Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow

May 16, 2006

Dr. Snow/Colleagues:

I assume the Miriam you refer to is Miriam Lee. I often see her referred to

as Miriam; is this how she preferred to be called? Do you know her

personally? Regardless, in such a context as this, might not " Dr. Lee " be

more respectful and professional?

As for the content of what you report Dr. Young saying, that Dr. Lee only

trained for three days before writing her book, I will leave that for the

others (perhaps her publisher, Bob Flaws?) to address. But someone who was

so beloved by and committed to her patients - and who did so much to enable

our profession in California - surely deserves a modicum of respect.

very sincerely,

Nora Madden

Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> Yes! My training is directly under Dr. Young who is the footstep and

> primary disciple of Master Dong. He also was one who trained Miriam in

> Taiwan (who he says only trained for 3 days before writing her book).

>

May 17, 2006

Dear Nora,

I never new Miriam Lee, but there are some at PCOM (San Diego) who

have. As far as what to call her. I assume Miriam Lee is OK as that

is how she signed her book.

As far as I can tell, she did not earn a doctorate and didn't refer

to herself as one. Although for some reason there are many in our

field who refer to themselves as doctor without actually earning

one. Many go to other states to get licensing titles thinking that

makes them a doctor, without actually earning one.

I didn't mean to be disrespectful, for she did much for our

profession. However, if you know her earned title, I'd be more than

happy to use it.

Respectfully,

Dr. Donald J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac.

Chinese Medicine , " Nora Madden "

<noraneedles wrote:

>

> Dr. Snow/Colleagues:

>

> I assume the Miriam you refer to is Miriam Lee. I often see her

referred to

> as Miriam; is this how she preferred to be called? Do you know her

> personally? Regardless, in such a context as this, might not " Dr.

Lee " be

> more respectful and professional?

>

> As for the content of what you report Dr. Young saying, that Dr.

Lee only

> trained for three days before writing her book, I will leave that

for the

> others (perhaps her publisher, Bob Flaws?) to address. But someone

who was

> so beloved by and committed to her patients - and who did so much

to enable

> our profession in California - surely deserves a modicum of respect.

>

> very sincerely,

> Nora Madden

>

> Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> > Yes! My training is directly under Dr. Young who is the

footstep and

> > primary disciple of Master Dong. He also was one who trained

Miriam in

> > Taiwan (who he says only trained for 3 days before writing her

book).

> >

>

May 17, 2006

Miriam had an OMD from SF collage of acupuncture

Oakland, CA 94609

-

daomsnow

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, May 16, 2006 11:35 PM

Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow

Dear Nora,

I never new Miriam Lee, but there are some at PCOM (San Diego) who

have. As far as what to call her. I assume Miriam Lee is OK as that

is how she signed her book.

As far as I can tell, she did not earn a doctorate and didn't refer

to herself as one. Although for some reason there are many in our

field who refer to themselves as doctor without actually earning

one. Many go to other states to get licensing titles thinking that

makes them a doctor, without actually earning one.

I didn't mean to be disrespectful, for she did much for our

profession. However, if you know her earned title, I'd be more than

happy to use it.

Respectfully,

Dr. Donald J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac.

Chinese Medicine , " Nora Madden "

<noraneedles wrote:

>

> Dr. Snow/Colleagues:

>

> I assume the Miriam you refer to is Miriam Lee. I often see her

referred to

> as Miriam; is this how she preferred to be called? Do you know her

> personally? Regardless, in such a context as this, might not " Dr.

Lee " be

> more respectful and professional?

>

> As for the content of what you report Dr. Young saying, that Dr.

Lee only

> trained for three days before writing her book, I will leave that

for the

> others (perhaps her publisher, Bob Flaws?) to address. But someone

who was

> so beloved by and committed to her patients - and who did so much

to enable

> our profession in California - surely deserves a modicum of respect.

>

> very sincerely,

> Nora Madden

>

> Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> > Yes! My training is directly under Dr. Young who is the

footstep and

> > primary disciple of Master Dong. He also was one who trained

Miriam in

> > Taiwan (who he says only trained for 3 days before writing her

book).

> >

>

May 17, 2006

That was a 2 year degree and was unaccredited. It is supposedly illegal to use

that title. The OMD was less education than today's California Master's student

presently recieves. It was approved CA though. But if one tried to use it in,

sat New York, they would be jailed. Point taken.

Dr. Snow, DAOM

-

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:22 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow

Miriam had an OMD from SF collage of acupuncture

Oakland, CA 94609

-

daomsnow

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, May 16, 2006 11:35 PM

Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow

Dear Nora,

I never new Miriam Lee, but there are some at PCOM (San Diego) who

have. As far as what to call her. I assume Miriam Lee is OK as that

is how she signed her book.

As far as I can tell, she did not earn a doctorate and didn't refer

to herself as one. Although for some reason there are many in our

field who refer to themselves as doctor without actually earning

one. Many go to other states to get licensing titles thinking that

makes them a doctor, without actually earning one.

I didn't mean to be disrespectful, for she did much for our

profession. However, if you know her earned title, I'd be more than

happy to use it.

Respectfully,

Dr. Donald J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac.

Chinese Medicine , " Nora Madden "

<noraneedles wrote:

>

> Dr. Snow/Colleagues:

>

> I assume the Miriam you refer to is Miriam Lee. I often see her

referred to

> as Miriam; is this how she preferred to be called? Do you know her

> personally? Regardless, in such a context as this, might not " Dr.

Lee " be

> more respectful and professional?

>

> As for the content of what you report Dr. Young saying, that Dr.

Lee only

> trained for three days before writing her book, I will leave that

for the

> others (perhaps her publisher, Bob Flaws?) to address. But someone

who was

> so beloved by and committed to her patients - and who did so much

to enable

> our profession in California - surely deserves a modicum of respect.

>

> very sincerely,

> Nora Madden

>

> Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> > Yes! My training is directly under Dr. Young who is the

footstep and

> > primary disciple of Master Dong. He also was one who trained

Miriam in

> > Taiwan (who he says only trained for 3 days before writing her

book).

> >

>

May 17, 2006

The OMD is as useless and new DAOM, neither one is regionally accredited and

outside our little world is not recognized as anything more than a paper mill.

The OMD degree was what the available degree at that time. I think the world was

a little different than most of the new graduate understand. My DOM is the same

type of useless paper so i am not trying to just dis others.

Oakland, CA 94609

-

Donald Snow

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 9:20 AM

Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow

That was a 2 year degree and was unaccredited. It is supposedly illegal to

use that title. The OMD was less education than today's California Master's

student presently recieves. It was approved CA though. But if one tried to use

it in, sat New York, they would be jailed. Point taken.

Dr. Snow, DAOM

-

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:22 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow

Miriam had an OMD from SF collage of acupuncture

Oakland, CA 94609

-

daomsnow

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, May 16, 2006 11:35 PM

Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow

Dear Nora,

I never new Miriam Lee, but there are some at PCOM (San Diego) who

have. As far as what to call her. I assume Miriam Lee is OK as that

is how she signed her book.

As far as I can tell, she did not earn a doctorate and didn't refer

to herself as one. Although for some reason there are many in our

field who refer to themselves as doctor without actually earning

one. Many go to other states to get licensing titles thinking that

makes them a doctor, without actually earning one.

I didn't mean to be disrespectful, for she did much for our

profession. However, if you know her earned title, I'd be more than

happy to use it.

Respectfully,

Dr. Donald J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac.

Chinese Medicine , " Nora Madden "

<noraneedles wrote:

>

> Dr. Snow/Colleagues:

>

> I assume the Miriam you refer to is Miriam Lee. I often see her

referred to

> as Miriam; is this how she preferred to be called? Do you know her

> personally? Regardless, in such a context as this, might not " Dr.

Lee " be

> more respectful and professional?

>

> As for the content of what you report Dr. Young saying, that Dr.

Lee only

> trained for three days before writing her book, I will leave that

for the

> others (perhaps her publisher, Bob Flaws?) to address. But someone

who was

> so beloved by and committed to her patients - and who did so much

to enable

> our profession in California - surely deserves a modicum of respect.

>

> very sincerely,

> Nora Madden

>

> Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> > Yes! My training is directly under Dr. Young who is the

footstep and

> > primary disciple of Master Dong. He also was one who trained

Miriam in

> > Taiwan (who he says only trained for 3 days before writing her

book).

> >

>

May 17, 2006

Alon,

I've heard through the grapevine that the DAOM may become a

required degree in California within five years. Almost certainly,

to teach in California schools, it will be necessary. I am not too

happy to be in my 50's with a more than full time practice plus

teaching position to think about going back to school again.

On May 17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, wrote:

> The OMD is as useless and new DAOM, neither one is regionally

> accredited and outside our little world is not recognized as

> anything more than a paper mill.

> The OMD degree was what the available degree at that time. I think

> the world was a little different than most of the new graduate

> understand. My DOM is the same type of useless paper so i am not

> trying to just dis others.

>

May 17, 2006

If this was to come with regional accreditation i would feel ok about it. As is

its all political

Oakland, CA 94609

-

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:47 PM

Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow

Alon,

I've heard through the grapevine that the DAOM may become a

required degree in California within five years. Almost certainly,

to teach in California schools, it will be necessary. I am not too

happy to be in my 50's with a more than full time practice plus

teaching position to think about going back to school again.

On May 17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, wrote:

> The OMD is as useless and new DAOM, neither one is regionally

> accredited and outside our little world is not recognized as

> anything more than a paper mill.

> The OMD degree was what the available degree at that time. I think

> the world was a little different than most of the new graduate

> understand. My DOM is the same type of useless paper so i am not

> trying to just dis others.

>

May 17, 2006

I don't believe that it can be a requirement to anyone currently practicing

to go back to school to earn a doctorate. If anyone has any example in

other professions to prove me wrong, please do. Every time I've voiced

concern over this scenario, I've been calmed down with the response, " You'll

be 'grand-fatherered in'. "

_____

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev

Rosenberg

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:47 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow

Alon,

I've heard through the grapevine that the DAOM may become a

required degree in California within five years. Almost certainly,

to teach in California schools, it will be necessary. I am not too

happy to be in my 50's with a more than full time practice plus

teaching position to think about going back to school again.

On May 17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, wrote:

> The OMD is as useless and new DAOM, neither one is regionally

> accredited and outside our little world is not recognized as

> anything more than a paper mill.

> The OMD degree was what the available degree at that time. I think

> the world was a little different than most of the new graduate

> understand. My DOM is the same type of useless paper so i am not

> trying to just dis others.

>

May 17, 2006

While it was decided not to grandfather LAc a title with the term " doctor " in

CA, previous licensees should still be allowed to practice. Now that does not

mean that additional ceu would not be in order for early licensees. Aaah, the

fun of politics. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

: bbeale: Wed,

17 May 2006 14:08:29 -0700RE: Tong's points specific order

response by Dr. SnowI don't believe that it can be a requirement to anyone

currently practicingto go back to school to earn a doctorate. If anyone has

any example inother professions to prove me wrong, please do. Every time I've

voicedconcern over this scenario, I've been calmed down with the response,

" You'llbe 'grand-fatherered in'. " _____

Chinese Medicine [Chinese Medicine\

@] On Behalf Of Z'evRosenbergWednesday, May 17, 2006 1:47

PM: Re: Tong's

points specific order response by Dr. SnowAlon, I've heard through the

grapevine that the DAOM may become a required degree in California within five

years. Almost certainly, to teach in California schools, it will be necessary.

I am not too happy to be in my 50's with a more than full time practice plus

teaching position to think about going back to school again.On May

17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, wrote:> The OMD is as useless and new

DAOM, neither one is regionally > accredited and outside our little world is

not recognized as > anything more than a paper mill.> The OMD degree was what

the available degree at that time. I think > the world was a little different

than most of the new graduate > understand. My DOM is the same type of useless

paper so i am not > trying to just dis others.>> [Non-text

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May 18, 2006

You are right. Grandfathering simply means you can continue to practice with

the license and degree you have. But all new students from a certain date must

have the doctorate. Grandfathering does not mean that all of the older

certified and Master degree practitioners suddenly get to call themselves the

new doctorate title without the training. See the pharm D degree. The old

pharmacists are still allowed to practice, but they still use their master

degree title. It will be hard to compete in this society when all around you

the practitioners are doctors when you are still a master. Who would you

choose, not knowing skill levels?

That's one of the reason's I did the program. I saw the writing on the wall.

Credibility is game. Not just within our little world, because there's a big

world out there.

Thanks,

Dr. Don Snow, DAOM

-

Barb

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 2:11 PM

Chinese Medicine

RE: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow

I don't believe that it can be a requirement to anyone currently practicing

to go back to school to earn a doctorate. If anyone has any example in

other professions to prove me wrong, please do. Every time I've voiced

concern over this scenario, I've been calmed down with the response, " You'll

be 'grand-fatherered in'. "

_____

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev

Rosenberg

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:47 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow

Alon,

I've heard through the grapevine that the DAOM may become a

required degree in California within five years. Almost certainly,

to teach in California schools, it will be necessary. I am not too

happy to be in my 50's with a more than full time practice plus

teaching position to think about going back to school again.

On May 17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, wrote:

> The OMD is as useless and new DAOM, neither one is regionally

> accredited and outside our little world is not recognized as

> anything more than a paper mill.

> The OMD degree was what the available degree at that time. I think

> the world was a little different than most of the new graduate

> understand. My DOM is the same type of useless paper so i am not

> trying to just dis others.

>

May 18, 2006

I'm in my 50's and I went. Some were older than me. I'll be paying student

loans til I'm 80. Good thing dead people can't continue to pay

Dr. Don Snow, DAOM

-

Barb

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 2:11 PM

Chinese Medicine

RE: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow

I don't believe that it can be a requirement to anyone currently practicing

to go back to school to earn a doctorate. If anyone has any example in

other professions to prove me wrong, please do. Every time I've voiced

concern over this scenario, I've been calmed down with the response, " You'll

be 'grand-fatherered in'. "

_____

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev

Rosenberg

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:47 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Tong's points specific order response by Dr. Snow

Alon,

I've heard through the grapevine that the DAOM may become a

required degree in California within five years. Almost certainly,

to teach in California schools, it will be necessary. I am not too

happy to be in my 50's with a more than full time practice plus

teaching position to think about going back to school again.

On May 17, 2006, at 1:40 PM, wrote:

> The OMD is as useless and new DAOM, neither one is regionally

> accredited and outside our little world is not recognized as

> anything more than a paper mill.

> The OMD degree was what the available degree at that time. I think

> the world was a little different than most of the new graduate

> understand. My DOM is the same type of useless paper so i am not

> trying to just dis others.

>

May 22, 2006

Knowing how things work, Mariam could hae taken 3 days of courses from Young

and spent years in Taiwan under someone else. Who know? However, she had a

scad of clinical experience and was a doctor even if she never graduated from

high school. There are many ways of paying for the degree/title.

David Molony

In a message dated 5/17/06 11:05:19 AM, alonmarcus writes:

> Don

> I was not there and can only repeat what i heard while training with Miriam.

> All i can say is that there seems to be a lot of power plays in the Tong

> style acupuncture community. If it was dr young that trained her that may be

why

> her teachings were very similar to his, at least as he taught in the classes

> i took with him.

>

" The Art of being wise is the Art of knowing what to overlook. "

William James

David Molony

101 Bridge Street

Catasauqua, PA 18032

Phone (610)264-2755

Fax (610) 264-7292

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May 24, 2006

AAOM reseached this inthe 90's, and it seems the DO's developed a program

where oldies had to have their education (CEU's included) gone over and if they

did not have specifics, take additional courses/programs to make up additional

hours, sometimes adding up to 300-500 hours over a few years. Most people

needed only a hndred hours or so to update thier emergency medicine knowledge.

David

In a message dated 5/17/06 5:09:34 PM, bbeale writes:

> I don't believe that it can be a requirement to anyone currently practicing

> to go back to school to earn a doctorate. If anyone has any example in

> other professions to prove me wrong, please do. Every time I've voiced

> concern over this scenario, I've been calmed down with the response, " You'll

> be 'grand-fatherered in'. "