usually do not last. It is > therefore still a useful tool, however not the endall > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. > Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:50 PM > Placebo? > > > What does placebo really mean? It is usually thrown around by > researchers as a way to dismiss or control for the very real and > powerful forces of the human bodies own ability to heal itself. " Just > believing " is not the same as placebo. I have no doubt that we all have > the innate capacity to heal from bacterial infections and hepatitis. We > may just need a little reminding. That's not to say I wouldn't seek out > antibiotics for myself or my family, it is just that I want all my > horses running in the same direction. When I get sick, I see it as a > message my body is communicating to me. " Slow down " , " pay attention " , > " resolve this issue " . The problem is that most of us don't view > sickness this way and just work at killing the messenger (the pain, > illness etc.) Why not use illness as an opportunity to reconnect with > our source instead of reinforcing our and societies disconnect? > > The fact is that human beings have within them the power to heal and be > healed. How this power is activated involves many factors and is very > individualized. A profound trust and belief in the medicine being one > of them (placebo). The will to live is the number one determinate of > long term survival of cancer patients. How can this be the case if the > drugs and radiation is what " cures " them? A study done in 1950 (Journal > of Clinical Investigation; 1950; 29; 100-109) showed that placebo was > powerful enough to turn ipecac which is normally used to induce vomiting > into a drug that stopped nausea. > > http://www.wrf.org/news/news0017.htm is an interesting article about the > power of placebo. > > Instead of dismissing placebo as " not real " , I believe it should be > studied to find out how to maximize it's benefits in healing. > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > Oasis Acupuncture > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > Suite D-35 > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > Fax: (480) 247-4472 > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > daomsnow > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:31 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even) > needling) > > > You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all medicines. > However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo is not > the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the belief. > The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, try " just > believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the medicine thank > you. > > > Dr. Snow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Yes. Very well said Dermott. And in my experience the confluence of Yi Breath and Qi instigate the treatment even before the insertion of the needles. The final sequence and pattern of treated points ( spheres of influence) is the outer manifestation of this confluence. The pulses change even prior to insertion. - Dermot O'Connor Chinese Medicine Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:29 PM Re: Placebo? No Alon, the points made initially were twofold, point one was that a monkey or robot inserting needles into the same acupuncture points would always yield the same results as an extremely skilled practitioner. You make your own mind up on that one, but I certainly believe that there is more to acupuncture than accurate point location. I do think that its important, but also believe there is something else at play - and that as the texts say " the Yi moves the Qi. " Point two, was that belief and intention are totally irrelevant. As you correctly point out its not irrelevant and can account for up to 70% of any clinical effect. - " " <alonmarcus <Chinese Medicine > Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:04 AM Re: Placebo? > no. it is used to compare an active treatment to noneactive treatment. The > problem is that any time one inserts a needle there is some effects. The > question is do you need any training or a monkey can do as well. That is > what a placebo is. Placebo does not mean there is no clinical effects as > any drug study will show you. In some studies it has been as high as 70%. > The other thing is that the effects of placebo usually do not last. It is > therefore still a useful tool, however not the endall > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. > Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:50 PM > Placebo? > > > What does placebo really mean? It is usually thrown around by > researchers as a way to dismiss or control for the very real and > powerful forces of the human bodies own ability to heal itself. " Just > believing " is not the same as placebo. I have no doubt that we all have > the innate capacity to heal from bacterial infections and hepatitis. We > may just need a little reminding. That's not to say I wouldn't seek out > antibiotics for myself or my family, it is just that I want all my > horses running in the same direction. When I get sick, I see it as a > message my body is communicating to me. " Slow down " , " pay attention " , > " resolve this issue " . The problem is that most of us don't view > sickness this way and just work at killing the messenger (the pain, > illness etc.) Why not use illness as an opportunity to reconnect with > our source instead of reinforcing our and societies disconnect? > > The fact is that human beings have within them the power to heal and be > healed. How this power is activated involves many factors and is very > individualized. A profound trust and belief in the medicine being one > of them (placebo). The will to live is the number one determinate of > long term survival of cancer patients. How can this be the case if the > drugs and radiation is what " cures " them? A study done in 1950 (Journal > of Clinical Investigation; 1950; 29; 100-109) showed that placebo was > powerful enough to turn ipecac which is normally used to induce vomiting > into a drug that stopped nausea. > > http://www.wrf.org/news/news0017.htm is an interesting article about the > power of placebo. > > Instead of dismissing placebo as " not real " , I believe it should be > studied to find out how to maximize it's benefits in healing. > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > Oasis Acupuncture > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > Suite D-35 > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > Fax: (480) 247-4472 > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > daomsnow > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:31 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even) > needling) > > > You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all medicines. > However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo is not > the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the belief. > The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, try " just > believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the medicine thank > you. > > > Dr. Snow > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 nothing wrong with that the only thing science wants to objectively evaluate is do you get better result than a none train needle sticker. I just don't get the resistance for it. Oakland, CA 94609 - Turiya Hill Chinese Medicine Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:54 PM Re: Placebo? Yes. Very well said Dermott. And in my experience the confluence of Yi Breath and Qi instigate the treatment even before the insertion of the needles. The final sequence and pattern of treated points ( spheres of influence) is the outer manifestation of this confluence. The pulses change even prior to insertion. - Dermot O'Connor Chinese Medicine Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:29 PM Re: Placebo? No Alon, the points made initially were twofold, point one was that a monkey or robot inserting needles into the same acupuncture points would always yield the same results as an extremely skilled practitioner. You make your own mind up on that one, but I certainly believe that there is more to acupuncture than accurate point location. I do think that its important, but also believe there is something else at play - and that as the texts say " the Yi moves the Qi. " Point two, was that belief and intention are totally irrelevant. As you correctly point out its not irrelevant and can account for up to 70% of any clinical effect. - " " <alonmarcus <Chinese Medicine > Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:04 AM Re: Placebo? > no. it is used to compare an active treatment to noneactive treatment. The > problem is that any time one inserts a needle there is some effects. The > question is do you need any training or a monkey can do as well. That is > what a placebo is. Placebo does not mean there is no clinical effects as > any drug study will show you. In some studies it has been as high as 70%. > The other thing is that the effects of placebo usually do not last. It is > therefore still a useful tool, however not the endall > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. > Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:50 PM > Placebo? > > > What does placebo really mean? It is usually thrown around by > researchers as a way to dismiss or control for the very real and > powerful forces of the human bodies own ability to heal itself. " Just > believing " is not the same as placebo. I have no doubt that we all have > the innate capacity to heal from bacterial infections and hepatitis. We > may just need a little reminding. That's not to say I wouldn't seek out > antibiotics for myself or my family, it is just that I want all my > horses running in the same direction. When I get sick, I see it as a > message my body is communicating to me. " Slow down " , " pay attention " , > " resolve this issue " . The problem is that most of us don't view > sickness this way and just work at killing the messenger (the pain, > illness etc.) Why not use illness as an opportunity to reconnect with > our source instead of reinforcing our and societies disconnect? > > The fact is that human beings have within them the power to heal and be > healed. How this power is activated involves many factors and is very > individualized. A profound trust and belief in the medicine being one > of them (placebo). The will to live is the number one determinate of > long term survival of cancer patients. How can this be the case if the > drugs and radiation is what " cures " them? A study done in 1950 (Journal > of Clinical Investigation; 1950; 29; 100-109) showed that placebo was > powerful enough to turn ipecac which is normally used to induce vomiting > into a drug that stopped nausea. > > http://www.wrf.org/news/news0017.htm is an interesting article about the > power of placebo. > > Instead of dismissing placebo as " not real " , I believe it should be > studied to find out how to maximize it's benefits in healing. > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > Oasis Acupuncture > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > Suite D-35 > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > Fax: (480) 247-4472 > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > daomsnow > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:31 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even) > needling) > > > You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all medicines. > However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo is not > the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the belief. > The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, try " just > believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the medicine thank > you. > > > Dr. Snow > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 No resistance from here at all Alon, I welcome scientific evaluation. That was never the point. In fact saying intention and belief is irrelavent simply ignores a scientifically established fact. - " " <alonmarcus <Chinese Medicine > Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:05 AM Re: Placebo? nothing wrong with that the only thing science wants to objectively evaluate is do you get better result than a none train needle sticker. I just don't get the resistance for it. Oakland, CA 94609 - Turiya Hill Chinese Medicine Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:54 PM Re: Placebo? Yes. Very well said Dermott. And in my experience the confluence of Yi Breath and Qi instigate the treatment even before the insertion of the needles. The final sequence and pattern of treated points ( spheres of influence) is the outer manifestation of this confluence. The pulses change even prior to insertion. - Dermot O'Connor Chinese Medicine Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:29 PM Re: Placebo? No Alon, the points made initially were twofold, point one was that a monkey or robot inserting needles into the same acupuncture points would always yield the same results as an extremely skilled practitioner. You make your own mind up on that one, but I certainly believe that there is more to acupuncture than accurate point location. I do think that its important, but also believe there is something else at play - and that as the texts say " the Yi moves the Qi. " Point two, was that belief and intention are totally irrelevant. As you correctly point out its not irrelevant and can account for up to 70% of any clinical effect. - " " <alonmarcus <Chinese Medicine > Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:04 AM Re: Placebo? > no. it is used to compare an active treatment to noneactive treatment. The > problem is that any time one inserts a needle there is some effects. The > question is do you need any training or a monkey can do as well. That is > what a placebo is. Placebo does not mean there is no clinical effects as > any drug study will show you. In some studies it has been as high as 70%. > The other thing is that the effects of placebo usually do not last. It is > therefore still a useful tool, however not the endall > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. > Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:50 PM > Placebo? > > > What does placebo really mean? It is usually thrown around by > researchers as a way to dismiss or control for the very real and > powerful forces of the human bodies own ability to heal itself. " Just > believing " is not the same as placebo. I have no doubt that we all have > the innate capacity to heal from bacterial infections and hepatitis. We > may just need a little reminding. That's not to say I wouldn't seek out > antibiotics for myself or my family, it is just that I want all my > horses running in the same direction. When I get sick, I see it as a > message my body is communicating to me. " Slow down " , " pay attention " , > " resolve this issue " . The problem is that most of us don't view > sickness this way and just work at killing the messenger (the pain, > illness etc.) Why not use illness as an opportunity to reconnect with > our source instead of reinforcing our and societies disconnect? > > The fact is that human beings have within them the power to heal and be > healed. How this power is activated involves many factors and is very > individualized. A profound trust and belief in the medicine being one > of them (placebo). The will to live is the number one determinate of > long term survival of cancer patients. How can this be the case if the > drugs and radiation is what " cures " them? A study done in 1950 (Journal > of Clinical Investigation; 1950; 29; 100-109) showed that placebo was > powerful enough to turn ipecac which is normally used to induce vomiting > into a drug that stopped nausea. > > http://www.wrf.org/news/news0017.htm is an interesting article about the > power of placebo. > > Instead of dismissing placebo as " not real " , I believe it should be > studied to find out how to maximize it's benefits in healing. > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > Oasis Acupuncture > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > Suite D-35 > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > Fax: (480) 247-4472 > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > daomsnow > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:31 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even) > needling) > > > You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all medicines. > However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo is not > the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the belief. > The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, try " just > believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the medicine thank > you. > > > Dr. Snow > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Hi Christopher and all, My understanding of the meaning of placebo is literally 'to please' I think it could be stretched out to encompass,'to be approved of " I think this may turn out to be one of the biggest needs of the mind.It takes many forms but also in any therapeutic interaction,even at the dentist. 'I am not good enough as I am' may also turn out to be the most popular thought in the last hundred years or so (or a lot lot longer)I think the placebo effect has an intimate effect with this thought/feeling. It is something science wants to eliminate from any study but it is very difficult with our medicine.Maybe in the future placebo will be ' the healing effect' as that is what it is in so many cases,maybe science will look at ways to enhance this effect ,rather than eliminate it,after all,when all said and done the observer and the observed cannot be separated,i cannot ever " be outside " of anything that I am observing. Ray Ford _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:51 AM Chinese Medicine Placebo? What does placebo really mean? It is usually thrown around by researchers as a way to dismiss or control for the very real and powerful forces of the human bodies own ability to heal itself. " Just believing " is not the same as placebo. I have no doubt that we all have the innate capacity to heal from bacterial infections and hepatitis. We may just need a little reminding. That's not to say I wouldn't seek out antibiotics for myself or my family, it is just that I want all my horses running in the same direction. When I get sick, I see it as a message my body is communicating to me. " Slow down " , " pay attention " , " resolve this issue " . The problem is that most of us don't view sickness this way and just work at killing the messenger (the pain, illness etc.) Why not use illness as an opportunity to reconnect with our source instead of reinforcing our and societies disconnect? The fact is that human beings have within them the power to heal and be healed. How this power is activated involves many factors and is very individualized. A profound trust and belief in the medicine being one of them (placebo). The will to live is the number one determinate of long term survival of cancer patients. How can this be the case if the drugs and radiation is what " cures " them? A study done in 1950 (Journal of Clinical Investigation; 1950; 29; 100-109) showed that placebo was powerful enough to turn ipecac which is normally used to induce vomiting into a drug that stopped nausea. http://www.wrf.org/news/news0017.htm is an interesting article about the power of placebo. Instead of dismissing placebo as " not real " , I believe it should be studied to find out how to maximize it's benefits in healing. Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of daomsnow Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:31 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even) needling) You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all medicines. However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo is not the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the belief. The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, try " just believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the medicine thank you. Dr. Snow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 i agree Oakland, CA 94609 - Dermot O'Connor Chinese Medicine Wednesday, May 17, 2006 5:16 PM Re: Placebo? No resistance from here at all Alon, I welcome scientific evaluation. That was never the point. In fact saying intention and belief is irrelavent simply ignores a scientifically established fact. - " " <alonmarcus <Chinese Medicine > Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:05 AM Re: Placebo? nothing wrong with that the only thing science wants to objectively evaluate is do you get better result than a none train needle sticker. I just don't get the resistance for it. Oakland, CA 94609 - Turiya Hill Chinese Medicine Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:54 PM Re: Placebo? Yes. Very well said Dermott. And in my experience the confluence of Yi Breath and Qi instigate the treatment even before the insertion of the needles. The final sequence and pattern of treated points ( spheres of influence) is the outer manifestation of this confluence. The pulses change even prior to insertion. - Dermot O'Connor Chinese Medicine Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:29 PM Re: Placebo? No Alon, the points made initially were twofold, point one was that a monkey or robot inserting needles into the same acupuncture points would always yield the same results as an extremely skilled practitioner. You make your own mind up on that one, but I certainly believe that there is more to acupuncture than accurate point location. I do think that its important, but also believe there is something else at play - and that as the texts say " the Yi moves the Qi. " Point two, was that belief and intention are totally irrelevant. As you correctly point out its not irrelevant and can account for up to 70% of any clinical effect. - " " <alonmarcus <Chinese Medicine > Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:04 AM Re: Placebo? > no. it is used to compare an active treatment to noneactive treatment. The > problem is that any time one inserts a needle there is some effects. The > question is do you need any training or a monkey can do as well. That is > what a placebo is. Placebo does not mean there is no clinical effects as > any drug study will show you. In some studies it has been as high as 70%. > The other thing is that the effects of placebo usually do not last. It is > therefore still a useful tool, however not the endall > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. > Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:50 PM > Placebo? > > > What does placebo really mean? It is usually thrown around by > researchers as a way to dismiss or control for the very real and > powerful forces of the human bodies own ability to heal itself. " Just > believing " is not the same as placebo. I have no doubt that we all have > the innate capacity to heal from bacterial infections and hepatitis. We > may just need a little reminding. That's not to say I wouldn't seek out > antibiotics for myself or my family, it is just that I want all my > horses running in the same direction. When I get sick, I see it as a > message my body is communicating to me. " Slow down " , " pay attention " , > " resolve this issue " . The problem is that most of us don't view > sickness this way and just work at killing the messenger (the pain, > illness etc.) Why not use illness as an opportunity to reconnect with > our source instead of reinforcing our and societies disconnect? > > The fact is that human beings have within them the power to heal and be > healed. How this power is activated involves many factors and is very > individualized. A profound trust and belief in the medicine being one > of them (placebo). The will to live is the number one determinate of > long term survival of cancer patients. How can this be the case if the > drugs and radiation is what " cures " them? A study done in 1950 (Journal > of Clinical Investigation; 1950; 29; 100-109) showed that placebo was > powerful enough to turn ipecac which is normally used to induce vomiting > into a drug that stopped nausea. > > http://www.wrf.org/news/news0017.htm is an interesting article about the > power of placebo. > > Instead of dismissing placebo as " not real " , I believe it should be > studied to find out how to maximize it's benefits in healing. > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > Oasis Acupuncture > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > Suite D-35 > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > Fax: (480) 247-4472 > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > daomsnow > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:31 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even) > needling) > > > You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all medicines. > However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo is not > the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the belief. > The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, try " just > believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the medicine thank > you. > > > Dr. Snow > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 I never said it was irrelevant, I said that acupuncture should work, regardless. All medicine have the placebo effect, but accounting for placebo, the needle alone should work if placed in the proper point. If not, we are not practicing medicine. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM Chinese Medicine , " Dermot O'Connor " <dermot wrote: > > No resistance from here at all Alon, I welcome scientific evaluation. That > was never the point. In fact saying intention and belief is irrelavent > simply ignores a scientifically established fact. > > > - > " " <alonmarcus > <Chinese Medicine > > Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:05 AM > Re: Placebo? > > > nothing wrong with that the only thing science wants to objectively evaluate > is do you get better result than a none train needle sticker. I just don't > get the resistance for it. > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > Turiya Hill > Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:54 PM > Re: Placebo? > > > Yes. Very well said Dermott. And in my experience the confluence of Yi > Breath and Qi instigate the treatment even before the insertion of the > needles. The final sequence and pattern of treated points ( spheres of > influence) is the outer manifestation of this confluence. The pulses > change even prior to insertion. > - > Dermot O'Connor > Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:29 PM > Re: Placebo? > > > No Alon, the points made initially were twofold, point one was that a > monkey > or robot inserting needles into the same acupuncture points would always > yield the same results as an extremely skilled practitioner. You make > your > own mind up on that one, but I certainly believe that there is more to > acupuncture than accurate point location. I do think that its > important, > but also believe there is something else at play - and that as the texts > say > " the Yi moves the Qi. " > > Point two, was that belief and intention are totally irrelevant. As you > correctly point out its not irrelevant and can account for up to 70% of > any > clinical effect. > > > > - > " " <alonmarcus > <Chinese Medicine > > Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:04 AM > Re: Placebo? > > > > no. it is used to compare an active treatment to noneactive treatment. > The > > problem is that any time one inserts a needle there is some effects. > The > > question is do you need any training or a monkey can do as well. That > is > > what a placebo is. Placebo does not mean there is no clinical effects > as > > any drug study will show you. In some studies it has been as high as > 70%. > > The other thing is that the effects of placebo usually do not last. It > is > > therefore still a useful tool, however not the endall > > > > > > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > > > - > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. > > Chinese Medicine > > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:50 PM > > Placebo? > > > > > > What does placebo really mean? It is usually thrown around by > > researchers as a way to dismiss or control for the very real and > > powerful forces of the human bodies own ability to heal itself. > " Just > > believing " is not the same as placebo. I have no doubt that we all > have > > the innate capacity to heal from bacterial infections and hepatitis. > We > > may just need a little reminding. That's not to say I wouldn't seek > out > > antibiotics for myself or my family, it is just that I want all my > > horses running in the same direction. When I get sick, I see it as a > > message my body is communicating to me. " Slow down " , " pay > attention " , > > " resolve this issue " . The problem is that most of us don't view > > sickness this way and just work at killing the messenger (the pain, > > illness etc.) Why not use illness as an opportunity to reconnect > with > > our source instead of reinforcing our and societies disconnect? > > > > The fact is that human beings have within them the power to heal and > be > > healed. How this power is activated involves many factors and is > very > > individualized. A profound trust and belief in the medicine being > one > > of them (placebo). The will to live is the number one determinate of > > long term survival of cancer patients. How can this be the case if > the > > drugs and radiation is what " cures " them? A study done in 1950 > (Journal > > of Clinical Investigation; 1950; 29; 100-109) showed that placebo was > > powerful enough to turn ipecac which is normally used to induce > vomiting > > into a drug that stopped nausea. > > > > http://www.wrf.org/news/news0017.htm is an interesting article about > the > > power of placebo. > > > > Instead of dismissing placebo as " not real " , I believe it should be > > studied to find out how to maximize it's benefits in healing. > > > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > > Oasis Acupuncture > > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > > Suite D-35 > > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > > Fax: (480) 247-4472 > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > > daomsnow > > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:31 AM > > Chinese Medicine > > Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral > (Even) > > needling) > > > > > > You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all medicines. > > However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo is not > > the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the belief. > > The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, try " just > > believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the medicine thank > > you. > > > > > > Dr. Snow > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Don, I got the impression that your students thought it was important but you didn't at all agree with them? Well I think we can now agree that intention and belief is very relavent and in fact is important. Sometimes needles work, sometimes medication works.....and indeed sometimes neither work. Just because a treatment hasn't worked doesn't mean its not real Medicine. Acupuncture has been proven scientifically to work for many conditions. I still disagree that its only down to accurate point location however, which is what the monkey anecdote implies. - " daomsnow " <don83407 <Chinese Medicine > Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:08 PM Re: Placebo? >I never said it was irrelevant, I said that acupuncture should work, > regardless. All medicine have the placebo effect, but accounting for > placebo, the needle alone should work if placed in the proper point. > If not, we are not practicing medicine. > > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Dermot > O'Connor " <dermot wrote: >> >> No resistance from here at all Alon, I welcome scientific > evaluation. That >> was never the point. In fact saying intention and belief is > irrelavent >> simply ignores a scientifically established fact. >> >> >> - >> " " <alonmarcus >> <Chinese Medicine > >> Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:05 AM >> Re: Placebo? >> >> >> nothing wrong with that the only thing science wants to objectively > evaluate >> is do you get better result than a none train needle sticker. I > just don't >> get the resistance for it. >> >> >> >> >> Oakland, CA 94609 >> >> >> - >> Turiya Hill >> Chinese Medicine >> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:54 PM >> Re: Placebo? >> >> >> Yes. Very well said Dermott. And in my experience the confluence > of Yi >> Breath and Qi instigate the treatment even before the insertion > of the >> needles. The final sequence and pattern of treated points ( spheres > of >> influence) is the outer manifestation of this confluence. The > pulses >> change even prior to insertion. >> - >> Dermot O'Connor >> Chinese Medicine >> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:29 PM >> Re: Placebo? >> >> >> No Alon, the points made initially were twofold, point one was > that a >> monkey >> or robot inserting needles into the same acupuncture points > would always >> yield the same results as an extremely skilled practitioner. > You make >> your >> own mind up on that one, but I certainly believe that there is > more to >> acupuncture than accurate point location. I do think that its >> important, >> but also believe there is something else at play - and that as > the texts >> say >> " the Yi moves the Qi. " >> >> Point two, was that belief and intention are totally > irrelevant. As you >> correctly point out its not irrelevant and can account for up > to 70% of >> any >> clinical effect. >> >> >> >> - >> " " <alonmarcus >> <Chinese Medicine > >> Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:04 AM >> Re: Placebo? >> >> >> > no. it is used to compare an active treatment to noneactive > treatment. >> The >> > problem is that any time one inserts a needle there is some > effects. >> The >> > question is do you need any training or a monkey can do as > well. That >> is >> > what a placebo is. Placebo does not mean there is no clinical > effects >> as >> > any drug study will show you. In some studies it has been as > high as >> 70%. >> > The other thing is that the effects of placebo usually do not > last. It >> is >> > therefore still a useful tool, however not the endall >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Oakland, CA 94609 >> > >> > >> > - >> > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. >> > Chinese Medicine >> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:50 PM >> > Placebo? >> > >> > >> > What does placebo really mean? It is usually thrown around > by >> > researchers as a way to dismiss or control for the very real > and >> > powerful forces of the human bodies own ability to heal > itself. >> " Just >> > believing " is not the same as placebo. I have no doubt that > we all >> have >> > the innate capacity to heal from bacterial infections and > hepatitis. >> We >> > may just need a little reminding. That's not to say I > wouldn't seek >> out >> > antibiotics for myself or my family, it is just that I want > all my >> > horses running in the same direction. When I get sick, I > see it as a >> > message my body is communicating to me. " Slow down " , " pay >> attention " , >> > " resolve this issue " . The problem is that most of us don't > view >> > sickness this way and just work at killing the messenger > (the pain, >> > illness etc.) Why not use illness as an opportunity to > reconnect >> with >> > our source instead of reinforcing our and societies > disconnect? >> > >> > The fact is that human beings have within them the power to > heal and >> be >> > healed. How this power is activated involves many factors > and is >> very >> > individualized. A profound trust and belief in the medicine > being >> one >> > of them (placebo). The will to live is the number one > determinate of >> > long term survival of cancer patients. How can this be the > case if >> the >> > drugs and radiation is what " cures " them? A study done in > 1950 >> (Journal >> > of Clinical Investigation; 1950; 29; 100-109) showed that > placebo was >> > powerful enough to turn ipecac which is normally used to > induce >> vomiting >> > into a drug that stopped nausea. >> > >> > http://www.wrf.org/news/news0017.htm is an interesting > article about >> the >> > power of placebo. >> > >> > Instead of dismissing placebo as " not real " , I believe it > should be >> > studied to find out how to maximize it's benefits in healing. >> > >> > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. >> > Oasis Acupuncture >> > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com >> > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte >> > Suite D-35 >> > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 >> > Phone: (480) 991-3650 >> > Fax: (480) 247-4472 >> > >> > >> > Chinese Medicine >> > Chinese Medicine On > Behalf Of >> > daomsnow >> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:31 AM >> > Chinese Medicine >> > Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v > Neutral >> (Even) >> > needling) >> > >> > >> > You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all > medicines. >> > However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo > is not >> > the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the > belief. >> > The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, > try " just >> > believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the > medicine thank >> > you. >> > >> > >> > Dr. Snow >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Dermot, I have to agree with you, I believe intention plays a massive part in Medical intervention, I have to say comparing fish to humans doesn't really float my boat, thats like compaing petrol and diesel, yes they are both used for running vehicles, but your not going to put petrol into a diesel engin, it just doesn't mix. Intention, thoughts, feelings and emotions etc are all energy based, and if you remember our old science books, energy cannot be created or destroyed only changed from one form to another. I'm not aware of any method to evaluate intention at the moment. I do know that placebo has been tested in animals also. Gordon On 5/18/06, Dermot O'Connor <dermot wrote: > > Don, > > I got the impression that your students thought it was important but you > didn't at all agree with them? Well I think we can now agree that > intention > and belief is very relavent and in fact is important. Sometimes > needles > work, sometimes medication works.....and indeed sometimes neither work. > Just because a treatment hasn't worked doesn't mean its not real Medicine. > > Acupuncture has been proven scientifically to work for many conditions. I > > still disagree that its only down to accurate point location however, > which > is what the monkey anecdote implies. > > > > > - > " daomsnow " <don83407 > <Chinese Medicine > > Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:08 PM > Re: Placebo? > > > >I never said it was irrelevant, I said that acupuncture should work, > > regardless. All medicine have the placebo effect, but accounting for > > placebo, the needle alone should work if placed in the proper point. > > If not, we are not practicing medicine. > > > > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Dermot > > O'Connor " <dermot wrote: > >> > >> No resistance from here at all Alon, I welcome scientific > > evaluation. That > >> was never the point. In fact saying intention and belief is > > irrelavent > >> simply ignores a scientifically established fact. > >> > >> > >> - > >> " " <alonmarcus > >> <Chinese Medicine > > >> Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:05 AM > >> Re: Placebo? > >> > >> > >> nothing wrong with that the only thing science wants to objectively > > evaluate > >> is do you get better result than a none train needle sticker. I > > just don't > >> get the resistance for it. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Oakland, CA 94609 > >> > >> > >> - > >> Turiya Hill > >> Chinese Medicine > >> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:54 PM > >> Re: Placebo? > >> > >> > >> Yes. Very well said Dermott. And in my experience the confluence > > of Yi > >> Breath and Qi instigate the treatment even before the insertion > > of the > >> needles. The final sequence and pattern of treated points ( spheres > > of > >> influence) is the outer manifestation of this confluence. The > > pulses > >> change even prior to insertion. > >> - > >> Dermot O'Connor > >> Chinese Medicine > >> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:29 PM > >> Re: Placebo? > >> > >> > >> No Alon, the points made initially were twofold, point one was > > that a > >> monkey > >> or robot inserting needles into the same acupuncture points > > would always > >> yield the same results as an extremely skilled practitioner. > > You make > >> your > >> own mind up on that one, but I certainly believe that there is > > more to > >> acupuncture than accurate point location. I do think that its > >> important, > >> but also believe there is something else at play - and that as > > the texts > >> say > >> " the Yi moves the Qi. " > >> > >> Point two, was that belief and intention are totally > > irrelevant. As you > >> correctly point out its not irrelevant and can account for up > > to 70% of > >> any > >> clinical effect. > >> > >> > >> > >> - > >> " " <alonmarcus > >> <Chinese Medicine > > >> Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:04 AM > >> Re: Placebo? > >> > >> > >> > no. it is used to compare an active treatment to noneactive > > treatment. > >> The > >> > problem is that any time one inserts a needle there is some > > effects. > >> The > >> > question is do you need any training or a monkey can do as > > well. That > >> is > >> > what a placebo is. Placebo does not mean there is no clinical > > effects > >> as > >> > any drug study will show you. In some studies it has been as > > high as > >> 70%. > >> > The other thing is that the effects of placebo usually do not > > last. It > >> is > >> > therefore still a useful tool, however not the endall > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Oakland, CA 94609 > >> > > >> > > >> > - > >> > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. > >> > Chinese Medicine > >> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:50 PM > >> > Placebo? > >> > > >> > > >> > What does placebo really mean? It is usually thrown around > > by > >> > researchers as a way to dismiss or control for the very real > > and > >> > powerful forces of the human bodies own ability to heal > > itself. > >> " Just > >> > believing " is not the same as placebo. I have no doubt that > > we all > >> have > >> > the innate capacity to heal from bacterial infections and > > hepatitis. > >> We > >> > may just need a little reminding. That's not to say I > > wouldn't seek > >> out > >> > antibiotics for myself or my family, it is just that I want > > all my > >> > horses running in the same direction. When I get sick, I > > see it as a > >> > message my body is communicating to me. " Slow down " , " pay > >> attention " , > >> > " resolve this issue " . The problem is that most of us don't > > view > >> > sickness this way and just work at killing the messenger > > (the pain, > >> > illness etc.) Why not use illness as an opportunity to > > reconnect > >> with > >> > our source instead of reinforcing our and societies > > disconnect? > >> > > >> > The fact is that human beings have within them the power to > > heal and > >> be > >> > healed. How this power is activated involves many factors > > and is > >> very > >> > individualized. A profound trust and belief in the medicine > > being > >> one > >> > of them (placebo). The will to live is the number one > > determinate of > >> > long term survival of cancer patients. How can this be the > > case if > >> the > >> > drugs and radiation is what " cures " them? A study done in > > 1950 > >> (Journal > >> > of Clinical Investigation; 1950; 29; 100-109) showed that > > placebo was > >> > powerful enough to turn ipecac which is normally used to > > induce > >> vomiting > >> > into a drug that stopped nausea. > >> > > >> > http://www.wrf.org/news/news0017.htm is an interesting > > article about > >> the > >> > power of placebo. > >> > > >> > Instead of dismissing placebo as " not real " , I believe it > > should be > >> > studied to find out how to maximize it's benefits in healing. > >> > > >> > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > >> > Oasis Acupuncture > >> > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> > > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > >> > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > >> > Suite D-35 > >> > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > >> > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > >> > Fax: (480) 247-4472 > >> > > >> > > >> > Chinese Medicine > >> > Chinese Medicine On > > Behalf Of > >> > daomsnow > >> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:31 AM > >> > Chinese Medicine > >> > Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v > > Neutral > >> (Even) > >> > needling) > >> > > >> > > >> > You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all > > medicines. > >> > However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo > > is not > >> > the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the > > belief. > >> > The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, > > try " just > >> > believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the > > medicine thank > >> > you. > >> > > >> > > >> > Dr. Snow > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 I do know that placebo has been tested in animals also >>>>> Since i am not sure how that can be done. Do you have a reference? Oakland, CA 94609 - Gordon Mullins Chinese Medicine Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:13 AM Re: Placebo? Dermot, I have to agree with you, I believe intention plays a massive part in Medical intervention, I have to say comparing fish to humans doesn't really float my boat, thats like compaing petrol and diesel, yes they are both used for running vehicles, but your not going to put petrol into a diesel engin, it just doesn't mix. Intention, thoughts, feelings and emotions etc are all energy based, and if you remember our old science books, energy cannot be created or destroyed only changed from one form to another. I'm not aware of any method to evaluate intention at the moment. I do know that placebo has been tested in animals also. Gordon On 5/18/06, Dermot O'Connor <dermot wrote: > > Don, > > I got the impression that your students thought it was important but you > didn't at all agree with them? Well I think we can now agree that > intention > and belief is very relavent and in fact is important. Sometimes > needles > work, sometimes medication works.....and indeed sometimes neither work. > Just because a treatment hasn't worked doesn't mean its not real Medicine. > > Acupuncture has been proven scientifically to work for many conditions. I > > still disagree that its only down to accurate point location however, > which > is what the monkey anecdote implies. > > > > > - > " daomsnow " <don83407 > <Chinese Medicine > > Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:08 PM > Re: Placebo? > > > >I never said it was irrelevant, I said that acupuncture should work, > > regardless. All medicine have the placebo effect, but accounting for > > placebo, the needle alone should work if placed in the proper point. > > If not, we are not practicing medicine. > > > > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Dermot > > O'Connor " <dermot wrote: > >> > >> No resistance from here at all Alon, I welcome scientific > > evaluation. That > >> was never the point. In fact saying intention and belief is > > irrelavent > >> simply ignores a scientifically established fact. > >> > >> > >> - > >> " " <alonmarcus > >> <Chinese Medicine > > >> Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:05 AM > >> Re: Placebo? > >> > >> > >> nothing wrong with that the only thing science wants to objectively > > evaluate > >> is do you get better result than a none train needle sticker. I > > just don't > >> get the resistance for it. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Oakland, CA 94609 > >> > >> > >> - > >> Turiya Hill > >> Chinese Medicine > >> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:54 PM > >> Re: Placebo? > >> > >> > >> Yes. Very well said Dermott. And in my experience the confluence > > of Yi > >> Breath and Qi instigate the treatment even before the insertion > > of the > >> needles. The final sequence and pattern of treated points ( spheres > > of > >> influence) is the outer manifestation of this confluence. The > > pulses > >> change even prior to insertion. > >> - > >> Dermot O'Connor > >> Chinese Medicine > >> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:29 PM > >> Re: Placebo? > >> > >> > >> No Alon, the points made initially were twofold, point one was > > that a > >> monkey > >> or robot inserting needles into the same acupuncture points > > would always > >> yield the same results as an extremely skilled practitioner. > > You make > >> your > >> own mind up on that one, but I certainly believe that there is > > more to > >> acupuncture than accurate point location. I do think that its > >> important, > >> but also believe there is something else at play - and that as > > the texts > >> say > >> " the Yi moves the Qi. " > >> > >> Point two, was that belief and intention are totally > > irrelevant. As you > >> correctly point out its not irrelevant and can account for up > > to 70% of > >> any > >> clinical effect. > >> > >> > >> > >> - > >> " " <alonmarcus > >> <Chinese Medicine > > >> Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:04 AM > >> Re: Placebo? > >> > >> > >> > no. it is used to compare an active treatment to noneactive > > treatment. > >> The > >> > problem is that any time one inserts a needle there is some > > effects. > >> The > >> > question is do you need any training or a monkey can do as > > well. That > >> is > >> > what a placebo is. Placebo does not mean there is no clinical > > effects > >> as > >> > any drug study will show you. In some studies it has been as > > high as > >> 70%. > >> > The other thing is that the effects of placebo usually do not > > last. It > >> is > >> > therefore still a useful tool, however not the endall > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Oakland, CA 94609 > >> > > >> > > >> > - > >> > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. > >> > Chinese Medicine > >> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:50 PM > >> > Placebo? > >> > > >> > > >> > What does placebo really mean? It is usually thrown around > > by > >> > researchers as a way to dismiss or control for the very real > > and > >> > powerful forces of the human bodies own ability to heal > > itself. > >> " Just > >> > believing " is not the same as placebo. I have no doubt that > > we all > >> have > >> > the innate capacity to heal from bacterial infections and > > hepatitis. > >> We > >> > may just need a little reminding. That's not to say I > > wouldn't seek > >> out > >> > antibiotics for myself or my family, it is just that I want > > all my > >> > horses running in the same direction. When I get sick, I > > see it as a > >> > message my body is communicating to me. " Slow down " , " pay > >> attention " , > >> > " resolve this issue " . The problem is that most of us don't > > view > >> > sickness this way and just work at killing the messenger > > (the pain, > >> > illness etc.) Why not use illness as an opportunity to > > reconnect > >> with > >> > our source instead of reinforcing our and societies > > disconnect? > >> > > >> > The fact is that human beings have within them the power to > > heal and > >> be > >> > healed. How this power is activated involves many factors > > and is > >> very > >> > individualized. A profound trust and belief in the medicine > > being > >> one > >> > of them (placebo). The will to live is the number one > > determinate of > >> > long term survival of cancer patients. How can this be the > > case if > >> the > >> > drugs and radiation is what " cures " them? A study done in > > 1950 > >> (Journal > >> > of Clinical Investigation; 1950; 29; 100-109) showed that > > placebo was > >> > powerful enough to turn ipecac which is normally used to > > induce > >> vomiting > >> > into a drug that stopped nausea. > >> > > >> > http://www.wrf.org/news/news0017.htm is an interesting > > article about > >> the > >> > power of placebo. > >> > > >> > Instead of dismissing placebo as " not real " , I believe it > > should be > >> > studied to find out how to maximize it's benefits in healing. > >> > > >> > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > >> > Oasis Acupuncture > >> > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> > > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > >> > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > >> > Suite D-35 > >> > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > >> > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > >> > Fax: (480) 247-4472 > >> > > >> > > >> > Chinese Medicine > >> > Chinese Medicine On > > Behalf Of > >> > daomsnow > >> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:31 AM > >> > Chinese Medicine > >> > Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v > > Neutral > >> (Even) > >> > needling) > >> > > >> > > >> > You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all > > medicines. > >> > However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo > > is not > >> > the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the > > belief. > >> > The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, > > try " just > >> > believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the > > medicine thank > >> > you. > >> > > >> > > >> > Dr. Snow > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 Alon, If you do a google search under - " placebo " and " animals " you will get over a million returns. A few examples, just taking the top ones I have listed below. I didn't see one with fish but I didn't look too hard - seems to show mice, baboons and dogs a lot. I'm sure that as they are medical trials it makes a lot more sense to test on species that are mammals as opposed to other animal groups Hopefully once and for all we can agree that belief and intention plays a hugely important role in the success of all medicine. That's what science tells us anyway. In a nutshell, I understood that Don was suggesting that when a drug works it just works and has nothing to do with belief. As he would say, you can't believe yourself well. However science doesn't support this proposition and tells us that broadly speaking of the drugs approved for the market 50% of their healing effect is attributable to the placebo effect alone - people believing themselves well, expecting to be well and having intention to be well. Of course that means that there is another 50% which is not attributable to belief/intention but attributable to the medicinal components. But nevertheless 50% is a pretty significant percentage. http://www.freshnews.com/cgi-bin/jsj_news/print.cgi?article_ID=18175 http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/full/62/5/1370 http://www.bloodjournal.org/cgi/content/full/101/10/4209 Kind regards Dermot - " " <alonmarcus <Chinese Medicine > Friday, May 19, 2006 1:06 AM Re: Placebo? >I do know that placebo has been tested in animals also >>>>>> > Since i am not sure how that can be done. Do you have a reference? > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > Gordon Mullins > Chinese Medicine > Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:13 AM > Re: Placebo? > > > Dermot, > > I have to agree with you, I believe intention plays a massive part in > Medical intervention, I have to say comparing fish to humans doesn't > really > float my boat, thats like compaing petrol and diesel, yes they are both > used > for running vehicles, but your not going to put petrol into a diesel > engin, > it just doesn't mix. > > Intention, thoughts, feelings and emotions etc are all energy based, and > if > you remember our old science books, energy cannot be created or destroyed > only changed from one form to another. I'm not aware of any method to > evaluate intention at the moment. > > I do know that placebo has been tested in animals also. > > Gordon > > > On 5/18/06, Dermot O'Connor <dermot wrote: > > > > Don, > > > > I got the impression that your students thought it was important but > you > > didn't at all agree with them? Well I think we can now agree that > > intention > > and belief is very relavent and in fact is important. Sometimes > > needles > > work, sometimes medication works.....and indeed sometimes neither work. > > Just because a treatment hasn't worked doesn't mean its not real > Medicine. > > > > Acupuncture has been proven scientifically to work for many conditions. > I > > > > still disagree that its only down to accurate point location however, > > which > > is what the monkey anecdote implies. > > > > > > > > > > - > > " daomsnow " <don83407 > > <Chinese Medicine > > > Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:08 PM > > Re: Placebo? > > > > > > >I never said it was irrelevant, I said that acupuncture should work, > > > regardless. All medicine have the placebo effect, but accounting for > > > placebo, the needle alone should work if placed in the proper point. > > > If not, we are not practicing medicine. > > > > > > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Dermot > > > O'Connor " <dermot wrote: > > >> > > >> No resistance from here at all Alon, I welcome scientific > > > evaluation. That > > >> was never the point. In fact saying intention and belief is > > > irrelavent > > >> simply ignores a scientifically established fact. > > >> > > >> > > >> - > > >> " " <alonmarcus > > >> <Chinese Medicine > > > >> Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:05 AM > > >> Re: Placebo? > > >> > > >> > > >> nothing wrong with that the only thing science wants to objectively > > > evaluate > > >> is do you get better result than a none train needle sticker. I > > > just don't > > >> get the resistance for it. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Oakland, CA 94609 > > >> > > >> > > >> - > > >> Turiya Hill > > >> Chinese Medicine > > >> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:54 PM > > >> Re: Placebo? > > >> > > >> > > >> Yes. Very well said Dermott. And in my experience the confluence > > > of Yi > > >> Breath and Qi instigate the treatment even before the insertion > > > of the > > >> needles. The final sequence and pattern of treated points ( spheres > > > of > > >> influence) is the outer manifestation of this confluence. The > > > pulses > > >> change even prior to insertion. > > >> - > > >> Dermot O'Connor > > >> Chinese Medicine > > >> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:29 PM > > >> Re: Placebo? > > >> > > >> > > >> No Alon, the points made initially were twofold, point one was > > > that a > > >> monkey > > >> or robot inserting needles into the same acupuncture points > > > would always > > >> yield the same results as an extremely skilled practitioner. > > > You make > > >> your > > >> own mind up on that one, but I certainly believe that there is > > > more to > > >> acupuncture than accurate point location. I do think that its > > >> important, > > >> but also believe there is something else at play - and that as > > > the texts > > >> say > > >> " the Yi moves the Qi. " > > >> > > >> Point two, was that belief and intention are totally > > > irrelevant. As you > > >> correctly point out its not irrelevant and can account for up > > > to 70% of > > >> any > > >> clinical effect. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> - > > >> " " <alonmarcus > > >> <Chinese Medicine > > > >> Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:04 AM > > >> Re: Placebo? > > >> > > >> > > >> > no. it is used to compare an active treatment to noneactive > > > treatment. > > >> The > > >> > problem is that any time one inserts a needle there is some > > > effects. > > >> The > > >> > question is do you need any training or a monkey can do as > > > well. That > > >> is > > >> > what a placebo is. Placebo does not mean there is no clinical > > > effects > > >> as > > >> > any drug study will show you. In some studies it has been as > > > high as > > >> 70%. > > >> > The other thing is that the effects of placebo usually do not > > > last. It > > >> is > > >> > therefore still a useful tool, however not the endall > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Oakland, CA 94609 > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > - > > >> > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. > > >> > Chinese Medicine > > >> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:50 PM > > >> > Placebo? > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > What does placebo really mean? It is usually thrown around > > > by > > >> > researchers as a way to dismiss or control for the very real > > > and > > >> > powerful forces of the human bodies own ability to heal > > > itself. > > >> " Just > > >> > believing " is not the same as placebo. I have no doubt that > > > we all > > >> have > > >> > the innate capacity to heal from bacterial infections and > > > hepatitis. > > >> We > > >> > may just need a little reminding. That's not to say I > > > wouldn't seek > > >> out > > >> > antibiotics for myself or my family, it is just that I want > > > all my > > >> > horses running in the same direction. When I get sick, I > > > see it as a > > >> > message my body is communicating to me. " Slow down " , " pay > > >> attention " , > > >> > " resolve this issue " . The problem is that most of us don't > > > view > > >> > sickness this way and just work at killing the messenger > > > (the pain, > > >> > illness etc.) Why not use illness as an opportunity to > > > reconnect > > >> with > > >> > our source instead of reinforcing our and societies > > > disconnect? > > >> > > > >> > The fact is that human beings have within them the power to > > > heal and > > >> be > > >> > healed. How this power is activated involves many factors > > > and is > > >> very > > >> > individualized. A profound trust and belief in the medicine > > > being > > >> one > > >> > of them (placebo). The will to live is the number one > > > determinate of > > >> > long term survival of cancer patients. How can this be the > > > case if > > >> the > > >> > drugs and radiation is what " cures " them? A study done in > > > 1950 > > >> (Journal > > >> > of Clinical Investigation; 1950; 29; 100-109) showed that > > > placebo was > > >> > powerful enough to turn ipecac which is normally used to > > > induce > > >> vomiting > > >> > into a drug that stopped nausea. > > >> > > > >> > http://www.wrf.org/news/news0017.htm is an interesting > > > article about > > >> the > > >> > power of placebo. > > >> > > > >> > Instead of dismissing placebo as " not real " , I believe it > > > should be > > >> > studied to find out how to maximize it's benefits in healing. > > >> > > > >> > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > > >> > Oasis Acupuncture > > >> > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> > > > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > > >> > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > > >> > Suite D-35 > > >> > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > > >> > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > > >> > Fax: (480) 247-4472 > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Chinese Medicine > > >> > Chinese Medicine On > > > Behalf Of > > >> > daomsnow > > >> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:31 AM > > >> > Chinese Medicine > > >> > Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v > > > Neutral > > >> (Even) > > >> > needling) > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all > > > medicines. > > >> > However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo > > > is not > > >> > the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the > > > belief. > > >> > The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, > > > try " just > > >> > believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the > > > medicine thank > > >> > you. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Dr. Snow > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 Phil Do they use the " placebo " in the same sense as in people? Or is it a kind of comparison to natural history of disease? Oakland, CA 94609 - Dermot O'Connor Chinese Medicine Thursday, May 18, 2006 5:52 PM Re: Placebo? Alon, If you do a google search under - " placebo " and " animals " you will get over a million returns. A few examples, just taking the top ones I have listed below. I didn't see one with fish but I didn't look too hard - seems to show mice, baboons and dogs a lot. I'm sure that as they are medical trials it makes a lot more sense to test on species that are mammals as opposed to other animal groups Hopefully once and for all we can agree that belief and intention plays a hugely important role in the success of all medicine. That's what science tells us anyway. In a nutshell, I understood that Don was suggesting that when a drug works it just works and has nothing to do with belief. As he would say, you can't believe yourself well. However science doesn't support this proposition and tells us that broadly speaking of the drugs approved for the market 50% of their healing effect is attributable to the placebo effect alone - people believing themselves well, expecting to be well and having intention to be well. Of course that means that there is another 50% which is not attributable to belief/intention but attributable to the medicinal components. But nevertheless 50% is a pretty significant percentage. http://www.freshnews.com/cgi-bin/jsj_news/print.cgi?article_ID=18175 http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/full/62/5/1370 http://www.bloodjournal.org/cgi/content/full/101/10/4209 Kind regards Dermot - " " <alonmarcus <Chinese Medicine > Friday, May 19, 2006 1:06 AM Re: Placebo? >I do know that placebo has been tested in animals also >>>>>> > Since i am not sure how that can be done. Do you have a reference? > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > Gordon Mullins > Chinese Medicine > Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:13 AM > Re: Placebo? > > > Dermot, > > I have to agree with you, I believe intention plays a massive part in > Medical intervention, I have to say comparing fish to humans doesn't > really > float my boat, thats like compaing petrol and diesel, yes they are both > used > for running vehicles, but your not going to put petrol into a diesel > engin, > it just doesn't mix. > > Intention, thoughts, feelings and emotions etc are all energy based, and > if > you remember our old science books, energy cannot be created or destroyed > only changed from one form to another. I'm not aware of any method to > evaluate intention at the moment. > > I do know that placebo has been tested in animals also. > > Gordon > > > On 5/18/06, Dermot O'Connor <dermot wrote: > > > > Don, > > > > I got the impression that your students thought it was important but > you > > didn't at all agree with them? Well I think we can now agree that > > intention > > and belief is very relavent and in fact is important. Sometimes > > needles > > work, sometimes medication works.....and indeed sometimes neither work. > > Just because a treatment hasn't worked doesn't mean its not real > Medicine. > > > > Acupuncture has been proven scientifically to work for many conditions. > I > > > > still disagree that its only down to accurate point location however, > > which > > is what the monkey anecdote implies. > > > > > > > > > > - > > " daomsnow " <don83407 > > <Chinese Medicine > > > Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:08 PM > > Re: Placebo? > > > > > > >I never said it was irrelevant, I said that acupuncture should work, > > > regardless. All medicine have the placebo effect, but accounting for > > > placebo, the needle alone should work if placed in the proper point. > > > If not, we are not practicing medicine. > > > > > > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Dermot > > > O'Connor " <dermot wrote: > > >> > > >> No resistance from here at all Alon, I welcome scientific > > > evaluation. That > > >> was never the point. In fact saying intention and belief is > > > irrelavent > > >> simply ignores a scientifically established fact. > > >> > > >> > > >> - > > >> " " <alonmarcus > > >> <Chinese Medicine > > > >> Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:05 AM > > >> Re: Placebo? > > >> > > >> > > >> nothing wrong with that the only thing science wants to objectively > > > evaluate > > >> is do you get better result than a none train needle sticker. I > > > just don't > > >> get the resistance for it. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Oakland, CA 94609 > > >> > > >> > > >> - > > >> Turiya Hill > > >> Chinese Medicine > > >> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:54 PM > > >> Re: Placebo? > > >> > > >> > > >> Yes. Very well said Dermott. And in my experience the confluence > > > of Yi > > >> Breath and Qi instigate the treatment even before the insertion > > > of the > > >> needles. The final sequence and pattern of treated points ( spheres > > > of > > >> influence) is the outer manifestation of this confluence. The > > > pulses > > >> change even prior to insertion. > > >> - > > >> Dermot O'Connor > > >> Chinese Medicine > > >> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:29 PM > > >> Re: Placebo? > > >> > > >> > > >> No Alon, the points made initially were twofold, point one was > > > that a > > >> monkey > > >> or robot inserting needles into the same acupuncture points > > > would always > > >> yield the same results as an extremely skilled practitioner. > > > You make > > >> your > > >> own mind up on that one, but I certainly believe that there is > > > more to > > >> acupuncture than accurate point location. I do think that its > > >> important, > > >> but also believe there is something else at play - and that as > > > the texts > > >> say > > >> " the Yi moves the Qi. " > > >> > > >> Point two, was that belief and intention are totally > > > irrelevant. As you > > >> correctly point out its not irrelevant and can account for up > > > to 70% of > > >> any > > >> clinical effect. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> - > > >> " " <alonmarcus > > >> <Chinese Medicine > > > >> Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:04 AM > > >> Re: Placebo? > > >> > > >> > > >> > no. it is used to compare an active treatment to noneactive > > > treatment. > > >> The > > >> > problem is that any time one inserts a needle there is some > > > effects. > > >> The > > >> > question is do you need any training or a monkey can do as > > > well. That > > >> is > > >> > what a placebo is. Placebo does not mean there is no clinical > > > effects > > >> as > > >> > any drug study will show you. In some studies it has been as > > > high as > > >> 70%. > > >> > The other thing is that the effects of placebo usually do not > > > last. It > > >> is > > >> > therefore still a useful tool, however not the endall > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Oakland, CA 94609 > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > - > > >> > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. > > >> > Chinese Medicine > > >> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:50 PM > > >> > Placebo? > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > What does placebo really mean? It is usually thrown around > > > by > > >> > researchers as a way to dismiss or control for the very real > > > and > > >> > powerful forces of the human bodies own ability to heal > > > itself. > > >> " Just > > >> > believing " is not the same as placebo. I have no doubt that > > > we all > > >> have > > >> > the innate capacity to heal from bacterial infections and > > > hepatitis. > > >> We > > >> > may just need a little reminding. That's not to say I > > > wouldn't seek > > >> out > > >> > antibiotics for myself or my family, it is just that I want > > > all my > > >> > horses running in the same direction. When I get sick, I > > > see it as a > > >> > message my body is communicating to me. " Slow down " , " pay > > >> attention " , > > >> > " resolve this issue " . The problem is that most of us don't > > > view > > >> > sickness this way and just work at killing the messenger > > > (the pain, > > >> > illness etc.) Why not use illness as an opportunity to > > > reconnect > > >> with > > >> > our source instead of reinforcing our and societies > > > disconnect? > > >> > > > >> > The fact is that human beings have within them the power to > > > heal and > > >> be > > >> > healed. How this power is activated involves many factors > > > and is > > >> very > > >> > individualized. A profound trust and belief in the medicine > > > being > > >> one > > >> > of them (placebo). The will to live is the number one > > > determinate of > > >> > long term survival of cancer patients. How can this be the > > > case if > > >> the > > >> > drugs and radiation is what " cures " them? A study done in > > > 1950 > > >> (Journal > > >> > of Clinical Investigation; 1950; 29; 100-109) showed that > > > placebo was > > >> > powerful enough to turn ipecac which is normally used to > > > induce > > >> vomiting > > >> > into a drug that stopped nausea. > > >> > > > >> > http://www.wrf.org/news/news0017.htm is an interesting > > > article about > > >> the > > >> > power of placebo. > > >> > > > >> > Instead of dismissing placebo as " not real " , I believe it > > > should be > > >> > studied to find out how to maximize it's benefits in healing. > > >> > > > >> > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > > >> > Oasis Acupuncture > > >> > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> > > > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > > >> > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > > >> > Suite D-35 > > >> > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > > >> > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > > >> > Fax: (480) 247-4472 > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Chinese Medicine > > >> > Chinese Medicine On > > > Behalf Of > > >> > daomsnow > > >> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:31 AM > > >> > Chinese Medicine > > >> > Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v > > > Neutral > > >> (Even) > > >> > needling) > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all > > > medicines. > > >> > However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo > > > is not > > >> > the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the > > > belief. > > >> > The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, > > > try " just > > >> > believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the > > > medicine thank > > >> > you. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Dr. Snow > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 No, my only point was that we practice real medicine, not faith healing. This seems to have touched on some nerves. I don't swing dead chickens over my head and with the numerous new age practitioners within our medicine, that is how many in Western medicine perceive us. From this discussion, it appears well founded. Too bad. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM - Dermot O'Connor Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:49 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Placebo? Don, I got the impression that your students thought it was important but you didn't at all agree with them? Well I think we can now agree that intention and belief is very relavent and in fact is important. Sometimes needles work, sometimes medication works.....and indeed sometimes neither work. Just because a treatment hasn't worked doesn't mean its not real Medicine Acupuncture has been proven scientifically to work for many conditions. I still disagree that its only down to accurate point location however, which is what the monkey anecdote implies. - " daomsnow " <don83407 <Chinese Medicine > Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:08 PM Re: Placebo? >I never said it was irrelevant, I said that acupuncture should work, > regardless. All medicine have the placebo effect, but accounting for > placebo, the needle alone should work if placed in the proper point. > If not, we are not practicing medicine. > > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Dermot > O'Connor " <dermot wrote: >> >> No resistance from here at all Alon, I welcome scientific > evaluation. That >> was never the point. In fact saying intention and belief is > irrelavent >> simply ignores a scientifically established fact. >> >> >> - >> " " <alonmarcus >> <Chinese Medicine > >> Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:05 AM >> Re: Placebo? >> >> >> nothing wrong with that the only thing science wants to objectively > evaluate >> is do you get better result than a none train needle sticker. I > just don't >> get the resistance for it. >> >> >> >> >> Oakland, CA 94609 >> >> >> - >> Turiya Hill >> Chinese Medicine >> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:54 PM >> Re: Placebo? >> >> >> Yes. Very well said Dermott. And in my experience the confluence > of Yi >> Breath and Qi instigate the treatment even before the insertion > of the >> needles. The final sequence and pattern of treated points ( spheres > of >> influence) is the outer manifestation of this confluence. The > pulses >> change even prior to insertion. >> - >> Dermot O'Connor >> Chinese Medicine >> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:29 PM >> Re: Placebo? >> >> >> No Alon, the points made initially were twofold, point one was > that a >> monkey >> or robot inserting needles into the same acupuncture points > would always >> yield the same results as an extremely skilled practitioner. > You make >> your >> own mind up on that one, but I certainly believe that there is > more to >> acupuncture than accurate point location. I do think that its >> important, >> but also believe there is something else at play - and that as > the texts >> say >> " the Yi moves the Qi. " >> >> Point two, was that belief and intention are totally > irrelevant. As you >> correctly point out its not irrelevant and can account for up > to 70% of >> any >> clinical effect. >> >> >> >> - >> " " <alonmarcus >> <Chinese Medicine > >> Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:04 AM >> Re: Placebo? >> >> >> > no. it is used to compare an active treatment to noneactive > treatment. >> The >> > problem is that any time one inserts a needle there is some > effects. >> The >> > question is do you need any training or a monkey can do as > well. That >> is >> > what a placebo is. Placebo does not mean there is no clinical > effects >> as >> > any drug study will show you. In some studies it has been as > high as >> 70%. >> > The other thing is that the effects of placebo usually do not > last. It >> is >> > therefore still a useful tool, however not the endall >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Oakland, CA 94609 >> > >> > >> > - >> > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. >> > Chinese Medicine >> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:50 PM >> > Placebo? >> > >> > >> > What does placebo really mean? It is usually thrown around > by >> > researchers as a way to dismiss or control for the very real > and >> > powerful forces of the human bodies own ability to heal > itself. >> " Just >> > believing " is not the same as placebo. I have no doubt that > we all >> have >> > the innate capacity to heal from bacterial infections and > hepatitis. >> We >> > may just need a little reminding. That's not to say I > wouldn't seek >> out >> > antibiotics for myself or my family, it is just that I want > all my >> > horses running in the same direction. When I get sick, I > see it as a >> > message my body is communicating to me. " Slow down " , " pay >> attention " , >> > " resolve this issue " . The problem is that most of us don't > view >> > sickness this way and just work at killing the messenger > (the pain, >> > illness etc.) Why not use illness as an opportunity to > reconnect >> with >> > our source instead of reinforcing our and societies > disconnect? >> > >> > The fact is that human beings have within them the power to > heal and >> be >> > healed. How this power is activated involves many factors > and is >> very >> > individualized. A profound trust and belief in the medicine > being >> one >> > of them (placebo). The will to live is the number one > determinate of >> > long term survival of cancer patients. How can this be the > case if >> the >> > drugs and radiation is what " cures " them? A study done in > 1950 >> (Journal >> > of Clinical Investigation; 1950; 29; 100-109) showed that > placebo was >> > powerful enough to turn ipecac which is normally used to > induce >> vomiting >> > into a drug that stopped nausea. >> > >> > http://www.wrf.org/news/news0017.htm is an interesting > article about >> the >> > power of placebo. >> > >> > Instead of dismissing placebo as " not real " , I believe it > should be >> > studied to find out how to maximize it's benefits in healing. >> > >> > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. >> > Oasis Acupuncture >> > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com >> > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte >> > Suite D-35 >> > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 >> > Phone: (480) 991-3650 >> > Fax: (480) 247-4472 >> > >> > >> > Chinese Medicine >> > Chinese Medicine On > Behalf Of >> > daomsnow >> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:31 AM >> > Chinese Medicine >> > Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v > Neutral >> (Even) >> > needling) >> > >> > >> > You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all > medicines. >> > However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo > is not >> > the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the > belief. >> > The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, > try " just >> > believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the > medicine thank >> > you. >> > >> > >> > Dr. Snow >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 That's just silly Don, nobody suggested acupuncture was faith healing or compared it to voodoo. If you can read over the discussion again you will see we were making the point that belief and intention apply to ALL forms of medicine - Western and Eastern Medicine alike. You were wrong to dismiss the role of belief and intention and should listen more to your students. - " Donald Snow " <don83407 <Chinese Medicine > Saturday, May 20, 2006 6:58 AM Re: Placebo? > No, my only point was that we practice real medicine, not faith healing. > This seems to have touched on some nerves. I don't swing dead chickens > over my head and with the numerous new age practitioners within our > medicine, that is how many in Western medicine perceive us. From this > discussion, it appears well founded. Too bad. > > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM > > - > Dermot O'Connor > Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:49 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Placebo? > > Don, > > I got the impression that your students thought it was important but you > didn't at all agree with them? Well I think we can now agree that > intention > and belief is very relavent and in fact is important. Sometimes > needles > work, sometimes medication works.....and indeed sometimes neither work. > Just because a treatment hasn't worked doesn't mean its not real Medicine > Acupuncture has been proven scientifically to work for many conditions. I > still disagree that its only down to accurate point location however, > which > is what the monkey anecdote implies. > > > > - > " daomsnow " <don83407 > <Chinese Medicine > > Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:08 PM > Re: Placebo? > > >>I never said it was irrelevant, I said that acupuncture should work, >> regardless. All medicine have the placebo effect, but accounting for >> placebo, the needle alone should work if placed in the proper point. >> If not, we are not practicing medicine. >> >> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM >> >> >> >> Chinese Medicine , " Dermot >> O'Connor " <dermot wrote: >>> >>> No resistance from here at all Alon, I welcome scientific >> evaluation. That >>> was never the point. In fact saying intention and belief is >> irrelavent >>> simply ignores a scientifically established fact. >>> >>> >>> - >>> " " <alonmarcus >>> <Chinese Medicine > >>> Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:05 AM >>> Re: Placebo? >>> >>> >>> nothing wrong with that the only thing science wants to objectively >> evaluate >>> is do you get better result than a none train needle sticker. I >> just don't >>> get the resistance for it. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Oakland, CA 94609 >>> >>> >>> - >>> Turiya Hill >>> Chinese Medicine >>> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:54 PM >>> Re: Placebo? >>> >>> >>> Yes. Very well said Dermott. And in my experience the confluence >> of Yi >>> Breath and Qi instigate the treatment even before the insertion >> of the >>> needles. The final sequence and pattern of treated points ( spheres >> of >>> influence) is the outer manifestation of this confluence. The >> pulses >>> change even prior to insertion. >>> - >>> Dermot O'Connor >>> Chinese Medicine >>> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:29 PM >>> Re: Placebo? >>> >>> >>> No Alon, the points made initially were twofold, point one was >> that a >>> monkey >>> or robot inserting needles into the same acupuncture points >> would always >>> yield the same results as an extremely skilled practitioner. >> You make >>> your >>> own mind up on that one, but I certainly believe that there is >> more to >>> acupuncture than accurate point location. I do think that its >>> important, >>> but also believe there is something else at play - and that as >> the texts >>> say >>> " the Yi moves the Qi. " >>> >>> Point two, was that belief and intention are totally >> irrelevant. As you >>> correctly point out its not irrelevant and can account for up >> to 70% of >>> any >>> clinical effect. >>> >>> >>> >>> - >>> " " <alonmarcus >>> <Chinese Medicine > >>> Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:04 AM >>> Re: Placebo? >>> >>> >>> > no. it is used to compare an active treatment to noneactive >> treatment. >>> The >>> > problem is that any time one inserts a needle there is some >> effects. >>> The >>> > question is do you need any training or a monkey can do as >> well. That >>> is >>> > what a placebo is. Placebo does not mean there is no clinical >> effects >>> as >>> > any drug study will show you. In some studies it has been as >> high as >>> 70%. >>> > The other thing is that the effects of placebo usually do not >> last. It >>> is >>> > therefore still a useful tool, however not the endall >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Oakland, CA 94609 >>> > >>> > >>> > - >>> > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. >>> > Chinese Medicine >>> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:50 PM >>> > Placebo? >>> > >>> > >>> > What does placebo really mean? It is usually thrown around >> by >>> > researchers as a way to dismiss or control for the very real >> and >>> > powerful forces of the human bodies own ability to heal >> itself. >>> " Just >>> > believing " is not the same as placebo. I have no doubt that >> we all >>> have >>> > the innate capacity to heal from bacterial infections and >> hepatitis. >>> We >>> > may just need a little reminding. That's not to say I >> wouldn't seek >>> out >>> > antibiotics for myself or my family, it is just that I want >> all my >>> > horses running in the same direction. When I get sick, I >> see it as a >>> > message my body is communicating to me. " Slow down " , " pay >>> attention " , >>> > " resolve this issue " . The problem is that most of us don't >> view >>> > sickness this way and just work at killing the messenger >> (the pain, >>> > illness etc.) Why not use illness as an opportunity to >> reconnect >>> with >>> > our source instead of reinforcing our and societies >> disconnect? >>> > >>> > The fact is that human beings have within them the power to >> heal and >>> be >>> > healed. How this power is activated involves many factors >> and is >>> very >>> > individualized. A profound trust and belief in the medicine >> being >>> one >>> > of them (placebo). The will to live is the number one >> determinate of >>> > long term survival of cancer patients. How can this be the >> case if >>> the >>> > drugs and radiation is what " cures " them? A study done in >> 1950 >>> (Journal >>> > of Clinical Investigation; 1950; 29; 100-109) showed that >> placebo was >>> > powerful enough to turn ipecac which is normally used to >> induce >>> vomiting >>> > into a drug that stopped nausea. >>> > >>> > http://www.wrf.org/news/news0017.htm is an interesting >> article about >>> the >>> > power of placebo. >>> > >>> > Instead of dismissing placebo as " not real " , I believe it >> should be >>> > studied to find out how to maximize it's benefits in healing. >>> > >>> > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. >>> > Oasis Acupuncture >>> > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> >> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com >>> > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte >>> > Suite D-35 >>> > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 >>> > Phone: (480) 991-3650 >>> > Fax: (480) 247-4472 >>> > >>> > >>> > Chinese Medicine >>> > Chinese Medicine On >> Behalf Of >>> > daomsnow >>> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:31 AM >>> > Chinese Medicine >>> > Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v >> Neutral >>> (Even) >>> > needling) >>> > >>> > >>> > You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all >> medicines. >>> > However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo >> is not >>> > the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the >> belief. >>> > The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, >> try " just >>> > believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the >> medicine thank >>> > you. >>> > >>> > >>> > Dr. Snow >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 Don appears to have touched on an interesting perception of our profession from some laypeople and other professionals, the idea that we are faith-healers (maybe there is a state where a person can include this as part of a religion but I have not seen it). I have found that perception to be true in some instances and very disturbing. The public can be very gullible (for example, there are still people who believe that Iraq has WMD hiding somewhere even though the myth has been dispelled long ago). While there is little doubt that our history shows some very interesting care, we should strive to better show unity behind a common message that is more about the channels and less about ancient Chinese spiritual traditions. In this way, we can have a platform to explain, treat and save face with other healthcare providers. I think that as our profession continues to expand and we see more doctoral candidates, we will gain more respect and not look so fu-fu. More hospitals are looking for graduates as well. Those who remain with the rubber chicken will continue to become less and less and so will their schools. I hate to say it but I will gladly welcome the day when we see the last mom-and-pop program in this country and the same goes for those unaccredited, abbreviated provider programs w/o any supervised clinical training. Acupuncture is becoming more mainstream and with that we must not allow for continual delusion of the training. MB : dermot: Sat, 20 May 2006 11:09:35 +0100Re: Placebo?That's just silly Don, nobody suggested acupuncture was faith healing or compared it to voodoo. If you can read over the discussion again you will see we were making the point that belief and intention apply to ALL forms of medicine - Western and Eastern Medicine alike. You were wrong to dismiss the role of belief and intention and should listen more to your students. _______________ Join the next generation of Hotmail and you could win the adventure of a lifetime http://www.imagine-msn.com/minisites/sweepstakes/mail/register.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 Again, you are preaching and have been preaching to the choir. You think I missed your point as if you were the only one to know the placebo effect. You weren't in my class and you have no idea the students I am discussing. Nor do you know their thought or mine. Acupuncture works with placebo. But antibiotics don't depend on it and neither does AOM. I'm finished with this thread. Dr. Snow Chinese Medicine , " Dermot O'Connor " <dermot wrote: > > That's just silly Don, nobody suggested acupuncture was faith healing or > compared it to voodoo. If you can read over the discussion again you will > see we were making the point that belief and intention apply to ALL forms of > medicine - Western and Eastern Medicine alike. You were wrong to dismiss > the role of belief and intention and should listen more to your students. > > > > - > " Donald Snow " <don83407 > <Chinese Medicine > > Saturday, May 20, 2006 6:58 AM > Re: Placebo? > > > > No, my only point was that we practice real medicine, not faith healing. > > This seems to have touched on some nerves. I don't swing dead chickens > > over my head and with the numerous new age practitioners within our > > medicine, that is how many in Western medicine perceive us. From this > > discussion, it appears well founded. Too bad. > > > > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM > > > > - > > Dermot O'Connor > > Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:49 AM > > Chinese Medicine > > Re: Placebo? > > > > Don, > > > > I got the impression that your students thought it was important but you > > didn't at all agree with them? Well I think we can now agree that > > intention > > and belief is very relavent and in fact is important. Sometimes > > needles > > work, sometimes medication works.....and indeed sometimes neither work. > > Just because a treatment hasn't worked doesn't mean its not real Medicine > > Acupuncture has been proven scientifically to work for many conditions. I > > still disagree that its only down to accurate point location however, > > which > > is what the monkey anecdote implies. > > > > > > > > - > > " daomsnow " <don83407 > > <Chinese Medicine > > > Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:08 PM > > Re: Placebo? > > > > > >>I never said it was irrelevant, I said that acupuncture should work, > >> regardless. All medicine have the placebo effect, but accounting for > >> placebo, the needle alone should work if placed in the proper point. > >> If not, we are not practicing medicine. > >> > >> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM > >> > >> > >> > >> Chinese Medicine , " Dermot > >> O'Connor " <dermot@> wrote: > >>> > >>> No resistance from here at all Alon, I welcome scientific > >> evaluation. That > >>> was never the point. In fact saying intention and belief is > >> irrelavent > >>> simply ignores a scientifically established fact. > >>> > >>> > >>> - > >>> " " <alonmarcus@> > >>> <Chinese Medicine > > >>> Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:05 AM > >>> Re: Placebo? > >>> > >>> > >>> nothing wrong with that the only thing science wants to objectively > >> evaluate > >>> is do you get better result than a none train needle sticker. I > >> just don't > >>> get the resistance for it. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Oakland, CA 94609 > >>> > >>> > >>> - > >>> Turiya Hill > >>> Chinese Medicine > >>> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:54 PM > >>> Re: Placebo? > >>> > >>> > >>> Yes. Very well said Dermott. And in my experience the confluence > >> of Yi > >>> Breath and Qi instigate the treatment even before the insertion > >> of the > >>> needles. The final sequence and pattern of treated points ( spheres > >> of > >>> influence) is the outer manifestation of this confluence. The > >> pulses > >>> change even prior to insertion. > >>> - > >>> Dermot O'Connor > >>> Chinese Medicine > >>> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:29 PM > >>> Re: Placebo? > >>> > >>> > >>> No Alon, the points made initially were twofold, point one was > >> that a > >>> monkey > >>> or robot inserting needles into the same acupuncture points > >> would always > >>> yield the same results as an extremely skilled practitioner. > >> You make > >>> your > >>> own mind up on that one, but I certainly believe that there is > >> more to > >>> acupuncture than accurate point location. I do think that its > >>> important, > >>> but also believe there is something else at play - and that as > >> the texts > >>> say > >>> " the Yi moves the Qi. " > >>> > >>> Point two, was that belief and intention are totally > >> irrelevant. As you > >>> correctly point out its not irrelevant and can account for up > >> to 70% of > >>> any > >>> clinical effect. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> - > >>> " " <alonmarcus@> > >>> <Chinese Medicine > > >>> Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:04 AM > >>> Re: Placebo? > >>> > >>> > >>> > no. it is used to compare an active treatment to noneactive > >> treatment. > >>> The > >>> > problem is that any time one inserts a needle there is some > >> effects. > >>> The > >>> > question is do you need any training or a monkey can do as > >> well. That > >>> is > >>> > what a placebo is. Placebo does not mean there is no clinical > >> effects > >>> as > >>> > any drug study will show you. In some studies it has been as > >> high as > >>> 70%. > >>> > The other thing is that the effects of placebo usually do not > >> last. It > >>> is > >>> > therefore still a useful tool, however not the endall > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Oakland, CA 94609 > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > - > >>> > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. > >>> > Chinese Medicine > >>> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:50 PM > >>> > Placebo? > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > What does placebo really mean? It is usually thrown around > >> by > >>> > researchers as a way to dismiss or control for the very real > >> and > >>> > powerful forces of the human bodies own ability to heal > >> itself. > >>> " Just > >>> > believing " is not the same as placebo. I have no doubt that > >> we all > >>> have > >>> > the innate capacity to heal from bacterial infections and > >> hepatitis. > >>> We > >>> > may just need a little reminding. That's not to say I > >> wouldn't seek > >>> out > >>> > antibiotics for myself or my family, it is just that I want > >> all my > >>> > horses running in the same direction. When I get sick, I > >> see it as a > >>> > message my body is communicating to me. " Slow down " , " pay > >>> attention " , > >>> > " resolve this issue " . The problem is that most of us don't > >> view > >>> > sickness this way and just work at killing the messenger > >> (the pain, > >>> > illness etc.) Why not use illness as an opportunity to > >> reconnect > >>> with > >>> > our source instead of reinforcing our and societies > >> disconnect? > >>> > > >>> > The fact is that human beings have within them the power to > >> heal and > >>> be > >>> > healed. How this power is activated involves many factors > >> and is > >>> very > >>> > individualized. A profound trust and belief in the medicine > >> being > >>> one > >>> > of them (placebo). The will to live is the number one > >> determinate of > >>> > long term survival of cancer patients. How can this be the > >> case if > >>> the > >>> > drugs and radiation is what " cures " them? A study done in > >> 1950 > >>> (Journal > >>> > of Clinical Investigation; 1950; 29; 100-109) showed that > >> placebo was > >>> > powerful enough to turn ipecac which is normally used to > >> induce > >>> vomiting > >>> > into a drug that stopped nausea. > >>> > > >>> > http://www.wrf.org/news/news0017.htm is an interesting > >> article about > >>> the > >>> > power of placebo. > >>> > > >>> > Instead of dismissing placebo as " not real " , I believe it > >> should be > >>> > studied to find out how to maximize it's benefits in healing. > >>> > > >>> > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > >>> > Oasis Acupuncture > >>> > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> > >> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > >>> > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > >>> > Suite D-35 > >>> > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > >>> > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > >>> > Fax: (480) 247-4472 > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Chinese Medicine > >>> > Chinese Medicine On > >> Behalf Of > >>> > daomsnow > >>> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:31 AM > >>> > Chinese Medicine > >>> > Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v > >> Neutral > >>> (Even) > >>> > needling) > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all > >> medicines. > >>> > However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo > >> is not > >>> > the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the > >> belief. > >>> > The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, > >> try " just > >>> > believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the > >> medicine thank > >>> > you. > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Dr. Snow > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 Promise? - daomsnow Saturday, May 20, 2006 9:41 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Placebo? Again, you are preaching and have been preaching to the choir. You think I missed your point as if you were the only one to know the placebo effect. You weren't in my class and you have no idea the students I am discussing. Nor do you know their thought or mine. Acupuncture works with placebo. But antibiotics don't depend on it and neither does AOM. I'm finished with this thread. Dr. Snow Chinese Medicine , " Dermot O'Connor " <dermot wrote: > > That's just silly Don, nobody suggested acupuncture was faith healing or > compared it to voodoo. If you can read over the discussion again you will > see we were making the point that belief and intention apply to ALL forms of > medicine - Western and Eastern Medicine alike. You were wrong to dismiss > the role of belief and intention and should listen more to your students. > > > > - > " Donald Snow " <don83407 > <Chinese Medicine > > Saturday, May 20, 2006 6:58 AM > Re: Placebo? > > > > No, my only point was that we practice real medicine, not faith healing. > > This seems to have touched on some nerves. I don't swing dead chickens > > over my head and with the numerous new age practitioners within our > > medicine, that is how many in Western medicine perceive us. From this > > discussion, it appears well founded. Too bad. > > > > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM > > > > - > > Dermot O'Connor > > Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:49 AM > > Chinese Medicine > > Re: Placebo? > > > > Don, > > > > I got the impression that your students thought it was important but you > > didn't at all agree with them? Well I think we can now agree that > > intention > > and belief is very relavent and in fact is important. Sometimes > > needles > > work, sometimes medication works.....and indeed sometimes neither work. > > Just because a treatment hasn't worked doesn't mean its not real Medicine > > Acupuncture has been proven scientifically to work for many conditions. I > > still disagree that its only down to accurate point location however, > > which > > is what the monkey anecdote implies. > > > > > > > > - > > " daomsnow " <don83407 > > <Chinese Medicine > > > Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:08 PM > > Re: Placebo? > > > > > >>I never said it was irrelevant, I said that acupuncture should work, > >> regardless. All medicine have the placebo effect, but accounting for > >> placebo, the needle alone should work if placed in the proper point. > >> If not, we are not practicing medicine. > >> > >> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM > >> > >> > >> > >> Chinese Medicine , " Dermot > >> O'Connor " <dermot@> wrote: > >>> > >>> No resistance from here at all Alon, I welcome scientific > >> evaluation. That > >>> was never the point. In fact saying intention and belief is > >> irrelavent > >>> simply ignores a scientifically established fact. > >>> > >>> > >>> - > >>> " " <alonmarcus@> > >>> <Chinese Medicine > > >>> Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:05 AM > >>> Re: Placebo? > >>> > >>> > >>> nothing wrong with that the only thing science wants to objectively > >> evaluate > >>> is do you get better result than a none train needle sticker. I > >> just don't > >>> get the resistance for it. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Oakland, CA 94609 > >>> > >>> > >>> - > >>> Turiya Hill > >>> Chinese Medicine > >>> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:54 PM > >>> Re: Placebo? > >>> > >>> > >>> Yes. Very well said Dermott. And in my experience the confluence > >> of Yi > >>> Breath and Qi instigate the treatment even before the insertion > >> of the > >>> needles. The final sequence and pattern of treated points ( spheres > >> of > >>> influence) is the outer manifestation of this confluence. The > >> pulses > >>> change even prior to insertion. > >>> - > >>> Dermot O'Connor > >>> Chinese Medicine > >>> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:29 PM > >>> Re: Placebo? > >>> > >>> > >>> No Alon, the points made initially were twofold, point one was > >> that a > >>> monkey > >>> or robot inserting needles into the same acupuncture points > >> would always > >>> yield the same results as an extremely skilled practitioner. > >> You make > >>> your > >>> own mind up on that one, but I certainly believe that there is > >> more to > >>> acupuncture than accurate point location. I do think that its > >>> important, > >>> but also believe there is something else at play - and that as > >> the texts > >>> say > >>> " the Yi moves the Qi. " > >>> > >>> Point two, was that belief and intention are totally > >> irrelevant. As you > >>> correctly point out its not irrelevant and can account for up > >> to 70% of > >>> any > >>> clinical effect. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> - > >>> " " <alonmarcus@> > >>> <Chinese Medicine > > >>> Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:04 AM > >>> Re: Placebo? > >>> > >>> > >>> > no. it is used to compare an active treatment to noneactive > >> treatment. > >>> The > >>> > problem is that any time one inserts a needle there is some > >> effects. > >>> The > >>> > question is do you need any training or a monkey can do as > >> well. That > >>> is > >>> > what a placebo is. Placebo does not mean there is no clinical > >> effects > >>> as > >>> > any drug study will show you. In some studies it has been as > >> high as > >>> 70%. > >>> > The other thing is that the effects of placebo usually do not > >> last. It > >>> is > >>> > therefore still a useful tool, however not the endall > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Oakland, CA 94609 > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > - > >>> > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. > >>> > Chinese Medicine > >>> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:50 PM > >>> > Placebo? > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > What does placebo really mean? It is usually thrown around > >> by > >>> > researchers as a way to dismiss or control for the very real > >> and > >>> > powerful forces of the human bodies own ability to heal > >> itself. > >>> " Just > >>> > believing " is not the same as placebo. I have no doubt that > >> we all > >>> have > >>> > the innate capacity to heal from bacterial infections and > >> hepatitis. > >>> We > >>> > may just need a little reminding. That's not to say I > >> wouldn't seek > >>> out > >>> > antibiotics for myself or my family, it is just that I want > >> all my > >>> > horses running in the same direction. When I get sick, I > >> see it as a > >>> > message my body is communicating to me. " Slow down " , " pay > >>> attention " , > >>> > " resolve this issue " . The problem is that most of us don't > >> view > >>> > sickness this way and just work at killing the messenger > >> (the pain, > >>> > illness etc.) Why not use illness as an opportunity to > >> reconnect > >>> with > >>> > our source instead of reinforcing our and societies > >> disconnect? > >>> > > >>> > The fact is that human beings have within them the power to > >> heal and > >>> be > >>> > healed. How this power is activated involves many factors > >> and is > >>> very > >>> > individualized. A profound trust and belief in the medicine > >> being > >>> one > >>> > of them (placebo). The will to live is the number one > >> determinate of > >>> > long term survival of cancer patients. How can this be the > >> case if > >>> the > >>> > drugs and radiation is what " cures " them? A study done in > >> 1950 > >>> (Journal > >>> > of Clinical Investigation; 1950; 29; 100-109) showed that > >> placebo was > >>> > powerful enough to turn ipecac which is normally used to > >> induce > >>> vomiting > >>> > into a drug that stopped nausea. > >>> > > >>> > http://www.wrf.org/news/news0017.htm is an interesting > >> article about > >>> the > >>> > power of placebo. > >>> > > >>> > Instead of dismissing placebo as " not real " , I believe it > >> should be > >>> > studied to find out how to maximize it's benefits in healing. > >>> > > >>> > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > >>> > Oasis Acupuncture > >>> > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> > >> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > >>> > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > >>> > Suite D-35 > >>> > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > >>> > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > >>> > Fax: (480) 247-4472 > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Chinese Medicine > >>> > Chinese Medicine On > >> Behalf Of > >>> > daomsnow > >>> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:31 AM > >>> > Chinese Medicine > >>> > Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v > >> Neutral > >>> (Even) > >>> > needling) > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all > >> medicines. > >>> > However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo > >> is not > >>> > the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the > >> belief. > >>> > The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, > >> try " just > >>> > believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the > >> medicine thank > >>> > you. > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Dr. Snow > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 Sorry Susie for not cropping the messages...... Yes, I also agree this thread has run its course, so this will be my final word. True, I wasn't in your class and I'm just relying on what you have told us - although that seems to change. Initially it seems like you had no time for your students advocating the role of belief and intention and now its common knowledge and you fully accept it. Of course I know that there is more to acupuncture than placebo. The point is that there is also more to acupuncture than simply point location and a needle being inserted by a monkey is different from a needle being inserted by a trained acupuncturist - even if the location is identical. There are simply other factors at play and there is nothing hocus pocus or tree hugging about saying that. These other factors also apply to Western Medicine. By the way, I have first hand experience of the effect of the mind on the body (and can quote you lots of scientific studies which establish just how profound it is). In 1998 I was diagnosed with an aggressive form of MS and the neurologist told me that it was most likely that I would lose mobility in a matter of months. Almost as if I was following instructions I started to decline rapidly. Thankfully I managed to turn my thinking (intention) around and quite quickly I began to recover. Now 8 years later I remain symptom free and still actively competitive in sports. I'm also sorry that our exchange turned as caustic is it did and I aplogise to you Don if I caused offence. Kind regards Dermot LLAHN (Likes Letters After His Name) - " daomsnow " <don83407 <Chinese Medicine > Saturday, May 20, 2006 2:25 PM Re: Placebo? Again, you are preaching and have been preaching to the choir. You think I missed your point as if you were the only one to know the placebo effect. You weren't in my class and you have no idea the students I am discussing. Nor do you know their thought or mine. Acupuncture works with placebo. But antibiotics don't depend on it and neither does AOM. I'm finished with this thread. Dr. Snow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 I think Don has a good point the rest of you seem to be grumpy and nit-picking, except the student of Jeff Yuen. I know the type of students Don is talking about, they think they can put a needle into any point, then " pray " or focus their intention to make the treatment do whatever. With the point indications in mosty modern tcm texts you might as well do that, because without understanding all the systems fully, you'll never know if the point will work as " indicated " , so people are guessing all the time in modern acupuncture. The placebo model for testing therapies is outdated, and its importance is over-rated. Are you acupuncturists arguing using this " placebo technique " on yor patients? I spoke with the head pharmacist at Macleans mental hospital in Boston about the placebo model, now they are testing drugs against each other instead of a sugar pill as per my idea. I think unless you are a Taoist priest or a qi gong master to not rely on " intenton " for therapeutic effect. Although it can't hurt to " pray " for someone's health and they have done some studies on the power of prayer for healing in a Western setting, and I beloieve they did use a placebo in those studies as well. Chinese Medicine , " Dermot O'Connor " <dermot wrote: > > Sorry Susie for not cropping the messages...... > > Yes, I also agree this thread has run its course, so this will be my final > word. True, I wasn't in your class and I'm just relying on what you have > told us - although that seems to change. Initially it seems like you had no > time for your students advocating the role of belief and intention and now > its common knowledge and you fully accept it. Of course I know that there > is more to acupuncture than placebo. The point is that there is also more > to acupuncture than simply point location and a needle being inserted by a > monkey is different from a needle being inserted by a trained > acupuncturist - even if the location is identical. There are simply other > factors at play and there is nothing hocus pocus or tree hugging about > saying that. These other factors also apply to Western Medicine. > > By the way, I have first hand experience of the effect of the mind on the > body (and can quote you lots of scientific studies which establish just how > profound it is). In 1998 I was diagnosed with an aggressive form of MS and > the neurologist told me that it was most likely that I would lose mobility > in a matter of months. Almost as if I was following instructions I started > to decline rapidly. Thankfully I managed to turn my thinking (intention) > around and quite quickly I began to recover. Now 8 years later I remain > symptom free and still actively competitive in sports. > > I'm also sorry that our exchange turned as caustic is it did and I aplogise > to you Don if I caused offence. > > Kind regards > > Dermot > > LLAHN (Likes Letters After His Name) > > > > - > " daomsnow " <don83407 > <Chinese Medicine > > Saturday, May 20, 2006 2:25 PM > Re: Placebo? > > > > Again, you are preaching and have been preaching to the choir. You > think I missed your point as if you were the only one to know the > placebo effect. You weren't in my class and you have no idea the > students I am discussing. Nor do you know their thought or mine. > > Acupuncture works with placebo. But antibiotics don't depend on it > and neither does AOM. I'm finished with this thread. > > Dr. Snow > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 I feel there is a distinct difference between " placebo " as it is used in this context, and " intention " . Intention is not simply " hoping the patient gets better " but a highly cultivated state of being. Gandhi had intention, Mother Theresa had intention. Intention shows itself in powerful ways in the lives of those who are touched by it. It isn't some mystical power, but a state of being that is highly focused and congruent. I'm sure most of us have met with people who just have a very powerful presence be in in martial arts, politics or medicine. I also feel that acupuncture points work on a holographic model of the body. If this is true, theoretically any point can affect any organ or cause any result. However, different points and meridians of the body concentrate different aspects of our physical, psychological and spiritual being. For example, LI-4 is a more effective point for treating pain, issues of the face and the large intestine organ system than say UB-40. That is not to say that UB-40 can't be used for these indications, but it isn't as powerful. The holographic pattern isn't as dense at UB-40 as it is in LI-4 for those indications. I agree that claiming to use " intention " without serious self cultivation or understanding of the flow and nature of Qi in acupuncture treatments is a dismissive approach to this medicine. When someone like Jeffery Yuen talks about using intention in his treatments I pay attention, when a 2nd year acupuncture student talks about it I suspect they are reducing acupuncture down to " faith healing " . The fact is that the needles do induce specific changes to the bodies energy and the point location and prescription is important. Intention or no intention I believe this is the case. However, I also believe that a significant difference between a new practitioner and someone who has be doing it for 30 years is the level of their cultivated intention to more powerfully affect the treatment. Time alone isn't sufficient to cultivate intent. Some people seem to be gifted with clarity and focus beyond their years. My 2 cents. :-) Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of jasonwcom Saturday, May 20, 2006 12:32 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Placebo? I think Don has a good point the rest of you seem to be grumpy and nit-picking, except the student of Jeff Yuen. I know the type of students Don is talking about, they think they can put a needle into any point, then " pray " or focus their intention to make the treatment do whatever. With the point indications in mosty modern tcm texts you might as well do that, because without understanding all the systems fully, you'll never know if the point will work as " indicated " , so people are guessing all the time in modern acupuncture. The placebo model for testing therapies is outdated, and its importance is over-rated. Are you acupuncturists arguing using this " placebo technique " on yor patients? I spoke with the head pharmacist at Macleans mental hospital in Boston about the placebo model, now they are testing drugs against each other instead of a sugar pill as per my idea. I think unless you are a Taoist priest or a qi gong master to not rely on " intenton " for therapeutic effect. Although it can't hurt to " pray " for someone's health and they have done some studies on the power of prayer for healing in a Western setting, and I beloieve they did use a placebo in those studies as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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