Bill: a Response

May 15, 2006

I never said it was outside our scope of practice; you said it. If you actually

read my primary response you will see what I said.

I fully agree with you. We are, and should legally be, primary care physicians

within the medical system. That's why I went the extra 10 yards and earned the

Doctorate degree. I try not only to " talk the talk, but to walk the walk. " It

was not an easy degree, nor was it cheap. It was a real doctorate.

If you'll notice. I practiced Western medicine for 22 years, and not usually

under the supervision of an M.D. I've performed appendectomies, sutured,

prescribed medications, admitted patients, etc. I've been in 3 wars and I've

forgotten more western medicine than most acupuncturists will probably ever

learn, except perhaps in a book. Today, I practice TCM and I integrate WM when

necessary, I order labs, xrays, and request (and usually get) MRI's and other

costly diagnostics because I know the system and I teach my patients how to use

the system. I am not under any HMOs or Managed Care, I fired ASHP two years ago

for, I believe, cheating me. I have a cash only practice and am relatively

successful. I own or co-own two corporations and both are actually making

money.

Yes, I hate the current system because we have so much to offer. We do not have

the lobby money necessary to compete with either the Chiros or the allopaths

because we have so many competing acupuncture associations none are making any

real money. Those that are well funded allow allopaths and Chiros in

memberships and then we find those organizations no longer really represent us.

I am not totally ignorant of what is going on out there. Like you, I resent it

and I'm frustrated. But until WE get together on the SAME sheet, we will stay

fragmented. That's the only answer I have. I suggest that everyone get the

doctorate, then they have no more excuses because our doctorate is essentially 2

more years of full time education than theirs. Everyone seems to want to get

the licensing names changed to DOM, OMD, etc. But then that's not really a

doctorate degree, is it? We also get a heck of a lot of hours in Western

medicine (I know that because that's what I teach). They get almost no hours in

our medicine. The laws were written by them, for them. So the only way to

change it is through your and my patient base. My patients get relief and it's

usually the only place they received it. Most come to me years AFTER Western

medicine and Chiro has failed them. Frankly, when they get the relief many are

mad as hell because they have been told the " Grand Lie " the nobody can help

them. " You're incurable, etc, etc, ad nauseum,.... " These folks vote..and THEY

might can change the system.

I don't need somebody who has no idea where I come from or where I've been

asking me a silly sarcastic question, " Can you move joints? "

Thanks for the soapbox.

Respectfully,

Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr.,

D.A.O.M., M.P.H., M.S.T.O.M., L.Ac., Dipl. Ac.

CPT, MS, USA (Ret.)

-

mike Bowser

Sunday, May 14, 2006 7:32 AM

Chinese Medicine

RE: Re: Bill

Don,

First question. Can you move joints? Then why do you assume that manipulation

of a joint is outside your scope of practice? If you are not using a HVLA

thrust or falsely advertising adjustments?

You make an excellent point which is why our profession needs to get involved

with future creation of a single payer, universal coverage system. IMO we have

been witness to a fleecing of Americans and small businesses by the insr/HMO

industry and the current medical system. People are being forced to wait for

critical events to seek out care (recent study showed more ER visits) either by

bank account or HMO. There is no way that suddenly our population will all

decide to choose CM, there are too many logistical problems with that as well as

payment issues. However, we should be included with making decisions on the

future system though, and included as a primary physician (nothing less). It

saddens me to hear many confused practitioners who have an emotional response

simply out of fear or limitation for a certain business model. The patient's

needs are not considered in all of this dialogue nor is the future of our

profession. Those who can and will change are those who will survive. Take

care and sorry about the rant. BTW, CA has universal payer legislation that has

made it out of committee and still needs to be voted on by the legislature. Go

CA!

MB

: don83407: Sat,

13 May 2006 14:58:29 -0700Re: BillI teach at PCOM and we teach

only what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoral program, we

had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is

not in our scope of practice. It seems only reasonable to teach scope of

practice because it would be illegal to practice the full scope in the US. I

was a physician assistant in the military and was trained to prescribe, perform

some minor surgerys, etc. Believe me, general, non-specialty western medicine

is extremely easy to practice though allopaths like to make the public think it

is difficult. But look at military medicine where you have Corpsmen and medics

with three months of training safely prescribing drugs (limited prescription

priviledges), ordering diagnostic tests, etc. I personally think that we

should have training and credentialling in those areas of allopathic medicine we

are interested in practicing, except for drug prescriptions, because frankly,

our pharmacopaea is sufficient.Just some thoughts. But the West currently owns

the medical system and will not give up priveledges easily Soon the Western

system will be bankrupted and they will have to change. We must stand ready.

Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC.-Sent:

Saturday, May 13, 2006 2:35 PMTo:

Chinese Medicine: Re: BillThe problem

is about what can we in CA get in reality. As far as i am concern its ok for us

to do surgery but this will never pass. Chiros are very powerful in CA and they

will never allow an osseous manipulation language to pass. However, in reality

all joint manipulation, except setting of fractures, are soft tissue

manipulations and that includes HVLA. This bill is about increasing the chances

of getting paid for what we do, that is all. Its not about our identity or about

defining our self. If you ask me we need to officially teach in the schools the

entire scope of modern TCM as practiced in China as a first step to change the

scope of this profession. But good luck with the current schools. Alon Marcus

DOMOakland, CA 94609

- Donald

Snow Chinese Medicine Saturday, May

13, 2006 10:09 AM Re: Bill If it's OK for the M.D.'s and Chiros

to use acupuncture, then why can't we use joint mobilization? Do they own that

description and if so, why don't we own acupuncture? I apparently need some

educating here. Thanks for your patience.

Don Snow, DAOM - Donald Snow Saturday,

May 13, 2006 12:38 AM Chinese Medicine

Re: Bill Just say Tuina, that should cover it.

Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac. - Alon

Marcus DOM Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM To:

Chinese Medicine Re: Bill I have

just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CA LAcs. For

those that think this reduces our scope because it does not include joint

mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength of chiros in CA we will

never be able to include it in our scop, in writing However, the words manual

therapy and myofascial release in our scope only supports our scope. Manual

therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by

Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a good bill

Oakland, CA 94609

-

Chinese Medicine

Friday, May 12, 2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying

acupuncture points I would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction by

Shudo Denmai is probably the best writing about acupuncture I've ever

seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1 >

Thu May 11, 2006 7:48am(PDT) > Re: Dispersing and

tonifying acupuncture points > > I have found the intro text to Japanese

Meridian Therapy written by Shudo Denmai to be very useful as well. He goes

into very useful ways to separate a channel problem from an organ problem. This

book has a wealth of theory but is really geared toward clinical practice. It

would be helpful to know more about your training style and the type of

pracitioner you plan to become (TCM vs Japanese, etc). Hope it helps. >

> Mike W. Bowser, LAc > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for

TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 To change your email

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May 15, 2006

Don,

There seems to be some confusion. You stated below, " I teach at PCOM and we

teach only what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoral

program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular

because this is not in our scope of practice. "

Several misconceptions come out of your above statement that are in

contradiction with each other. If a bone-setting class was taught in the PCOM

DAOM program, and the school only teaches what is in the scope of practice, how

can this topic be outside our scope of practice? Second, bone setting involves

movement of joints, hence my question about joint movement to begin with. We do

not need to perform a HVLA or spell out adjustment in order to move bones. I

have found that many students lack a clear picture of what we can perform as

well. Even massage therapists are allowed to move things.

Glad you enjoyed your DAOM and hope that many others will pursue this as well.

It is definitely a good idea to get WM training to a higher level as well. That

is one big reason that I am currently attending a DC program.

In summary, I choose to get involved with knowing about our future healthcare

system and am encouraging others to learn about the economics and decisions that

encompass trying to continue with our costly, bloated and ineffective system. I

also think that we need to become political supporters of removing insr/HMO from

the mix. Many of today's alt med professionals (DC,ND, LAc)are seeing a stepped

up attack, both within legislation, as well as by third party payers to exclude

them. Cash is great but many of the 41% of un-insureds cannot afford this. We

need to have options or they will continue to use the expensive ER for routine

things. Take care.

MB

: don83407: Sun,

14 May 2006 19:27:43 -0700Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseI never said it

was outside our scope of practice; you said it. If you actually read my primary

response you will see what I said. I fully agree with you. We are, and should

legally be, primary care physicians within the medical system. That's why I

went the extra 10 yards and earned the Doctorate degree. I try not only to

" talk the talk, but to walk the walk. " It was not an easy degree, nor was it

cheap. It was a real doctorate. If you'll notice. I practiced Western

medicine for 22 years, and not usually under the supervision of an M.D. I've

performed appendectomies, sutured, prescribed medications, admitted patients,

etc. I've been in 3 wars and I've forgotten more western medicine than most

acupuncturists will probably ever learn, except perhaps in a book. Today, I

practice TCM and I integrate WM when necessary, I order labs, xrays, and request

(and usually get) MRI's and other costly diagnostics because I know the system

and I teach my patients how to use the system. I am not under any HMOs or

Managed Care, I fired ASHP two years ago for, I believe, cheating me. I have a

cash only practice and am relatively successful. I own or co-own two

corporations and both are actually making money. Yes, I hate the current

system because we have so much to offer. We do not have the lobby money

necessary to compete with either the Chiros or the allopaths because we have so

many competing acupuncture associations none are making any real money. Those

that are well funded allow allopaths and Chiros in memberships and then we find

those organizations no longer really represent us. I am not totally ignorant of

what is going on out there. Like you, I resent it and I'm frustrated. But

until WE get together on the SAME sheet, we will stay fragmented. That's the

only answer I have. I suggest that everyone get the doctorate, then they have

no more excuses because our doctorate is essentially 2 more years of full time

education than theirs. Everyone seems to want to get the licensing names

changed to DOM, OMD, etc. But then that's not really a doctorate degree, is it?

We also get a heck of a lot of hours in Western medicine (I know that because

that's what I teach). They get almost no hours in our medicine. The laws were

written by them, for them. So the only way to change it is through your and my

patient base. My patients get relief and it's usually the only place they

received it. Most come to me years AFTER Western medicine and Chiro has failed

them. Frankly, when they get the relief many are mad as hell because they have

been told the " Grand Lie " the nobody can help them. " You're incurable, etc, etc,

ad nauseum,.... " These folks vote..and THEY might can change the system. I

don't need somebody who has no idea where I come from or where I've been asking

me a silly sarcastic question, " Can you move joints? " Thanks for the soapbox.

Respectfully, Dr. Donald

J. Snow, Jr., D.A.O.M., M.P.H., M.S.T.O.M., L.Ac., Dipl. Ac.

CPT, MS, USA (Ret.)-mike BowserSunday,

May 14, 2006 7:32 AM: RE:

Re: BillDon,First question. Can you move joints? Then why do you assume

that manipulation of a joint is outside your scope of practice? If you are not

using a HVLA thrust or falsely advertising adjustments? You make an excellent

point which is why our profession needs to get involved with future creation of

a single payer, universal coverage system. IMO we have been witness to a

fleecing of Americans and small businesses by the insr/HMO industry and the

current medical system. People are being forced to wait for critical events to

seek out care (recent study showed more ER visits) either by bank account or

HMO. There is no way that suddenly our population will all decide to choose CM,

there are too many logistical problems with that as well as payment issues.

However, we should be included with making decisions on the future system

though, and included as a primary physician (nothing less). It saddens me to

hear many confused practitioners who have an emotional response simply out of

fear or limitation for a certain business model. The patient's needs are not

considered in all of this dialogue nor is the future of our profession. Those

who can and will change are those who will survive. Take care and sorry about

the rant. BTW, CA has universal payer legislation that has made it out of

committee and still needs to be voted on by the legislature. Go CA!MBTo:

Chinese Medicine: don83407: Sat, 13

May 2006 14:58:29 -0700Re: BillI teach at PCOM and we teach only

what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a

course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not

in our scope of practice. It seems only reasonable to teach scope of practice

because it would be illegal to practice the full scope in the US. I was a

physician assistant in the military and was trained to prescribe, perform some

minor surgerys, etc. Believe me, general, non-specialty western medicine is

extremely easy to practice though allopaths like to make the public think it is

difficult. But look at military medicine where you have Corpsmen and medics