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Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even) needling)

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Maybe I read you wrong Ray.....the patients did know that the experiment was

taking place, just like a regular medical study.

 

Kind regards

 

Dermot

-

" Ray Ford " <ray

<Chinese Medicine >

Thursday, May 18, 2006 11:50 AM

RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Dermot,

The qoute below,taken from your post is very interesting BUT unless each

patient knee the 'experiment " was taking place.

I have not seen the documentary but reading between the lines of your post

it seems the patients did not know?

If this WAS the case it is very very bad medicine IMO.These people were

little more than lab rats.Rather than be proud of his claim,the opposite

should be true.This is of course IF THEY DID KNOW,which seems unlikely.This

is blatant and unethical,too horible to contemplate where it might lead,how

on earth did he pull it off.

What next?David Coperfield's home surgery kit ?

Ray Ford

 

-a knee surgeon in the US who has made an amazing discovery. In an research

trial, he gave a group of his patients a fake operation. He opened them up -

 

but instead of carrying out the usual procedure - simply sowed them back up

again having done nothing at all. Incredibly, this group of patients did as

well as those who had the real procedure. When asked about this Kathy made

the point that these people got better even though they hadn't received any

treatment at all. But the knee surgeon corrected her - " these people got

better, they got treatment it just wasn't the treatment that they thought

they got "

 

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

O'Connor

Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:51 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Our thoughts and our beliefs cause real and scientifically measurable

bio-chemical changes in our bodies and science proves this. The point is

that belief/placebo plays a major role (sometimes the major role) and has

been proven to work on everything from the common cold to cancer. I'm not

saying that placebo alone is more effective than all treatments, all

medications and all surgery. No, that would just be plain silly. But

belief plays a major role in all treatments even drug treatments when drug

has been proven to be effective. Thats why ALL drugs including those used

to treat bacterial infection and hepatitis have to be tested in trials

against a placebo. If belief could be completely discounted, just the way

you completely discounted it in your first e-mail about the monkey

acupuncturists, then drugs trialed for these conditions would not have to be

 

tested against a placebo. But all proper medical research trials have to be

 

scientific and not based on any emotional bias and therefore have to take

into consideration placebo (belief).

 

Drugs are only classified as effective when they are MORE effective than a

placebo. So for example, if the placebo cures 40% of people and the real

medication cures 50% then the medication can be classified as an effective

treatment. That means that such a drug's effectiveness is 80% attributable

to placebo (belief) and only 20% attributable to the real effect of the

drug. It might surprise you just how many drugs are classified as effective

 

by the FDA and similar bodies, even though the drugs are only marginally

more effective than placebos/belief (perhaps only a few percentage points).

 

You'd do well to take a fresh look at this and get a fuller understanding of

 

what the power of belief and intention could mean for your clients.....

 

If you ever get a chance to see this well put together BBC documentary you

should (see link below). In this documentary the scientist Kathy Sykes met

a knee surgeon in the US who has made an amazing discovery. In an research

trial, he gave a group of his patients a fake operation. He opened them up -

 

but instead of carrying out the usual procedure - simply sowed them back up

again having done nothing at all. Incredibly, this group of patients did as

well as those who had the real procedure. When asked about this Kathy made

the point that these people got better even though they hadn't received any

treatment at all. But the knee surgeon corrected her - " these people got

better, they got treatment it just wasn't the treatment that they thought

they got "

 

http://www.open2.net/home/view?entityID=27419

<http://www.open2.net/home/view?entityID=27419 & jsp=prog_pages%2Ftemplate%2Fv

iewer & sessionID=-1147903488051 & entityName=object>

& jsp=prog_pages%2Ftemplate%2Fviewer & sessionID=-1147903488051 & entityName=obje

ct

 

Kind regards

 

Dermot

 

 

-

" daomsnow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:31 PM

Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

> You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all medicines.

> However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo is not

> the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the belief.

> The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, try " just

> believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the medicine thank

> you.

>

>

> Dr. Snow

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Dermot

> O'Connor " <dermot wrote:

>>

>> Don,

>>

>> I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a

> patient any

>> confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey

> have

>> intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention and

> the

>> belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine, Oriental

> Medicine

>> and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept -

> and " conventional "

>> doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a

> treatment

>> will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or failure

> of any

>> treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking

> almost 40%

>> of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the

> part of the

>> patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

>> approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed

> to this

>> mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo

> effect,

>> which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined

> illness.

>> The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and proven

> cure for

>> a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is still

> a

>> complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate

> with

>> harnessing this powerful effect.

>>

>> Kind regards

>>

>> Dermot

>>

>>

>>

>> -

>> " daomsnow " <don83407

>> <Chinese Medicine >

>> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

>> Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even)

>> needling)

>>

>>

>> I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

>> important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that view.

>> If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

>> work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

>>

>> Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep and

>> I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe that

>> it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

>> course you know the answer to that one.

>>

>> Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

>> acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the

> needle

>> into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

>> trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

>> medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

>> practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

>> practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

>> practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

>>

>>

>> Respectfully,

>>

>> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

>>

>>

>> In Chinese Medicine , " "

>> <@> wrote:

>> >

>> > Hi David

>> >

>> > > If the order of needling is not important ...

>> >

>> > I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

>> needling order

>> > really IS important.

>> >

>> > > ... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

>> >

>> > Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

>> > important.

>> >

>> > We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

>> > (numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

>> wrongly) that

>> > something is necessary, one does it that way.

>> >

>> > > Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

>> Ghost

>> > > points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity

> etc?

>> >

>> > See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

>> > possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the

> way

>> one can /

>> > must use to do that.

>> >

>> > > You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling

> techniques,

>> which

>> > > places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

>> > > specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to

> the

>> > > acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

>> >

>> > Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim

> that

>> laser

>> > or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

>> >

>> > IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly

> flexible.

>> IMO, AP

>> > given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

>> Shamanism) works

>> > on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

>> that I have

>> > observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

>> same way.

>> > It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

>> concepts in

>> > common, but may disagree on other concepts.

>> >

>> > I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

>> > (a) the POINTS used,

>> > (b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

>> > © the THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating on

>> > those points that is most important?

>> >

>> > Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

>> problems, my

>> > gut says © is the most important factor. But I am open to being

>> shown to

>> > be wrong in that.

>> >

>> > Best regards,

>> >

>> >

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese

> Medicine Times

>> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>>

>> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

>> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>>

>>

>> and

> adjust

>> accordingly.

>>

>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

> the group

>> requires prior permission from the author.

>>

>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if

> absolutely

>> necessary.

>>

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Guest guest

Hi Dermot,

I understand what you are saying.In a single or double blind study the

patients are aware that they MAY receive a placebo, this is common,it is

ethics.I know they are not told WHEN they are receiving it,that would be

pointless,I agree.I really was pointing out that the same applies to our

medicine,that is to say,IF we are aware of a placebo effect and want to

enhance it INTENTIONALLY then I think our clients have a right to know and I

do discuss this with new patients,I believe that we could be guilty of

manipulation if we do not.In your post you said you would like to increase

the effect,I think your clients need to know that.

As for the surgery on the knees,I had not seen it,I just found it hard to

believe ANYONE would volunteer for the possibility of Sham Surgery,maybe its

just me.

Ray Ford

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

O'Connor

Thursday, May 18, 2006 10:18 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Ray,

 

Sorry but what you are saying isn't quite true. In a single-blind or double

 

blind placebo study you simply can't tell the patients when they are

receiving the placebo. If you do then it just isn't a blinded study

anymore.

 

It was a thoroughly scientific study, people knew that they were potentially

 

going to receive " sham " surgery. Regardless of that, the results were the

same between the two groups. If you tell someone they are receiving a

placebo then the belief in the treatment disappears and along with it the

potential healing power.

 

Regards

 

Dermot

 

 

-

" Ray Ford " <ray

<Chinese Medicine >

Thursday, May 18, 2006 11:50 AM

RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Dermot,

The qoute below,taken from your post is very interesting BUT unless each

patient knee the 'experiment " was taking place.

I have not seen the documentary but reading between the lines of your post

it seems the patients did not know?

If this WAS the case it is very very bad medicine IMO.These people were

little more than lab rats.Rather than be proud of his claim,the opposite

should be true.This is of course IF THEY DID KNOW,which seems unlikely.This

is blatant and unethical,too horible to contemplate where it might lead,how

on earth did he pull it off.

What next?David Coperfield's home surgery kit ?

Ray Ford

 

-a knee surgeon in the US who has made an amazing discovery. In an research

trial, he gave a group of his patients a fake operation. He opened them up -

 

but instead of carrying out the usual procedure - simply sowed them back up

again having done nothing at all. Incredibly, this group of patients did as

well as those who had the real procedure. When asked about this Kathy made

the point that these people got better even though they hadn't received any

treatment at all. But the knee surgeon corrected her - " these people got

better, they got treatment it just wasn't the treatment that they thought

they got "

 

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

O'Connor

Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:51 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Our thoughts and our beliefs cause real and scientifically measurable

bio-chemical changes in our bodies and science proves this. The point is

that belief/placebo plays a major role (sometimes the major role) and has

been proven to work on everything from the common cold to cancer. I'm not

saying that placebo alone is more effective than all treatments, all

medications and all surgery. No, that would just be plain silly. But

belief plays a major role in all treatments even drug treatments when drug

has been proven to be effective. Thats why ALL drugs including those used

to treat bacterial infection and hepatitis have to be tested in trials

against a placebo. If belief could be completely discounted, just the way

you completely discounted it in your first e-mail about the monkey

acupuncturists, then drugs trialed for these conditions would not have to be

 

tested against a placebo. But all proper medical research trials have to be

 

scientific and not based on any emotional bias and therefore have to take

into consideration placebo (belief).

 

Drugs are only classified as effective when they are MORE effective than a

placebo. So for example, if the placebo cures 40% of people and the real

medication cures 50% then the medication can be classified as an effective

treatment. That means that such a drug's effectiveness is 80% attributable

to placebo (belief) and only 20% attributable to the real effect of the

drug. It might surprise you just how many drugs are classified as effective

 

by the FDA and similar bodies, even though the drugs are only marginally

more effective than placebos/belief (perhaps only a few percentage points).

 

You'd do well to take a fresh look at this and get a fuller understanding of

 

what the power of belief and intention could mean for your clients.....

 

If you ever get a chance to see this well put together BBC documentary you

should (see link below). In this documentary the scientist Kathy Sykes met

a knee surgeon in the US who has made an amazing discovery. In an research

trial, he gave a group of his patients a fake operation. He opened them up -

 

but instead of carrying out the usual procedure - simply sowed them back up

again having done nothing at all. Incredibly, this group of patients did as

well as those who had the real procedure. When asked about this Kathy made

the point that these people got better even though they hadn't received any

treatment at all. But the knee surgeon corrected her - " these people got

better, they got treatment it just wasn't the treatment that they thought

they got "

 

http://www.open2.net/home/view?entityID=27419

<http://www.open2.net/home/view?entityID=27419

<http://www.open2.net/home/view?entityID=27419 & jsp=prog_pages%2Ftemplate%2Fv

> & jsp=prog_pages%2Ftemplate%2Fv

iewer & sessionID=-1147903488051 & entityName=object>

& jsp=prog_pages%2Ftemplate%2Fviewer & sessionID=-1147903488051 & entityName=obje

ct

 

Kind regards

 

Dermot

 

 

-

" daomsnow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:31 PM

Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

> You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all medicines.

> However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo is not

> the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the belief.

> The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, try " just

> believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the medicine thank

> you.

>

>

> Dr. Snow

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Dermot

> O'Connor " <dermot wrote:

>>

>> Don,

>>

>> I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a

> patient any

>> confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey

> have

>> intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention and

> the

>> belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine, Oriental

> Medicine

>> and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept -

> and " conventional "

>> doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a

> treatment

>> will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or failure

> of any

>> treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking

> almost 40%

>> of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the

> part of the

>> patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

>> approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed

> to this

>> mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo

> effect,

>> which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined

> illness.

>> The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and proven

> cure for

>> a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is still

> a

>> complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate

> with

>> harnessing this powerful effect.

>>

>> Kind regards

>>

>> Dermot

>>

>>

>>

>> -

>> " daomsnow " <don83407

>> <Chinese Medicine >

>> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

>> Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even)

>> needling)

>>

>>

>> I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

>> important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that view.

>> If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

>> work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

>>

>> Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep and

>> I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe that

>> it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

>> course you know the answer to that one.

>>

>> Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

>> acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the

> needle

>> into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

>> trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

>> medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

>> practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

>> practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

>> practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

>>

>>

>> Respectfully,

>>

>> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

>>

>>

>> In Chinese Medicine , " "

>> <@> wrote:

>> >

>> > Hi David

>> >

>> > > If the order of needling is not important ...

>> >

>> > I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

>> needling order

>> > really IS important.

>> >

>> > > ... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

>> >

>> > Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

>> > important.

>> >

>> > We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

>> > (numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

>> wrongly) that

>> > something is necessary, one does it that way.

>> >

>> > > Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

>> Ghost

>> > > points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity

> etc?

>> >

>> > See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

>> > possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the

> way

>> one can /

>> > must use to do that.

>> >

>> > > You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling

> techniques,

>> which

>> > > places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

>> > > specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to

> the

>> > > acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

>> >

>> > Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim

> that

>> laser

>> > or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

>> >

>> > IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly

> flexible.

>> IMO, AP

>> > given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

>> Shamanism) works

>> > on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

>> that I have

>> > observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

>> same way.

>> > It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

>> concepts in

>> > common, but may disagree on other concepts.

>> >

>> > I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

>> > (a) the POINTS used,

>> > (b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

>> > © the THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating on

>> > those points that is most important?

>> >

>> > Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

>> problems, my

>> > gut says © is the most important factor. But I am open to being

>> shown to

>> > be wrong in that.

>> >

>> > Best regards,

>> >

>> >

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese

> Medicine Times

>> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>>

>> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

>> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>>

>>

>> and

> adjust

>> accordingly.

>>

>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

> the group

>> requires prior permission from the author.

>>

>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if

> absolutely

>> necessary.

>>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

OK let's do it this way. If I have a fish that has ick and I treat that fish

with the current ick medicine and he gets well. Did the fish have to believe in

the medicine to get well? Did I have to have the intent? Or could the monkey

have accidentely dropped the medicine in the water, and the fish got well.

Placebo anyone?

 

 

Dr. Don Snow, DAOM

-

Ray Ford

Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:55 AM

Chinese Medicine

RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

Dermot, this is very,very funny,well said,made my day.

 

" Indeed, just as you would need to show a better clinical outcome than a

monkey performing surgery. "

 

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

O'Connor

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:06 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Don,

 

I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a patient any

confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey have

intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention and the

belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine, Oriental Medicine

 

and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept - and " conventional "

doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a treatment

will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or failure of any

treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking almost 40%

of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the part of the

patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed to this

mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo effect,

which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined illness.

The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and proven cure for

a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is still a

complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate with

harnessing this powerful effect.

 

Kind regards

 

Dermot

 

 

 

-

" daomsnow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that view.

If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

 

Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep and

I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe that

it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

course you know the answer to that one.

 

Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle

into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

 

 

Respectfully,

 

Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

 

 

In Chinese Medicine , " "

< wrote:

>

> Hi David

>

> > If the order of needling is not important ...

>

> I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

needling order

> really IS important.

>

> > ... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

>

> Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

> important.

>

> We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

> (numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

wrongly) that

> something is necessary, one does it that way.

>

> > Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

Ghost

> > points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity etc?

>

> See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

> possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the way

one can /

> must use to do that.

>

> > You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling techniques,

which

> > places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

> > specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to the

> > acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

>

> Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim that

laser

> or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

>

> IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly flexible.

IMO, AP

> given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

Shamanism) works

> on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

that I have

> observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

same way.

> It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

concepts in

> common, but may disagree on other concepts.

>

> I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

> (a) the POINTS used,

> (b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

> © the THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating on

> those points that is most important?

>

> Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

problems, my

> gut says © is the most important factor. But I am open to being

shown to

> be wrong in that.

>

> Best regards,

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

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Guest guest

You're preaching to the choir, I assumed everyone already knew this piece of

common knowledge. I guess I was wrong and many missed the point.

 

Thanks,

 

Dr. Don Snow, DAOM

 

-

Dermot O'Connor

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:54 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

Our thoughts and our beliefs cause real and scientifically measurable

bio-chemical changes in our bodies and science proves this. The point is

that belief/placebo plays a major role (sometimes the major role) and has

been proven to work on everything from the common cold to cancer. I'm not

saying that placebo alone is more effective than all treatments, all

medications and all surgery. No, that would just be plain silly. But

belief plays a major role in all treatments even drug treatments when drug

has been proven to be effective. Thats why ALL drugs including those used

to treat bacterial infection and hepatitis have to be tested in trials

against a placebo. If belief could be completely discounted, just the way

you completely discounted it in your first e-mail about the monkey

acupuncturists, then drugs trialed for these conditions would not have to be

tested against a placebo. But all proper medical research trials have to be

scientific and not based on any emotional bias and therefore have to take

into consideration placebo (belief).

 

Drugs are only classified as effective when they are MORE effective than a

placebo. So for example, if the placebo cures 40% of people and the real

medication cures 50% then the medication can be classified as an effective

treatment. That means that such a drug's effectiveness is 80% attributable

to placebo (belief) and only 20% attributable to the real effect of the

drug. It might surprise you just how many drugs are classified as effective

by the FDA and similar bodies, even though the drugs are only marginally

more effective than placebos/belief (perhaps only a few percentage points).

 

You'd do well to take a fresh look at this and get a fuller understanding of

what the power of belief and intention could mean for your clients.....

 

If you ever get a chance to see this well put together BBC documentary you

should (see link below). In this documentary the scientist Kathy Sykes met

a knee surgeon in the US who has made an amazing discovery. In an research

trial, he gave a group of his patients a fake operation. He opened them up -

but instead of carrying out the usual procedure - simply sowed them back up

again having done nothing at all. Incredibly, this group of patients did as

well as those who had the real procedure. When asked about this Kathy made

the point that these people got better even though they hadn't received any

treatment at all. But the knee surgeon corrected her - " these people got

better, they got treatment it just wasn't the treatment that they thought

they got "

 

http://www.open2.net/home/view?entityID=27419 & jsp=prog_pages%2Ftemplate%2Fviewer\

& sessionID=-1147903488051 & entityName=object

 

Kind regards

 

Dermot

 

 

-

" daomsnow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:31 PM

Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

> You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all medicines.

> However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo is not

> the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the belief.

> The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, try " just

> believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the medicine thank

> you.

>

>

> Dr. Snow

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Dermot

> O'Connor " <dermot wrote:

>>

>> Don,

>>

>> I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a

> patient any

>> confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey

> have

>> intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention and

> the

>> belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine, Oriental

> Medicine

>> and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept -

> and " conventional "

>> doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a

> treatment

>> will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or failure

> of any

>> treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking

> almost 40%

>> of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the

> part of the

>> patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

>> approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed

> to this

>> mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo

> effect,

>> which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined

> illness.

>> The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and proven

> cure for

>> a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is still

> a

>> complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate

> with

>> harnessing this powerful effect.

>>

>> Kind regards

>>

>> Dermot

>>

>>

>>

>> -

>> " daomsnow " <don83407

>> <Chinese Medicine >

>> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

>> Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even)

>> needling)

>>

>>

>> I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

>> important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that view.

>> If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

>> work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

>>

>> Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep and

>> I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe that

>> it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

>> course you know the answer to that one.

>>

>> Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

>> acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the

> needle

>> into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

>> trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

>> medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

>> practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

>> practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

>> practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

>>

>>

>> Respectfully,

>>

>> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

>>

>>

>> In Chinese Medicine , " "

>> <@> wrote:

>> >

>> > Hi David

>> >

>> > > If the order of needling is not important ...

>> >

>> > I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

>> needling order

>> > really IS important.

>> >

>> > > ... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

>> >

>> > Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

>> > important.

>> >

>> > We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

>> > (numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

>> wrongly) that

>> > something is necessary, one does it that way.

>> >

>> > > Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

>> Ghost

>> > > points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity

> etc?

>> >

>> > See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

>> > possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the

> way

>> one can /

>> > must use to do that.

>> >

>> > > You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling

> techniques,

>> which

>> > > places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

>> > > specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to

> the

>> > > acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

>> >

>> > Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim

> that

>> laser

>> > or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

>> >

>> > IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly

> flexible.

>> IMO, AP

>> > given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

>> Shamanism) works

>> > on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

>> that I have

>> > observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

>> same way.

>> > It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

>> concepts in

>> > common, but may disagree on other concepts.

>> >

>> > I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

>> > (a) the POINTS used,

>> > (b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

>> > © the THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating on

>> > those points that is most important?

>> >

>> > Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

>> problems, my

>> > gut says © is the most important factor. But I am open to being

>> shown to

>> > be wrong in that.

>> >

>> > Best regards,

>> >

>> >

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese

> Medicine Times

>> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>>

>> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

>> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>>

>>

>> and

> adjust

>> accordingly.

>>

>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

> the group

>> requires prior permission from the author.

>>

>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if

> absolutely

>> necessary.

>>

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Share on other sites

Guest guest

Dr Snow,

People are much more complex than fish or monkeys.I think that is the point.

Ray Ford

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Donald

Snow

Friday, May 19, 2006 12:08 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

OK let's do it this way. If I have a fish that has ick and I treat that

fish with the current ick medicine and he gets well. Did the fish have to

believe in the medicine to get well? Did I have to have the intent? Or

could the monkey have accidentely dropped the medicine in the water, and the

fish got well. Placebo anyone?

 

 

Dr. Don Snow, DAOM

-

Ray Ford

Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:55 AM

Chinese Medicine

RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

Dermot, this is very,very funny,well said,made my day.

 

" Indeed, just as you would need to show a better clinical outcome than a

monkey performing surgery. "

 

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

O'Connor

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:06 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Don,

 

I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a patient any

confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey have

intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention and the

belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine, Oriental Medicine

 

and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept - and " conventional "

doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a treatment

will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or failure of any

treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking almost 40%

of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the part of the

 

patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed to this

mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo effect,

which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined illness.

The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and proven cure for

 

a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is still a

complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate with

harnessing this powerful effect.

 

Kind regards

 

Dermot

 

 

 

-

" daomsnow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that view.

If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

 

Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep and

I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe that

it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

course you know the answer to that one.

 

Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle

into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

 

 

Respectfully,

 

Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

 

 

In Chinese Medicine , " "

< wrote:

>

> Hi David

>

> > If the order of needling is not important ...

>

> I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

needling order

> really IS important.

>

> > ... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

>

> Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

> important.

>

> We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

> (numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

wrongly) that

> something is necessary, one does it that way.

>

> > Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

Ghost

> > points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity etc?

>

> See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

> possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the way

one can /

> must use to do that.

>

> > You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling techniques,

which

> > places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

> > specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to the

> > acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

>

> Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim that

laser

> or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

>

> IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly flexible.

IMO, AP

> given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

Shamanism) works

> on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

that I have

> observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

same way.

> It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

concepts in

> common, but may disagree on other concepts.

>

> I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

> (a) the POINTS used,

> (b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

> © the THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating on

> those points that is most important?

>

> Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

problems, my

> gut says © is the most important factor. But I am open to being

shown to

> be wrong in that.

>

> Best regards,

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

 

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Share on other sites

Guest guest

Ray, I'm afraid you'll have to see to documentary t believe it then....but

well worth the effort.

 

Kind regards

 

Dermot

 

 

-

" Ray Ford " <ray

<Chinese Medicine >

Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:40 PM

RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Hi Dermot,

I understand what you are saying.In a single or double blind study the

patients are aware that they MAY receive a placebo, this is common,it is

ethics.I know they are not told WHEN they are receiving it,that would be

pointless,I agree.I really was pointing out that the same applies to our

medicine,that is to say,IF we are aware of a placebo effect and want to

enhance it INTENTIONALLY then I think our clients have a right to know and I

do discuss this with new patients,I believe that we could be guilty of

manipulation if we do not.In your post you said you would like to increase

the effect,I think your clients need to know that.

As for the surgery on the knees,I had not seen it,I just found it hard to

believe ANYONE would volunteer for the possibility of Sham Surgery,maybe its

just me.

Ray Ford

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

O'Connor

Thursday, May 18, 2006 10:18 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Ray,

 

Sorry but what you are saying isn't quite true. In a single-blind or double

 

blind placebo study you simply can't tell the patients when they are

receiving the placebo. If you do then it just isn't a blinded study

anymore.

 

It was a thoroughly scientific study, people knew that they were potentially

 

going to receive " sham " surgery. Regardless of that, the results were the

same between the two groups. If you tell someone they are receiving a

placebo then the belief in the treatment disappears and along with it the

potential healing power.

 

Regards

 

Dermot

 

 

-

" Ray Ford " <ray

<Chinese Medicine >

Thursday, May 18, 2006 11:50 AM

RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Dermot,

The qoute below,taken from your post is very interesting BUT unless each

patient knee the 'experiment " was taking place.

I have not seen the documentary but reading between the lines of your post

it seems the patients did not know?

If this WAS the case it is very very bad medicine IMO.These people were

little more than lab rats.Rather than be proud of his claim,the opposite

should be true.This is of course IF THEY DID KNOW,which seems unlikely.This

is blatant and unethical,too horible to contemplate where it might lead,how

on earth did he pull it off.

What next?David Coperfield's home surgery kit ?

Ray Ford

 

-a knee surgeon in the US who has made an amazing discovery. In an research

trial, he gave a group of his patients a fake operation. He opened them up -

 

but instead of carrying out the usual procedure - simply sowed them back up

again having done nothing at all. Incredibly, this group of patients did as

well as those who had the real procedure. When asked about this Kathy made

the point that these people got better even though they hadn't received any

treatment at all. But the knee surgeon corrected her - " these people got

better, they got treatment it just wasn't the treatment that they thought

they got "

 

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

O'Connor

Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:51 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Our thoughts and our beliefs cause real and scientifically measurable

bio-chemical changes in our bodies and science proves this. The point is

that belief/placebo plays a major role (sometimes the major role) and has

been proven to work on everything from the common cold to cancer. I'm not

saying that placebo alone is more effective than all treatments, all

medications and all surgery. No, that would just be plain silly. But

belief plays a major role in all treatments even drug treatments when drug

has been proven to be effective. Thats why ALL drugs including those used

to treat bacterial infection and hepatitis have to be tested in trials

against a placebo. If belief could be completely discounted, just the way

you completely discounted it in your first e-mail about the monkey

acupuncturists, then drugs trialed for these conditions would not have to be

 

tested against a placebo. But all proper medical research trials have to be

 

scientific and not based on any emotional bias and therefore have to take

into consideration placebo (belief).

 

Drugs are only classified as effective when they are MORE effective than a

placebo. So for example, if the placebo cures 40% of people and the real

medication cures 50% then the medication can be classified as an effective

treatment. That means that such a drug's effectiveness is 80% attributable

to placebo (belief) and only 20% attributable to the real effect of the

drug. It might surprise you just how many drugs are classified as effective

 

by the FDA and similar bodies, even though the drugs are only marginally

more effective than placebos/belief (perhaps only a few percentage points).

 

You'd do well to take a fresh look at this and get a fuller understanding of

 

what the power of belief and intention could mean for your clients.....

 

If you ever get a chance to see this well put together BBC documentary you

should (see link below). In this documentary the scientist Kathy Sykes met

a knee surgeon in the US who has made an amazing discovery. In an research

trial, he gave a group of his patients a fake operation. He opened them up -

 

but instead of carrying out the usual procedure - simply sowed them back up

again having done nothing at all. Incredibly, this group of patients did as

well as those who had the real procedure. When asked about this Kathy made

the point that these people got better even though they hadn't received any

treatment at all. But the knee surgeon corrected her - " these people got

better, they got treatment it just wasn't the treatment that they thought

they got "

 

http://www.open2.net/home/view?entityID=27419

<http://www.open2.net/home/view?entityID=27419

<http://www.open2.net/home/view?entityID=27419 & jsp=prog_pages%2Ftemplate%2Fv

> & jsp=prog_pages%2Ftemplate%2Fv

iewer & sessionID=-1147903488051 & entityName=object>

& jsp=prog_pages%2Ftemplate%2Fviewer & sessionID=-1147903488051 & entityName=obje

ct

 

Kind regards

 

Dermot

 

 

-

" daomsnow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:31 PM

Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

> You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all medicines.

> However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo is not

> the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the belief.

> The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, try " just

> believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the medicine thank

> you.

>

>

> Dr. Snow

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Dermot

> O'Connor " <dermot wrote:

>>

>> Don,

>>

>> I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a

> patient any

>> confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey

> have

>> intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention and

> the

>> belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine, Oriental

> Medicine

>> and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept -

> and " conventional "

>> doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a

> treatment

>> will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or failure

> of any

>> treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking

> almost 40%

>> of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the

> part of the

>> patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

>> approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed

> to this

>> mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo

> effect,

>> which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined

> illness.

>> The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and proven

> cure for

>> a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is still

> a

>> complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate

> with

>> harnessing this powerful effect.

>>

>> Kind regards

>>

>> Dermot

>>

>>

>>

>> -

>> " daomsnow " <don83407

>> <Chinese Medicine >

>> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

>> Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even)

>> needling)

>>

>>

>> I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

>> important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that view.

>> If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

>> work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

>>

>> Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep and

>> I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe that

>> it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

>> course you know the answer to that one.

>>

>> Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

>> acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the

> needle

>> into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

>> trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

>> medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

>> practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

>> practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

>> practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

>>

>>

>> Respectfully,

>>

>> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

>>

>>

>> In Chinese Medicine , " "

>> <@> wrote:

>> >

>> > Hi David

>> >

>> > > If the order of needling is not important ...

>> >

>> > I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

>> needling order

>> > really IS important.

>> >

>> > > ... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

>> >

>> > Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

>> > important.

>> >

>> > We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

>> > (numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

>> wrongly) that

>> > something is necessary, one does it that way.

>> >

>> > > Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

>> Ghost

>> > > points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity

> etc?

>> >

>> > See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

>> > possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the

> way

>> one can /

>> > must use to do that.

>> >

>> > > You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling

> techniques,

>> which

>> > > places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

>> > > specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to

> the

>> > > acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

>> >

>> > Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim

> that

>> laser

>> > or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

>> >

>> > IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly

> flexible.

>> IMO, AP

>> > given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

>> Shamanism) works

>> > on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

>> that I have

>> > observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

>> same way.

>> > It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

>> concepts in

>> > common, but may disagree on other concepts.

>> >

>> > I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

>> > (a) the POINTS used,

>> > (b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

>> > © the THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating on

>> > those points that is most important?

>> >

>> > Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

>> problems, my

>> > gut says © is the most important factor. But I am open to being

>> shown to

>> > be wrong in that.

>> >

>> > Best regards,

>> >

>> >

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese

> Medicine Times

>> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>>

>> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

>> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>>

>>

>> and

> adjust

>> accordingly.

>>

>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

> the group

>> requires prior permission from the author.

>>

>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if

> absolutely

>> necessary.

>>

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Guest guest

In actual fact animals to exhibit a placebo response and in medical trials

on animals they too usually include a placebo control group. Indeed this

fact suggests that perhaps the intention and belief of the person providing

the treatment is important. Thanks for for that Don.

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Thursday, May 18, 2006 3:08 PM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

> OK let's do it this way. If I have a fish that has ick and I treat that

> fish with the current ick medicine and he gets well. Did the fish have to

> believe in the medicine to get well? Did I have to have the intent? Or

> could the monkey have accidentely dropped the medicine in the water, and

> the fish got well. Placebo anyone?

>

>

> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM

> -

> Ray Ford

> Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:55 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even) needling)

>

> Dermot, this is very,very funny,well said,made my day.

>

> " Indeed, just as you would need to show a better clinical outcome than a

> monkey performing surgery. "

>

>

> _____

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

> O'Connor

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:06 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> Don,

>

> I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a patient any

> confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey have

> intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention and the

> belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine, Oriental

> Medicine

>

> and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept - and " conventional "

> doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a treatment

> will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or failure of any

> treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking almost 40%

> of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the part of

> the

> patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

> approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed to this

> mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo effect,

> which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined illness.

> The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and proven cure

> for

> a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is still a

> complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate with

> harnessing this powerful effect.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Dermot

>

>

>

> -

> " daomsnow " <don83407

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

> Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

> important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that view.

> If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

> work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

>

> Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep and

> I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe that

> it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

> course you know the answer to that one.

>

> Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

> acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle

> into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

> trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

> medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

> practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

> practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

> practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

>

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

>

>

> In Chinese Medicine , " "

> < wrote:

>>

>> Hi David

>>

>> > If the order of needling is not important ...

>>

>> I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

> needling order

>> really IS important.

>>

>> > ... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

>>

>> Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

>> important.

>>

>> We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

>> (numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

> wrongly) that

>> something is necessary, one does it that way.

>>

>> > Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

> Ghost

>> > points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity etc?

>>

>> See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

>> possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the way

> one can /

>> must use to do that.

>>

>> > You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling techniques,

> which

>> > places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

>> > specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to the

>> > acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

>>

>> Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim that

> laser

>> or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

>>

>> IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly flexible.

> IMO, AP

>> given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

> Shamanism) works

>> on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

> that I have

>> observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

> same way.

>> It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

> concepts in

>> common, but may disagree on other concepts.

>>

>> I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

>> (a) the POINTS used,

>> (b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

>> © the THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating on

>> those points that is most important?

>>

>> Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

> problems, my

>> gut says © is the most important factor. But I am open to being

> shown to

>> be wrong in that.

>>

>> Best regards,

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

>

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

> necessary.

>

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Guest guest

I remember this study Dermot. I just wanted to chime in on this thread.

 

I totally believe in intention in healing whether it is Western Medicine

or Eastern or the local energy healer. I also believe in the patient's

spirit and will to be in this human body and have it heal. Sometimes

it's just time to give it up, no matter how strong your will, and that

may be when you are willing to let go.

 

Way back in my business studies and teaching, there was famous study

called the Hawthorne studies. Factory workers were being studied in a

plant " the Hawthorne

plant. " , I believe in NY. They actually did things to make the factory

workers perform worse, such as lower lighting so they couldn't see as

well. The results were astonishing that this group of people actually

became more productive. It was concluded that just the fact that they

were being observed - they were also interviewed as part of the study.

The fact that someone was actually " paying attention " to them, made them

perform better, not worse.

 

I think this goes on with placebo too. I know my husband gets better

the minute an MD writes the perscription, before he even fills it. I

think any kind of treatment, sham, placebo if delivered in a healing way

is going to promote healing.

 

I like hitting real acupuncture points, prescribing the best herbs, and

delivering a healing intention. I'm just saying a lot of factors go

into it. Even grandma cuddling you when your sick can make you feel better.

 

Anne

 

Dermot O'Connor wrote:

 

>Ray,

>

>Sorry but what you are saying isn't quite true. In a single-blind or double

>blind placebo study you simply can't tell the patients when they are

>receiving the placebo. If you do then it just isn't a blinded study

>anymore.

>

>It was a thoroughly scientific study, people knew that they were potentially

>going to receive " sham " surgery. Regardless of that, the results were the

>same between the two groups. If you tell someone they are receiving a

>placebo then the belief in the treatment disappears and along with it the

>potential healing power.

>

>Regards

>

>Dermot

>

>

>-

> " Ray Ford " <ray

><Chinese Medicine >

>Thursday, May 18, 2006 11:50 AM

>RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

>needling)

>

>

>Dermot,

>The qoute below,taken from your post is very interesting BUT unless each

>patient knee the 'experiment " was taking place.

>I have not seen the documentary but reading between the lines of your post

>it seems the patients did not know?

>If this WAS the case it is very very bad medicine IMO.These people were

>little more than lab rats.Rather than be proud of his claim,the opposite

>should be true.This is of course IF THEY DID KNOW,which seems unlikely.This

>is blatant and unethical,too horible to contemplate where it might lead,how

>on earth did he pull it off.

>What next?David Coperfield's home surgery kit ?

>Ray Ford

>

>-a knee surgeon in the US who has made an amazing discovery. In an research

>trial, he gave a group of his patients a fake operation. He opened them up -

>

>but instead of carrying out the usual procedure - simply sowed them back up

>again having done nothing at all. Incredibly, this group of patients did as

>well as those who had the real procedure. When asked about this Kathy made

>the point that these people got better even though they hadn't received any

>treatment at all. But the knee surgeon corrected her - " these people got

>better, they got treatment it just wasn't the treatment that they thought

>they got "

>

>

> _____

>

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

>O'Connor

>Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:51 AM

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

>needling)

>

>

>Our thoughts and our beliefs cause real and scientifically measurable

>bio-chemical changes in our bodies and science proves this. The point is

>that belief/placebo plays a major role (sometimes the major role) and has

>been proven to work on everything from the common cold to cancer. I'm not

>saying that placebo alone is more effective than all treatments, all

>medications and all surgery. No, that would just be plain silly. But

>belief plays a major role in all treatments even drug treatments when drug

>has been proven to be effective. Thats why ALL drugs including those used

>to treat bacterial infection and hepatitis have to be tested in trials

>against a placebo. If belief could be completely discounted, just the way

>you completely discounted it in your first e-mail about the monkey

>acupuncturists, then drugs trialed for these conditions would not have to be

>

>tested against a placebo. But all proper medical research trials have to be

>

>scientific and not based on any emotional bias and therefore have to take

>into consideration placebo (belief).

>

>Drugs are only classified as effective when they are MORE effective than a

>placebo. So for example, if the placebo cures 40% of people and the real

>medication cures 50% then the medication can be classified as an effective

>treatment. That means that such a drug's effectiveness is 80% attributable

>to placebo (belief) and only 20% attributable to the real effect of the

>drug. It might surprise you just how many drugs are classified as effective

>

>by the FDA and similar bodies, even though the drugs are only marginally

>more effective than placebos/belief (perhaps only a few percentage points).

>

>You'd do well to take a fresh look at this and get a fuller understanding of

>

>what the power of belief and intention could mean for your clients.....

>

>If you ever get a chance to see this well put together BBC documentary you

>should (see link below). In this documentary the scientist Kathy Sykes met

>a knee surgeon in the US who has made an amazing discovery. In an research

>trial, he gave a group of his patients a fake operation. He opened them up -

>

>but instead of carrying out the usual procedure - simply sowed them back up

>again having done nothing at all. Incredibly, this group of patients did as

>well as those who had the real procedure. When asked about this Kathy made

>the point that these people got better even though they hadn't received any

>treatment at all. But the knee surgeon corrected her - " these people got

>better, they got treatment it just wasn't the treatment that they thought

>they got "

>

>http://www.open2.net/home/view?entityID=27419

><http://www.open2.net/home/view?entityID=27419 & jsp=prog_pages%2Ftemplate%2Fv

>iewer & sessionID=-1147903488051 & entityName=object>

> & jsp=prog_pages%2Ftemplate%2Fviewer & sessionID=-1147903488051 & entityName=obje

>ct

>

>Kind regards

>

>Dermot

>

>

>-

> " daomsnow " <don83407

><Chinese Medicine >

>Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:31 PM

>Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

>needling)

>

>

>

>

>>You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all medicines.

>>However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo is not

>>the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the belief.

>>The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, try " just

>>believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the medicine thank

>>you.

>>

>>

>>Dr. Snow

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>Chinese Medicine , " Dermot

>>O'Connor " <dermot wrote:

>>

>>

>>>Don,

>>>

>>>I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a

>>>

>>>

>>patient any

>>

>>

>>>confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey

>>>

>>>

>>have

>>

>>

>>>intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention and

>>>

>>>

>>the

>>

>>

>>>belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine, Oriental

>>>

>>>

>>Medicine

>>

>>

>>>and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept -

>>>

>>>

>>and " conventional "

>>

>>

>>>doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a

>>>

>>>

>>treatment

>>

>>

>>>will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or failure

>>>

>>>

>>of any

>>

>>

>>>treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking

>>>

>>>

>>almost 40%

>>

>>

>>>of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the

>>>

>>>

>>part of the

>>

>>

>>>patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

>>>approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed

>>>

>>>

>>to this

>>

>>

>>>mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo

>>>

>>>

>>effect,

>>

>>

>>>which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined

>>>

>>>

>>illness.

>>

>>

>>>The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and proven

>>>

>>>

>>cure for

>>

>>

>>>a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is still

>>>

>>>

>>a

>>

>>

>>>complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate

>>>

>>>

>>with

>>

>>

>>>harnessing this powerful effect.

>>>

>>>Kind regards

>>>

>>>Dermot

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>-

>>> " daomsnow " <don83407

>>><Chinese Medicine >

>>>Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

>>>Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

>>>

>>>

>>(Even)

>>

>>

>>>needling)

>>>

>>>

>>>I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

>>>important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that view.

>>>If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

>>>work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

>>>

>>>Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep and

>>>I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe that

>>>it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

>>>course you know the answer to that one.

>>>

>>>Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

>>>acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the

>>>

>>>

>>needle

>>

>>

>>>into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

>>>trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

>>>medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

>>>practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

>>>practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

>>>practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

>>>

>>>

>>>Respectfully,

>>>

>>> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

>>>

>>>

>>>In Chinese Medicine , " "

>>><@> wrote:

>>>

>>>

>>>>Hi David

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>If the order of needling is not important ...

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

>>>>

>>>>

>>>needling order

>>>

>>>

>>>>really IS important.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

>>>>important.

>>>>

>>>>We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

>>>>(numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

>>>>

>>>>

>>>wrongly) that

>>>

>>>

>>>>something is necessary, one does it that way.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>Ghost

>>>

>>>

>>>>>points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>etc?

>>

>>

>>>>See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

>>>>possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the

>>>>

>>>>

>>way

>>

>>

>>>one can /

>>>

>>>

>>>>must use to do that.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>techniques,

>>

>>

>>>which

>>>

>>>

>>>>>places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

>>>>>specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>the

>>

>>

>>>>>acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim

>>>>

>>>>

>>that

>>

>>

>>>laser

>>>

>>>

>>>>or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

>>>>

>>>>IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly

>>>>

>>>>

>>flexible.

>>

>>

>>>IMO, AP

>>>

>>>

>>>>given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

>>>>

>>>>

>>>Shamanism) works

>>>

>>>

>>>>on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

>>>>

>>>>

>>>that I have

>>>

>>>

>>>>observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

>>>>

>>>>

>>>same way.

>>>

>>>

>>>>It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

>>>>

>>>>

>>>concepts in

>>>

>>>

>>>>common, but may disagree on other concepts.

>>>>

>>>>I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

>>>>(a) the POINTS used,

>>>>(b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

>>>>© the THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating on

>>>>those points that is most important?

>>>>

>>>>Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

>>>>

>>>>

>>>problems, my

>>>

>>>

>>>>gut says © is the most important factor. But I am open to being

>>>>

>>>>

>>>shown to

>>>

>>>

>>>>be wrong in that.

>>>>

>>>>Best regards,

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese

>>>

>>>

>>Medicine Times

>>

>>

>>>http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>>>

>>>Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

>>>http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>>>

>>>

>>> and

>>>

>>>

>>adjust

>>

>>

>>>accordingly.

>>>

>>>Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

>>>

>>>

>>the group

>>

>>

>>>requires prior permission from the author.

>>>

>>>Please consider the environment and only print this message if

>>>

>>>

>>absolutely

>>

>>

>>>necessary.

>>>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Ray Ford wrote:

<snip>

> I just found it hard to believe ANYONE would volunteer for the

> possibility of Sham Surgery

 

Hi Dr. Ray!

 

Ordinarily there is some consideration. Like all the participants got

free follow-up meds or something.

 

They used to give blood donors a steak dinner back in the 50s, now it is

a donut. Except when they pay them to " donate " .

 

Regards,

 

Pete

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Guest guest

You still don't have the point. The medicine, if it is real medicine, should

still work beyond placebo. Nothing mystical about it. Otherwise, we do not

practice a medicine. I'm tired of this thread and, of course, we all can think

and believe as we wish. But remember this, there are some in the world that

still do not believe man has walked on the moon. Belief often has nothing to do

with truth.

 

Dr. Snow

 

-

Ray Ford

Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:33 AM

Chinese Medicine

RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

Dr Snow,

People are much more complex than fish or monkeys.I think that is the point.

Ray Ford

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Donald

Snow

Friday, May 19, 2006 12:08 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

OK let's do it this way. If I have a fish that has ick and I treat that

fish with the current ick medicine and he gets well. Did the fish have to

believe in the medicine to get well? Did I have to have the intent? Or

could the monkey have accidentely dropped the medicine in the water, and the

fish got well. Placebo anyone?

 

 

Dr. Don Snow, DAOM

-

Ray Ford

Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:55 AM

Chinese Medicine

RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

Dermot, this is very,very funny,well said,made my day.

 

" Indeed, just as you would need to show a better clinical outcome than a

monkey performing surgery. "

 

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

O'Connor

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:06 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Don,

 

I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a patient any

confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey have

intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention and the

belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine, Oriental Medicine

 

and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept - and " conventional "

doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a treatment

will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or failure of any

treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking almost 40%

of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the part of the

 

patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed to this

mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo effect,

which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined illness.

The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and proven cure for

 

a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is still a

complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate with

harnessing this powerful effect.

 

Kind regards

 

Dermot

 

 

 

-

" daomsnow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that view.

If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

 

Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep and

I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe that

it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

course you know the answer to that one.

 

Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle

into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

 

 

Respectfully,

 

Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

 

 

In Chinese Medicine , " "

< wrote:

>

> Hi David

>

> > If the order of needling is not important ...

>

> I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

needling order

> really IS important.

>

> > ... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

>

> Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

> important.

>

> We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

> (numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

wrongly) that

> something is necessary, one does it that way.

>

> > Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

Ghost

> > points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity etc?

>

> See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

> possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the way

one can /

> must use to do that.

>

> > You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling techniques,

which

> > places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

> > specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to the

> > acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

>

> Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim that

laser

> or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

>

> IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly flexible.

IMO, AP

> given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

Shamanism) works

> on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

that I have

> observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

same way.

> It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

concepts in

> common, but may disagree on other concepts.

>

> I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

> (a) the POINTS used,

> (b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

> © the THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating on

> those points that is most important?

>

> Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

problems, my

> gut says © is the most important factor. But I am open to being

shown to

> be wrong in that.

>

> Best regards,

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

 

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Guest guest

Yes, yes, yes. But for a medicine or a procedure to be " approved, " it must be

more efficacious than placebo. Is that not right? And THAT is my point with

acupuncture. It works beyond placebo and belief.

 

 

Dr. Snow

 

-

Dermot O'Connor

Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:21 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

In actual fact animals to exhibit a placebo response and in medical trials

on animals they too usually include a placebo control group. Indeed this

fact suggests that perhaps the intention and belief of the person providing

the treatment is important. Thanks for for that Don.

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Thursday, May 18, 2006 3:08 PM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

> OK let's do it this way. If I have a fish that has ick and I treat that

> fish with the current ick medicine and he gets well. Did the fish have to

> believe in the medicine to get well? Did I have to have the intent? Or

> could the monkey have accidentely dropped the medicine in the water, and

> the fish got well. Placebo anyone?

>

>

> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM

> -

> Ray Ford

> Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:55 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even) needling)

>

> Dermot, this is very,very funny,well said,made my day.

>

> " Indeed, just as you would need to show a better clinical outcome than a

> monkey performing surgery. "

>

>

> _____

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

> O'Connor

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:06 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> Don,

>

> I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a patient any

> confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey have

> intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention and the

> belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine, Oriental

> Medicine

>

> and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept - and " conventional "

> doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a treatment

> will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or failure of any

> treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking almost 40%

> of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the part of

> the

> patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

> approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed to this

> mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo effect,

> which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined illness.

> The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and proven cure

> for

> a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is still a

> complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate with

> harnessing this powerful effect.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Dermot

>

>

>

> -

> " daomsnow " <don83407

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

> Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

> important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that view.

> If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

> work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

>

> Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep and

> I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe that

> it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

> course you know the answer to that one.

>

> Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

> acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle

> into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

> trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

> medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

> practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

> practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

> practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

>

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

>

>

> In Chinese Medicine , " "

> < wrote:

>>

>> Hi David

>>

>> > If the order of needling is not important ...

>>

>> I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

> needling order

>> really IS important.

>>

>> > ... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

>>

>> Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

>> important.

>>

>> We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

>> (numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

> wrongly) that

>> something is necessary, one does it that way.

>>

>> > Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

> Ghost

>> > points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity etc?

>>

>> See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

>> possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the way

> one can /

>> must use to do that.

>>

>> > You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling techniques,

> which

>> > places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

>> > specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to the

>> > acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

>>

>> Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim that

> laser

>> or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

>>

>> IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly flexible.

> IMO, AP

>> given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

> Shamanism) works

>> on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

> that I have

>> observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

> same way.

>> It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

> concepts in

>> common, but may disagree on other concepts.

>>

>> I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

>> (a) the POINTS used,

>> (b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

>> © the THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating on

>> those points that is most important?

>>

>> Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

> problems, my

>> gut says © is the most important factor. But I am open to being

> shown to

>> be wrong in that.

>>

>> Best regards,

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

>

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

> necessary.

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

And that is my point too Don, I never said acupuncture was only a placebo

response. I simply made the point (as have your own students) that intent

and belief are very important COMPONENT of the healing process. You seem to

accept that now, but at the beginning of the thread you were very dismissive

of intent and belief..

 

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Friday, May 19, 2006 7:31 AM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Yes, yes, yes. But for a medicine or a procedure to be " approved, " it must

be more efficacious than placebo. Is that not right? And THAT is my point

with acupuncture. It works beyond placebo and belief.

 

 

Dr. Snow

 

-

Dermot O'Connor

Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:21 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

In actual fact animals to exhibit a placebo response and in medical trials

on animals they too usually include a placebo control group. Indeed this

fact suggests that perhaps the intention and belief of the person providing

the treatment is important. Thanks for for that Don.

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Thursday, May 18, 2006 3:08 PM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

> OK let's do it this way. If I have a fish that has ick and I treat that

> fish with the current ick medicine and he gets well. Did the fish have to

> believe in the medicine to get well? Did I have to have the intent? Or

> could the monkey have accidentely dropped the medicine in the water, and

> the fish got well. Placebo anyone?

>

>

> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM

> -

> Ray Ford

> Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:55 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even) needling)

>

> Dermot, this is very,very funny,well said,made my day.

>

> " Indeed, just as you would need to show a better clinical outcome than a

> monkey performing surgery. "

>

>

> _____

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

> O'Connor

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:06 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> Don,

>

> I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a patient any

> confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey have

> intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention and the

> belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine, Oriental

> Medicine

>

> and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept - and " conventional "

> doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a treatment

> will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or failure of any

> treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking almost 40%

> of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the part of

> the

> patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

> approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed to this

> mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo effect,

> which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined illness.

> The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and proven cure

> for

> a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is still a

> complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate with

> harnessing this powerful effect.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Dermot

>

>

>

> -

> " daomsnow " <don83407

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

> Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

> important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that view.

> If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

> work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

>

> Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep and

> I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe that

> it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

> course you know the answer to that one.

>

> Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

> acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle

> into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

> trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

> medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

> practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

> practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

> practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

>

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

>

>

> In Chinese Medicine , " "

> < wrote:

>>

>> Hi David

>>

>> > If the order of needling is not important ...

>>

>> I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

> needling order

>> really IS important.

>>

>> > ... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

>>

>> Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

>> important.

>>

>> We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

>> (numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

> wrongly) that

>> something is necessary, one does it that way.

>>

>> > Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

> Ghost

>> > points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity etc?

>>

>> See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

>> possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the way

> one can /

>> must use to do that.

>>

>> > You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling techniques,

> which

>> > places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

>> > specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to the

>> > acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

>>

>> Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim that

> laser

>> or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

>>

>> IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly flexible.

> IMO, AP

>> given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

> Shamanism) works

>> on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

> that I have

>> observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

> same way.

>> It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

> concepts in

>> common, but may disagree on other concepts.

>>

>> I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

>> (a) the POINTS used,

>> (b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

>> © the THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating on

>> those points that is most important?

>>

>> Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

> problems, my

>> gut says © is the most important factor. But I am open to being

> shown to

>> be wrong in that.

>>

>> Best regards,

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

>

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

> necessary.

>

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Share on other sites

Guest guest

Don,

 

Hopefully this knocks it on the head once and for all.....Your original

point was....

 

" I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle

into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

medicine. "

 

Now we know that the results would NOT be identical UNLESS the patient has

the same degree of belief and expectation from being treated by a monkey as

they would have being treated by a trained acupuncturist. As being treated

by a monkey is pretty ridiculous its highly unlikely that this would be the

case. The only other way that they would be identical would be if the

placebo response did NOT apply and the success of the treatment was ENTIRELY

100% due to the effect of the needles. Don, as you now accept that the

placebo response does apply to all real medicine - including acupuncture,

your original proposition is therefore fundamentally flawed.

 

Once again, I am an acupuncturist. I know acupuncture works and works

beyond placebo. It is real medicine. But just like all forms of real

medicine, belief and intention play a significant role and should not be

dismissed. Your original proposition here dismisses belief and intention

100% and is therefore incorrect.

 

Kind regards

 

Dermot

 

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Friday, May 19, 2006 7:31 AM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Yes, yes, yes. But for a medicine or a procedure to be " approved, " it must

be more efficacious than placebo. Is that not right? And THAT is my point

with acupuncture. It works beyond placebo and belief.

 

 

Dr. Snow

 

-

Dermot O'Connor

Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:21 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

In actual fact animals to exhibit a placebo response and in medical trials

on animals they too usually include a placebo control group. Indeed this

fact suggests that perhaps the intention and belief of the person providing

the treatment is important. Thanks for for that Don.

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Thursday, May 18, 2006 3:08 PM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

> OK let's do it this way. If I have a fish that has ick and I treat that

> fish with the current ick medicine and he gets well. Did the fish have to

> believe in the medicine to get well? Did I have to have the intent? Or

> could the monkey have accidentely dropped the medicine in the water, and

> the fish got well. Placebo anyone?

>

>

> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM

> -

> Ray Ford

> Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:55 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even) needling)

>

> Dermot, this is very,very funny,well said,made my day.

>

> " Indeed, just as you would need to show a better clinical outcome than a

> monkey performing surgery. "

>

>

> _____

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

> O'Connor

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:06 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> Don,

>

> I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a patient any

> confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey have

> intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention and the

> belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine, Oriental

> Medicine

>

> and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept - and " conventional "

> doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a treatment

> will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or failure of any

> treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking almost 40%

> of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the part of

> the

> patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

> approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed to this

> mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo effect,

> which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined illness.

> The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and proven cure

> for

> a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is still a

> complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate with

> harnessing this powerful effect.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Dermot

>

>

>

> -

> " daomsnow " <don83407

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

> Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

> important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that view.

> If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

> work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

>

> Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep and

> I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe that

> it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

> course you know the answer to that one.

>

> Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

> acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle

> into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

> trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

> medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

> practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

> practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

> practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

>

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

>

>

> In Chinese Medicine , " "

> < wrote:

>>

>> Hi David

>>

>> > If the order of needling is not important ...

>>

>> I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

> needling order

>> really IS important.

>>

>> > ... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

>>

>> Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

>> important.

>>

>> We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

>> (numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

> wrongly) that

>> something is necessary, one does it that way.

>>

>> > Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

> Ghost

>> > points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity etc?

>>

>> See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

>> possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the way

> one can /

>> must use to do that.

>>

>> > You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling techniques,

> which

>> > places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

>> > specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to the

>> > acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

>>

>> Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim that

> laser

>> or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

>>

>> IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly flexible.

> IMO, AP

>> given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

> Shamanism) works

>> on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

> that I have

>> observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

> same way.

>> It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

> concepts in

>> common, but may disagree on other concepts.

>>

>> I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

>> (a) the POINTS used,

>> (b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

>> © the THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating on

>> those points that is most important?

>>

>> Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

> problems, my

>> gut says © is the most important factor. But I am open to being

> shown to

>> be wrong in that.

>>

>> Best regards,

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

>

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

> necessary.

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Dermot, yes I agree 100% .Although if you pay peanuts you will get monkeys.

 

Ray Ford

 

 

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

O'Connor

Friday, May 19, 2006 8:36 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

 

Don,

 

Hopefully this knocks it on the head once and for all.....Your original

point was....

 

" I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle

into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

medicine. "

 

Now we know that the results would NOT be identical UNLESS the patient has

the same degree of belief and expectation from being treated by a monkey as

they would have being treated by a trained acupuncturist. As being treated

by a monkey is pretty ridiculous its highly unlikely that this would be the

case. The only other way that they would be identical would be if the

placebo response did NOT apply and the success of the treatment was ENTIRELY

 

100% due to the effect of the needles. Don, as you now accept that the

placebo response does apply to all real medicine - including acupuncture,

your original proposition is therefore fundamentally flawed.

 

Once again, I am an acupuncturist. I know acupuncture works and works

beyond placebo. It is real medicine. But just like all forms of real

medicine, belief and intention play a significant role and should not be

dismissed. Your original proposition here dismisses belief and intention

100% and is therefore incorrect.

 

Kind regards

 

Dermot

 

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Friday, May 19, 2006 7:31 AM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Yes, yes, yes. But for a medicine or a procedure to be " approved, " it must

be more efficacious than placebo. Is that not right? And THAT is my point

with acupuncture. It works beyond placebo and belief.

 

 

Dr. Snow

 

-

Dermot O'Connor

Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:21 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

In actual fact animals to exhibit a placebo response and in medical trials

on animals they too usually include a placebo control group. Indeed this

fact suggests that perhaps the intention and belief of the person providing

the treatment is important. Thanks for for that Don.

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Thursday, May 18, 2006 3:08 PM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

> OK let's do it this way. If I have a fish that has ick and I treat that

> fish with the current ick medicine and he gets well. Did the fish have to

> believe in the medicine to get well? Did I have to have the intent? Or

> could the monkey have accidentely dropped the medicine in the water, and

> the fish got well. Placebo anyone?

>

>

> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM

> -

> Ray Ford

> Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:55 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even) needling)

>

> Dermot, this is very,very funny,well said,made my day.

>

> " Indeed, just as you would need to show a better clinical outcome than a

> monkey performing surgery. "

>

>

> _____

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

> O'Connor

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:06 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> Don,

>

> I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a patient any

> confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey have

> intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention and the

> belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine, Oriental

> Medicine

>

> and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept - and " conventional "

> doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a treatment

> will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or failure of any

> treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking almost 40%

> of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the part of

> the

> patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

> approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed to this

> mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo effect,

> which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined illness.

> The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and proven cure

> for

> a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is still a

> complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate with

> harnessing this powerful effect.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Dermot

>

>

>

> -

> " daomsnow " <don83407

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

> Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

> important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that view.

> If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

> work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

>

> Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep and

> I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe that

> it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

> course you know the answer to that one.

>

> Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

> acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle

> into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

> trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

> medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

> practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

> practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

> practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

>

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

>

>

> In Chinese Medicine , " "

> < wrote:

>>

>> Hi David

>>

>> > If the order of needling is not important ...

>>

>> I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

> needling order

>> really IS important.

>>

>> > ... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

>>

>> Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

>> important.

>>

>> We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

>> (numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

> wrongly) that

>> something is necessary, one does it that way.

>>

>> > Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

> Ghost

>> > points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity etc?

>>

>> See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

>> possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the way

> one can /

>> must use to do that.

>>

>> > You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling techniques,

> which

>> > places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

>> > specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to the

>> > acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

>>

>> Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim that

> laser

>> or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

>>

>> IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly flexible.

> IMO, AP

>> given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

> Shamanism) works

>> on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

> that I have

>> observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

> same way.

>> It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

> concepts in

>> common, but may disagree on other concepts.

>>

>> I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

>> (a) the POINTS used,

>> (b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

>> © the THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating on

>> those points that is most important?

>>

>> Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

> problems, my

>> gut says © is the most important factor. But I am open to being

> shown to

>> be wrong in that.

>>

>> Best regards,

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

>

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

> necessary.

>

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Look, I'm a doctor with published research. I know all that. But you can't

know that a that a monkey would not get the same result. You do the research

and prove it.

 

Dr. Snow

 

-

Dermot O'Connor

Friday, May 19, 2006 3:36 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

Don,

 

Hopefully this knocks it on the head once and for all.....Your original

point was....

 

" I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle

into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

medicine. "

 

Now we know that the results would NOT be identical UNLESS the patient has

the same degree of belief and expectation from being treated by a monkey as

they would have being treated by a trained acupuncturist. As being treated

by a monkey is pretty ridiculous its highly unlikely that this would be the

case. The only other way that they would be identical would be if the

placebo response did NOT apply and the success of the treatment was ENTIRELY

100% due to the effect of the needles. Don, as you now accept that the

placebo response does apply to all real medicine - including acupuncture,

your original proposition is therefore fundamentally flawed.

 

Once again, I am an acupuncturist. I know acupuncture works and works

beyond placebo. It is real medicine. But just like all forms of real

medicine, belief and intention play a significant role and should not be

dismissed. Your original proposition here dismisses belief and intention

100% and is therefore incorrect.

 

Kind regards

 

Dermot

 

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Friday, May 19, 2006 7:31 AM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Yes, yes, yes. But for a medicine or a procedure to be " approved, " it must

be more efficacious than placebo. Is that not right? And THAT is my point

with acupuncture. It works beyond placebo and belief.

 

 

Dr. Snow

 

-

Dermot O'Connor

Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:21 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

In actual fact animals to exhibit a placebo response and in medical trials

on animals they too usually include a placebo control group. Indeed this

fact suggests that perhaps the intention and belief of the person providing

the treatment is important. Thanks for for that Don.

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Thursday, May 18, 2006 3:08 PM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

> OK let's do it this way. If I have a fish that has ick and I treat that

> fish with the current ick medicine and he gets well. Did the fish have to

> believe in the medicine to get well? Did I have to have the intent? Or

> could the monkey have accidentely dropped the medicine in the water, and

> the fish got well. Placebo anyone?

>

>

> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM

> -

> Ray Ford

> Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:55 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even) needling)

>

> Dermot, this is very,very funny,well said,made my day.

>

> " Indeed, just as you would need to show a better clinical outcome than a

> monkey performing surgery. "

>

>

> _____

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

> O'Connor

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:06 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> Don,

>

> I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a patient any

> confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey have

> intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention and the

> belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine, Oriental

> Medicine

>

> and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept - and " conventional "

> doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a treatment

> will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or failure of any

> treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking almost 40%

> of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the part of

> the

> patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

> approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed to this

> mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo effect,

> which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined illness.

> The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and proven cure

> for

> a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is still a

> complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate with

> harnessing this powerful effect.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Dermot

>

>

>

> -

> " daomsnow " <don83407

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

> Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

> important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that view.

> If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

> work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

>

> Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep and

> I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe that

> it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

> course you know the answer to that one.

>

> Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

> acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle

> into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

> trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

> medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

> practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

> practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

> practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

>

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

>

>

> In Chinese Medicine , " "

> < wrote:

>>

>> Hi David

>>

>> > If the order of needling is not important ...

>>

>> I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

> needling order

>> really IS important.

>>

>> > ... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

>>

>> Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

>> important.

>>

>> We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

>> (numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

> wrongly) that

>> something is necessary, one does it that way.

>>

>> > Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

> Ghost

>> > points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity etc?

>>

>> See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

>> possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the way

> one can /

>> must use to do that.

>>

>> > You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling techniques,

> which

>> > places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

>> > specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to the

>> > acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

>>

>> Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim that

> laser

>> or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

>>

>> IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly flexible.

> IMO, AP

>> given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

> Shamanism) works

>> on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

> that I have

>> observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

> same way.

>> It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

> concepts in

>> common, but may disagree on other concepts.

>>

>> I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

>> (a) the POINTS used,

>> (b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

>> © the THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating on

>> those points that is most important?

>>

>> Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

> problems, my

>> gut says © is the most important factor. But I am open to being

> shown to

>> be wrong in that.

>>

>> Best regards,

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

>

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

> necessary.

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

I've always accepted that folks. That was never my point or my argument. My

argument was that penicillin/antibiotics works despite belief in, so does our

medicine. Is that so hard to understand?

 

 

Dr. Snow

 

-

Dermot O'Connor

Friday, May 19, 2006 1:58 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

And that is my point too Don, I never said acupuncture was only a placebo

response. I simply made the point (as have your own students) that intent

and belief are very important COMPONENT of the healing process. You seem to

accept that now, but at the beginning of the thread you were very dismissive

of intent and belief..

 

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Friday, May 19, 2006 7:31 AM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Yes, yes, yes. But for a medicine or a procedure to be " approved, " it must

be more efficacious than placebo. Is that not right? And THAT is my point

with acupuncture. It works beyond placebo and belief.

 

 

Dr. Snow

 

-

Dermot O'Connor

Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:21 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

In actual fact animals to exhibit a placebo response and in medical trials

on animals they too usually include a placebo control group. Indeed this

fact suggests that perhaps the intention and belief of the person providing

the treatment is important. Thanks for for that Don.

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Thursday, May 18, 2006 3:08 PM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

> OK let's do it this way. If I have a fish that has ick and I treat that

> fish with the current ick medicine and he gets well. Did the fish have to

> believe in the medicine to get well? Did I have to have the intent? Or

> could the monkey have accidentely dropped the medicine in the water, and

> the fish got well. Placebo anyone?

>

>

> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM

> -

> Ray Ford

> Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:55 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even) needling)

>

> Dermot, this is very,very funny,well said,made my day.

>

> " Indeed, just as you would need to show a better clinical outcome than a

> monkey performing surgery. "

>

>

> _____

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

> O'Connor

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:06 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> Don,

>

> I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a patient any

> confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey have

> intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention and the

> belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine, Oriental

> Medicine

>

> and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept - and " conventional "

> doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a treatment

> will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or failure of any

> treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking almost 40%

> of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the part of

> the

> patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

> approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed to this

> mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo effect,

> which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined illness.

> The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and proven cure

> for

> a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is still a

> complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate with

> harnessing this powerful effect.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Dermot

>

>

>

> -

> " daomsnow " <don83407

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

> Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

> important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that view.

> If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

> work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

>

> Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep and

> I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe that

> it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

> course you know the answer to that one.

>

> Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

> acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle

> into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

> trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

> medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

> practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

> practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

> practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

>

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

>

>

> In Chinese Medicine , " "

> < wrote:

>>

>> Hi David

>>

>> > If the order of needling is not important ...

>>

>> I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

> needling order

>> really IS important.

>>

>> > ... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

>>

>> Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

>> important.

>>

>> We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

>> (numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

> wrongly) that

>> something is necessary, one does it that way.

>>

>> > Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

> Ghost

>> > points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity etc?

>>

>> See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

>> possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the way

> one can /

>> must use to do that.

>>

>> > You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling techniques,

> which

>> > places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

>> > specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to the

>> > acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

>>

>> Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim that

> laser

>> or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

>>

>> IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly flexible.

> IMO, AP

>> given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

> Shamanism) works

>> on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

> that I have

>> observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

> same way.

>> It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

> concepts in

>> common, but may disagree on other concepts.

>>

>> I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

>> (a) the POINTS used,

>> (b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

>> © the THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating on

>> those points that is most important?

>>

>> Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

> problems, my

>> gut says © is the most important factor. But I am open to being

> shown to

>> be wrong in that.

>>

>> Best regards,

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

>

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

> necessary.

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

OK Don, I think you live in your own world. Tell me as soon as you have the

monkeys trained and I'll organise the study.

 

Best regards

 

Dermot

 

 

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Friday, May 19, 2006 2:20 PM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Look, I'm a doctor with published research. I know all that. But you can't

know that a that a monkey would not get the same result. You do the

research and prove it.

 

Dr. Snow

 

-

Dermot O'Connor

Friday, May 19, 2006 3:36 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

Don,

 

Hopefully this knocks it on the head once and for all.....Your original

point was....

 

" I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle

into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

medicine. "

 

Now we know that the results would NOT be identical UNLESS the patient has

the same degree of belief and expectation from being treated by a monkey as

they would have being treated by a trained acupuncturist. As being treated

by a monkey is pretty ridiculous its highly unlikely that this would be the

case. The only other way that they would be identical would be if the

placebo response did NOT apply and the success of the treatment was ENTIRELY

100% due to the effect of the needles. Don, as you now accept that the

placebo response does apply to all real medicine - including acupuncture,

your original proposition is therefore fundamentally flawed.

 

Once again, I am an acupuncturist. I know acupuncture works and works

beyond placebo. It is real medicine. But just like all forms of real

medicine, belief and intention play a significant role and should not be

dismissed. Your original proposition here dismisses belief and intention

100% and is therefore incorrect.

 

Kind regards

 

Dermot

 

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Friday, May 19, 2006 7:31 AM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Yes, yes, yes. But for a medicine or a procedure to be " approved, " it must

be more efficacious than placebo. Is that not right? And THAT is my point

with acupuncture. It works beyond placebo and belief.

 

 

Dr. Snow

 

-

Dermot O'Connor

Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:21 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

In actual fact animals to exhibit a placebo response and in medical trials

on animals they too usually include a placebo control group. Indeed this

fact suggests that perhaps the intention and belief of the person providing

the treatment is important. Thanks for for that Don.

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Thursday, May 18, 2006 3:08 PM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

> OK let's do it this way. If I have a fish that has ick and I treat that

> fish with the current ick medicine and he gets well. Did the fish have to

> believe in the medicine to get well? Did I have to have the intent? Or

> could the monkey have accidentely dropped the medicine in the water, and

> the fish got well. Placebo anyone?

>

>

> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM

> -

> Ray Ford

> Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:55 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even) needling)

>

> Dermot, this is very,very funny,well said,made my day.

>

> " Indeed, just as you would need to show a better clinical outcome than a

> monkey performing surgery. "

>

>

> _____

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

> O'Connor

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:06 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> Don,

>

> I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a patient any

> confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey have

> intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention and the

> belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine, Oriental

> Medicine

>

> and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept - and " conventional "

> doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a treatment

> will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or failure of any

> treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking almost 40%

> of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the part of

> the

> patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

> approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed to this

> mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo effect,

> which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined illness.

> The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and proven cure

> for

> a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is still a

> complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate with

> harnessing this powerful effect.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Dermot

>

>

>

> -

> " daomsnow " <don83407

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

> Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

> important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that view.

> If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

> work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

>

> Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep and

> I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe that

> it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

> course you know the answer to that one.

>

> Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

> acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle

> into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

> trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

> medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

> practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

> practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

> practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

>

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

>

>

> In Chinese Medicine , " "

> < wrote:

>>

>> Hi David

>>

>> > If the order of needling is not important ...

>>

>> I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

> needling order

>> really IS important.

>>

>> > ... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

>>

>> Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

>> important.

>>

>> We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

>> (numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

> wrongly) that

>> something is necessary, one does it that way.

>>

>> > Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

> Ghost

>> > points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity etc?

>>

>> See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

>> possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the way

> one can /

>> must use to do that.

>>

>> > You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling techniques,

> which

>> > places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

>> > specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to the

>> > acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

>>

>> Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim that

> laser

>> or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

>>

>> IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly flexible.

> IMO, AP

>> given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

> Shamanism) works

>> on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

> that I have

>> observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

> same way.

>> It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

> concepts in

>> common, but may disagree on other concepts.

>>

>> I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

>> (a) the POINTS used,

>> (b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

>> © the THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating on

>> those points that is most important?

>>

>> Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

> problems, my

>> gut says © is the most important factor. But I am open to being

> shown to

>> be wrong in that.

>>

>> Best regards,

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

>

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

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>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

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This kind of sarcasm from both Dermot, Ray and Dr Snow is boarding on

flaming. It's not helping the discussions at all.

 

Kind regards,

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM

Editor

Times

+44 (0) 208 367 8378

enquiries

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/>

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

O'Connor

19 May 2006 15:37

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

 

OK Don, I think you live in your own world. Tell me as soon as you have the

 

monkeys trained and I'll organise the study.

 

Best regards

 

Dermot

 

 

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Friday, May 19, 2006 2:20 PM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Look, I'm a doctor with published research. I know all that. But you can't

 

know that a that a monkey would not get the same result. You do the

research and prove it.

 

Dr. Snow

 

-

Dermot O'Connor

Friday, May 19, 2006 3:36 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

Don,

 

Hopefully this knocks it on the head once and for all.....Your original

point was....

 

" I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle

into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

medicine. "

 

Now we know that the results would NOT be identical UNLESS the patient has

the same degree of belief and expectation from being treated by a monkey as

they would have being treated by a trained acupuncturist. As being treated

by a monkey is pretty ridiculous its highly unlikely that this would be the

case. The only other way that they would be identical would be if the

placebo response did NOT apply and the success of the treatment was ENTIRELY

100% due to the effect of the needles. Don, as you now accept that the

placebo response does apply to all real medicine - including acupuncture,

your original proposition is therefore fundamentally flawed.

 

Once again, I am an acupuncturist. I know acupuncture works and works

beyond placebo. It is real medicine. But just like all forms of real

medicine, belief and intention play a significant role and should not be

dismissed. Your original proposition here dismisses belief and intention

100% and is therefore incorrect.

 

Kind regards

 

Dermot

 

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Friday, May 19, 2006 7:31 AM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Yes, yes, yes. But for a medicine or a procedure to be " approved, " it must

be more efficacious than placebo. Is that not right? And THAT is my point

with acupuncture. It works beyond placebo and belief.

 

 

Dr. Snow

 

-

Dermot O'Connor

Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:21 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

In actual fact animals to exhibit a placebo response and in medical trials

on animals they too usually include a placebo control group. Indeed this

fact suggests that perhaps the intention and belief of the person providing

the treatment is important. Thanks for for that Don.

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Thursday, May 18, 2006 3:08 PM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

> OK let's do it this way. If I have a fish that has ick and I treat that

> fish with the current ick medicine and he gets well. Did the fish have to

> believe in the medicine to get well? Did I have to have the intent? Or

> could the monkey have accidentely dropped the medicine in the water, and

> the fish got well. Placebo anyone?

>

>

> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM

> -

> Ray Ford

> Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:55 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even) needling)

>

> Dermot, this is very,very funny,well said,made my day.

>

> " Indeed, just as you would need to show a better clinical outcome than a

> monkey performing surgery. "

>

>

> _____

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

> O'Connor

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:06 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> Don,

>

> I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a patient any

> confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey have

> intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention and the

> belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine, Oriental

> Medicine

>

> and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept - and " conventional "

> doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a treatment

> will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or failure of any

> treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking almost 40%

> of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the part of

> the

> patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

> approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed to this

> mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo effect,

> which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined illness.

> The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and proven cure

> for

> a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is still a

> complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate with

> harnessing this powerful effect.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Dermot

>

>

>

> -

> " daomsnow " <don83407

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

> Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

> important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that view.

> If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

> work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

>

> Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep and

> I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe that

> it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

> course you know the answer to that one.

>

> Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

> acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle

> into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

> trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

> medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

> practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

> practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

> practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

>

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

>

>

> In Chinese Medicine , " "

> < wrote:

>>

>> Hi David

>>

>> > If the order of needling is not important ...

>>

>> I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

> needling order

>> really IS important.

>>

>> > ... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

>>

>> Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

>> important.

>>

>> We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

>> (numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

> wrongly) that

>> something is necessary, one does it that way.

>>

>> > Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

> Ghost

>> > points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity etc?

>>

>> See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

>> possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the way

> one can /

>> must use to do that.

>>

>> > You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling techniques,

> which

>> > places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

>> > specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to the

>> > acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

>>

>> Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim that

> laser

>> or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

>>

>> IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly flexible.

> IMO, AP

>> given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

> Shamanism) works

>> on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

> that I have

>> observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

> same way.

>> It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

> concepts in

>> common, but may disagree on other concepts.

>>

>> I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

>> (a) the POINTS used,

>> (b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

>> © the THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating on

>> those points that is most important?

>>

>> Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

> problems, my

>> gut says © is the most important factor. But I am open to being

> shown to

>> be wrong in that.

>>

>> Best regards,

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

>

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

> necessary.

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

What if the patient does not know if a monkey of LAc is treating him/her

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Dermot O'Connor

Chinese Medicine

Friday, May 19, 2006 3:35 AM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Don,

 

Hopefully this knocks it on the head once and for all.....Your original

point was....

 

" I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle

into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

medicine. "

 

Now we know that the results would NOT be identical UNLESS the patient has

the same degree of belief and expectation from being treated by a monkey as

they would have being treated by a trained acupuncturist. As being treated

by a monkey is pretty ridiculous its highly unlikely that this would be the

case. The only other way that they would be identical would be if the

placebo response did NOT apply and the success of the treatment was ENTIRELY

100% due to the effect of the needles. Don, as you now accept that the

placebo response does apply to all real medicine - including acupuncture,

your original proposition is therefore fundamentally flawed.

 

Once again, I am an acupuncturist. I know acupuncture works and works

beyond placebo. It is real medicine. But just like all forms of real

medicine, belief and intention play a significant role and should not be

dismissed. Your original proposition here dismisses belief and intention

100% and is therefore incorrect.

 

Kind regards

 

Dermot

 

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Friday, May 19, 2006 7:31 AM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Yes, yes, yes. But for a medicine or a procedure to be " approved, " it must

be more efficacious than placebo. Is that not right? And THAT is my point

with acupuncture. It works beyond placebo and belief.

 

 

Dr. Snow

 

-

Dermot O'Connor

Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:21 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

In actual fact animals to exhibit a placebo response and in medical trials

on animals they too usually include a placebo control group. Indeed this

fact suggests that perhaps the intention and belief of the person providing

the treatment is important. Thanks for for that Don.

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Thursday, May 18, 2006 3:08 PM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

> OK let's do it this way. If I have a fish that has ick and I treat that

> fish with the current ick medicine and he gets well. Did the fish have to

> believe in the medicine to get well? Did I have to have the intent? Or

> could the monkey have accidentely dropped the medicine in the water, and

> the fish got well. Placebo anyone?

>

>

> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM

> -

> Ray Ford

> Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:55 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even) needling)

>

> Dermot, this is very,very funny,well said,made my day.

>

> " Indeed, just as you would need to show a better clinical outcome than a

> monkey performing surgery. "

>

>

> _____

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

> O'Connor

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:06 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> Don,

>

> I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a patient any

> confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey have

> intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention and the

> belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine, Oriental

> Medicine

>

> and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept - and " conventional "

> doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a treatment

> will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or failure of any

> treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking almost 40%

> of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the part of

> the

> patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

> approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed to this

> mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo effect,

> which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined illness.

> The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and proven cure

> for

> a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is still a

> complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate with

> harnessing this powerful effect.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Dermot

>

>

>

> -

> " daomsnow " <don83407

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

> Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

> important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that view.

> If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

> work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

>

> Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep and

> I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe that

> it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

> course you know the answer to that one.

>

> Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

> acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle

> into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

> trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

> medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

> practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

> practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

> practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

>

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

>

>

> In Chinese Medicine , " "

> < wrote:

>>

>> Hi David

>>

>> > If the order of needling is not important ...

>>

>> I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

> needling order

>> really IS important.

>>

>> > ... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

>>

>> Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

>> important.

>>

>> We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

>> (numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

> wrongly) that

>> something is necessary, one does it that way.

>>

>> > Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

> Ghost

>> > points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity etc?

>>

>> See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

>> possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the way

> one can /

>> must use to do that.

>>

>> > You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling techniques,

> which

>> > places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

>> > specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to the

>> > acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

>>

>> Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim that

> laser

>> or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

>>

>> IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly flexible.

> IMO, AP

>> given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

> Shamanism) works

>> on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

> that I have

>> observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

> same way.

>> It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

> concepts in

>> common, but may disagree on other concepts.

>>

>> I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

>> (a) the POINTS used,

>> (b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

>> © the THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating on

>> those points that is most important?

>>

>> Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

> problems, my

>> gut says © is the most important factor. But I am open to being

> shown to

>> be wrong in that.

>>

>> Best regards,

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

>

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

> necessary.

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Dr Snow wrote

" Look, I'm a doctor with published research. I know all that. "

 

Exactly, so that is the end of this thread for me, enough said.

Ray Ford

 

 

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Friday, May 19, 2006 2:20 PM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

 

 

-

Dermot O'Connor

Friday, May 19, 2006 3:36 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

Don,

 

Hopefully this knocks it on the head once and for all.....Your original

point was....

 

" I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle

into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

medicine. "

 

Now we know that the results would NOT be identical UNLESS the patient has

the same degree of belief and expectation from being treated by a monkey as

they would have being treated by a trained acupuncturist. As being treated

by a monkey is pretty ridiculous its highly unlikely that this would be the

case. The only other way that they would be identical would be if the

placebo response did NOT apply and the success of the treatment was ENTIRELY

100% due to the effect of the needles. Don, as you now accept that the

placebo response does apply to all real medicine - including acupuncture,

your original proposition is therefore fundamentally flawed.

 

Once again, I am an acupuncturist. I know acupuncture works and works

beyond placebo. It is real medicine. But just like all forms of real

medicine, belief and intention play a significant role and should not be

dismissed. Your original proposition here dismisses belief and intention

100% and is therefore incorrect.

 

Kind regards

 

Dermot

 

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Friday, May 19, 2006 7:31 AM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Yes, yes, yes. But for a medicine or a procedure to be " approved, " it must

be more efficacious than placebo. Is that not right? And THAT is my point

with acupuncture. It works beyond placebo and belief.

 

 

Dr. Snow

 

-

Dermot O'Connor

Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:21 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

In actual fact animals to exhibit a placebo response and in medical trials

on animals they too usually include a placebo control group. Indeed this

fact suggests that perhaps the intention and belief of the person providing

the treatment is important. Thanks for for that Don.

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Thursday, May 18, 2006 3:08 PM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

> OK let's do it this way. If I have a fish that has ick and I treat that

> fish with the current ick medicine and he gets well. Did the fish have to

> believe in the medicine to get well? Did I have to have the intent? Or

> could the monkey have accidentely dropped the medicine in the water, and

> the fish got well. Placebo anyone?

>

>

> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM

> -

> Ray Ford

> Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:55 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even) needling)

>

> Dermot, this is very,very funny,well said,made my day.

>

> " Indeed, just as you would need to show a better clinical outcome than a

> monkey performing surgery. "

>

>

> _____

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

> O'Connor

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:06 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> Don,

>

> I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a patient any

> confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey have

> intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention and the

> belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine, Oriental

> Medicine

>

> and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept - and " conventional "

> doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a treatment

> will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or failure of any

> treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking almost 40%

> of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the part of

> the

> patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

> approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed to this

> mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo effect,

> which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined illness.

> The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and proven cure

> for

> a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is still a

> complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate with

> harnessing this powerful effect.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Dermot

>

>

>

> -

> " daomsnow " <don83407

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

> Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

> important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that view.

> If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

> work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

>

> Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep and

> I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe that

> it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

> course you know the answer to that one.

>

> Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

> acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle

> into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

> trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

> medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

> practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

> practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

> practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

>

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

>

>

> In Chinese Medicine , " "

> < wrote:

>>

>> Hi David

>>

>> > If the order of needling is not important ...

>>

>> I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

> needling order

>> really IS important.

>>

>> > ... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

>>

>> Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

>> important.

>>

>> We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

>> (numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

> wrongly) that

>> something is necessary, one does it that way.

>>

>> > Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

> Ghost

>> > points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity etc?

>>

>> See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

>> possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the way

> one can /

>> must use to do that.

>>

>> > You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling techniques,

> which

>> > places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

>> > specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to the

>> > acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

>>

>> Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim that

> laser

>> or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

>>

>> IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly flexible.

> IMO, AP

>> given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

> Shamanism) works

>> on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

> that I have

>> observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

> same way.

>> It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

> concepts in

>> common, but may disagree on other concepts.

>>

>> I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

>> (a) the POINTS used,

>> (b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

>> © the THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating on

>> those points that is most important?

>>

>> Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

> problems, my

>> gut says © is the most important factor. But I am open to being

> shown to

>> be wrong in that.

>>

>> Best regards,

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

>

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

> necessary.

>

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Guest guest

They've been trained and the boat has left you behind.

 

Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, and credentialed

 

-

Dermot O'Connor

Friday, May 19, 2006 7:37 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

OK Don, I think you live in your own world. Tell me as soon as you have the

monkeys trained and I'll organise the study.

 

Best regards

 

Dermot

 

 

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Friday, May 19, 2006 2:20 PM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Look, I'm a doctor with published research. I know all that. But you can't

know that a that a monkey would not get the same result. You do the

research and prove it.

 

Dr. Snow

 

-

Dermot O'Connor

Friday, May 19, 2006 3:36 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

Don,

 

Hopefully this knocks it on the head once and for all.....Your original

point was....

 

" I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle

into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

medicine. "

 

Now we know that the results would NOT be identical UNLESS the patient has

the same degree of belief and expectation from being treated by a monkey as

they would have being treated by a trained acupuncturist. As being treated

by a monkey is pretty ridiculous its highly unlikely that this would be the

case. The only other way that they would be identical would be if the

placebo response did NOT apply and the success of the treatment was ENTIRELY

100% due to the effect of the needles. Don, as you now accept that the

placebo response does apply to all real medicine - including acupuncture,

your original proposition is therefore fundamentally flawed.

 

Once again, I am an acupuncturist. I know acupuncture works and works

beyond placebo. It is real medicine. But just like all forms of real

medicine, belief and intention play a significant role and should not be

dismissed. Your original proposition here dismisses belief and intention

100% and is therefore incorrect.

 

Kind regards

 

Dermot

 

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Friday, May 19, 2006 7:31 AM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Yes, yes, yes. But for a medicine or a procedure to be " approved, " it must

be more efficacious than placebo. Is that not right? And THAT is my point

with acupuncture. It works beyond placebo and belief.

 

 

Dr. Snow

 

-

Dermot O'Connor

Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:21 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

In actual fact animals to exhibit a placebo response and in medical trials

on animals they too usually include a placebo control group. Indeed this

fact suggests that perhaps the intention and belief of the person providing

the treatment is important. Thanks for for that Don.

 

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Thursday, May 18, 2006 3:08 PM

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

> OK let's do it this way. If I have a fish that has ick and I treat that

> fish with the current ick medicine and he gets well. Did the fish have to

> believe in the medicine to get well? Did I have to have the intent? Or

> could the monkey have accidentely dropped the medicine in the water, and

> the fish got well. Placebo anyone?

>

>

> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM

> -

> Ray Ford

> Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:55 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even) needling)

>

> Dermot, this is very,very funny,well said,made my day.

>

> " Indeed, just as you would need to show a better clinical outcome than a

> monkey performing surgery. "

>

>

> _____

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

> O'Connor

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:06 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> Don,

>

> I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a patient any

> confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey have

> intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention and the

> belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine, Oriental

> Medicine

>

> and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept - and " conventional "

> doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a treatment

> will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or failure of any

> treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking almost 40%

> of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the part of

> the

> patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

> approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed to this

> mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo effect,

> which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined illness.

> The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and proven cure

> for

> a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is still a

> complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate with

> harnessing this powerful effect.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Dermot

>

>

>

> -

> " daomsnow " <don83407

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

> Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

> important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that view.

> If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

> work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

>

> Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep and

> I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe that

> it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

> course you know the answer to that one.

>

> Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

> acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle

> into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

> trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

> medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

> practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

> practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

> practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

>

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

>

>

> In Chinese Medicine , " "

> < wrote:

>>

>> Hi David

>>

>> > If the order of needling is not important ...

>>

>> I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

> needling order

>> really IS important.

>>

>> > ... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

>>

>> Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

>> important.

>>

>> We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

>> (numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

> wrongly) that

>> something is necessary, one does it that way.

>>

>> > Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

> Ghost

>> > points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity etc?

>>

>> See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

>> possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the way

> one can /

>> must use to do that.

>>

>> > You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling techniques,

> which

>> > places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

>> > specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to the

>> > acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

>>

>> Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim that

> laser

>> or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

>>

>> IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly flexible.

> IMO, AP

>> given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

> Shamanism) works

>> on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

> that I have

>> observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

> same way.

>> It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

> concepts in

>> common, but may disagree on other concepts.

>>

>> I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

>> (a) the POINTS used,

>> (b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

>> © the THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating on

>> those points that is most important?

>>

>> Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

> problems, my

>> gut says © is the most important factor. But I am open to being

> shown to

>> be wrong in that.

>>

>> Best regards,

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

>

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

> necessary.

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Why would you have ever doubted that I didn't think placebo existed

or was important? I have 11 years of full time college education.

My point was that you can't will someone to get better, or put

your " mystical " power into them. But people here got too wrapped up

in the monkey to see the moon.

 

 

Dr. Don Snow, DAOM

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Dermot

O'Connor " <dermot wrote:

>

> And that is my point too Don, I never said acupuncture was only a

placebo

> response. I simply made the point (as have your own students) that

intent

> and belief are very important COMPONENT of the healing process.

You seem to

> accept that now, but at the beginning of the thread you were very

dismissive

> of intent and belief..

>

>

>

> -

> " Donald Snow " <don83407

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Friday, May 19, 2006 7:31 AM

> Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v

Neutral (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> Yes, yes, yes. But for a medicine or a procedure to be " approved, "

it must

> be more efficacious than placebo. Is that not right? And THAT is

my point

> with acupuncture. It works beyond placebo and belief.

>

>

> Dr. Snow

>

> -

> Dermot O'Connor

> Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:21 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v

Neutral (Even)

> needling)

>

> In actual fact animals to exhibit a placebo response and in medical

trials

> on animals they too usually include a placebo control group.

Indeed this

> fact suggests that perhaps the intention and belief of the person

providing

> the treatment is important. Thanks for for that Don.

>

>

> -

> " Donald Snow " <don83407

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Thursday, May 18, 2006 3:08 PM

> Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v

Neutral (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> > OK let's do it this way. If I have a fish that has ick and I

treat that

> > fish with the current ick medicine and he gets well. Did the

fish have to

> > believe in the medicine to get well? Did I have to have the

intent? Or

> > could the monkey have accidentely dropped the medicine in the

water, and

> > the fish got well. Placebo anyone?

> >

> >

> > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM

> > -

> > Ray Ford

> > Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:55 AM

> > Chinese Medicine

> > RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v

Neutral

> > (Even) needling)

> >

> > Dermot, this is very,very funny,well said,made my day.

> >

> > " Indeed, just as you would need to show a better clinical outcome

than a

> > monkey performing surgery. "

> >

> >

> > _____

> >

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Chinese Medicine On Behalf

Of Dermot

> > O'Connor

> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:06 PM

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v

Neutral

> > (Even)

> > needling)

> >

> >

> > Don,

> >

> > I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a

patient any

> > confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey

have

> > intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention

and the

> > belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine,

Oriental

> > Medicine

> >

> > and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept -

and " conventional "

> > doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a

treatment

> > will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or

failure of any

> > treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking

almost 40%

> > of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the

part of

> > the

> > patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

> > approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed

to this

> > mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo

effect,

> > which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined

illness.

> > The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and

proven cure

> > for

> > a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is

still a

> > complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate

with

> > harnessing this powerful effect.

> >

> > Kind regards

> >

> > Dermot

> >

> >

> >

> > -

> > " daomsnow " <don83407

> > <Chinese Medicine >

> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

> > Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

(Even)

> > needling)

> >

> >

> > I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

> > important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that

view.

> > If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

> > work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

> >

> > Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep

and

> > I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe

that

> > it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

> > course you know the answer to that one.

> >

> > Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

> > acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the

needle

> > into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

> > trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

> > medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

> > practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

> > practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

> > practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

> >

> >

> > Respectfully,

> >

> > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

> >

> >

> > In Chinese Medicine , " "

> > <@> wrote:

> >>

> >> Hi David

> >>

> >> > If the order of needling is not important ...

> >>

> >> I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

> > needling order

> >> really IS important.

> >>

> >> > ... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

> >>

> >> Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

> >> important.

> >>

> >> We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

> >> (numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

> > wrongly) that

> >> something is necessary, one does it that way.

> >>

> >> > Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

> > Ghost

> >> > points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity

etc?

> >>

> >> See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

> >> possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the

way

> > one can /

> >> must use to do that.

> >>

> >> > You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling

techniques,

> > which

> >> > places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

> >> > specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to

the

> >> > acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

> >>

> >> Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim

that

> > laser

> >> or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

> >>

> >> IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly

flexible.

> > IMO, AP

> >> given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

> > Shamanism) works

> >> on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

> > that I have

> >> observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

> > same way.

> >> It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

> > concepts in

> >> common, but may disagree on other concepts.

> >>

> >> I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

> >> (a) the POINTS used,

> >> (b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

> >> © the THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating

on

> >> those points that is most important?

> >>

> >> Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

> > problems, my

> >> gut says © is the most important factor. But I am open to being

> > shown to

> >> be wrong in that.

> >>

> >> Best regards,

> >>

> >>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese

Medicine Times

> > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

> >

> > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

> >

> >

> >

and adjust

> > accordingly.

> >

> > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

the group

> > requires prior permission from the author.

> >

> > Please consider the environment and only print this message if

absolutely

> > necessary.

> >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

As I said your proposition was fundamentally flawed, as it completely

discounted the role of belief. Unless the patients had the same belief and

expectation in the skill of the monkey as the did in the skill of the

trained acupuncturist then the results would differ. Generally speaking

patients would not have the same respect in the ability of a monkey as they

would have in a qualified acupuncturist. Perhaps if you were the

acupuncturist however, you think that they would? In that case you could be

right..

 

 

-

" daomsnow " <don83407

<Chinese Medicine >

Saturday, May 20, 2006 7:05 AM

Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

 

 

Why would you have ever doubted that I didn't think placebo existed

or was important? I have 11 years of full time college education.

My point was that you can't will someone to get better, or put

your " mystical " power into them. But people here got too wrapped up

in the monkey to see the moon.

 

 

Dr. Don Snow, DAOM

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Dermot

O'Connor " <dermot wrote:

>

> And that is my point too Don, I never said acupuncture was only a

placebo

> response. I simply made the point (as have your own students) that

intent

> and belief are very important COMPONENT of the healing process.

You seem to

> accept that now, but at the beginning of the thread you were very

dismissive

> of intent and belief..

>

>

>

> -

> " Donald Snow " <don83407

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Friday, May 19, 2006 7:31 AM

> Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v

Neutral (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> Yes, yes, yes. But for a medicine or a procedure to be " approved, "

it must

> be more efficacious than placebo. Is that not right? And THAT is

my point

> with acupuncture. It works beyond placebo and belief.

>

>

> Dr. Snow

>

> -

> Dermot O'Connor

> Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:21 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v

Neutral (Even)

> needling)

>

> In actual fact animals to exhibit a placebo response and in medical

trials

> on animals they too usually include a placebo control group.

Indeed this

> fact suggests that perhaps the intention and belief of the person

providing

> the treatment is important. Thanks for for that Don.

>

>

> -

> " Donald Snow " <don83407

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Thursday, May 18, 2006 3:08 PM

> Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v

Neutral (Even)

> needling)

>

>

> > OK let's do it this way. If I have a fish that has ick and I

treat that

> > fish with the current ick medicine and he gets well. Did the

fish have to

> > believe in the medicine to get well? Did I have to have the

intent? Or

> > could the monkey have accidentely dropped the medicine in the

water, and

> > the fish got well. Placebo anyone?

> >

> >

> > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM

> > -

> > Ray Ford

> > Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:55 AM

> > Chinese Medicine

> > RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v

Neutral

> > (Even) needling)

> >

> > Dermot, this is very,very funny,well said,made my day.

> >

> > " Indeed, just as you would need to show a better clinical outcome

than a

> > monkey performing surgery. "

> >

> >

> > _____

> >

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Chinese Medicine On Behalf

Of Dermot

> > O'Connor

> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:06 PM

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v

Neutral

> > (Even)

> > needling)

> >

> >

> > Don,

> >

> > I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a

patient any

> > confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey

have

> > intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention

and the

> > belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine,

Oriental

> > Medicine

> >

> > and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept -

and " conventional "

> > doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a

treatment

> > will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or

failure of any

> > treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking

almost 40%

> > of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the

part of

> > the

> > patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

> > approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed

to this

> > mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo

effect,

> > which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined

illness.

> > The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and

proven cure

> > for

> > a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is

still a

> > complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate

with

> > harnessing this powerful effect.

> >

> > Kind regards

> >

> > Dermot

> >

> >

> >

> > -

> > " daomsnow " <don83407

> > <Chinese Medicine >

> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

> > Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

(Even)

> > needling)

> >

> >

> > I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

> > important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that

view.

> > If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

> > work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

> >

> > Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep

and

> > I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe

that

> > it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

> > course you know the answer to that one.

> >

> > Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

> > acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the

needle

> > into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

> > trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

> > medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

> > practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

> > practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

> > practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

> >

> >

> > Respectfully,

> >

> > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

> >

> >

> > In Chinese Medicine , " "

> > <@> wrote:

> >>

> >> Hi David

> >>

> >> > If the order of needling is not important ...

> >>

> >> I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

> > needling order

> >> really IS important.

> >>

> >> > ... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

> >>

> >> Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

> >> important.

> >>

> >> We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

> >> (numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

> > wrongly) that

> >> something is necessary, one does it that way.

> >>

> >> > Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

> > Ghost

> >> > points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity

etc?

> >>

> >> See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

> >> possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the

way

> > one can /

> >> must use to do that.

> >>

> >> > You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling

techniques,

> > which

> >> > places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

> >> > specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to

the

> >> > acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

> >>

> >> Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim

that

> > laser

> >> or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

> >>

> >> IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly

flexible.

> > IMO, AP

> >> given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

> > Shamanism) works

> >> on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

> > that I have

> >> observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

> > same way.

> >> It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

> > concepts in

> >> common, but may disagree on other concepts.

> >>

> >> I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

> >> (a) the POINTS used,

> >> (b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

> >> © the THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating

on

> >> those points that is most important?

> >>

> >> Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

> > problems, my

> >> gut says © is the most important factor. But I am open to being

> > shown to

> >> be wrong in that.

> >>

> >> Best regards,

> >>

> >>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese

Medicine Times

> > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

> >

> > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

> >

> >

> >

and adjust

> > accordingly.

> >

> > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

the group

> > requires prior permission from the author.

> >

> > Please consider the environment and only print this message if

absolutely

> > necessary.

> >

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Don,

 

Sometimes what we call mystical is another way for saying that we do not

comprehend it. A consideration here might be how does wavelength or particle

emissions affect our healthcare interventions. We often do not consider the

arena of the atom and its physical characteristics in healthcare decisions.

Maybe we should be looking at some of this to attempt to explain before we call

it mystical. That is simply a cop-out in my books. FYI, I now have 12 years of

full-time college and 3 more to go on my DC degree. Thanks for the info.

MB

 

 

: don83407: Sat,

20 May 2006 06:05:06 +0000Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE

v Neutral (Even) needling)Why would you have ever doubted that I didn't think

placebo existed or was important? I have 11 years of full time college

education. My point was that you can't will someone to get better, or put your

" mystical " power into them. But people here got too wrapped up in the monkey to

see the moon.Dr. Don Snow, DAOM--- In

Chinese Medicine , " Dermot O'Connor " <dermot

wrote:>> And that is my point too Don, I never said acupuncture was only a

placebo > response. I simply made the point (as have your own students) that

intent > and belief are very important COMPONENT of the healing process. You

seem to > accept that now, but at the beginning of the thread you were very

dismissive > of intent and belief..> > > > - >

" Donald Snow " <don83407> To:

<Chinese Medicine >> Friday, May 19, 2006 7:31

AM> Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

> needling)> > > Yes, yes, yes. But for a medicine or a procedure to be

" approved, " it must > be more efficacious than placebo. Is that not right? And

THAT is my point > with acupuncture. It works beyond placebo and belief.> > >

Dr. Snow> > -> Dermot O'Connor> Thursday,

May 18, 2006 9:21 AM> Chinese Medicine > Subject:

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even) > needling)>

> In actual fact animals to exhibit a placebo response and in medical trials> on

animals they too usually include a placebo control group. Indeed this> fact

suggests that perhaps the intention and belief of the person providing> the

treatment is important. Thanks for for that Don.> > > ----- Original Message

-----> " Donald Snow " <don83407> To:

<Chinese Medicine >> Thursday, May 18, 2006

3:08 PM> Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

(Even)> needling)> > > > OK let's do it this way. If I have a fish that has ick

and I treat that> > fish with the current ick medicine and he gets well. Did

the fish have to> > believe in the medicine to get well? Did I have to have the

intent? Or> > could the monkey have accidentely dropped the medicine in the

water, and> > the fish got well. Placebo anyone?> >> >> > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM> >

-> > Ray Ford> > Thursday, May 18, 2006

4:55 AM> > Chinese Medicine > > RE: TCM

- Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral> > (Even) needling)> >> >

Dermot, this is very,very funny,well said,made my day.> >> > " Indeed, just as

you would need to show a better clinical outcome than a> > monkey performing

surgery. " > >> >> > _____> >> >

Chinese Medicine > >

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot> >

O'Connor> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:06 PM> > To:

Chinese Medicine > > Re: Re: Needling

ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral> > (Even)> > needling)> >> >> > Don,> >> >

I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a patient any> >

confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey have> >

intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention and the> >

belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine, Oriental> > Medicine>

>> > and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept - and " conventional " > >

doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a treatment> > will

work plays a hugely significant role in the success or failure of any> >

treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking almost 40%> > of

illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the part of> > the> >

patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work> >

approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed to this> >

mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo effect,> >

which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined illness.> > The

placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and proven cure> > for> > a

scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is still a> > complete

mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate with> > harnessing this

powerful effect.> >> > Kind regards> >> > Dermot> >> >> >> > ----- Original

Message -----> > " daomsnow " <don83407> > To:

<Chinese Medicine >> > Wednesday, May 17, 2006

7:18 AM> > Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

(Even)> > needling)> >> >> > I have many students that believe the practioners

intention to be> > important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that

view.> > If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to> >

work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.> >> > Let me explain. If you

have, for instance, pheumonia from strep and> > I give you amoxycillan. Do you

or the patient have to believe that> > it will work? Or will it work despite

you intent of belief? Of> > course you know the answer to that one.> >> >

Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an> > acupuncture

prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the needle> > into that point,

the result would be identical to that which a> > trained acupuncturist would

get. That is the result of a true> > medicine. If one has to believe in it to

work, then we are> > practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what

I> > practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We> > practice

Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.> >> >> > Respectfully,> >> > Dr. Don J.

Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.> >> >> > In

Chinese Medicine , " " > > <@>

wrote:> >>> >> Hi David> >>> >> > If the order of needling is not important ...>

>>> >> I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that> >

needling order> >> really IS important.> >>> >> > ... then why are the ancient

texts written a certain way?> >>> >> Probably because the original writers

BELIEVED that the order was> >> important.> >>> >> We know that TCM had a

significant basis in Shamanism/magic> >> (numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one

believes (rightly or> > wrongly) that> >> something is necessary, one does it

that way.> >>> >> > Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are

the> > Ghost> >> > points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity

etc?> >>> >> See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic->

>> possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the way> > one

can /> >> must use to do that.> >>> >> > You think that a medicine that

describes 20+ needling techniques,> > which> >> > places an onus on practioner

intent, would ascribe anything,> >> > specifically needling order to whimsy or

to what is closest to the> >> > acupuncturist's body as they are working? David

Appleton L.Ac> >>> >> Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some

claim that> > laser> >> or guasha is even more powerful than needling.> >>> >>

IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly flexible.> > IMO, AP>

>> given by a trained professional (especially one trained in> > Shamanism)

works> >> on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists> >

that I have> >> observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the>

> same way.> >> It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain>

> concepts in> >> common, but may disagree on other concepts.> >>> >> I am

trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it> >> (a) the POINTS used,> >>

(b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or> >> © the

THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating on> >> those points that

is most important?> >>> >> Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the

patient's> > problems, my> >> gut says © is the most important factor. But I

am open to being> > shown to> >> be wrong in that.> >>> >> Best regards,> >>

> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Subscribe to the new FREE

online journal for TCM at Times> >

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com> >> > Download the all new TCM Forum

Toolbar, click,> > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145> >>

> > >

and adjust> >

accordingly.> >> > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication

outside the group> > requires prior permission from the author.> >> > Please

consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely> >

necessary.> >

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