Guest guest Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 Wow: Here we are on the Business Monster again. Dr. Snow, I don't know how long you have been aboard but there is a lot in the archives on this. However it is a subject I have trouble walking away from - since I still am trying to comes to grips with it myself. I feel I fall between Mike and Dr. Snow somewhere. My recent challenge is cancellations. I feel I know my patients so well that I don't want to charge them for emergiences that come up. But the bottom line is I lost $500 in one week which is an ouch. By the way, income that week should theoretically cover my retirement, health insurance, life insurance - all those wonderful things the educational world did cover. As I was explaining to a friend of mine. I am now holding 4 tickets to the Baltimore Orioles vs. Florida Marlins game on June 22. This is a $160 value. I just learned about an herb course open house on that same night. If I go to the open house, I am out at least $40, maybe $80 or $160. The point is, it is a service that I have paid for because, if I don't, there will be no game - no fans, no franchise. I realize this is entertainment and not health care, Mike, and we still have to make a living and be able to stay in business. Most practitioners I know that are loose about this or charge low rates are working somewhere else full time. Like the engineer that does this a few nights a week and runs and herbal pharmacy. He has retirement, health insurance and all those nice things. When you are looking at it as a primary business, you have to be willing to make money. Now here is where I agree with Mike. I think everyone should have access to health care, but it doesn't have to be private practice health care. It can be in a clinical setting subsidized by the government. It may not be cadillac health care, but it is health care. I haven't seen the clinics in China but I have heard alot of people are treated at one time. Another possiblity is to run a private practice like a clinic - something like the working class acupuncture idea or using auricular acupuncutre. I worked in drug rehab clinics, use auricular acupunctue, as part of my schooling. A lot of healing can take place in these settings. You just have to be set up to run things in a group fashion.. I don't know where I am going with this other than I do think we all should be able to earn a good living practicing acupuncuture and/or herbs. We should be able to be in private practice and do it full time if we choose. Anne daomsnow wrote: >Treat enough people for free and see how long you continue treating >patients. I've been there and done that. They'll suck you dry. > >Dr. Snow > > >Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " ><naturaldoc1 wrote: > > >>Bart, >>Good to have you aboard. First, it has been reported in the media >> >> >as $1500/household ($1000 in MN) and based upon average incomes >reported to the govt. I think that these might have been adjusted for >inflation (not sure). > > >>Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 AB 3014, which would define " Asian Massage " in the L.Ac. scope to include manual therapy and myofascial release, is on a fast track to a vote on the Assembly floor and may be heard as soon as tomorrow Thursday 5-18. *NOW is the time to act to close the loophole that has allowed insurers to deny reimbursement for manual therapy and myofascial release performed by L.Ac.s Please call/fax your support to the key Assemblypeople BY 5:00 P.M. today* *Wednesday 5-17, who are*: Oakland, CA 94609 - Anne Crowley Chinese Medicine Wednesday, May 17, 2006 10:48 AM Re: Bill: a Response Wow: Here we are on the Business Monster again. Dr. Snow, I don't know how long you have been aboard but there is a lot in the archives on this. However it is a subject I have trouble walking away from - since I still am trying to comes to grips with it myself. I feel I fall between Mike and Dr. Snow somewhere. My recent challenge is cancellations. I feel I know my patients so well that I don't want to charge them for emergiences that come up. But the bottom line is I lost $500 in one week which is an ouch. By the way, income that week should theoretically cover my retirement, health insurance, life insurance - all those wonderful things the educational world did cover. As I was explaining to a friend of mine. I am now holding 4 tickets to the Baltimore Orioles vs. Florida Marlins game on June 22. This is a $160 value. I just learned about an herb course open house on that same night. If I go to the open house, I am out at least $40, maybe $80 or $160. The point is, it is a service that I have paid for because, if I don't, there will be no game - no fans, no franchise. I realize this is entertainment and not health care, Mike, and we still have to make a living and be able to stay in business. Most practitioners I know that are loose about this or charge low rates are working somewhere else full time. Like the engineer that does this a few nights a week and runs and herbal pharmacy. He has retirement, health insurance and all those nice things. When you are looking at it as a primary business, you have to be willing to make money. Now here is where I agree with Mike. I think everyone should have access to health care, but it doesn't have to be private practice health care. It can be in a clinical setting subsidized by the government. It may not be cadillac health care, but it is health care. I haven't seen the clinics in China but I have heard alot of people are treated at one time. Another possiblity is to run a private practice like a clinic - something like the working class acupuncture idea or using auricular acupuncutre. I worked in drug rehab clinics, use auricular acupunctue, as part of my schooling. A lot of healing can take place in these settings. You just have to be set up to run things in a group fashion.. I don't know where I am going with this other than I do think we all should be able to earn a good living practicing acupuncuture and/or herbs. We should be able to be in private practice and do it full time if we choose. Anne daomsnow wrote: >Treat enough people for free and see how long you continue treating >patients. I've been there and done that. They'll suck you dry. > >Dr. Snow > > >Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " ><naturaldoc1 wrote: > > >>Bart, >>Good to have you aboard. First, it has been reported in the media >> >> >as $1500/household ($1000 in MN) and based upon average incomes >reported to the govt. I think that these might have been adjusted for >inflation (not sure). > > >>Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 Anne, Do you have a written cancellation policy which you have hopefully shared with your patients? If not, is there some reason why you have not thus far? Do you think it is fair to charge a portion or your full fee for a missed appointment w/o advanced cancellation? As a business owner, I would think it would be a reasonable consideration especially with the weather getting nicer outside. Others might have other good ideas on this as well. Good topic. By the way, a single payer universal coverage system does not replace all care with hospitals but rather puts the decisions back with the provider/patient as to medicine but is paid for by the govt. Overheads are kept low unlike the HMO/insr and the actual medical decisions are your own. Just an FYI, the US spends almost twice as much per capita on healthcare as the next closest industrialized country and yet we rank a dismal 25th in quality. This does not appear that we are getting our money's worth. In CA, a bill dealing with this has passed out of committee and yet to be voted on by the full legislature. Go CA!Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : blazing.valley: Wed, 17 May 2006 13:48:55 -0400Re: TCM - Bill: a ResponseWow: Here we are on the Business Monster again. Dr. Snow, I don't know how long you have been aboard but there is a lot in the archives on this. However it is a subject I have trouble walking away from - since I still am trying to comes to grips with it myself.I feel I fall between Mike and Dr. Snow somewhere. My recent challenge is cancellations. I feel I know my patients so well that I don't want to charge them for emergiences that come up. But the bottom line is I lost $500 in one week which is an ouch. By the way, income that week should theoretically cover my retirement, health insurance, life insurance - all those wonderful things the educational world did cover.As I was explaining to a friend of mine. I am now holding 4 tickets to the Baltimore Orioles vs. Florida Marlins game on June 22. This is a $160 value. I just learned about an herb course open house on that same night. If I go to the open house, I am out at least $40, maybe $80 or $160. The point is, it is a service that I have paid for because, if I don't, there will be no game - no fans, no franchise. I realize this is entertainment and not health care, Mike, and we still have to make a living and be able to stay in business. Most practitioners I know that are loose about this or charge low rates are working somewhere else full time. Like the engineer that does this a few nights a week and runs and herbal pharmacy. He has retirement, health insurance and all those nice things. When you are looking at it as a primary business, you have to be willing to make money.Now here is where I agree with Mike. I think everyone should have access to health care, but it doesn't have to be private practice health care. It can be in a clinical setting subsidized by the government. It may not be cadillac health care, but it is health care. I haven't seen the clinics in China but I have heard alot of people are treated at one time. Another possiblity is to run a private practice like a clinic - something like the working class acupuncture idea or using auricular acupuncutre. I worked in drug rehab clinics, use auricular acupunctue, as part of my schooling. A lot of healing can take place in these settings. You just have to be set up to run things in a group fashion..I don't know where I am going with this other than I do think we all should be able to earn a good living practicing acupuncuture and/or herbs. We should be able to be in private practice and do it full time if we choose.Annedaomsnow wrote:>Treat enough people for free and see how long you continue treating >patients. I've been there and done that. They'll suck you dry. >>Dr. Snow>>>Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " ><naturaldoc1 wrote:> >>>Bart,>>Good to have you aboard. First, it has been reported in the media >> >>>as $1500/household ($1000 in MN) and based upon average incomes >reported to the govt. I think that these might have been adjusted for >inflation (not sure). > >>>Mike W. Bowser, L Ac>>>>>> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Dear Mike, I don't at all disagree that we need a single payer, nor do I disagree that all people should have access to health care. But we live in reality and we must deal with it. Dr. Snow Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > Don, > This brings up the importance of why we need to get a single payer, universal coverage healthcare system in place. It is no longer an option. Remeber GM or Ford or even Toyota. The first two have been claiming hardships due to healthcare costs killing their ability to be competitive. The last one opened a plant that was destined for the US in Canada, because of its healthcare system. Economics, economics, economics, my friend is what affects all of us. Patients are having to cover more out of pocket, policies are covering less, employers are also and then you have declining or stagnant wages. This all ties together the need for the type of solution mentioned above. On a smaller level, it sounds good to say get another job or take responsibility but for many they are past that point and already have an illness. We will continue to see more ER cases. > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > -------------- > > Chinese Medicine > > don83407 > > Wed, 17 May 2006 06:51:24 +0000 > > Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response > > > > Treat enough people for free and see how long you continue treating > > patients. I've been there and done that. They'll suck you dry. > > Dr. Snow > > Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " > > <naturaldoc1@> wrote: > > > > > > Bart, > > > Good to have you aboard. First, it has been reported in the media > > as $1500/household ($1000 in MN) and based upon average incomes > > reported to the govt. I think that these might have been adjusted for > > inflation (not sure). If you have other numbers, please post them. > > Second, it is the right of all beings by virtue of the fact that > > continually our biology makes it so until we pass away. In addition, > > our wonderful govt has made it so thru various programs. We can also > > find that the pursuit of happiness seems to cover this as well. As > > healthcare providers it would make me surprised to find out that we > > do not collectively support our moral/ethical obligation of helping > > first and business second. Are you suggesting otherwise? > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > @: gbp3@: Tue, 16 May 2006 > > 11:32:44 -0700RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a > > ResponseI'm coming late to the party, but a few points:First. Out of > > what you pull that $1500 number? Second. I agree with Don. Where > > is it written that healthcare is a right?Third. It's the pursuit of > > happiness, not the guarantee of Happiness. Bart-----Original Message- > > ----Chinese Medicine > > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > > mikeBowserTuesday, May 16, 2006 10:36 AMTo: > > Chinese Medicine@: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: > > a ResponseDon,This is not the reality for most Americans (family > > incomes are nationallydown $1500/household and the lowest in years). > > Healthcare is a right and aresponsibility both morally and ethically > > which is why it is often silly tohear discussions about healthcare > > spending as an economic business. I wantpeople to care for their > > health as well but am finding that our currentsystem has taken too > > much capital from people (making them broke) and thenadding to their > > overall debt burden. It is implied in the Bill of Rightsunder the > > section of pursuit of Happiness. One cannot be happy if they > > areill. Additionally you have a right to Medicare if poor as well as > > manyother programs. I agree that people need to take more > > responsibility fortheir health but then again pharma and medical reps > > want the masses toremain stupified while they take all their money. > > It is all interconnected(much like Ted's " Web that has no weaver " ). > > My point here was about makingchanges to a broken s!ystem, not trying > > to punish the poor or have them take out anothermortgage. Your > > service to our country was never an issue. Later.Mike W. Bowser, L > > Ac--------------> To: > > Chinese Medicine > don83407@> > > Tue, 16 May 2006 06:23:08 -0700> Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: > > Bill: a Response> > But yet these same folks are able to buy > > fine cars and they find the moneyto go out to dinner often, but > > homes, detail their cars, etc. Yet theydon't want to pay for their > > health care. I've seen many who would ratherdie than pay for health > > care, even though they can. Health care is not aright. Nor is it in > > our Bill of Rights or constitution. I want people whocare about > > their health. I am not presumptuous, I'm realistic. This islife. > > Our country has become one in which folks demand " rights. " They > > usedto assume responsiblity for themselves. You can call me anything > > you want.But I earned the right to speak my mind and I fought for > > yours.> Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC> CPT, USA (Ret.)> ----- Original > > Message -----> mike Bowser> Tuesday, May 16, 2006 5:58 > > AM> Chinese Medicine > RE: > > Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response> Don,> A good practitioner is > > good but a great one is great. Knowledge is powerand I desire to > > practice a more complete AOM, that includes bone setting (atleast > > joint manipulations). To this I want strong skills in xray and > > labsto be able to better understand and refer patients > > appropriately. Soundslike your DAOM but there was no such program > > several years ago. There stillare no DAOM programs east of the > > rockies.> You seem mighty presumptuous about personal economics. Do > > you know howmany mfg plants have closed in the last five years? Most > > people aremortgaged to the max and even the so- called middle class > > are unable toafford to pay for healthcare services. A whopping 41% > > of Americans nolonger carry any healthcare coverage and this includes > > catastrophic. Thisproblem is much larger then you can imagine and > > truly borders on crisis.Some legislators want to mandate coverage > > much like auto insr. They fail tosee that it is due to employers > > wages and a largely unregulated insrindustry that is creating this > > mess often with no mention of costcontainment. It is a fantasy to > > expect that AOM will have much of an impactor that cash-only > > practices will continue unchanged.> Healthcare is a right not an > > option. People will wait to go to the ER(recent study has shown an > > increase here) and this will continue to drainour govt. We need to > > get educated about this problem so we can help withsolutions.> I will > > leave you with one final thought. The chiro is a strong group > > andthey are following the same methods as the MD did with both > > Osteopathy orhomeopathy. The latter is considered the practice of > > medicine in CA, gofigure. It is about competition not efficacy. > > Also consider that in thosestates where a DC can practice with > > minimal training, there will be problemsfor the AOM profession as it > > dilutes our professional ops. Many times, weare not even considered > > the real professionals. We have both an imageproblem as well as > > scope issues.> There are good DC just like there are good LAc.> Mike > > W. Bowser, L Ac> @:don83407@: > > Mon, 15 May 2006 21:57:58 -0700Re: Re: Re:Re: TCM - Bill: a > > ResponseI believe the DAOM programs to be complete andwith more than > > enough western medicine. We practice AOM or intergratedmedicine, > > which is essentially what the DAOM is all about. That's why I > > nolonger practice western medicine. We do one or the other. When I > > talk ofintegrative medicine, I talk of using western diagnostics and > > some limitedwestern therapeutical equipment. For instance, I use the > > Electroacuscopeand ElectroMyopulse in my practice. I have adapted > > these two FDA approvedClass II Medical equipment into our AOM theory > > and my results with thesemachines is phenomenal compared to the > > results allopaths get with these samepieces of equipment. However, > > if your prime motivating role is to be ableto bill more insurance, I > > guess Chiro is OK. But my prime motive is to healthe patient, and > > generally, if you g!et the results and they know you do, they will > > come up with the funds topay you even if they have to borrow it. I > > also offer CareCredit in myclinic. Yeah, I wish more insurance paid > > us, but it's not worth learninganother medicine. Especially a > > medicine that I think is inferior to AOM.If Chiros had such great > > medicine, why are they tripping over themselvestrying to get > > acupuncture in their scope of practice? That being said, Ithink I > > have had to refer 2 people to Chiros. But usually, I get > > manypatients that have been failed by them and AOM works.Dr. Don > > Snow, DAOM,MPH, L.Ac.-mike > > BowserMonday, May 15,2006 3:14 PMTo: > > Chinese Medicine@: RE: Re:Re: Re: Bill: a > > ResponseDon,I understand and looked into DO programsbut was > > uninspired by the drugs and surgery and nothing local (I would loseop > > to spend time with my daughter). I am doing a chiro program to add > > to myknowledge base and als!o increase my scope in helping patients. > > Few MD know how to read an xray and I happen to think this is > > something we should know. As for themanipulation, that issue would > > be a non-issue for a DC/LAc. If you look atthose practitioners from > > Asia many have a lot more WM and I would considerto be closer to MD > > or DC depending upon their training. I hope that ourprofession can > > model future education more in line with the DC or ND modelsIt makes > > sense. MBMike W. Bowser, L AcTo:Chinese Medicine@: > > don83407@: Mon,15 May 2006 07:11:51 -0700Re: Re: Re: TCM - > > Bill: a ResponseThereare no contradictions. It was taught out of a > > book without any hands-ontraining. That's why it was so unpopular.In > > my class, we had an M.D. thathad already gone through the MSTOM and > > he also went through the DAOM withus. Another of our classmates in > > the DAOM program in now taking the MCATs.He now wants to get the > > M.D. If I was 30 or 40 again, that's what I woulddo, I wouldn't > > waste time with Chiro school. !I never saw them set a broken bone > > either, and I believe AOM to be a morepowerful and complete medicine > > than Chiro. Chiro is basically tuina. Bythe way, I've set many > > bones and casted may patients while in the military.I didn't > > particularly like ortho and that's not an area I'm interested > > in.However, if others are interested in it, there should be a > > certificationsystem that trains us so we can do it. If and when > > medicare adds us totheir system, that's when we'll automatically be > > accepted in all insurance.I don't see that happening any time > > soon.Thanks, Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac----- Original Message -- --- > > mikeBowserMonday, May 15, 2006 6:59 > > AMTo:Chinese Medicine@: RE: Re: Re: Bill:a > > ResponseDon,There seems to be some confusion. You stated below, " I > > teachat PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. > > When !I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting > > which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope > > ofpractice. " Several misconceptions come out of your above statement > > that arein contradiction with each other. If a bone-setting class > > was taught in thePCOM DAOM program, and the school only teaches what > > is in the scope ofpractice, how can this topic be outside our scope > > of practice? Second, bonesetting involves movement of joints, hence > > my question about joint movementto begin with. We do not need to > > perform a HVLA or spell out adjustment inorder to move bones. I have > > found that many students lack a clear pictureof what we can perform > > as well. Even massage therapists are allowed to movethings. Glad > > you enjoyed your DAOM and hope that many others will pursuethis as > > well. It is definitely a good idea to get WM training to a > > higherlevel as well. That is one big reason that I am currently > > attending a DCprogram. In summary, I choose to get involved with > > knowing about ourfuture healthcare system !and am encouraging others > > to learn about the economics and decisions thatencompass trying to > > continue with our costly, bloated and ineffectivesystem. I also > > think that we need to become political supporters ofremoving insr/HMO > > from the mix. Many of today's alt med professionals(DC,ND, LAc) are > > seeing a stepped up attack, both within legislation, as wellas by > > third party payers to exclude them. Cash is great but many of the 41% > > of un-insureds cannot afford this. We need to have options or they > > willcontinue to use the expensive ER for routine things. Take > > care.MBTo:Chinese Medicine@: don83407@: Sun,14 May > > 2006 19:27:43 -0700Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseI neversaid > > it was outside our scope of practice; you said it. If you > > actuallyread my primary response you will see what I said. I fully > > agree with you.We are, and should legally be, primary care physicians > > within the medicalsystem. That's why I went the ex!tra 10 yards and > > earned the Doctorate degree. I try not only to " talkthe talk, but to > > walk the walk. " It was not an easy degree, nor was itcheap. It was > > a real doctorate. If you'll notice. I practiced Westernmedicine > > for 22 years, and not usually under the supervision of an M.D.I've > > performed appendectomies, sutured, prescribed medications, > > admittedpatients, etc. I've been in 3 wars and I've forgotten more > > western medicinethan most acupuncturists will probably ever learn, > > except perhaps in a book.Today, I practice TCM and I integrate WM > > when necessary, I order labs,xrays, and request (and usually get) > > MRI's and other costly diagnosticsbecause I know the system and I > > teach my patients how to use the system. Iam not under any HMOs or > > Managed Care, I fired ASHP two years ago for, Ibelieve, cheating me > > I have a cash only practice and am relativelysuccessful. I own or > > co-own two corporations and both are actually makingmoney. Yes, I > > hate the current system because we have so much to offer.We do not > > have the lobby money! necessary to compete with either the Chiros or > > the allopaths because wehave so many competing acupuncture > > associations none are making any realmoney. Those that are well > > funded allow allopaths and Chiros in membershipsand then we find > > those organizations no longer really represent us. I amnot totally > > ignorant of what is going on out there. Like you, I resent itand I'm > > frustrated. But until WE get together on the SAME sheet, we willstay > > fragmented. That's the only answer I have. I suggest that > > everyoneget the doctorate, then they have no more excuses because our > > doctorate isessentially 2 more years of full time education than > > theirs. Everyone seemsto want to get the licensing names changed to > > DOM, OMD, etc. But thenthat's not really a doctorate degree, is it? > > We also get a heck of a lot ofhours in Western medicine (I know that > > because that's what I teach). Theyget almost no hours in our > > medicine. The laws were written by them, forthem. So the only w! ay > > to change it is through your and my patient base. My patients get > > relief and it's usually the only place they received it. Most come > > to meyears AFTER Western medicine and Chiro has failed them. > > Frankly, when theyget the relief many are mad as hell because they > > have been told the " GrandLie " the nobody can help them. " You're > > incurable, etc, etc, ad nauseum,.... " These folks vote..and THEY might > > can change the system. I don't needsomebody who has no idea where I > > come from or where I've been asking me asilly sarcastic > > question, " Can you move joints? " Thanks for the > > soapbox.Respectfully, > > DrDonald J. Snow, Jr., D.A.O.M., M.PH., M.S.T.O.M, L.Ac., Dipl. > > Ac.CPT, MS, USA (Ret.)-mike > > BowserSent:Sunday, May 14, 2006 7:32 > > AMTo:Chinese Medicine@: RE: Re: TCM -BillDon,First > > question. Can you move joints? Then !why do you assume that > > manipulation of a joint is outside your scope ofpractice? If you are > > not using a HVLA thrust or falsely advertisingadjustments? You make > > an excellent point which is why our profession needsto get involved > > with future creation of a single payer, universal coveragesystem. > > IMO we have been witness to a fleecing of Americans and > > smallbusinesses by the insr/HMO industry and the current medical > > system. Peopleare being forced to wait for critical events to seek > > out care (recent studyshowed more ER visits) either by bank account > > or HMO. There is no way thatsuddenly our population will all decide > > to choose CM, there are too manylogistical problems with that as well > > as payment issues. However, we shouldbe included with making > > decisions on the future system though, and includedas a primary > > physician (nothing less). It saddens me to hear many > > confusedpractitioners who have an emotional response simply out of > > fear orlimitation for a certain bu!siness model. The patient's needs > > are not considered in all of this dialogue nor is the future of our > > profession. Those who can and will changeare those who will > > survive. Take care and sorry about the rant. BTW, CAhas universal > > payer legislation that has made it out of committee and stillneeds to > > be voted on by the legislature. Go CA! > > MBTo:Chinese Medicine@: don83407@: Sat,13 May 2006 > > 14:58:29 -0700Re: BillI teach at PCOM and weteach only > > what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the > > Doctoralprogram, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be > > very unpopularbecause this is not in our scope of practice. It seems > > only reasonable toteach scope of practice because it would be illegal > > to practice the fullscope in the US. I was a physician assistant in > > the military and wastrained to prescribe, perform some minor > > surgerys, etc. Believe me,general, non-specialty western medicine is > > extremely easy to practice thoughallopaths like to make the public > > think it! is difficult. But look at military medicine where you > > have Corpsmen andmedics with three months of training safely > > prescribing drugs (limitedprescription priviledges), ordering > > diagnostic tests, etc. I personallythink that we should have > > training and credentialling in those areas ofallopathic medicine we > > are interested in practicing, except for drugprescriptions, because > > frankly, our pharmacopaea is sufficient.Just somethoughts. But the > > West currently owns the medical system and will not giveup > > priveledges easily Soon the Western system will be bankrupted and > > theywill have to change We must stand ready.Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, > > L.AC.-Alon MarcusDOMSent: Saturday, > > May 13, 2006 2:35 PMTo:Chinese Medicine@: Re: TCM - > > BillTheproblem is about what can we in CA get in reality As far as i > > am concern itsok for us to do su!rgery but this will never pass. > > Chiros are very powerful in CA and they will never allow an osseous > > manipulation language to pass. However, inreality all joint > > manipulation, except setting of fractures, are soft > > tissuemanipulations and that includes HVLA. This bill is about > > increasing thechances of getting paid for what we do, that is all. > > Its not about ouridentity or about defining our self. If you ask me > > we need to officiallyteach in the schools the entire scope of modern > > TCM as practiced in China asa first step to change the scope of this > > profession. But good luck with thecurrent schools. Alon Marcus > > DOMOakland, CA94609 > > ----- Original Message----- > > Donald Snow > > To:Chinese Medicine Saturday, > > May 13, 200610:09 AM Re: Bill If it's OK for the > > M.D.'s and Chiros touse acupuncture, then why can't we use joint > > mobilization? Do they own thatdescription and if so, why don't we > > own acupuncture? I apparently n!eed some educating here. Thanks > > for your patience.Don Snow, DAOM - > > Donald Snow Sent:Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:38 AM > > To:Chinese Medicine Re: TCM - > > Bill Justsay Tuina, that should cover it.Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, > > MS, L.Ac. - AlonMarcus DOM Sent: > > Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM > > To:Chinese Medicine Re: TCM - > > Bill Ihave just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good > > bill for CALAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because > > it does notinclude joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to > > the strength ofchiros in CA we will never be able to include it in > > our scop, in writingHowever, the words manual therapy and myofascial > > release in our scope onlysupports our scop!e. Manual therapy is a > > highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by > > Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a goodbill Alon > > Marcus DOM Oakland, CA 94609 510-452- > > 5034wwwintegrativehealthmedicine.com ----- Original Message --- -- > > > > To:Chinese Medicine@com Sent: Friday, > > May 12,2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying > > acupuncture pointsI would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction > > by Shudo Denmai isprobably the best writing about acupuncture I've > > ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1@ > > > Thu May 11, 20067:48am(PDT) > Re: Dispersing > > and tonifying acupuncturepoints > > I have found the intro text > > to Japanese Meridian Therapywritten by Shudo Denmai to be very useful > > as well. He goes into very usefulways to separate a channel problem > > from an organ problem. This book has awealth of theory but is really > > geared toward cl!inical practice. It would be helpful to know more > > about your trainingstyle and the type of pracitioner you plan to > > become (TCM vs Japanese, etc).Hope it helps. > > Mike W. > > Bowser, LAc > Subscribe tothe new FREE online journal for > > TCM at > > Timeshttp://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new > > TCM Forum Toolbar, > > click,http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 To > > change youremail delivery settings, > > click, > > and adjustaccordingly. Messages are the property of the > > author. Any duplicationoutside the group requires prior permission > > from the author. Pleaseconsider the environment and only print > > this message if absolutelynecessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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