Guest guest Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 Don, I understand and looked into DO programs but was uninspired by the drugs and surgery and nothing local (I would lose op to spend time with my daughter). I am doing a chiro program to add to my knowledge base and also increase my scope in helping patients. Few MD know how to read an xray and I happen to think this is something we should know. As for the manipulation, that issue would be a non-issue for a DC/LAc. If you look at those practitioners from Asia many have a lot more WM and I would consider to be closer to MD or DC depending upon their training. I hope that our profession can model future education more in line with the DC or ND models. It makes sense. MBMike W. Bowser, L Ac : don83407: Mon, 15 May 2006 07:11:51 -0700Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseThere are no contradictions. It was taught out of a book without any hands-on training. That's why it was so unpopular.In my class, we had an M.D. that had already gone through the MSTOM and he also went through the DAOM with us. Another of our classmates in the DAOM program in now taking the MCATs. He now wants to get the M.D. If I was 30 or 40 again, that's what I would do, I wouldn't waste time with Chiro school. I never saw them set a broken bone either, and I believe AOM to be a more powerful and complete medicine than Chiro. Chiro is basically tuina. By the way, I've set many bones and casted may patients while in the military. I didn't particularly like ortho and that's not an area I'm interested in. However, if others are interested in it, there should be a certification system that trains us so we can do it. If and when medicare adds us to their system, that's when we'll automatically be accepted in all insurance. I don't see that happening any time soon. Thanks, Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac-mike BowserMonday, May 15, 2006 6:59 AMTo: Chinese Medicine: RE: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseDon,There seems to be some confusion. You stated below, " I teach at PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. " Several misconceptions come out of your above statement that are in contradiction with each other. If a bone-setting class was taught in the PCOM DAOM program, and the school only teaches what is in the scope of practice, how can this topic be outside our scope of practice? Second, bone setting involves movement of joints, hence my question about joint movement to begin with. We do not need to perform a HVLA or spell out adjustment in order to move bones. I have found that many students lack a clear picture of what we can perform as well. Even massage therapists are allowed to move things. Glad you enjoyed your DAOM and hope that many others will pursue this as well. It is definitely a good idea to get WM training to a higher level as well. That is one big reason that I am currently attending a DC program. In summary, I choose to get involved with knowing about our future healthcare system and am encouraging others to learn about the economics and decisions that encompass trying to continue with our costly, bloated and ineffective system. I also think that we need to become political supporters of removing insr/HMO from the mix. Many of today's alt med professionals (DC,ND, LAc)are seeing a stepped up attack, both within legislation, as well as by third party payers to exclude them. Cash is great but many of the 41% of un-insureds cannot afford this. We need to have options or they will continue to use the expensive ER for routine things. Take care.MB: don83407: Sun, 14 May 2006 19:27:43 -0700Re: Re: TCM - Bill: a ResponseI never said it was outside our scope of practice; you said it. If you actually read my primary response you will see what I said. I fully agree with you. We are, and should legally be, primary care physicians within the medical system. That's why I went the extra 10 yards and earned the Doctorate degree. I try not only to " talk the talk, but to walk the walk. " It was not an easy degree, nor was it cheap. It was a real doctorate. If you'll notice. I practiced Western medicine for 22 years, and not usually under the supervision of an M.D. I've performed appendectomies, sutured, prescribed medications, admitted patients, etc. I've been in 3 wars and I've forgotten more western medicine than most acupuncturists will probably ever learn, except perhaps in a book. Today, I practice TCM and I integrate WM when necessary, I order labs, xrays, and request (and usually get) MRI's and other costly diagnostics because I know the system and I teach my patients how to use the system. I am not under any HMOs or Managed Care, I fired ASHP two years ago for, I believe, cheating me I have a cash only practice and am relatively successful. I own or co-own two corporations and both are actually making money. Yes, I hate the current system because we have so much to offer. We do not have the lobby money necessary to compete with either the Chiros or the allopaths because we have so many competing acupuncture associations none are making any real money. Those that are well funded allow allopaths and Chiros in memberships and then we find those organizations no longer really represent us. I am not totally ignorant of what is going on out there. Like you, I resent it and I'm frustrated. But until WE get together on the SAME sheet, we will stay fragmented. That's the only answer I have. I suggest that everyone get the doctorate, then they have no more excuses because our doctorate is essentially 2 more years of full time education than theirs. Everyone seems to want to get the licensing names changed to DOM, OMD, etc. But then that's not really a doctorate degree, is it? We also get a heck of a lot of hours in Western medicine (I know that because that's what I teach). They get almost no hours in our medicine. The laws were written by them, for them. So the only way to change it is through your and my patient base. My patients get relief and it's usually the only place they received it. Most come to me years AFTER Western medicine and Chiro has failed them. Frankly, when they get the relief many are mad as hell because they have been told the " Grand Lie " the nobody can help them. " You're incurable, etc, etc, ad nauseum,.... " These folks vote..and THEY might can change the system. I don't need somebody who has no idea where I come from or where I've been asking me a silly sarcastic question, " Can you move joints? " Thanks for the soapbox. Respectfully, Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr., D.A.O.M., M.PH., M.S.T.O.M., L.Ac., Dipl. Ac. CPT, MS, USA (Ret.)-mike BowserSunday, May 14, 2006 7:32 AM: RE: Re: BillDon,First question. Can you move joints? Then why do you assume that manipulation of a joint is outside your scope of practice? If you are not using a HVLA thrust or falsely advertising adjustments? You make an excellent point which is why our profession needs to get involved with future creation of a single payer, universal coverage system. IMO we have been witness to a fleecing of Americans and small businesses by the insr/HMO industry and the current medical system. People are being forced to wait for critical events to seek out care (recent study showed more ER visits) either by bank account or HMO. There is no way that suddenly our population will all decide to choose CM, there are too many logistical problems with that as well as payment issues. However, we should be included with making decisions on the future system though, and included as a primary physician (nothing less). It saddens me to hear many confused practitioners who have an emotional response simply out of fear or limitation for a certain business model. The patient's needs are not considered in all of this dialogue nor is the future of our profession. Those who can and will change are those who will survive. Take care and sorry about the rant. BTW, CA has universal payer legislation that has made it out of committee and still needs to be voted on by the legislature. Go CA!MBTo: Chinese Medicine: don83407: Sat, 13 May 2006 14:58:29 -0700Re: BillI teach at PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. It seems only reasonable to teach scope of practice because it would be illegal to practice the full scope in the US. I was a physician assistant in the military and was trained to prescribe, perform some minor surgerys, etc. Believe me, general, non-specialty western medicine is extremely easy to practice though allopaths like to make the public think it is difficult. But look at military medicine where you have Corpsmen and medics with three months of training safely prescribing drugs (limited prescription priviledges), ordering diagnostic tests, etc. I personally think that we should have training and credentialling in those areas of allopathic medicine we are interested in practicing, except for drug prescriptions, because frankly, our pharmacopaea is sufficient.Just some thoughts. But the West currently owns the medical system and will not give up priveledges easily Soon the Western system will be bankrupted and they will have to change. We must stand ready. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC.-Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 2:35 PMTo: Chinese Medicine: Re: BillThe problem is about what can we in CA get in reality. As far as i am concern its ok for us to do surgery but this will never pass. Chiros are very powerful in CA and they will never allow an osseous manipulation language to pass. However, in reality all joint manipulation, except setting of fractures, are soft tissue manipulations and that includes HVLA. This bill is about increasing the chances of getting paid for what we do, that is all. Its not about our identity or about defining our self. If you ask me we need to officially teach in the schools the entire scope of modern TCM as practiced in China as a first step to change the scope of this profession. But good luck with the current schools. Alon Marcus DOMOakland, CA 94609 - Donald Snow Chinese Medicine Saturday, May 13, 2006 10:09 AM Re: Bill If it's OK for the M.D.'s and Chiros to use acupuncture, then why can't we use joint mobilization? Do they own that description and if so, why don't we own acupuncture? I apparently need some educating here. Thanks for your patience. Don Snow, DAOM - Donald Snow Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:38 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Bill Just say Tuina, that should cover it. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac. - Alon Marcus DOM Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM To: Chinese Medicine Re: Bill I have just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CA LAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because it does not include joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength of chiros in CA we will never be able to include it in our scop, in writing However, the words manual therapy and myofascial release in our scope only supports our scope. Manual therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a good bill Oakland, CA 94609 wwwintegrativehealthmedicine.com - @com Friday, May 12, 2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points I would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction by Shudo Denmai is probably the best writing about acupuncture I've ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1 > Thu May 11, 2006 7:48am(PDT) > Re: Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points > > I have found the intro text to Japanese Meridian Therapy written by Shudo Denmai to be very useful as well. He goes into very useful ways to separate a channel problem from an organ problem. This book has a wealth of theory but is really geared toward clinical practice. It would be helpful to know more about your training style and the type of pracitioner you plan to become (TCM vs Japanese, etc). Hope it helps. > > Mike W. Bowser, LAc > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2006 Report Share Posted May 16, 2006 I believe the DAOM programs to be complete and with more than enough western medicine. We practice AOM or intergrated medicine, which is essentially what the DAOM is all about. That's why I no longer practice western medicine. We do one or the other. When I talk of integrative medicine, I talk of using western diagnostics and some limited western therapeutical equipment. For instance, I use the Electroacuscope and ElectroMyopulse in my practice. I have adapted these two FDA approved Class II Medical equipment into our AOM theory and my results with these machines is phenomenal compared to the results allopaths get with these same pieces of equipment. However, if your prime motivating role is to be able to bill more insurance, I guess Chiro is OK. But my prime motive is to heal the patient, and generally, if you get the results and they know you do, they will come up with the funds to pay you even if they have to borrow it. I also offer CareCredit in my clinic. Yeah, I wish more insurance paid us, but it's not worth learning another medicine. Especially a medicine that I think is inferior to AOM. If Chiros had such great medicine, why are they tripping over themselves trying to get acupuncture in their scope of practice? That being said, I think I have had to refer 2 people to Chiros. But usually, I get many patients that have been failed by them and AOM works. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. - mike Bowser Monday, May 15, 2006 3:14 PM Chinese Medicine RE: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response Don, I understand and looked into DO programs but was uninspired by the drugs and surgery and nothing local (I would lose op to spend time with my daughter). I am doing a chiro program to add to my knowledge base and also increase my scope in helping patients. Few MD know how to read an xray and I happen to think this is something we should know. As for the manipulation, that issue would be a non-issue for a DC/LAc. If you look at those practitioners from Asia many have a lot more WM and I would consider to be closer to MD or DC depending upon their training. I hope that our profession can model future education more in line with the DC or ND models It makes sense. MBMike W. Bowser, L Ac : don83407: Mon, 15 May 2006 07:11:51 -0700Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseThere are no contradictions. It was taught out of a book without any hands-on training. That's why it was so unpopular.In my class, we had an M.D. that had already gone through the MSTOM and he also went through the DAOM with us. Another of our classmates in the DAOM program in now taking the MCATs. He now wants to get the M.D. If I was 30 or 40 again, that's what I would do, I wouldn't waste time with Chiro school. I never saw them set a broken bone either, and I believe AOM to be a more powerful and complete medicine than Chiro. Chiro is basically tuina. By the way, I've set many bones and casted may patients while in the military. I didn't particularly like ortho and that's not an area I'm interested in. However, if others are interested in it, there should be a certification system that trains us so we can do it. If and when medicare adds us to their system, that's when we'll automatically be accepted in all insurance. I don't see that happening any time soon. Thanks, Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac-mike BowserMonday, May 15, 2006 6:59 AMTo: Chinese Medicine: RE: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseDon,There seems to be some confusion. You stated below, " I teach at PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. " Several misconceptions come out of your above statement that are in contradiction with each other. If a bone-setting class was taught in the PCOM DAOM program, and the school only teaches what is in the scope of practice, how can this topic be outside our scope of practice? Second, bone setting involves movement of joints, hence my question about joint movement to begin with. We do not need to perform a HVLA or spell out adjustment in order to move bones. I have found that many students lack a clear picture of what we can perform as well. Even massage therapists are allowed to move things. Glad you enjoyed your DAOM and hope that many others will pursue this as well. It is definitely a good idea to get WM training to a higher level as well. That is one big reason that I am currently attending a DC program. In summary, I choose to get involved with knowing about our future healthcare system and am encouraging others to learn about the economics and decisions that encompass trying to continue with our costly, bloated and ineffective system. I also think that we need to become political supporters of removing insr/HMO from the mix. Many of today's alt med professionals (DC,ND, LAc)are seeing a stepped up attack, both within legislation, as well as by third party payers to exclude them. Cash is great but many of the 41% of un-insureds cannot afford this. We need to have options or they will continue to use the expensive ER for routine things. Take care.MB: don83407: Sun, 14 May 2006 19:27:43 -0700Re: Re: TCM - Bill: a ResponseI never said it was outside our scope of practice; you said it. If you actually read my primary response you will see what I said. I fully agree with you. We are, and should legally be, primary care physicians within the medical system. That's why I went the extra 10 yards and earned the Doctorate degree. I try not only to " talk the talk, but to walk the walk. " It was not an easy degree, nor was it cheap. It was a real doctorate. If you'll notice. I practiced Western medicine for 22 years, and not usually under the supervision of an M.D. I've performed appendectomies, sutured, prescribed medications, admitted patients, etc. I've been in 3 wars and I've forgotten more western medicine than most acupuncturists will probably ever learn, except perhaps in a book. Today, I practice TCM and I integrate WM when necessary, I order labs, xrays, and request (and usually get) MRI's and other costly diagnostics because I know the system and I teach my patients how to use the system. I am not under any HMOs or Managed Care, I fired ASHP two years ago for, I believe, cheating me I have a cash only practice and am relatively successful. I own or co-own two corporations and both are actually making money. Yes, I hate the current system because we have so much to offer. We do not have the lobby money necessary to compete with either the Chiros or the allopaths because we have so many competing acupuncture associations none are making any real money. Those that are well funded allow allopaths and Chiros in memberships and then we find those organizations no longer really represent us. I am not totally ignorant of what is going on out there. Like you, I resent it and I'm frustrated. But until WE get together on the SAME sheet, we will stay fragmented. That's the only answer I have. I suggest that everyone get the doctorate, then they have no more excuses because our doctorate is essentially 2 more years of full time education than theirs. Everyone seems to want to get the licensing names changed to DOM, OMD, etc. But then that's not really a doctorate degree, is it? We also get a heck of a lot of hours in Western medicine (I know that because that's what I teach). They get almost no hours in our medicine. The laws were written by them, for them. So the only way to change it is through your and my patient base. My patients get relief and it's usually the only place they received it. Most come to me years AFTER Western medicine and Chiro has failed them. Frankly, when they get the relief many are mad as hell because they have been told the " Grand Lie " the nobody can help them. " You're incurable, etc, etc, ad nauseum,.... " These folks vote..and THEY might can change the system. I don't need somebody who has no idea where I come from or where I've been asking me a silly sarcastic question, " Can you move joints? " Thanks for the soapbox. Respectfully, Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr., D.A.O.M., M.PH., M.S.T.O.M, L.Ac., Dipl. Ac. CPT, MS, USA (Ret.)-mike BowserSunday, May 14, 2006 7:32 AM: RE: Re: BillDon,First question. Can you move joints? Then why do you assume that manipulation of a joint is outside your scope of practice? If you are not using a HVLA thrust or falsely advertising adjustments? You make an excellent point which is why our profession needs to get involved with future creation of a single payer, universal coverage system. IMO we have been witness to a fleecing of Americans and small businesses by the insr/HMO industry and the current medical system. People are being forced to wait for critical events to seek out care (recent study showed more ER visits) either by bank account or HMO. There is no way that suddenly our population will all decide to choose CM, there are too many logistical problems with that as well as payment issues. However, we should be included with making decisions on the future system though, and included as a primary physician (nothing less). It saddens me to hear many confused practitioners who have an emotional response simply out of fear or limitation for a certain business model. The patient's needs are not considered in all of this dialogue nor is the future of our profession. Those who can and will change are those who will survive. Take care and sorry about the rant. BTW, CA has universal payer legislation that has made it out of committee and still needs to be voted on by the legislature. Go CA!MBTo: Chinese Medicine: don83407: Sat, 13 May 2006 14:58:29 -0700Re: BillI teach at PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. It seems only reasonable to teach scope of practice because it would be illegal to practice the full scope in the US. I was a physician assistant in the military and was trained to prescribe, perform some minor surgerys, etc. Believe me, general, non-specialty western medicine is extremely easy to practice though allopaths like to make the public think it is difficult. But look at military medicine where you have Corpsmen and medics with three months of training safely prescribing drugs (limited prescription priviledges), ordering diagnostic tests, etc. I personally think that we should have training and credentialling in those areas of allopathic medicine we are interested in practicing, except for drug prescriptions, because frankly, our pharmacopaea is sufficient.Just some thoughts. But the West currently owns the medical system and will not give up priveledges easily Soon the Western system will be bankrupted and they will have to change. We must stand ready. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC.-Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 2:35 PMTo: Chinese Medicine: Re: BillThe problem is about what can we in CA get in reality As far as i am concern its ok for us to do surgery but this will never pass. Chiros are very powerful in CA and they will never allow an osseous manipulation language to pass. However, in reality all joint manipulation, except setting of fractures, are soft tissue manipulations and that includes HVLA. This bill is about increasing the chances of getting paid for what we do, that is all. Its not about our identity or about defining our self. If you ask me we need to officially teach in the schools the entire scope of modern TCM as practiced in China as a first step to change the scope of this profession. But good luck with the current schools. Alon Marcus DOMOakland, CA 94609 - Donald Snow Chinese Medicine Saturday, May 13, 2006 10:09 AM Re: Bill If it's OK for the M.D.'s and Chiros to use acupuncture, then why can't we use joint mobilization? Do they own that description and if so, why don't we own acupuncture? I apparently need some educating here. Thanks for your patience. Don Snow, DAOM - Donald Snow Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:38 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Bill Just say Tuina, that should cover it. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac. - Alon Marcus DOM Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM To: Chinese Medicine Re: Bill I have just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CA LAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because it does not include joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength of chiros in CA we will never be able to include it in our scop, in writing However, the words manual therapy and myofascial release in our scope only supports our scope. Manual therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a good bill Oakland, CA 94609 wwwintegrativehealthmedicine.com - @com Friday, May 12, 2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points I would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction by Shudo Denmai is probably the best writing about acupuncture I've ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1 > Thu May 11, 2006 7:48am(PDT) > Re: Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points > > I have found the intro text to Japanese Meridian Therapy written by Shudo Denmai to be very useful as well. He goes into very useful ways to separate a channel problem from an organ problem. This book has a wealth of theory but is really geared toward clinical practice. It would be helpful to know more about your training style and the type of pracitioner you plan to become (TCM vs Japanese, etc). Hope it helps. > > Mike W. Bowser, LAc > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2006 Report Share Posted May 16, 2006 Don, A good practitioner is good but a great one is great. Knowledge is power and I desire to practice a more complete AOM, that includes bone setting (at least joint manipulations). To this I want strong skills in xray and labs to be able to better understand and refer patients appropriately. Sounds like your DAOM but there was no such program several years ago. There still are no DAOM programs east of the rockies. You seem mighty presumptuous about personal economics. Do you know how many mfg plants have closed in the last five years? Most people are mortgaged to the max and even the so- called middle class are unable to afford to pay for healthcare services. A whopping 41% of Americans no longer carry any healthcare coverage and this includes catastrophic. This problem is much larger then you can imagine and truly borders on crisis. Some legislators want to mandate coverage much like auto insr. They fail to see that it is due to employers wages and a largely unregulated insr industry that is creating this mess often with no mention of cost containment. It is a fantasy to expect that AOM will have much of an impact or that cash-only practices will continue unchanged. Healthcare is a right not an option. People will wait to go to the ER (recent study has shown an increase here) and this will continue to drain our govt. We need to get educated about this problem so we can help with solutions. I will leave you with one final thought. The chiro is a strong group and they are following the same methods as the MD did with both Osteopathy or homeopathy. The latter is considered the practice of medicine in CA, go figure. It is about competition not efficacy. Also consider that in those states where a DC can practice with minimal training, there will be problems for the AOM profession as it dilutes our professional ops. Many times, we are not even considered the real professionals. We have both an image problem as well as scope issues. There are good DC just like there are good LAc. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : don83407: Mon, 15 May 2006 21:57:58 -0700Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseI believe the DAOM programs to be complete and with more than enough western medicine. We practice AOM or intergrated medicine, which is essentially what the DAOM is all about. That's why I no longer practice western medicine. We do one or the other. When I talk of integrative medicine, I talk of using western diagnostics and some limited western therapeutical equipment. For instance, I use the Electroacuscope and ElectroMyopulse in my practice. I have adapted these two FDA approved Class II Medical equipment into our AOM theory and my results with these machines is phenomenal compared to the results allopaths get with these same pieces of equipment. However, if your prime motivating role is to be able to bill more insurance, I guess Chiro is OK. But my prime motive is to heal the patient, and generally, if you get the results and they know you do, they will come up with the funds to pay you even if they have to borrow it. I also offer CareCredit in my clinic. Yeah, I wish more insurance paid us, but it's not worth learning another medicine. Especially a medicine that I think is inferior to AOM. If Chiros had such great medicine, why are they tripping over themselves trying to get acupuncture in their scope of practice? That being said, I think I have had to refer 2 people to Chiros. But usually, I get many patients that have been failed by them and AOM works.Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.-mike BowserMonday, May 15, 2006 3:14 PM: RE: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseDon,I understand and looked into DO programs but was uninspired by the drugs and surgery and nothing local (I would lose op to spend time with my daughter). I am doing a chiro program to add to my knowledge base and also increase my scope in helping patients. Few MD know how to read an xray and I happen to think this is something we should know. As for the manipulation, that issue would be a non-issue for a DC/LAc. If you look at those practitioners from Asia many have a lot more WM and I would consider to be closer to MD or DC depending upon their training. I hope that our profession can model future education more in line with the DC or ND models It makes sense. MBMike W. Bowser, L AcTo: Chinese Medicine: don83407: Mon, 15 May 2006 07:11:51 -0700Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseThere are no contradictions. It was taught out of a book without any hands-on training. That's why it was so unpopular.In my class, we had an M.D. that had already gone through the MSTOM and he also went through the DAOM with us. Another of our classmates in the DAOM program in now taking the MCATs. He now wants to get the M.D. If I was 30 or 40 again, that's what I would do, I wouldn't waste time with Chiro school. I never saw them set a broken bone either, and I believe AOM to be a more powerful and complete medicine than Chiro. Chiro is basically tuina. By the way, I've set many bones and casted may patients while in the military. I didn't particularly like ortho and that's not an area I'm interested in. However, if others are interested in it, there should be a certification system that trains us so we can do it. If and when medicare adds us to their system, that's when we'll automatically be accepted in all insurance. I don't see that happening any time soon. Thanks, Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac-mike BowserMonday, May 15, 2006 6:59 AMTo: Chinese Medicine: RE: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseDon,There seems to be some confusion. You stated below, " I teach at PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. " Several misconceptions come out of your above statement that are in contradiction with each other. If a bone-setting class was taught in the PCOM DAOM program, and the school only teaches what is in the scope of practice, how can this topic be outside our scope of practice? Second, bone setting involves movement of joints, hence my question about joint movement to begin with. We do not need to perform a HVLA or spell out adjustment in order to move bones. I have found that many students lack a clear picture of what we can perform as well. Even massage therapists are allowed to move things. Glad you enjoyed your DAOM and hope that many others will pursue this as well. It is definitely a good idea to get WM training to a higher level as well. That is one big reason that I am currently attending a DC program. In summary, I choose to get involved with knowing about our future healthcare system and am encouraging others to learn about the economics and decisions that encompass trying to continue with our costly, bloated and ineffective system. I also think that we need to become political supporters of removing insr/HMO from the mix. Many of today's alt med professionals (DC,ND, LAc)are seeing a stepped up attack, both within legislation, as well as by third party payers to exclude them. Cash is great but many of the 41% of un-insureds cannot afford this. We need to have options or they will continue to use the expensive ER for routine things. Take care.MB: don83407: Sun, 14 May 2006 19:27:43 -0700Re: Re: TCM - Bill: a ResponseI never said it was outside our scope of practice; you said it. If you actually read my primary response you will see what I said. I fully agree with you. We are, and should legally be, primary care physicians within the medical system. That's why I went the extra 10 yards and earned the Doctorate degree. I try not only to " talk the talk, but to walk the walk. " It was not an easy degree, nor was it cheap. It was a real doctorate. If you'll notice. I practiced Western medicine for 22 years, and not usually under the supervision of an M.D. I've performed appendectomies, sutured, prescribed medications, admitted patients, etc. I've been in 3 wars and I've forgotten more western medicine than most acupuncturists will probably ever learn, except perhaps in a book. Today, I practice TCM and I integrate WM when necessary, I order labs, xrays, and request (and usually get) MRI's and other costly diagnostics because I know the system and I teach my patients how to use the system. I am not under any HMOs or Managed Care, I fired ASHP two years ago for, I believe, cheating me I have a cash only practice and am relatively successful. I own or co-own two corporations and both are actually making money. Yes, I hate the current system because we have so much to offer. We do not have the lobby money necessary to compete with either the Chiros or the allopaths because we have so many competing acupuncture associations none are making any real money. Those that are well funded allow allopaths and Chiros in memberships and then we find those organizations no longer really represent us. I am not totally ignorant of what is going on out there. Like you, I resent it and I'm frustrated. But until WE get together on the SAME sheet, we will stay fragmented. That's the only answer I have. I suggest that everyone get the doctorate, then they have no more excuses because our doctorate is essentially 2 more years of full time education than theirs. Everyone seems to want to get the licensing names changed to DOM, OMD, etc. But then that's not really a doctorate degree, is it? We also get a heck of a lot of hours in Western medicine (I know that because that's what I teach). They get almost no hours in our medicine. The laws were written by them, for them. So the only way to change it is through your and my patient base. My patients get relief and it's usually the only place they received it. Most come to me years AFTER Western medicine and Chiro has failed them. Frankly, when they get the relief many are mad as hell because they have been told the " Grand Lie " the nobody can help them. " You're incurable, etc, etc, ad nauseum,.... " These folks vote..and THEY might can change the system. I don't need somebody who has no idea where I come from or where I've been asking me a silly sarcastic question, " Can you move joints? " Thanks for the soapbox. Respectfully, Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr., D.A.O.M., M.PH., M.S.T.O.M, L.Ac., Dipl. Ac. CPT, MS, USA (Ret.)-mike BowserSunday, May 14, 2006 7:32 AM: RE: Re: BillDon,First question. Can you move joints? Then why do you assume that manipulation of a joint is outside your scope of practice? If you are not using a HVLA thrust or falsely advertising adjustments? You make an excellent point which is why our profession needs to get involved with future creation of a single payer, universal coverage system. IMO we have been witness to a fleecing of Americans and small businesses by the insr/HMO industry and the current medical system. People are being forced to wait for critical events to seek out care (recent study showed more ER visits) either by bank account or HMO. There is no way that suddenly our population will all decide to choose CM, there are too many logistical problems with that as well as payment issues. However, we should be included with making decisions on the future system though, and included as a primary physician (nothing less). It saddens me to hear many confused practitioners who have an emotional response simply out of fear or limitation for a certain business model. The patient's needs are not considered in all of this dialogue nor is the future of our profession. Those who can and will change are those who will survive. Take care and sorry about the rant. BTW, CA has universal payer legislation that has made it out of committee and still needs to be voted on by the legislature. Go CA!MBTo: Chinese Medicine: don83407: Sat, 13 May 2006 14:58:29 -0700Re: BillI teach at PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. It seems only reasonable to teach scope of practice because it would be illegal to practice the full scope in the US. I was a physician assistant in the military and was trained to prescribe, perform some minor surgerys, etc. Believe me, general, non-specialty western medicine is extremely easy to practice though allopaths like to make the public think it is difficult. But look at military medicine where you have Corpsmen and medics with three months of training safely prescribing drugs (limited prescription priviledges), ordering diagnostic tests, etc. I personally think that we should have training and credentialling in those areas of allopathic medicine we are interested in practicing, except for drug prescriptions, because frankly, our pharmacopaea is sufficient.Just some thoughts. But the West currently owns the medical system and will not give up priveledges easily Soon the Western system will be bankrupted and they will have to change. We must stand ready. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC.-Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 2:35 PMTo: Chinese Medicine: Re: BillThe problem is about what can we in CA get in reality As far as i am concern its ok for us to do surgery but this will never pass. Chiros are very powerful in CA and they will never allow an osseous manipulation language to pass. However, in reality all joint manipulation, except setting of fractures, are soft tissue manipulations and that includes HVLA. This bill is about increasing the chances of getting paid for what we do, that is all. Its not about our identity or about defining our self. If you ask me we need to officially teach in the schools the entire scope of modern TCM as practiced in China as a first step to change the scope of this profession. But good luck with the current schools. Alon Marcus DOMOakland, CA 94609 - Donald Snow Chinese Medicine Saturday, May 13, 2006 10:09 AM Re: Bill If it's OK for the M.D.'s and Chiros to use acupuncture, then why can't we use joint mobilization? Do they own that description and if so, why don't we own acupuncture? I apparently need some educating here. Thanks for your patience. Don Snow, DAOM - Donald Snow Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:38 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Bill Just say Tuina, that should cover it. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac. - Alon Marcus DOM Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM To: Chinese Medicine Re: Bill I have just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CA LAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because it does not include joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength of chiros in CA we will never be able to include it in our scop, in writing However, the words manual therapy and myofascial release in our scope only supports our scope. Manual therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a good bill Oakland, CA 94609 wwwintegrativehealthmedicine.com - @com Friday, May 12, 2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points I would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction by Shudo Denmai is probably the best writing about acupuncture I've ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1 > Thu May 11, 2006 7:48am(PDT) > Re: Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points > > I have found the intro text to Japanese Meridian Therapy written by Shudo Denmai to be very useful as well. He goes into very useful ways to separate a channel problem from an organ problem. This book has a wealth of theory but is really geared toward clinical practice. It would be helpful to know more about your training style and the type of pracitioner you plan to become (TCM vs Japanese, etc). Hope it helps. > > Mike W. Bowser, LAc > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. 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Guest guest Posted May 16, 2006 Report Share Posted May 16, 2006 But yet these same folks are able to buy fine cars and they find the money to go out to dinner often, but homes, detail their cars, etc. Yet they don't want to pay for their health care. I've seen many who would rather die than pay for health care, even though they can. Health care is not a right. Nor is it in our Bill of Rights or constitution. I want people who care about their health. I am not presumptuous, I'm realistic. This is life. Our country has become one in which folks demand " rights. " They used to assume responsiblity for themselves. You can call me anything you want. But I earned the right to speak my mind and I fought for yours. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC CPT, USA (Ret.) - mike Bowser Tuesday, May 16, 2006 5:58 AM Chinese Medicine RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response Don, A good practitioner is good but a great one is great. Knowledge is power and I desire to practice a more complete AOM, that includes bone setting (at least joint manipulations). To this I want strong skills in xray and labs to be able to better understand and refer patients appropriately. Sounds like your DAOM but there was no such program several years ago. There still are no DAOM programs east of the rockies. You seem mighty presumptuous about personal economics. Do you know how many mfg plants have closed in the last five years? Most people are mortgaged to the max and even the so- called middle class are unable to afford to pay for healthcare services. A whopping 41% of Americans no longer carry any healthcare coverage and this includes catastrophic. This problem is much larger then you can imagine and truly borders on crisis. Some legislators want to mandate coverage much like auto insr. They fail to see that it is due to employers wages and a largely unregulated insr industry that is creating this mess often with no mention of cost containment. It is a fantasy to expect that AOM will have much of an impact or that cash-only practices will continue unchanged. Healthcare is a right not an option. People will wait to go to the ER (recent study has shown an increase here) and this will continue to drain our govt. We need to get educated about this problem so we can help with solutions. I will leave you with one final thought. The chiro is a strong group and they are following the same methods as the MD did with both Osteopathy or homeopathy. The latter is considered the practice of medicine in CA, go figure. It is about competition not efficacy. Also consider that in those states where a DC can practice with minimal training, there will be problems for the AOM profession as it dilutes our professional ops. Many times, we are not even considered the real professionals. We have both an image problem as well as scope issues. There are good DC just like there are good LAc. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : don83407: Mon, 15 May 2006 21:57:58 -0700Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseI believe the DAOM programs to be complete and with more than enough western medicine. We practice AOM or intergrated medicine, which is essentially what the DAOM is all about. That's why I no longer practice western medicine. We do one or the other. When I talk of integrative medicine, I talk of using western diagnostics and some limited western therapeutical equipment. For instance, I use the Electroacuscope and ElectroMyopulse in my practice. I have adapted these two FDA approved Class II Medical equipment into our AOM theory and my results with these machines is phenomenal compared to the results allopaths get with these same pieces of equipment. However, if your prime motivating role is to be able to bill more insurance, I guess Chiro is OK. But my prime motive is to heal the patient, and generally, if you get the results and they know you do, they will come up with the funds to pay you even if they have to borrow it. I also offer CareCredit in my clinic. Yeah, I wish more insurance paid us, but it's not worth learning another medicine. Especially a medicine that I think is inferior to AOM. If Chiros had such great medicine, why are they tripping over themselves trying to get acupuncture in their scope of practice? That being said, I think I have had to refer 2 people to Chiros. But usually, I get many patients that have been failed by them and AOM works.Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.-mike BowserMonday, May 15, 2006 3:14 PM: RE: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseDon,I understand and looked into DO programs but was uninspired by the drugs and surgery and nothing local (I would lose op to spend time with my daughter). I am doing a chiro program to add to my knowledge base and also increase my scope in helping patients. Few MD know how to read an xray and I happen to think this is something we should know. As for the manipulation, that issue would be a non-issue for a DC/LAc. If you look at those practitioners from Asia many have a lot more WM and I would consider to be closer to MD or DC depending upon their training. I hope that our profession can model future education more in line with the DC or ND models It makes sense. MBMike W. Bowser, L AcTo: Chinese Medicine: don83407: Mon, 15 May 2006 07:11:51 -0700Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseThere are no contradictions. It was taught out of a book without any hands-on training. That's why it was so unpopular.In my class, we had an M.D. that had already gone through the MSTOM and he also went through the DAOM with us. Another of our classmates in the DAOM program in now taking the MCATs. He now wants to get the M.D. If I was 30 or 40 again, that's what I would do, I wouldn't waste time with Chiro school. I never saw them set a broken bone either, and I believe AOM to be a more powerful and complete medicine than Chiro. Chiro is basically tuina. By the way, I've set many bones and casted may patients while in the military. I didn't particularly like ortho and that's not an area I'm interested in. However, if others are interested in it, there should be a certification system that trains us so we can do it. If and when medicare adds us to their system, that's when we'll automatically be accepted in all insurance. I don't see that happening any time soon. Thanks, Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac-mike BowserMonday, May 15, 2006 6:59 AMTo: Chinese Medicine: RE: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseDon,There seems to be some confusion. You stated below, " I teach at PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. " Several misconceptions come out of your above statement that are in contradiction with each other. If a bone-setting class was taught in the PCOM DAOM program, and the school only teaches what is in the scope of practice, how can this topic be outside our scope of practice? Second, bone setting involves movement of joints, hence my question about joint movement to begin with. We do not need to perform a HVLA or spell out adjustment in order to move bones. I have found that many students lack a clear picture of what we can perform as well. Even massage therapists are allowed to move things. Glad you enjoyed your DAOM and hope that many others will pursue this as well. It is definitely a good idea to get WM training to a higher level as well. That is one big reason that I am currently attending a DC program. In summary, I choose to get involved with knowing about our future healthcare system and am encouraging others to learn about the economics and decisions that encompass trying to continue with our costly, bloated and ineffective system. I also think that we need to become political supporters of removing insr/HMO from the mix. Many of today's alt med professionals (DC,ND, LAc)are seeing a stepped up attack, both within legislation, as well as by third party payers to exclude them. Cash is great but many of the 41% of un-insureds cannot afford this. We need to have options or they will continue to use the expensive ER for routine things. Take care.MB: don83407: Sun, 14 May 2006 19:27:43 -0700Re: Re: TCM - Bill: a ResponseI never said it was outside our scope of practice; you said it. If you actually read my primary response you will see what I said. I fully agree with you. We are, and should legally be, primary care physicians within the medical system. That's why I went the extra 10 yards and earned the Doctorate degree. I try not only to " talk the talk, but to walk the walk. " It was not an easy degree, nor was it cheap. It was a real doctorate. If you'll notice. I practiced Western medicine for 22 years, and not usually under the supervision of an M.D. I've performed appendectomies, sutured, prescribed medications, admitted patients, etc. I've been in 3 wars and I've forgotten more western medicine than most acupuncturists will probably ever learn, except perhaps in a book. Today, I practice TCM and I integrate WM when necessary, I order labs, xrays, and request (and usually get) MRI's and other costly diagnostics because I know the system and I teach my patients how to use the system. I am not under any HMOs or Managed Care, I fired ASHP two years ago for, I believe, cheating me I have a cash only practice and am relatively successful. I own or co-own two corporations and both are actually making money. Yes, I hate the current system because we have so much to offer. We do not have the lobby money necessary to compete with either the Chiros or the allopaths because we have so many competing acupuncture associations none are making any real money. Those that are well funded allow allopaths and Chiros in memberships and then we find those organizations no longer really represent us. I am not totally ignorant of what is going on out there. Like you, I resent it and I'm frustrated. But until WE get together on the SAME sheet, we will stay fragmented. That's the only answer I have. I suggest that everyone get the doctorate, then they have no more excuses because our doctorate is essentially 2 more years of full time education than theirs. Everyone seems to want to get the licensing names changed to DOM, OMD, etc. But then that's not really a doctorate degree, is it? We also get a heck of a lot of hours in Western medicine (I know that because that's what I teach). They get almost no hours in our medicine. The laws were written by them, for them. So the only way to change it is through your and my patient base. My patients get relief and it's usually the only place they received it. Most come to me years AFTER Western medicine and Chiro has failed them. Frankly, when they get the relief many are mad as hell because they have been told the " Grand Lie " the nobody can help them. " You're incurable, etc, etc, ad nauseum,.... " These folks vote..and THEY might can change the system. I don't need somebody who has no idea where I come from or where I've been asking me a silly sarcastic question, " Can you move joints? " Thanks for the soapbox. Respectfully, Dr Donald J. Snow, Jr., D.A.O.M., M.PH., M.S.T.O.M, L.Ac., Dipl. Ac. CPT, MS, USA (Ret.)-mike BowserSunday, May 14, 2006 7:32 AM: RE: Re: BillDon,First question. Can you move joints? Then why do you assume that manipulation of a joint is outside your scope of practice? If you are not using a HVLA thrust or falsely advertising adjustments? You make an excellent point which is why our profession needs to get involved with future creation of a single payer, universal coverage system. IMO we have been witness to a fleecing of Americans and small businesses by the insr/HMO industry and the current medical system. People are being forced to wait for critical events to seek out care (recent study showed more ER visits) either by bank account or HMO. There is no way that suddenly our population will all decide to choose CM, there are too many logistical problems with that as well as payment issues. However, we should be included with making decisions on the future system though, and included as a primary physician (nothing less). It saddens me to hear many confused practitioners who have an emotional response simply out of fear or limitation for a certain business model. The patient's needs are not considered in all of this dialogue nor is the future of our profession. Those who can and will change are those who will survive. Take care and sorry about the rant. BTW, CA has universal payer legislation that has made it out of committee and still needs to be voted on by the legislature. Go CA!MBTo: Chinese Medicine: don83407: Sat, 13 May 2006 14:58:29 -0700Re: BillI teach at PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. It seems only reasonable to teach scope of practice because it would be illegal to practice the full scope in the US. I was a physician assistant in the military and was trained to prescribe, perform some minor surgerys, etc. Believe me, general, non-specialty western medicine is extremely easy to practice though allopaths like to make the public think it is difficult. But look at military medicine where you have Corpsmen and medics with three months of training safely prescribing drugs (limited prescription priviledges), ordering diagnostic tests, etc. I personally think that we should have training and credentialling in those areas of allopathic medicine we are interested in practicing, except for drug prescriptions, because frankly, our pharmacopaea is sufficient.Just some thoughts. But the West currently owns the medical system and will not give up priveledges easily Soon the Western system will be bankrupted and they will have to change We must stand ready. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC.-Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 2:35 PMTo: Chinese Medicine: Re: BillThe problem is about what can we in CA get in reality As far as i am concern its ok for us to do surgery but this will never pass. Chiros are very powerful in CA and they will never allow an osseous manipulation language to pass. However, in reality all joint manipulation, except setting of fractures, are soft tissue manipulations and that includes HVLA. This bill is about increasing the chances of getting paid for what we do, that is all. Its not about our identity or about defining our self. If you ask me we need to officially teach in the schools the entire scope of modern TCM as practiced in China as a first step to change the scope of this profession. But good luck with the current schools. Alon Marcus DOMOakland, CA 94609 - Donald Snow Chinese Medicine Saturday, May 13, 2006 10:09 AM Re: Bill If it's OK for the M.D.'s and Chiros to use acupuncture, then why can't we use joint mobilization? Do they own that description and if so, why don't we own acupuncture? I apparently need some educating here. Thanks for your patience. Don Snow, DAOM - Donald Snow Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:38 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Bill Just say Tuina, that should cover it. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac. - Alon Marcus DOM Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM To: Chinese Medicine Re: Bill I have just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CA LAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because it does not include joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength of chiros in CA we will never be able to include it in our scop, in writing However, the words manual therapy and myofascial release in our scope only supports our scope. Manual therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a good bill Oakland, CA 94609 wwwintegrativehealthmedicine.com - @com Friday, May 12, 2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points I would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction by Shudo Denmai is probably the best writing about acupuncture I've ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1 > Thu May 11, 2006 7:48am(PDT) > Re: Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points > > I have found the intro text to Japanese Meridian Therapy written by Shudo Denmai to be very useful as well. He goes into very useful ways to separate a channel problem from an organ problem. This book has a wealth of theory but is really geared toward clinical practice. It would be helpful to know more about your training style and the type of pracitioner you plan to become (TCM vs Japanese, etc). Hope it helps. > > Mike W. Bowser, LAc > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2006 Report Share Posted May 16, 2006 Don, This is not the reality for most Americans (family incomes are nationally down $1500/household and the lowest in years). Healthcare is a right and a responsibility both morally and ethically which is why it is often silly to hear discussions about healthcare spending as an economic business. I want people to care for their health as well but am finding that our current system has taken too much capital from people (making them broke) and then adding to their overall debt burden. It is implied in the Bill of Rights under the section of pursuit of Happiness. One cannot be happy if they are ill. Additionally you have a right to Medicare if poor as well as many other programs. I agree that people need to take more responsibility for their health but then again pharma and medical reps want the masses to remain stupified while they take all their money. It is all interconnected (much like Ted's " Web that has no weaver " ). My point here was about making changes to a broken system, not trying to punish the poor or have them take out another mortgage. Your service to our country was never an issue. Later. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac -------------- > Chinese Medicine > don83407 > Tue, 16 May 2006 06:23:08 -0700 > Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response > > But yet these same folks are able to buy fine cars and they find the money to go out to dinner often, but homes, detail their cars, etc. Yet they don't want to pay for their health care. I've seen many who would rather die than pay for health care, even though they can. Health care is not a right. Nor is it in our Bill of Rights or constitution. I want people who care about their health. I am not presumptuous, I'm realistic. This is life. Our country has become one in which folks demand " rights. " They used to assume responsiblity for themselves. You can call me anything you want. But I earned the right to speak my mind and I fought for yours. > Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC > CPT, USA (Ret.) > - > mike Bowser > Tuesday, May 16, 2006 5:58 AM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response > Don, > A good practitioner is good but a great one is great. Knowledge is power and I desire to practice a more complete AOM, that includes bone setting (at least joint manipulations). To this I want strong skills in xray and labs to be able to better understand and refer patients appropriately. Sounds like your DAOM but there was no such program several years ago. There still are no DAOM programs east of the rockies. > You seem mighty presumptuous about personal economics. Do you know how many mfg plants have closed in the last five years? Most people are mortgaged to the max and even the so- called middle class are unable to afford to pay for healthcare services. A whopping 41% of Americans no longer carry any healthcare coverage and this includes catastrophic. This problem is much larger then you can imagine and truly borders on crisis. Some legislators want to mandate coverage much like auto insr. They fail to see that it is due to employers wages and a largely unregulated insr industry that is creating this mess often with no mention of cost containment. It is a fantasy to expect that AOM will have much of an impact or that cash-only practices will continue unchanged. > Healthcare is a right not an option. People will wait to go to the ER (recent study has shown an increase here) and this will continue to drain our govt. We need to get educated about this problem so we can help with solutions. > I will leave you with one final thought. The chiro is a strong group and they are following the same methods as the MD did with both Osteopathy or homeopathy. The latter is considered the practice of medicine in CA, go figure. It is about competition not efficacy. Also consider that in those states where a DC can practice with minimal training, there will be problems for the AOM profession as it dilutes our professional ops. Many times, we are not even considered the real professionals. We have both an image problem as well as scope issues. > There are good DC just like there are good LAc. > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > : don83407: Mon, 15 May 2006 21:57:58 -0700Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseI believe the DAOM programs to be complete and with more than enough western medicine. We practice AOM or intergrated medicine, which is essentially what the DAOM is all about. That's why I no longer practice western medicine. We do one or the other. When I talk of integrative medicine, I talk of using western diagnostics and some limited western therapeutical equipment. For instance, I use the Electroacuscope and ElectroMyopulse in my practice. I have adapted these two FDA approved Class II Medical equipment into our AOM theory and my results with these machines is phenomenal compared to the results allopaths get with these same pieces of equipment. However, if your prime motivating role is to be able to bill more insurance, I guess Chiro is OK. But my prime motive is to heal the patient, and generally, if you get the results and they know you do, they will come up with the funds to pay you even if they have to borrow it. I also offer CareCredit in my clinic. Yeah, I wish more insurance paid us, but it's not worth learning another medicine. Especially a medicine that I think is inferior to AOM. If Chiros had such great medicine, why are they tripping over themselves trying to get acupuncture in their scope of practice? That being said, I think I have had to refer 2 people to Chiros. But usually, I get many patients that have been failed by them and AOM works.Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.-mike BowserMonday, May 15, 2006 3:14 PM: RE: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseDon,I understand and looked into DO programs but was uninspired by the drugs and surgery and nothing local (I would lose op to spend time with my daughter). I am doing a chiro program to add to my knowledge base and also increase my scope in helping patients. Few MD know how to read an xray and I happen to think this is something we should know. As for the manipulation, that issue would be a non-issue for a DC/LAc. If you look at those practitioners from Asia many have a lot more WM and I would consider to be closer to MD or DC depending upon their training. I hope that our profession can model future education more in line with the DC or ND models It makes sense. MBMike W. Bowser, L AcTo: Chinese Medicine: don83407: Mon, 15 May 2006 07:11:51 -0700Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseThere are no contradictions. It was taught out of a book without any hands-on training. That's why it was so unpopular.In my class, we had an M.D. that had already gone through the MSTOM and he also went through the DAOM with us. Another of our classmates in the DAOM program in now taking the MCATs. He now wants to get the M.D. If I was 30 or 40 again, that's what I would do, I wouldn't waste time with Chiro school. I never saw them set a broken bone either, and I believe AOM to be a more powerful and complete medicine than Chiro. Chiro is basically tuina. By the way, I've set many bones and casted may patients while in the military. I didn't particularly like ortho and that's not an area I'm interested in. However, if others are interested in it, there should be a certification system that trains us so we can do it. If and when medicare adds us to their system, that's when we'll automatically be accepted in all insurance. I don't see that happening any time soon. Thanks, Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac-mike BowserMonday, May 15, 2006 6:59 AMTo: Chinese Medicine: RE: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseDon,There seems to be some confusion. You stated below, " I teach at PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. " Several misconceptions come out of your above statement that are in contradiction with each other. If a bone-setting class was taught in the PCOM DAOM program, and the school only teaches what is in the scope of practice, how can this topic be outside our scope of practice? Second, bone setting involves movement of joints, hence my question about joint movement to begin with. We do not need to perform a HVLA or spell out adjustment in order to move bones. I have found that many students lack a clear picture of what we can perform as well. Even massage therapists are allowed to move things. Glad you enjoyed your DAOM and hope that many others will pursue this as well. It is definitely a good idea to get WM training to a higher level as well. That is one big reason that I am currently attending a DC program. In summary, I choose to get involved with knowing about our future healthcare system and am encouraging others to learn about the economics and decisions that encompass trying to continue with our costly, bloated and ineffective system. I also think that we need to become political supporters of removing insr/HMO from the mix. Many of today's alt med professionals (DC,ND, LAc)are seeing a stepped up attack, both within legislation, as well as by third party payers to exclude them. Cash is great but many of the 41% of un-insureds cannot afford this. We need to have options or they will continue to use the expensive ER for routine things. Take care.MB: don83407: Sun, 14 May 2006 19:27:43 -0700Re: Re: TCM - Bill: a ResponseI never said it was outside our scope of practice; you said it. If you actually read my primary response you will see what I said. I fully agree with you. We are, and should legally be, primary care physicians within the medical system. That's why I went the extra 10 yards and earned the Doctorate degree. I try not only to " talk the talk, but to walk the walk. " It was not an easy degree, nor was it cheap. It was a real doctorate. If you'll notice. I practiced Western medicine for 22 years, and not usually under the supervision of an M.D. I've performed appendectomies, sutured, prescribed medications, admitted patients, etc. I've been in 3 wars and I've forgotten more western medicine than most acupuncturists will probably ever learn, except perhaps in a book. Today, I practice TCM and I integrate WM when necessary, I order labs, xrays, and request (and usually get) MRI's and other costly diagnostics because I know the system and I teach my patients how to use the system. I am not under any HMOs or Managed Care, I fired ASHP two years ago for, I believe, cheating me I have a cash only practice and am relatively successful. I own or co-own two corporations and both are actually making money. Yes, I hate the current system because we have so much to offer. We do not have the lobby money necessary to compete with either the Chiros or the allopaths because we have so many competing acupuncture associations none are making any real money. Those that are well funded allow allopaths and Chiros in memberships and then we find those organizations no longer really represent us. I am not totally ignorant of what is going on out there. Like you, I resent it and I'm frustrated. But until WE get together on the SAME sheet, we will stay fragmented. That's the only answer I have. I suggest that everyone get the doctorate, then they have no more excuses because our doctorate is essentially 2 more years of full time education than theirs. Everyone seems to want to get the licensing names changed to DOM, OMD, etc. But then that's not really a doctorate degree, is it? We also get a heck of a lot of hours in Western medicine (I know that because that's what I teach). They get almost no hours in our medicine. The laws were written by them, for them. So the only way to change it is through your and my patient base. My patients get relief and it's usually the only place they received it. Most come to me years AFTER Western medicine and Chiro has failed them. Frankly, when they get the relief many are mad as hell because they have been told the " Grand Lie " the nobody can help them. " You're incurable, etc, etc, ad nauseum,.... " These folks vote..and THEY might can change the system. I don't need somebody who has no idea where I come from or where I've been asking me a silly sarcastic question, " Can you move joints? " Thanks for the soapbox. Respectfully, Dr Donald J. Snow, Jr., D.A.O.M., M.PH., M.S.T.O.M, L.Ac., Dipl. Ac. CPT, MS, USA (Ret.)-mike BowserSunday, May 14, 2006 7:32 AM: RE: Re: BillDon,First question. Can you move joints? Then why do you assume that manipulation of a joint is outside your scope of practice? If you are not using a HVLA thrust or falsely advertising adjustments? You make an excellent point which is why our profession needs to get involved with future creation of a single payer, universal coverage system. IMO we have been witness to a fleecing of Americans and small businesses by the insr/HMO industry and the current medical system. People are being forced to wait for critical events to seek out care (recent study showed more ER visits) either by bank account or HMO. There is no way that suddenly our population will all decide to choose CM, there are too many logistical problems with that as well as payment issues. However, we should be included with making decisions on the future system though, and included as a primary physician (nothing less). It saddens me to hear many confused practitioners who have an emotional response simply out of fear or limitation for a certain business model. The patient's needs are not considered in all of this dialogue nor is the future of our profession. Those who can and will change are those who will survive. Take care and sorry about the rant. BTW, CA has universal payer legislation that has made it out of committee and still needs to be voted on by the legislature. Go CA!MBTo: Chinese Medicine: don83407: Sat, 13 May 2006 14:58:29 -0700Re: BillI teach at PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. It seems only reasonable to teach scope of practice because it would be illegal to practice the full scope in the US. I was a physician assistant in the military and was trained to prescribe, perform some minor surgerys, etc. Believe me, general, non-specialty western medicine is extremely easy to practice though allopaths like to make the public think it is difficult. But look at military medicine where you have Corpsmen and medics with three months of training safely prescribing drugs (limited prescription priviledges), ordering diagnostic tests, etc. I personally think that we should have training and credentialling in those areas of allopathic medicine we are interested in practicing, except for drug prescriptions, because frankly, our pharmacopaea is sufficient.Just some thoughts. But the West currently owns the medical system and will not give up priveledges easily Soon the Western system will be bankrupted and they will have to change We must stand ready. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC.-Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 2:35 PMTo: Chinese Medicine: Re: BillThe problem is about what can we in CA get in reality As far as i am concern its ok for us to do surgery but this will never pass. Chiros are very powerful in CA and they will never allow an osseous manipulation language to pass. However, in reality all joint manipulation, except setting of fractures, are soft tissue manipulations and that includes HVLA. This bill is about increasing the chances of getting paid for what we do, that is all. Its not about our identity or about defining our self. If you ask me we need to officially teach in the schools the entire scope of modern TCM as practiced in China as a first step to change the scope of this profession. But good luck with the current schools. Alon Marcus DOMOakland, CA 94609 - Donald Snow Chinese Medicine Saturday, May 13, 2006 10:09 AM Re: Bill If it's OK for the M.D.'s and Chiros to use acupuncture, then why can't we use joint mobilization? Do they own that description and if so, why don't we own acupuncture? I apparently need some educating here. Thanks for your patience. Don Snow, DAOM - Donald Snow Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:38 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Bill Just say Tuina, that should cover it. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac. - Alon Marcus DOM Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM To: Chinese Medicine Re: Bill I have just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CA LAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because it does not include joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength of chiros in CA we will never be able to include it in our scop, in writing However, the words manual therapy and myofascial release in our scope only supports our scope. Manual therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a good bill Oakland, CA 94609 wwwintegrativehealthmedicine.com - @com Friday, May 12, 2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points I would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction by Shudo Denmai is probably the best writing about acupuncture I've ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1 > Thu May 11, 2006 7:48am(PDT) > Re: Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points > > I have found the intro text to Japanese Meridian Therapy written by Shudo Denmai to be very useful as well. He goes into very useful ways to separate a channel problem from an organ problem. This book has a wealth of theory but is really geared toward clinical practice. It would be helpful to know more about your training style and the type of pracitioner you plan to become (TCM vs Japanese, etc). Hope it helps. > > Mike W. Bowser, LAc > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2006 Report Share Posted May 16, 2006 I'm coming late to the party, but a few points: First. Out of what you pull that $1500 number? Second. I agree with Don. Where is it written that healthcare is a right? Third. It's the pursuit of happiness, not the guarantee of Happiness. Bart Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser Tuesday, May 16, 2006 10:36 AM Chinese Medicine RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response Don, This is not the reality for most Americans (family incomes are nationally down $1500/household and the lowest in years). Healthcare is a right and a responsibility both morally and ethically which is why it is often silly to hear discussions about healthcare spending as an economic business. I want people to care for their health as well but am finding that our current system has taken too much capital from people (making them broke) and then adding to their overall debt burden. It is implied in the Bill of Rights under the section of pursuit of Happiness. One cannot be happy if they are ill. Additionally you have a right to Medicare if poor as well as many other programs. I agree that people need to take more responsibility for their health but then again pharma and medical reps want the masses to remain stupified while they take all their money. It is all interconnected (much like Ted's " Web that has no weaver " ). My point here was about making changes to a broken s! ystem, not trying to punish the poor or have them take out another mortgage. Your service to our country was never an issue. Later. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac -------------- > Chinese Medicine > don83407 > Tue, 16 May 2006 06:23:08 -0700 > Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response > > But yet these same folks are able to buy fine cars and they find the money to go out to dinner often, but homes, detail their cars, etc. Yet they don't want to pay for their health care. I've seen many who would rather die than pay for health care, even though they can. Health care is not a right. Nor is it in our Bill of Rights or constitution. I want people who care about their health. I am not presumptuous, I'm realistic. This is life. Our country has become one in which folks demand " rights. " They used to assume responsiblity for themselves. You can call me anything you want. But I earned the right to speak my mind and I fought for yours. > Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC > CPT, USA (Ret.) > - > mike Bowser > Tuesday, May 16, 2006 5:58 AM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response > Don, > A good practitioner is good but a great one is great. Knowledge is power and I desire to practice a more complete AOM, that includes bone setting (at least joint manipulations). To this I want strong skills in xray and labs to be able to better understand and refer patients appropriately. Sounds like your DAOM but there was no such program several years ago. There still are no DAOM programs east of the rockies. > You seem mighty presumptuous about personal economics. Do you know how many mfg plants have closed in the last five years? Most people are mortgaged to the max and even the so- called middle class are unable to afford to pay for healthcare services. A whopping 41% of Americans no longer carry any healthcare coverage and this includes catastrophic. This problem is much larger then you can imagine and truly borders on crisis. Some legislators want to mandate coverage much like auto insr. They fail to see that it is due to employers wages and a largely unregulated insr industry that is creating this mess often with no mention of cost containment. It is a fantasy to expect that AOM will have much of an impact or that cash-only practices will continue unchanged. > Healthcare is a right not an option. People will wait to go to the ER (recent study has shown an increase here) and this will continue to drain our govt. We need to get educated about this problem so we can help with solutions. > I will leave you with one final thought. The chiro is a strong group and they are following the same methods as the MD did with both Osteopathy or homeopathy. The latter is considered the practice of medicine in CA, go figure. It is about competition not efficacy. Also consider that in those states where a DC can practice with minimal training, there will be problems for the AOM profession as it dilutes our professional ops. Many times, we are not even considered the real professionals. We have both an image problem as well as scope issues. > There are good DC just like there are good LAc. > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > : don83407: Mon, 15 May 2006 21:57:58 -0700Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseI believe the DAOM programs to be complete and with more than enough western medicine. We practice AOM or intergrated medicine, which is essentially what the DAOM is all about. That's why I no longer practice western medicine. We do one or the other. When I talk of integrative medicine, I talk of using western diagnostics and some limited western therapeutical equipment. For instance, I use the Electroacuscope and ElectroMyopulse in my practice. I have adapted these two FDA approved Class II Medical equipment into our AOM theory and my results with these machines is phenomenal compared to the results allopaths get with these same pieces of equipment. However, if your prime motivating role is to be able to bill more insurance, I guess Chiro is OK. But my prime motive is to heal the patient, and generally, if you g! et the results and they know you do, they will come up with the funds to pay you even if they have to borrow it. I also offer CareCredit in my clinic. Yeah, I wish more insurance paid us, but it's not worth learning another medicine. Especially a medicine that I think is inferior to AOM. If Chiros had such great medicine, why are they tripping over themselves trying to get acupuncture in their scope of practice? That being said, I think I have had to refer 2 people to Chiros. But usually, I get many patients that have been failed by them and AOM works.Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.-mike BowserMonday, May 15, 2006 3:14 PM: RE: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseDon,I understand and looked into DO programs but was uninspired by the drugs and surgery and nothing local (I would lose op to spend time with my daughter). I am doing a chiro program to add to my knowledge base and als! o increase my scope in helping patients. Few MD know how to read an x ray and I happen to think this is something we should know. As for the manipulation, that issue would be a non-issue for a DC/LAc. If you look at those practitioners from Asia many have a lot more WM and I would consider to be closer to MD or DC depending upon their training. I hope that our profession can model future education more in line with the DC or ND models It makes sense. MBMike W. Bowser, L AcTo: Chinese Medicine: don83407: Mon, 15 May 2006 07:11:51 -0700Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseThere are no contradictions. It was taught out of a book without any hands-on training. That's why it was so unpopular.In my class, we had an M.D. that had already gone through the MSTOM and he also went through the DAOM with us. Another of our classmates in the DAOM program in now taking the MCATs. He now wants to get the M.D. If I was 30 or 40 again, that's what I would do, I wouldn't waste time with Chiro school. ! I never saw them set a broken bone either, and I believe AOM to be a more powerful and complete medicine than Chiro. Chiro is basically tuina. By the way, I've set many bones and casted may patients while in the military. I didn't particularly like ortho and that's not an area I'm interested in. However, if others are interested in it, there should be a certification system that trains us so we can do it. If and when medicare adds us to their system, that's when we'll automatically be accepted in all insurance. I don't see that happening any time soon. Thanks, Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac-mike BowserMonday, May 15, 2006 6:59 AMTo: Chinese Medicine: RE: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseDon,There seems to be some confusion. You stated below, " I teach at PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. When ! I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which a ppeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. " Several misconceptions come out of your above statement that are in contradiction with each other. If a bone-setting class was taught in the PCOM DAOM program, and the school only teaches what is in the scope of practice, how can this topic be outside our scope of practice? Second, bone setting involves movement of joints, hence my question about joint movement to begin with. We do not need to perform a HVLA or spell out adjustment in order to move bones. I have found that many students lack a clear picture of what we can perform as well. Even massage therapists are allowed to move things. Glad you enjoyed your DAOM and hope that many others will pursue this as well. It is definitely a good idea to get WM training to a higher level as well. That is one big reason that I am currently attending a DC program. In summary, I choose to get involved with knowing about our future healthcare system ! and am encouraging others to learn about the economics and decisions that encompass trying to continue with our costly, bloated and ineffective system. I also think that we need to become political supporters of removing insr/HMO from the mix. Many of today's alt med professionals (DC,ND, LAc)are seeing a stepped up attack, both within legislation, as well as by third party payers to exclude them. Cash is great but many of the 41% of un-insureds cannot afford this. We need to have options or they will continue to use the expensive ER for routine things. Take care.MBTo: Chinese Medicine: don83407: Sun, 14 May 2006 19:27:43 -0700Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseI never said it was outside our scope of practice; you said it. If you actually read my primary response you will see what I said. I fully agree with you. We are, and should legally be, primary care physicians within the medical system. That's why I went the ex! tra 10 yards and earned the Doctorate degree. I try not only to " talk the talk, but to walk the walk. " It was not an easy degree, nor was it cheap. It was a real doctorate. If you'll notice. I practiced Western medicine for 22 years, and not usually under the supervision of an M.D. I've performed appendectomies, sutured, prescribed medications, admitted patients, etc. I've been in 3 wars and I've forgotten more western medicine than most acupuncturists will probably ever learn, except perhaps in a book. Today, I practice TCM and I integrate WM when necessary, I order labs, xrays, and request (and usually get) MRI's and other costly diagnostics because I know the system and I teach my patients how to use the system. I am not under any HMOs or Managed Care, I fired ASHP two years ago for, I believe, cheating me I have a cash only practice and am relatively successful. I own or co-own two corporations and both are actually making money. Yes, I hate the current system because we have so much to offer. We do not have the lobby money! necessary to compete with either the Chiros or the allopaths because we have so many competing acupuncture associations none are making any real money. Those that are well funded allow allopaths and Chiros in memberships and then we find those organizations no longer really represent us. I am not totally ignorant of what is going on out there. Like you, I resent it and I'm frustrated. But until WE get together on the SAME sheet, we will stay fragmented. That's the only answer I have. I suggest that everyone get the doctorate, then they have no more excuses because our doctorate is essentially 2 more years of full time education than theirs. Everyone seems to want to get the licensing names changed to DOM, OMD, etc. But then that's not really a doctorate degree, is it? We also get a heck of a lot of hours in Western medicine (I know that because that's what I teach). They get almost no hours in our medicine. The laws were written by them, for them. So the only w! ay to change it is through your and my patient base. My patients get relief and it's usually the only place they received it. Most come to me years AFTER Western medicine and Chiro has failed them. Frankly, when they get the relief many are mad as hell because they have been told the " Grand Lie " the nobody can help them. " You're incurable, etc, etc, ad nauseum,.... " These folks vote..and THEY might can change the system. I don't need somebody who has no idea where I come from or where I've been asking me a silly sarcastic question, " Can you move joints? " Thanks for the soapbox. Respectfully, Dr Donald J. Snow, Jr., D.A.O.M., M.PH., M.S.T.O.M, L.Ac., Dipl. Ac. CPT, MS, USA (Ret.)-mike BowserSent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 7:32 AMTo: Chinese Medicine: RE: Re: TCM - BillDon,First question. Can you move joints? Then ! why do you assume that manipulation of a joint is outside your scope of practice? If you are not using a HVLA thrust or falsely advertising adjustments? You make an excellent point which is why our profession needs to get involved with future creation of a single payer, universal coverage system. IMO we have been witness to a fleecing of Americans and small businesses by the insr/HMO industry and the current medical system. People are being forced to wait for critical events to seek out care (recent study showed more ER visits) either by bank account or HMO. There is no way that suddenly our population will all decide to choose CM, there are too many logistical problems with that as well as payment issues. However, we should be included with making decisions on the future system though, and included as a primary physician (nothing less). It saddens me to hear many confused practitioners who have an emotional response simply out of fear or limitation for a certain bu! siness model. The patient's needs are not considered in all of this d ialogue nor is the future of our profession. Those who can and will change are those who will survive. Take care and sorry about the rant. BTW, CA has universal payer legislation that has made it out of committee and still needs to be voted on by the legislature. Go CA!MBTo: Chinese Medicine: don83407: Sat, 13 May 2006 14:58:29 -0700Re: BillI teach at PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. It seems only reasonable to teach scope of practice because it would be illegal to practice the full scope in the US. I was a physician assistant in the military and was trained to prescribe, perform some minor surgerys, etc. Believe me, general, non-specialty western medicine is extremely easy to practice though allopaths like to make the public think it! is difficult. But look at military medicine where you have Corpsmen and medics with three months of training safely prescribing drugs (limited prescription priviledges), ordering diagnostic tests, etc. I personally think that we should have training and credentialling in those areas of allopathic medicine we are interested in practicing, except for drug prescriptions, because frankly, our pharmacopaea is sufficient.Just some thoughts. But the West currently owns the medical system and will not give up priveledges easily Soon the Western system will be bankrupted and they will have to change We must stand ready. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC.-Alon Marcus DOMSaturday, May 13, 2006 2:35 PMTo: Chinese Medicine: Re: BillThe problem is about what can we in CA get in reality As far as i am concern its ok for us to do su! rgery but this will never pass. Chiros are very powerful in CA and the y will never allow an osseous manipulation language to pass. However, in reality all joint manipulation, except setting of fractures, are soft tissue manipulations and that includes HVLA. This bill is about increasing the chances of getting paid for what we do, that is all. Its not about our identity or about defining our self. If you ask me we need to officially teach in the schools the entire scope of modern TCM as practiced in China as a first step to change the scope of this profession. But good luck with the current schools. Oakland, CA 94609 ----- Original Message ----- Donald Snow To: Chinese Medicine Saturday, May 13, 2006 10:09 AM Re: Bill If it's OK for the M.D.'s and Chiros to use acupuncture, then why can't we use joint mobilization? Do they own that description and if so, why don't we own acupuncture? I apparently n! eed some educating here. Thanks for your patience. Don Snow, DAOM - Donald Snow Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:38 AM To: Chinese Medicine Re: Bill Just say Tuina, that should cover it. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac. - Alon Marcus DOM Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM To: Chinese Medicine Re: Bill I have just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CA LAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because it does not include joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength of chiros in CA we will never be able to include it in our scop, in writing However, the words manual therapy and myofascial release in our scope only supports our scop! e. Manual therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a good bill Oakland, CA 94609 wwwintegrativehealthmedicine.com - To: Chinese Medicine@com Friday, May 12, 2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points I would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction by Shudo Denmai is probably the best writing about acupuncture I've ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1 > Thu May 11, 2006 7:48am(PDT) > Re: Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points > > I have found the intro text to Japanese Meridian Therapy written by Shudo Denmai to be very useful as well. He goes into very useful ways to separate a channel problem from an organ problem. This book has a wealth of theory but is really geared toward cl! inical practice. It would be helpful to know more about your training style and the type of pracitioner you plan to become (TCM vs Japanese, etc). Hope it helps. > > Mike W. Bowser, LAc > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2006 Report Share Posted May 16, 2006 Bart, Good to have you aboard. First, it has been reported in the media as $1500/household ($1000 in MN) and based upon average incomes reported to the govt. I think that these might have been adjusted for inflation (not sure). If you have other numbers, please post them. Second, it is the right of all beings by virtue of the fact that continually our biology makes it so until we pass away. In addition, our wonderful govt has made it so thru various programs. We can also find that the pursuit of happiness seems to cover this as well. As healthcare providers it would make me surprised to find out that we do not collectively support our moral/ethical obligation of helping first and business second. Are you suggesting otherwise? Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : gbp3: Tue, 16 May 2006 11:32:44 -0700RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseI'm coming late to the party, but a few points:First. Out of what you pull that $1500 number? Second. I agree with Don. Where is it written that healthcare is a right?Third. It's the pursuit of happiness, not the guarantee of Happiness. Bart Chinese Medicine [Chinese Medicine\ @] On Behalf Of mikeBowserTuesday, May 16, 2006 10:36 AMTo: Chinese Medicine: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: TCM - Bill: a ResponseDon,This is not the reality for most Americans (family incomes are nationallydown $1500/household and the lowest in years). Healthcare is a right and aresponsibility both morally and ethically which is why it is often silly tohear discussions about healthcare spending as an economic business. I wantpeople to care for their health as well but am finding that our currentsystem has taken too much capital from people (making them broke) and thenadding to their overall debt burden. It is implied in the Bill of Rightsunder the section of pursuit of Happiness. One cannot be happy if they areill. Additionally you have a right to Medicare if poor as well as manyother programs. I agree that people need to take more responsibility fortheir health but then again pharma and medical reps want the masses toremain stupified while they take all their money. It is all interconnected(much like Ted's " Web that has no weaver " ). My point here was about makingchanges to a broken s!ystem, not trying to punish the poor or have them take out anothermortgage. Your service to our country was never an issue. Later.Mike W. Bowser, L Ac--------------> To: Chinese Medicine > don83407 Tue, 16 May 2006 06:23:08 -0700> Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response> > But yet these same folks are able to buy fine cars and they find the moneyto go out to dinner often, but homes, detail their cars, etc. Yet theydon't want to pay for their health care. I've seen many who would ratherdie than pay for health care, even though they can. Health care is not aright. Nor is it in our Bill of Rights or constitution. I want people whocare about their health. I am not presumptuous, I'm realistic. This islife. Our country has become one in which folks demand " rights. " They usedto assume responsiblity for themselves. You can call me anything you want.But I earned the right to speak my mind and I fought for yours.> Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC> CPT, USA (Ret.)> ----- Original Message -----> mike Bowser> Tuesday, May 16, 2006 5:58 AM> To: Chinese Medicine > RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: TCM - Bill: a Response> Don,> A good practitioner is good but a great one is great. Knowledge is powerand I desire to practice a more complete AOM, that includes bone setting (atleast joint manipulations). To this I want strong skills in xray and labsto be able to better understand and refer patients appropriately. Soundslike your DAOM but there was no such program several years ago. There stillare no DAOM programs east of the rockies.> You seem mighty presumptuous about personal economics. Do you know howmany mfg plants have closed in the last five years? Most people aremortgaged to the max and even the so- called middle class are unable toafford to pay for healthcare services. A whopping 41% of Americans nolonger carry any healthcare coverage and this includes catastrophic. Thisproblem is much larger then you can imagine and truly borders on crisis.Some legislators want to mandate coverage much like auto insr. They fail tosee that it is due to employers wages and a largely unregulated insrindustry that is creating this mess often with no mention of costcontainment. It is a fantasy to expect that AOM will have much of an impactor that cash-only practices will continue unchanged.> Healthcare is a right not an option. People will wait to go to the ER(recent study has shown an increase here) and this will continue to drainour govt. We need to get educated about this problem so we can help withsolutions.> I will leave you with one final thought. The chiro is a strong group andthey are following the same methods as the MD did with both Osteopathy orhomeopathy. The latter is considered the practice of medicine in CA, gofigure. It is about competition not efficacy. Also consider that in thosestates where a DC can practice with minimal training, there will be problemsfor the AOM profession as it dilutes our professional ops. Many times, weare not even considered the real professionals. We have both an imageproblem as well as scope issues.> There are good DC just like there are good LAc.> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac> To: Chinese Medicine:don83407: Mon, 15 May 2006 21:57:58 -0700Re: Re: Re:Re: Bill: a ResponseI believe the DAOM programs to be complete andwith more than enough western medicine. We practice AOM or intergratedmedicine, which is essentially what the DAOM is all about. That's why I nolonger practice western medicine. We do one or the other. When I talk ofintegrative medicine, I talk of using western diagnostics and some limitedwestern therapeutical equipment. For instance, I use the Electroacuscopeand ElectroMyopulse in my practice. I have adapted these two FDA approvedClass II Medical equipment into our AOM theory and my results with thesemachines is phenomenal compared to the results allopaths get with these samepieces of equipment. However, if your prime motivating role is to be ableto bill more insurance, I guess Chiro is OK. But my prime motive is to healthe patient, and generally, if you g!et the results and they know you do, they will come up with the funds topay you even if they have to borrow it. I also offer CareCredit in myclinic. Yeah, I wish more insurance paid us, but it's not worth learninganother medicine. Especially a medicine that I think is inferior to AOM.If Chiros had such great medicine, why are they tripping over themselvestrying to get acupuncture in their scope of practice? That being said, Ithink I have had to refer 2 people to Chiros. But usually, I get manypatients that have been failed by them and AOM works.Dr. Don Snow, DAOM,MPH, L.Ac.-mike BowserMonday, May 15,2006 3:14 PM: RE: Re:Re: Re: TCM - Bill: a ResponseDon,I understand and looked into DO programsbut was uninspired by the drugs and surgery and nothing local (I would loseop to spend time with my daughter). I am doing a chiro program to add to myknowledge base and als!o increase my scope in helping patients. Few MD know how to read an xray and I happen to think this is something we should know. As for themanipulation, that issue would be a non-issue for a DC/LAc. If you look atthose practitioners from Asia many have a lot more WM and I would considerto be closer to MD or DC depending upon their training. I hope that ourprofession can model future education more in line with the DC or ND modelsIt makes sense. MBMike W. Bowser, L AcTo:Chinese Medicine: don83407: Mon,15 May 2006 07:11:51 -0700Re: Re: Re: TCM - Bill: a ResponseThereare no contradictions. It was taught out of a book without any hands-ontraining. That's why it was so unpopular.In my class, we had an M.D. thathad already gone through the MSTOM and he also went through the DAOM withus. Another of our classmates in the DAOM program in now taking the MCATs.He now wants to get the M.D. If I was 30 or 40 again, that's what I woulddo, I wouldn't waste time with Chiro school. !I never saw them set a broken bone either, and I believe AOM to be a morepowerful and complete medicine than Chiro. Chiro is basically tuina. Bythe way, I've set many bones and casted may patients while in the military.I didn't particularly like ortho and that's not an area I'm interested in.However, if others are interested in it, there should be a certificationsystem that trains us so we can do it. If and when medicare adds us totheir system, that's when we'll automatically be accepted in all insurance.I don't see that happening any time soon.Thanks, Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac-mikeBowserSent: Monday, May 15, 2006 6:59 AMTo:Chinese Medicine: RE: Re: Re: TCM - Bill:a ResponseDon,There seems to be some confusion. You stated below, " I teachat PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. When !I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope ofpractice. " Several misconceptions come out of your above statement that arein contradiction with each other. If a bone-setting class was taught in thePCOM DAOM program, and the school only teaches what is in the scope ofpractice, how can this topic be outside our scope of practice? Second, bonesetting involves movement of joints, hence my question about joint movementto begin with. We do not need to perform a HVLA or spell out adjustment inorder to move bones. I have found that many students lack a clear pictureof what we can perform as well. Even massage therapists are allowed to movethings. Glad you enjoyed your DAOM and hope that many others will pursuethis as well. It is definitely a good idea to get WM training to a higherlevel as well. That is one big reason that I am currently attending a DCprogram. In summary, I choose to get involved with knowing about ourfuture healthcare system !and am encouraging others to learn about the economics and decisions thatencompass trying to continue with our costly, bloated and ineffectivesystem. I also think that we need to become political supporters ofremoving insr/HMO from the mix. Many of today's alt med professionals(DC,ND, LAc)are seeing a stepped up attack, both within legislation, as wellas by third party payers to exclude them. Cash is great but many of the 41%of un-insureds cannot afford this. We need to have options or they willcontinue to use the expensive ER for routine things. Take care.MBTo:Chinese Medicine: don83407: Sun,14 May 2006 19:27:43 -0700Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseI neversaid it was outside our scope of practice; you said it. If you actuallyread my primary response you will see what I said. I fully agree with you.We are, and should legally be, primary care physicians within the medicalsystem. That's why I went the ex!tra 10 yards and earned the Doctorate degree. I try not only to " talkthe talk, but to walk the walk. " It was not an easy degree, nor was itcheap. It was a real doctorate. If you'll notice. I practiced Westernmedicine for 22 years, and not usually under the supervision of an M.D.I've performed appendectomies, sutured, prescribed medications, admittedpatients, etc. I've been in 3 wars and I've forgotten more western medicinethan most acupuncturists will probably ever learn, except perhaps in a book.Today, I practice TCM and I integrate WM when necessary, I order labs,xrays, and request (and usually get) MRI's and other costly diagnosticsbecause I know the system and I teach my patients how to use the system. Iam not under any HMOs or Managed Care, I fired ASHP two years ago for, Ibelieve, cheating me I have a cash only practice and am relativelysuccessful. I own or co-own two corporations and both are actually makingmoney. Yes, I hate the current system because we have so much to offer.We do not have the lobby money! necessary to compete with either the Chiros or the allopaths because wehave so many competing acupuncture associations none are making any realmoney. Those that are well funded allow allopaths and Chiros in membershipsand then we find those organizations no longer really represent us. I amnot totally ignorant of what is going on out there. Like you, I resent itand I'm frustrated. But until WE get together on the SAME sheet, we willstay fragmented. That's the only answer I have. I suggest that everyoneget the doctorate, then they have no more excuses because our doctorate isessentially 2 more years of full time education than theirs. Everyone seemsto want to get the licensing names changed to DOM, OMD, etc. But thenthat's not really a doctorate degree, is it? We also get a heck of a lot ofhours in Western medicine (I know that because that's what I teach). Theyget almost no hours in our medicine. The laws were written by them, forthem. So the only w!ay to change it is through your and my patient base. My patients get relief and it's usually the only place they received it. Most come to meyears AFTER Western medicine and Chiro has failed them. Frankly, when theyget the relief many are mad as hell because they have been told the " GrandLie " the nobody can help them. " You're incurable, etc, etc, ad nauseum,.... " These folks vote..and THEY might can change the system. I don't needsomebody who has no idea where I come from or where I've been asking me asilly sarcastic question, " Can you move joints? " Thanks for the soapbox.Respectfully, DrDonald J. Snow, Jr., D.A.O.M., M.PH., M.S.T.O.M, L.Ac., Dipl. Ac.CPT, MS, USA (Ret.)-mike BowserSent:Sunday, May 14, 2006 7:32 AMTo:Chinese Medicine: RE: Re: TCM -BillDon,First question. Can you move joints? Then !why do you assume that manipulation of a joint is outside your scope ofpractice? If you are not using a HVLA thrust or falsely advertisingadjustments? You make an excellent point which is why our profession needsto get involved with future creation of a single payer, universal coveragesystem. IMO we have been witness to a fleecing of Americans and smallbusinesses by the insr/HMO industry and the current medical system. Peopleare being forced to wait for critical events to seek out care (recent studyshowed more ER visits) either by bank account or HMO. There is no way thatsuddenly our population will all decide to choose CM, there are too manylogistical problems with that as well as payment issues. However, we shouldbe included with making decisions on the future system though, and includedas a primary physician (nothing less). It saddens me to hear many confusedpractitioners who have an emotional response simply out of fear orlimitation for a certain bu!siness model. The patient's needs are not considered in all of this dialogue nor is the future of our profession. Those who can and will changeare those who will survive. Take care and sorry about the rant. BTW, CAhas universal payer legislation that has made it out of committee and stillneeds to be voted on by the legislature. Go CA!MBTo:Chinese Medicine: don83407: Sat,13 May 2006 14:58:29 -0700Re: BillI teach at PCOM and weteach only what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoralprogram, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopularbecause this is not in our scope of practice. It seems only reasonable toteach scope of practice because it would be illegal to practice the fullscope in the US. I was a physician assistant in the military and wastrained to prescribe, perform some minor surgerys, etc. Believe me,general, non-specialty western medicine is extremely easy to practice thoughallopaths like to make the public think it! is difficult. But look at military medicine where you have Corpsmen andmedics with three months of training safely prescribing drugs (limitedprescription priviledges), ordering diagnostic tests, etc. I personallythink that we should have training and credentialling in those areas ofallopathic medicine we are interested in practicing, except for drugprescriptions, because frankly, our pharmacopaea is sufficient.Just somethoughts. But the West currently owns the medical system and will not giveup priveledges easily Soon the Western system will be bankrupted and theywill have to change We must stand ready.Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC.-Alon MarcusDOMSaturday, May 13, 2006 2:35 PMTo:Chinese Medicine: Re: BillTheproblem is about what can we in CA get in reality As far as i am concern itsok for us to do su!rgery but this will never pass. Chiros are very powerful in CA and they will never allow an osseous manipulation language to pass. However, inreality all joint manipulation, except setting of fractures, are soft tissuemanipulations and that includes HVLA. This bill is about increasing thechances of getting paid for what we do, that is all. Its not about ouridentity or about defining our self. If you ask me we need to officiallyteach in the schools the entire scope of modern TCM as practiced in China asa first step to change the scope of this profession. But good luck with thecurrent schools. Oakland, CA94609 ----- Original Message----- Donald Snow To:Chinese Medicine Saturday, May 13, 200610:09 AM Re: Bill If it's OK for the M.D.'s and Chiros touse acupuncture, then why can't we use joint mobilization? Do they own thatdescription and if so, why don't we own acupuncture? I apparently n!eed some educating here. Thanks for your patience.Don Snow, DAOM ----- Original Message ----- Donald Snow Sent:Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:38 AM To:Chinese Medicine Re: Bill Justsay Tuina, that should cover it.Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac. ----- Original Message ----- AlonMarcus DOM Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM To:Chinese Medicine Re: Bill Ihave just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CALAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because it does notinclude joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength ofchiros in CA we will never be able to include it in our scop, in writingHowever, the words manual therapy and myofascial release in our scope onlysupports our scop!e. Manual therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a goodbill Oakland, CA 94609 wwwintegrativehealthmedicine.com ----- Original Message ----- To:Chinese Medicine@com Friday, May 12,2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture pointsI would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction by Shudo Denmai isprobably the best writing about acupuncture I've ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1 > Thu May 11, 20067:48am(PDT) > Re: Dispersing and tonifying acupuncturepoints > > I have found the intro text to Japanese Meridian Therapywritten by Shudo Denmai to be very useful as well. He goes into very usefulways to separate a channel problem from an organ problem. This book has awealth of theory but is really geared toward cl!inical practice. It would be helpful to know more about your trainingstyle and the type of pracitioner you plan to become (TCM vs Japanese, etc).Hope it helps. > > Mike W. Bowser, LAc > Subscribe tothe new FREE online journal for TCM at Timeshttp://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 To change youremail delivery settings, click, and adjustaccordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplicationoutside the group requires prior permission from the author. Pleaseconsider the environment and only print this message if absolutelynecessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 Dear Mike, You make a good point, incomes are down. But using this " implied " right is suspect. By that logic I deserve a million dollars because that would make me very happy. I still ask you this: Show me in the Bill of rights or the Constitution where a citizens health care is a right. I've read it and just can't seem to find it. Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > Don, > > This is not the reality for most Americans (family incomes are nationally down $1500/household and the lowest in years). Healthcare is a right and a responsibility both morally and ethically which is why it is often silly to hear discussions about healthcare spending as an economic business. I want people to care for their health as well but am finding that our current system has taken too much capital from people (making them broke) and then adding to their overall debt burden. It is implied in the Bill of Rights under the section of pursuit of Happiness. One cannot be happy if they are ill. Additionally you have a right to Medicare if poor as well as many other programs. I agree that people need to take more responsibility for their health but then again pharma and medical reps want the masses to remain stupified while they take all their money. It is all interconnected (much like Ted's " Web that has no weaver " ). My point here was about making changes to a broken system, not trying to punish the poor or have them take out another mortgage. Your service to our country was never an issue. Later. > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > -------------- > > Chinese Medicine > > don83407 > > Tue, 16 May 2006 06:23:08 -0700 > > Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response > > > > But yet these same folks are able to buy fine cars and they find the money to go out to dinner often, but homes, detail their cars, etc. Yet they don't want to pay for their health care. I've seen many who would rather die than pay for health care, even though they can. Health care is not a right. Nor is it in our Bill of Rights or constitution. I want people who care about their health. I am not presumptuous, I'm realistic. This is life. Our country has become one in which folks demand " rights. " They used to assume responsiblity for themselves. You can call me anything you want. But I earned the right to speak my mind and I fought for yours. > > Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC > > CPT, USA (Ret.) > > - > > mike Bowser > > Tuesday, May 16, 2006 5:58 AM > > Chinese Medicine > > RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response > > Don, > > A good practitioner is good but a great one is great. Knowledge is power and I desire to practice a more complete AOM, that includes bone setting (at least joint manipulations). To this I want strong skills in xray and labs to be able to better understand and refer patients appropriately. Sounds like your DAOM but there was no such program several years ago. There still are no DAOM programs east of the rockies. > > You seem mighty presumptuous about personal economics. Do you know how many mfg plants have closed in the last five years? Most people are mortgaged to the max and even the so- called middle class are unable to afford to pay for healthcare services. A whopping 41% of Americans no longer carry any healthcare coverage and this includes catastrophic. This problem is much larger then you can imagine and truly borders on crisis. Some legislators want to mandate coverage much like auto insr. They fail to see that it is due to employers wages and a largely unregulated insr industry that is creating this mess often with no mention of cost containment. It is a fantasy to expect that AOM will have much of an impact or that cash-only practices will continue unchanged. > > Healthcare is a right not an option. People will wait to go to the ER (recent study has shown an increase here) and this will continue to drain our govt. We need to get educated about this problem so we can help with solutions. > > I will leave you with one final thought. The chiro is a strong group and they are following the same methods as the MD did with both Osteopathy or homeopathy. The latter is considered the practice of medicine in CA, go figure. It is about competition not efficacy. Also consider that in those states where a DC can practice with minimal training, there will be problems for the AOM profession as it dilutes our professional ops. Many times, we are not even considered the real professionals. We have both an image problem as well as scope issues. > > There are good DC just like there are good LAc. > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > : don83407: Mon, 15 May 2006 21:57:58 -0700Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseI believe the DAOM programs to be complete and with more than enough western medicine. We practice AOM or intergrated medicine, which is essentially what the DAOM is all about. That's why I no longer practice western medicine. We do one or the other. When I talk of integrative medicine, I talk of using western diagnostics and some limited western therapeutical equipment. For instance, I use the Electroacuscope and ElectroMyopulse in my practice. I have adapted these two FDA approved Class II Medical equipment into our AOM theory and my results with these machines is phenomenal compared to the results allopaths get with these same pieces of equipment. However, if your prime motivating role is to be able to bill more insurance, I guess Chiro is OK. But my prime motive is to heal the patient, and generally, if you get the results and they know you do, they will come up with the funds to pay you even if they have to borrow it. I also offer CareCredit in my clinic. Yeah, I wish more insurance paid us, but it's not worth learning another medicine. Especially a medicine that I think is inferior to AOM. If Chiros had such great medicine, why are they tripping over themselves trying to get acupuncture in their scope of practice? That being said, I think I have had to refer 2 people to Chiros. But usually, I get many patients that have been failed by them and AOM works.Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.-mike BowserSent: Monday, May 15, 2006 3:14 PM: RE: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseDon,I understand and looked into DO programs but was uninspired by the drugs and surgery and nothing local (I would lose op to spend time with my daughter). I am doing a chiro program to add to my knowledge base and also increase my scope in helping patients. Few MD know how to read an xray and I happen to think this is something we should know. As for the manipulation, that issue would be a non-issue for a DC/LAc. If you look at those practitioners from Asia many have a lot more WM and I would consider to be closer to MD or DC depending upon their training. I hope that our profession can model future education more in line with the DC or ND models It makes sense. MBMike W. Bowser, L AcTo: Chinese Medicine: don83407: Mon, 15 May 2006 07:11:51 -0700Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseThere are no contradictions. It was taught out of a book without any hands-on training. That's why it was so unpopular.In my class, we had an M.D. that had already gone through the MSTOM and he also went through the DAOM with us. Another of our classmates in the DAOM program in now taking the MCATs. He now wants to get the M.D. If I was 30 or 40 again, that's what I would do, I wouldn't waste time with Chiro school. I never saw them set a broken bone either, and I believe AOM to be a more powerful and complete medicine than Chiro. Chiro is basically tuina. By the way, I've set many bones and casted may patients while in the military. I didn't particularly like ortho and that's not an area I'm interested in. However, if others are interested in it, there should be a certification system that trains us so we can do it. If and when medicare adds us to their system, that's when we'll automatically be accepted in all insurance. I don't see that happening any time soon. Thanks, Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac----- Original Message -----mike BowserMonday, May 15, 2006 6:59 AMTo: Chinese Medicine: RE: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseDon,There seems to be some confusion. You stated below, " I teach at PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. " Several misconceptions come out of your above statement that are in contradiction with each other. If a bone-setting class was taught in the PCOM DAOM program, and the school only teaches what is in the scope of practice, how can this topic be outside our scope of practice? Second, bone setting involves movement of joints, hence my question about joint movement to begin with. We do not need to perform a HVLA or spell out adjustment in order to move bones. I have found that many students lack a clear picture of what we can perform as well. Even massage therapists are allowed to move things. Glad you enjoyed your DAOM and hope that many others will pursue this as well. It is definitely a good idea to get WM training to a higher level as well. That is one big reason that I am currently attending a DC program. In summary, I choose to get involved with knowing about our future healthcare system and am encouraging others to learn about the economics and decisions that encompass trying to continue with our costly, bloated and ineffective system. I also think that we need to become political supporters of removing insr/HMO from the mix. Many of today's alt med professionals (DC,ND, LAc)are seeing a stepped up attack, both within legislation, as well as by third party payers to exclude them. Cash is great but many of the 41% of un-insureds cannot afford this. We need to have options or they will continue to use the expensive ER for routine things. Take care.MBTo: Chinese Medicine: don83407: Sun, 14 May 2006 19:27:43 -0700Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseI never said it was outside our scope of practice; you said it. If you actually read my primary response you will see what I said. I fully agree with you. We are, and should legally be, primary care physicians within the medical system. That's why I went the extra 10 yards and earned the Doctorate degree. I try not only to " talk the talk, but to walk the walk. " It was not an easy degree, nor was it cheap. It was a real doctorate. If you'll notice. I practiced Western medicine for 22 years, and not usually under the supervision of an M.D. I've performed appendectomies, sutured, prescribed medications, admitted patients, etc. I've been in 3 wars and I've forgotten more western medicine than most acupuncturists will probably ever learn, except perhaps in a book. Today, I practice TCM and I integrate WM when necessary, I order labs, xrays, and request (and usually get) MRI's and other costly diagnostics because I know the system and I teach my patients how to use the system. I am not under any HMOs or Managed Care, I fired ASHP two years ago for, I believe, cheating me I have a cash only practice and am relatively successful. I own or co-own two corporations and both are actually making money. Yes, I hate the current system because we have so much to offer. We do not have the lobby money necessary to compete with either the Chiros or the allopaths because we have so many competing acupuncture associations none are making any real money. Those that are well funded allow allopaths and Chiros in memberships and then we find those organizations no longer really represent us. I am not totally ignorant of what is going on out there. Like you, I resent it and I'm frustrated. But until WE get together on the SAME sheet, we will stay fragmented. That's the only answer I have. I suggest that everyone get the doctorate, then they have no more excuses because our doctorate is essentially 2 more years of full time education than theirs. Everyone seems to want to get the licensing names changed to DOM, OMD, etc. But then that's not really a doctorate degree, is it? We also get a heck of a lot of hours in Western medicine (I know that because that's what I teach). They get almost no hours in our medicine. The laws were written by them, for them. So the only way to change it is through your and my patient base. My patients get relief and it's usually the only place they received it. Most come to me years AFTER Western medicine and Chiro has failed them. Frankly, when they get the relief many are mad as hell because they have been told the " Grand Lie " the nobody can help them. " You're incurable, etc, etc, ad nauseum,.... " These folks vote..and THEY might can change the system. I don't need somebody who has no idea where I come from or where I've been asking me a silly sarcastic question, " Can you move joints? " Thanks for the soapbox. Respectfully, Dr Donald J. Snow, Jr., D.A.O.M., M.PH., M.S.T.O.M, L.Ac., Dipl. Ac. CPT, MS, USA (Ret.)-mike BowserSunday, May 14, 2006 7:32 AM: RE: Re: BillDon,First question. Can you move joints? Then why do you assume that manipulation of a joint is outside your scope of practice? If you are not using a HVLA thrust or falsely advertising adjustments? You make an excellent point which is why our profession needs to get involved with future creation of a single payer, universal coverage system. IMO we have been witness to a fleecing of Americans and small businesses by the insr/HMO industry and the current medical system. People are being forced to wait for critical events to seek out care (recent study showed more ER visits) either by bank account or HMO. There is no way that suddenly our population will all decide to choose CM, there are too many logistical problems with that as well as payment issues. However, we should be included with making decisions on the future system though, and included as a primary physician (nothing less). It saddens me to hear many confused practitioners who have an emotional response simply out of fear or limitation for a certain business model. The patient's needs are not considered in all of this dialogue nor is the future of our profession. Those who can and will change are those who will survive. Take care and sorry about the rant. BTW, CA has universal payer legislation that has made it out of committee and still needs to be voted on by the legislature. Go CA!MBTo: Chinese Medicine: don83407: Sat, 13 May 2006 14:58:29 -0700Re: BillI teach at PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope of practice. It seems only reasonable to teach scope of practice because it would be illegal to practice the full scope in the US. I was a physician assistant in the military and was trained to prescribe, perform some minor surgerys, etc. Believe me, general, non-specialty western medicine is extremely easy to practice though allopaths like to make the public think it is difficult. But look at military medicine where you have Corpsmen and medics with three months of training safely prescribing drugs (limited prescription priviledges), ordering diagnostic tests, etc. I personally think that we should have training and credentialling in those areas of allopathic medicine we are interested in practicing, except for drug prescriptions, because frankly, our pharmacopaea is sufficient.Just some thoughts. But the West currently owns the medical system and will not give up priveledges easily Soon the Western system will be bankrupted and they will have to change We must stand ready. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC.----- Original Message --- --Saturday, May 13, 2006 2:35 PMTo: Chinese Medicine: Re: BillThe problem is about what can we in CA get in reality As far as i am concern its ok for us to do surgery but this will never pass. Chiros are very powerful in CA and they will never allow an osseous manipulation language to pass. However, in reality all joint manipulation, except setting of fractures, are soft tissue manipulations and that includes HVLA. This bill is about increasing the chances of getting paid for what we do, that is all. Its not about our identity or about defining our self. If you ask me we need to officially teach in the schools the entire scope of modern TCM as practiced in China as a first step to change the scope of this profession. But good luck with the current schools. Oakland, CA 94609510-452- 5034 - Donald Snow To: Chinese Medicine Saturday, May 13, 2006 10:09 AM Re: Bill If it's OK for the M.D.'s and Chiros to use acupuncture, then why can't we use joint mobilization? Do they own that description and if so, why don't we own acupuncture? I apparently need some educating here. Thanks for your patience. Don Snow, DAOM - Donald Snow Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:38 AM To: Chinese Medicine Re: TCM - Bill Just say Tuina, that should cover it. Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac. - Alon Marcus DOM Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM To: Chinese Medicine Re: TCM - Bill I have just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CA LAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because it does not include joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength of chiros in CA we will never be able to include it in our scop, in writing However, the words manual therapy and myofascial release in our scope only supports our scope. Manual therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a good bill Alon Marcus DOM Oakland, CA 94609 wwwintegrativehealthmedicine.com - To: Chinese Medicine@com Friday, May 12, 2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points I would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction by Shudo Denmai is probably the best writing about acupuncture I've ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1 > Thu May 11, 2006 7:48am (PDT) > Re: Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture points > > I have found the intro text to Japanese Meridian Therapy written by Shudo Denmai to be very useful as well. He goes into very useful ways to separate a channel problem from an organ problem. This book has a wealth of theory but is really geared toward clinical practice. It would be helpful to know more about your training style and the type of pracitioner you plan to become (TCM vs Japanese, etc). Hope it helps. > > Mike W. Bowser, LAc > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 Treat enough people for free and see how long you continue treating patients. I've been there and done that. They'll suck you dry. Dr. Snow Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > Bart, > Good to have you aboard. First, it has been reported in the media as $1500/household ($1000 in MN) and based upon average incomes reported to the govt. I think that these might have been adjusted for inflation (not sure). If you have other numbers, please post them. Second, it is the right of all beings by virtue of the fact that continually our biology makes it so until we pass away. In addition, our wonderful govt has made it so thru various programs. We can also find that the pursuit of happiness seems to cover this as well. As healthcare providers it would make me surprised to find out that we do not collectively support our moral/ethical obligation of helping first and business second. Are you suggesting otherwise? > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > : gbp3: Tue, 16 May 2006 11:32:44 -0700RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseI'm coming late to the party, but a few points:First. Out of what you pull that $1500 number? Second. I agree with Don. Where is it written that healthcare is a right?Third. It's the pursuit of happiness, not the guarantee of Happiness. Bart-----Original Message- ----Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mikeBowserTuesday, May 16, 2006 10:36 AMTo: Chinese Medicine: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseDon,This is not the reality for most Americans (family incomes are nationallydown $1500/household and the lowest in years). Healthcare is a right and aresponsibility both morally and ethically which is why it is often silly tohear discussions about healthcare spending as an economic business. I wantpeople to care for their health as well but am finding that our currentsystem has taken too much capital from people (making them broke) and thenadding to their overall debt burden. It is implied in the Bill of Rightsunder the section of pursuit of Happiness. One cannot be happy if they areill. Additionally you have a right to Medicare if poor as well as manyother programs. I agree that people need to take more responsibility fortheir health but then again pharma and medical reps want the masses toremain stupified while they take all their money. It is all interconnected(much like Ted's " Web that has no weaver " ). My point here was about makingchanges to a broken s!ystem, not trying to punish the poor or have them take out anothermortgage. Your service to our country was never an issue. Later.Mike W. Bowser, L Ac--------------> To: Chinese Medicine > don83407 Tue, 16 May 2006 06:23:08 -0700> Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response> > But yet these same folks are able to buy fine cars and they find the moneyto go out to dinner often, but homes, detail their cars, etc. Yet theydon't want to pay for their health care. I've seen many who would ratherdie than pay for health care, even though they can. Health care is not aright. Nor is it in our Bill of Rights or constitution. I want people whocare about their health. I am not presumptuous, I'm realistic. This islife. Our country has become one in which folks demand " rights. " They usedto assume responsiblity for themselves. You can call me anything you want.But I earned the right to speak my mind and I fought for yours.> Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC> CPT, USA (Ret.)> ----- Original Message -----> mike Bowser> Tuesday, May 16, 2006 5:58 AM> Chinese Medicine > RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response> Don,> A good practitioner is good but a great one is great. Knowledge is powerand I desire to practice a more complete AOM, that includes bone setting (atleast joint manipulations). To this I want strong skills in xray and labsto be able to better understand and refer patients appropriately. Soundslike your DAOM but there was no such program several years ago. There stillare no DAOM programs east of the rockies.> You seem mighty presumptuous about personal economics. Do you know howmany mfg plants have closed in the last five years? Most people aremortgaged to the max and even the so- called middle class are unable toafford to pay for healthcare services. A whopping 41% of Americans nolonger carry any healthcare coverage and this includes catastrophic. Thisproblem is much larger then you can imagine and truly borders on crisis.Some legislators want to mandate coverage much like auto insr. They fail tosee that it is due to employers wages and a largely unregulated insrindustry that is creating this mess often with no mention of costcontainment. It is a fantasy to expect that AOM will have much of an impactor that cash-only practices will continue unchanged.> Healthcare is a right not an option. People will wait to go to the ER(recent study has shown an increase here) and this will continue to drainour govt. We need to get educated about this problem so we can help withsolutions.> I will leave you with one final thought. The chiro is a strong group andthey are following the same methods as the MD did with both Osteopathy orhomeopathy. The latter is considered the practice of medicine in CA, gofigure. It is about competition not efficacy. Also consider that in thosestates where a DC can practice with minimal training, there will be problemsfor the AOM profession as it dilutes our professional ops. Many times, weare not even considered the real professionals. We have both an imageproblem as well as scope issues.> There are good DC just like there are good LAc.> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac> :don83407: Mon, 15 May 2006 21:57:58 -0700Re: Re: Re:Re: Bill: a ResponseI believe the DAOM programs to be complete andwith more than enough western medicine. We practice AOM or intergratedmedicine, which is essentially what the DAOM is all about. That's why I nolonger practice western medicine. We do one or the other. When I talk ofintegrative medicine, I talk of using western diagnostics and some limitedwestern therapeutical equipment. For instance, I use the Electroacuscopeand ElectroMyopulse in my practice. I have adapted these two FDA approvedClass II Medical equipment into our AOM theory and my results with thesemachines is phenomenal compared to the results allopaths get with these samepieces of equipment. However, if your prime motivating role is to be ableto bill more insurance, I guess Chiro is OK. But my prime motive is to healthe patient, and generally, if you g!et the results and they know you do, they will come up with the funds topay you even if they have to borrow it. I also offer CareCredit in myclinic. Yeah, I wish more insurance paid us, but it's not worth learninganother medicine. Especially a medicine that I think is inferior to AOM.If Chiros had such great medicine, why are they tripping over themselvestrying to get acupuncture in their scope of practice? That being said, Ithink I have had to refer 2 people to Chiros. But usually, I get manypatients that have been failed by them and AOM works.Dr. Don Snow, DAOM,MPH, L.Ac.-mike BowserMonday, May 15,2006 3:14 PMTo: Chinese Medicine: RE: Re:Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseDon,I understand and looked into DO programsbut was uninspired by the drugs and surgery and nothing local (I would loseop to spend time with my daughter). I am doing a chiro program to add to myknowledge base and als!o increase my scope in helping patients. Few MD know how to read an xray and I happen to think this is something we should know. As for themanipulation, that issue would be a non-issue for a DC/LAc. If you look atthose practitioners from Asia many have a lot more WM and I would considerto be closer to MD or DC depending upon their training. I hope that ourprofession can model future education more in line with the DC or ND modelsIt makes sense. MBMike W. Bowser, L AcTo:Chinese Medicine: don83407: Mon,15 May 2006 07:11:51 -0700Re: Re: Re: TCM - Bill: a ResponseThereare no contradictions. It was taught out of a book without any hands-ontraining. That's why it was so unpopular.In my class, we had an M.D. thathad already gone through the MSTOM and he also went through the DAOM withus. Another of our classmates in the DAOM program in now taking the MCATs.He now wants to get the M.D. If I was 30 or 40 again, that's what I woulddo, I wouldn't waste time with Chiro school. !I never saw them set a broken bone either, and I believe AOM to be a morepowerful and complete medicine than Chiro. Chiro is basically tuina. Bythe way, I've set many bones and casted may patients while in the military.I didn't particularly like ortho and that's not an area I'm interested in.However, if others are interested in it, there should be a certificationsystem that trains us so we can do it. If and when medicare adds us totheir system, that's when we'll automatically be accepted in all insurance.I don't see that happening any time soon.Thanks, Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac- mikeBowserMonday, May 15, 2006 6:59 AMTo:Chinese Medicine: RE: Re: Re: Bill:a ResponseDon,There seems to be some confusion. You stated below, " I teachat PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. When !I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope ofpractice. " Several misconceptions come out of your above statement that arein contradiction with each other. If a bone-setting class was taught in thePCOM DAOM program, and the school only teaches what is in the scope ofpractice, how can this topic be outside our scope of practice? Second, bonesetting involves movement of joints, hence my question about joint movementto begin with. We do not need to perform a HVLA or spell out adjustment inorder to move bones. I have found that many students lack a clear pictureof what we can perform as well. Even massage therapists are allowed to movethings. Glad you enjoyed your DAOM and hope that many others will pursuethis as well. It is definitely a good idea to get WM training to a higherlevel as well. That is one big reason that I am currently attending a DCprogram. In summary, I choose to get involved with knowing about ourfuture healthcare system !and am encouraging others to learn about the economics and decisions thatencompass trying to continue with our costly, bloated and ineffectivesystem. I also think that we need to become political supporters ofremoving insr/HMO from the mix. Many of today's alt med professionals(DC,ND, LAc)are seeing a stepped up attack, both within legislation, as wellas by third party payers to exclude them. Cash is great but many of the 41% of un-insureds cannot afford this. We need to have options or they willcontinue to use the expensive ER for routine things. Take care.MBTo:Chinese Medicine: don83407: Sun,14 May 2006 19:27:43 -0700Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseI neversaid it was outside our scope of practice; you said it. If you actuallyread my primary response you will see what I said. I fully agree with you.We are, and should legally be, primary care physicians within the medicalsystem. That's why I went the ex!tra 10 yards and earned the Doctorate degree. I try not only to " talkthe talk, but to walk the walk. " It was not an easy degree, nor was itcheap. It was a real doctorate. If you'll notice. I practiced Westernmedicine for 22 years, and not usually under the supervision of an M.D.I've performed appendectomies, sutured, prescribed medications, admittedpatients, etc. I've been in 3 wars and I've forgotten more western medicinethan most acupuncturists will probably ever learn, except perhaps in a book.Today, I practice TCM and I integrate WM when necessary, I order labs,xrays, and request (and usually get) MRI's and other costly diagnosticsbecause I know the system and I teach my patients how to use the system. Iam not under any HMOs or Managed Care, I fired ASHP two years ago for, Ibelieve, cheating me I have a cash only practice and am relativelysuccessful. I own or co-own two corporations and both are actually makingmoney. Yes, I hate the current system because we have so much to offer.We do not have the lobby money! necessary to compete with either the Chiros or the allopaths because wehave so many competing acupuncture associations none are making any realmoney. Those that are well funded allow allopaths and Chiros in membershipsand then we find those organizations no longer really represent us. I amnot totally ignorant of what is going on out there. Like you, I resent itand I'm frustrated. But until WE get together on the SAME sheet, we willstay fragmented. That's the only answer I have. I suggest that everyoneget the doctorate, then they have no more excuses because our doctorate isessentially 2 more years of full time education than theirs. Everyone seemsto want to get the licensing names changed to DOM, OMD, etc. But thenthat's not really a doctorate degree, is it? We also get a heck of a lot ofhours in Western medicine (I know that because that's what I teach). Theyget almost no hours in our medicine. The laws were written by them, forthem. So the only w!ay to change it is through your and my patient base. My patients get relief and it's usually the only place they received it. Most come to meyears AFTER Western medicine and Chiro has failed them. Frankly, when theyget the relief many are mad as hell because they have been told the " GrandLie " the nobody can help them. " You're incurable, etc, etc, ad nauseum,.... " These folks vote..and THEY might can change the system. I don't needsomebody who has no idea where I come from or where I've been asking me asilly sarcastic question, " Can you move joints? " Thanks for the soapbox.Respectfully, DrDonald J. Snow, Jr., D.A.O.M., M.PH., M.S.T.O.M, L.Ac., Dipl. Ac.CPT, MS, USA (Ret.)-mike BowserSent:Sunday, May 14, 2006 7:32 AMTo:Chinese Medicine: RE: Re: TCM -BillDon,First question. Can you move joints? Then !why do you assume that manipulation of a joint is outside your scope ofpractice? If you are not using a HVLA thrust or falsely advertisingadjustments? You make an excellent point which is why our profession needsto get involved with future creation of a single payer, universal coveragesystem. IMO we have been witness to a fleecing of Americans and smallbusinesses by the insr/HMO industry and the current medical system. Peopleare being forced to wait for critical events to seek out care (recent studyshowed more ER visits) either by bank account or HMO. There is no way thatsuddenly our population will all decide to choose CM, there are too manylogistical problems with that as well as payment issues. However, we shouldbe included with making decisions on the future system though, and includedas a primary physician (nothing less). It saddens me to hear many confusedpractitioners who have an emotional response simply out of fear orlimitation for a certain bu!siness model. The patient's needs are not considered in all of this dialogue nor is the future of our profession. Those who can and will changeare those who will survive. Take care and sorry about the rant. BTW, CAhas universal payer legislation that has made it out of committee and stillneeds to be voted on by the legislature. Go CA! MBTo:Chinese Medicine: don83407: Sat,13 May 2006 14:58:29 -0700Re: BillI teach at PCOM and weteach only what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the Doctoralprogram, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be very unpopularbecause this is not in our scope of practice. It seems only reasonable toteach scope of practice because it would be illegal to practice the fullscope in the US. I was a physician assistant in the military and wastrained to prescribe, perform some minor surgerys, etc. Believe me,general, non-specialty western medicine is extremely easy to practice thoughallopaths like to make the public think it! is difficult. But look at military medicine where you have Corpsmen andmedics with three months of training safely prescribing drugs (limitedprescription priviledges), ordering diagnostic tests, etc. I personallythink that we should have training and credentialling in those areas ofallopathic medicine we are interested in practicing, except for drugprescriptions, because frankly, our pharmacopaea is sufficient.Just somethoughts. But the West currently owns the medical system and will not giveup priveledges easily Soon the Western system will be bankrupted and theywill have to change We must stand ready.Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC.-Alon MarcusDOMSaturday, May 13, 2006 2:35 PMTo:Chinese Medicine: Re: TCM - BillTheproblem is about what can we in CA get in reality As far as i am concern itsok for us to do su!rgery but this will never pass. Chiros are very powerful in CA and they will never allow an osseous manipulation language to pass. However, inreality all joint manipulation, except setting of fractures, are soft tissuemanipulations and that includes HVLA. This bill is about increasing thechances of getting paid for what we do, that is all. Its not about ouridentity or about defining our self. If you ask me we need to officiallyteach in the schools the entire scope of modern TCM as practiced in China asa first step to change the scope of this profession. But good luck with thecurrent schools. Alon Marcus DOMOakland, CA94609 ----- Original Message----- Donald Snow To:Chinese Medicine Saturday, May 13, 200610:09 AM Re: Bill If it's OK for the M.D.'s and Chiros touse acupuncture, then why can't we use joint mobilization? Do they own thatdescription and if so, why don't we own acupuncture? I apparently n!eed some educating here. Thanks for your patience.Don Snow, DAOM - Donald Snow Sent:Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:38 AM To:Chinese Medicine Re: TCM - Bill Justsay Tuina, that should cover it.Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, MS, L.Ac. - AlonMarcus DOM Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM To:Chinese Medicine Re: TCM - Bill Ihave just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good bill for CALAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because it does notinclude joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to the strength ofchiros in CA we will never be able to include it in our scop, in writingHowever, the words manual therapy and myofascial release in our scope onlysupports our scop!e. Manual therapy is a highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a goodbill Alon Marcus DOM Oakland, CA 94609 510-452- 5034wwwintegrativehealthmedicine.com - To:Chinese Medicine@com Friday, May 12,2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying acupuncture pointsI would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction by Shudo Denmai isprobably the best writing about acupuncture I've ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1 > Thu May 11, 20067:48am(PDT) > Re: Dispersing and tonifying acupuncturepoints > > I have found the intro text to Japanese Meridian Therapywritten by Shudo Denmai to be very useful as well. He goes into very usefulways to separate a channel problem from an organ problem. This book has awealth of theory but is really geared toward cl!inical practice. It would be helpful to know more about your trainingstyle and the type of pracitioner you plan to become (TCM vs Japanese, etc).Hope it helps. > > Mike W. Bowser, LAc > Subscribe tothe new FREE online journal for TCM at Timeshttp://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 To change youremail delivery settings, click, and adjustaccordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplicationoutside the group requires prior permission from the author. Pleaseconsider the environment and only print this message if absolutelynecessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 Don, This brings up the importance of why we need to get a single payer, universal coverage healthcare system in place. It is no longer an option. Remeber GM or Ford or even Toyota. The first two have been claiming hardships due to healthcare costs killing their ability to be competitive. The last one opened a plant that was destined for the US in Canada, because of its healthcare system. Economics, economics, economics, my friend is what affects all of us. Patients are having to cover more out of pocket, policies are covering less, employers are also and then you have declining or stagnant wages. This all ties together the need for the type of solution mentioned above. On a smaller level, it sounds good to say get another job or take responsibility but for many they are past that point and already have an illness. We will continue to see more ER cases. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac -------------- > Chinese Medicine > don83407 > Wed, 17 May 2006 06:51:24 +0000 > Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response > > Treat enough people for free and see how long you continue treating > patients. I've been there and done that. They'll suck you dry. > Dr. Snow > Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " > <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > > > Bart, > > Good to have you aboard. First, it has been reported in the media > as $1500/household ($1000 in MN) and based upon average incomes > reported to the govt. I think that these might have been adjusted for > inflation (not sure). If you have other numbers, please post them. > Second, it is the right of all beings by virtue of the fact that > continually our biology makes it so until we pass away. In addition, > our wonderful govt has made it so thru various programs. We can also > find that the pursuit of happiness seems to cover this as well. As > healthcare providers it would make me surprised to find out that we > do not collectively support our moral/ethical obligation of helping > first and business second. Are you suggesting otherwise? > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > : gbp3: Tue, 16 May 2006 > 11:32:44 -0700RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a > ResponseI'm coming late to the party, but a few points:First. Out of > what you pull that $1500 number? Second. I agree with Don. Where > is it written that healthcare is a right?Third. It's the pursuit of > happiness, not the guarantee of Happiness. Bart-----Original Message- > ----Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > mikeBowserTuesday, May 16, 2006 10:36 AMTo: > Chinese Medicine: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: > a ResponseDon,This is not the reality for most Americans (family > incomes are nationallydown $1500/household and the lowest in years). > Healthcare is a right and aresponsibility both morally and ethically > which is why it is often silly tohear discussions about healthcare > spending as an economic business. I wantpeople to care for their > health as well but am finding that our currentsystem has taken too > much capital from people (making them broke) and thenadding to their > overall debt burden. It is implied in the Bill of Rightsunder the > section of pursuit of Happiness. One cannot be happy if they > areill. Additionally you have a right to Medicare if poor as well as > manyother programs. I agree that people need to take more > responsibility fortheir health but then again pharma and medical reps > want the masses toremain stupified while they take all their money. > It is all interconnected(much like Ted's " Web that has no weaver " ). > My point here was about makingchanges to a broken s!ystem, not trying > to punish the poor or have them take out anothermortgage. Your > service to our country was never an issue. Later.Mike W. Bowser, L > Ac--------------> To: > Chinese Medicine > don83407 > Tue, 16 May 2006 06:23:08 -0700> Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: > Bill: a Response> > But yet these same folks are able to buy > fine cars and they find the moneyto go out to dinner often, but > homes, detail their cars, etc. Yet theydon't want to pay for their > health care. I've seen many who would ratherdie than pay for health > care, even though they can. Health care is not aright. Nor is it in > our Bill of Rights or constitution. I want people whocare about > their health. I am not presumptuous, I'm realistic. This islife. > Our country has become one in which folks demand " rights. " They > usedto assume responsiblity for themselves. You can call me anything > you want.But I earned the right to speak my mind and I fought for > yours.> Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC> CPT, USA (Ret.)> ----- Original > Message -----> mike Bowser> Tuesday, May 16, 2006 5:58 > AM> Chinese Medicine > RE: > Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response> Don,> A good practitioner is > good but a great one is great. Knowledge is powerand I desire to > practice a more complete AOM, that includes bone setting (atleast > joint manipulations). To this I want strong skills in xray and > labsto be able to better understand and refer patients > appropriately. Soundslike your DAOM but there was no such program > several years ago. There stillare no DAOM programs east of the > rockies.> You seem mighty presumptuous about personal economics. Do > you know howmany mfg plants have closed in the last five years? Most > people aremortgaged to the max and even the so- called middle class > are unable toafford to pay for healthcare services. A whopping 41% > of Americans nolonger carry any healthcare coverage and this includes > catastrophic. Thisproblem is much larger then you can imagine and > truly borders on crisis.Some legislators want to mandate coverage > much like auto insr. They fail tosee that it is due to employers > wages and a largely unregulated insrindustry that is creating this > mess often with no mention of costcontainment. It is a fantasy to > expect that AOM will have much of an impactor that cash-only > practices will continue unchanged.> Healthcare is a right not an > option. People will wait to go to the ER(recent study has shown an > increase here) and this will continue to drainour govt. We need to > get educated about this problem so we can help withsolutions.> I will > leave you with one final thought. The chiro is a strong group > andthey are following the same methods as the MD did with both > Osteopathy orhomeopathy. The latter is considered the practice of > medicine in CA, gofigure. It is about competition not efficacy. > Also consider that in thosestates where a DC can practice with > minimal training, there will be problemsfor the AOM profession as it > dilutes our professional ops. Many times, weare not even considered > the real professionals. We have both an imageproblem as well as > scope issues.> There are good DC just like there are good LAc.> Mike > W. Bowser, L Ac> :don83407: > Mon, 15 May 2006 21:57:58 -0700Re: Re: Re:Re: Bill: a > ResponseI believe the DAOM programs to be complete andwith more than > enough western medicine. We practice AOM or intergratedmedicine, > which is essentially what the DAOM is all about. That's why I > nolonger practice western medicine. We do one or the other. When I > talk ofintegrative medicine, I talk of using western diagnostics and > some limitedwestern therapeutical equipment. For instance, I use the > Electroacuscopeand ElectroMyopulse in my practice. I have adapted > these two FDA approvedClass II Medical equipment into our AOM theory > and my results with thesemachines is phenomenal compared to the > results allopaths get with these samepieces of equipment. However, > if your prime motivating role is to be ableto bill more insurance, I > guess Chiro is OK. But my prime motive is to healthe patient, and > generally, if you g!et the results and they know you do, they will > come up with the funds topay you even if they have to borrow it. I > also offer CareCredit in myclinic. Yeah, I wish more insurance paid > us, but it's not worth learninganother medicine. Especially a > medicine that I think is inferior to AOM.If Chiros had such great > medicine, why are they tripping over themselvestrying to get > acupuncture in their scope of practice? That being said, Ithink I > have had to refer 2 people to Chiros. But usually, I get > manypatients that have been failed by them and AOM works.Dr. Don > Snow, DAOM,MPH, L.Ac.-mike > BowserMonday, May 15,2006 3:14 PMTo: > Chinese Medicine: RE: Re:Re: Re: Bill: a > ResponseDon,I understand and looked into DO programsbut was > uninspired by the drugs and surgery and nothing local (I would loseop > to spend time with my daughter). I am doing a chiro program to add > to myknowledge base and als!o increase my scope in helping patients. > Few MD know how to read an xray and I happen to think this is > something we should know. As for themanipulation, that issue would > be a non-issue for a DC/LAc. If you look atthose practitioners from > Asia many have a lot more WM and I would considerto be closer to MD > or DC depending upon their training. I hope that ourprofession can > model future education more in line with the DC or ND modelsIt makes > sense. MBMike W. Bowser, L AcTo:Chinese Medicine: > don83407: Mon,15 May 2006 07:11:51 -0700Re: Re: Re: TCM - > Bill: a ResponseThereare no contradictions. It was taught out of a > book without any hands-ontraining. That's why it was so unpopular.In > my class, we had an M.D. thathad already gone through the MSTOM and > he also went through the DAOM withus. Another of our classmates in > the DAOM program in now taking the MCATs.He now wants to get the > M.D. If I was 30 or 40 again, that's what I woulddo, I wouldn't > waste time with Chiro school. !I never saw them set a broken bone > either, and I believe AOM to be a morepowerful and complete medicine > than Chiro. Chiro is basically tuina. Bythe way, I've set many > bones and casted may patients while in the military.I didn't > particularly like ortho and that's not an area I'm interested > in.However, if others are interested in it, there should be a > certificationsystem that trains us so we can do it. If and when > medicare adds us totheir system, that's when we'll automatically be > accepted in all insurance.I don't see that happening any time > soon.Thanks, Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac- > mikeBowserMonday, May 15, 2006 6:59 > AMTo:Chinese Medicine: RE: Re: Re: Bill:a > ResponseDon,There seems to be some confusion. You stated below, " I > teachat PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do. > When !I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting > which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope > ofpractice. " Several misconceptions come out of your above statement > that arein contradiction with each other. If a bone-setting class > was taught in thePCOM DAOM program, and the school only teaches what > is in the scope ofpractice, how can this topic be outside our scope > of practice? Second, bonesetting involves movement of joints, hence > my question about joint movementto begin with. We do not need to > perform a HVLA or spell out adjustment inorder to move bones. I have > found that many students lack a clear pictureof what we can perform > as well. Even massage therapists are allowed to movethings. Glad > you enjoyed your DAOM and hope that many others will pursuethis as > well. It is definitely a good idea to get WM training to a > higherlevel as well. That is one big reason that I am currently > attending a DCprogram. In summary, I choose to get involved with > knowing about ourfuture healthcare system !and am encouraging others > to learn about the economics and decisions thatencompass trying to > continue with our costly, bloated and ineffectivesystem. I also > think that we need to become political supporters ofremoving insr/HMO > from the mix. Many of today's alt med professionals(DC,ND, LAc)are > seeing a stepped up attack, both within legislation, as wellas by > third party payers to exclude them. Cash is great but many of the 41% > of un-insureds cannot afford this. We need to have options or they > willcontinue to use the expensive ER for routine things. Take > care.MBTo:Chinese Medicine: don83407: Sun,14 May > 2006 19:27:43 -0700Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseI neversaid > it was outside our scope of practice; you said it. If you > actuallyread my primary response you will see what I said. I fully > agree with you.We are, and should legally be, primary care physicians > within the medicalsystem. That's why I went the ex!tra 10 yards and > earned the Doctorate degree. I try not only to " talkthe talk, but to > walk the walk. " It was not an easy degree, nor was itcheap. It was > a real doctorate. If you'll notice. I practiced Westernmedicine > for 22 years, and not usually under the supervision of an M.D.I've > performed appendectomies, sutured, prescribed medications, > admittedpatients, etc. I've been in 3 wars and I've forgotten more > western medicinethan most acupuncturists will probably ever learn, > except perhaps in a book.Today, I practice TCM and I integrate WM > when necessary, I order labs,xrays, and request (and usually get) > MRI's and other costly diagnosticsbecause I know the system and I > teach my patients how to use the system. Iam not under any HMOs or > Managed Care, I fired ASHP two years ago for, Ibelieve, cheating me > I have a cash only practice and am relativelysuccessful. I own or > co-own two corporations and both are actually makingmoney. Yes, I > hate the current system because we have so much to offer.We do not > have the lobby money! necessary to compete with either the Chiros or > the allopaths because wehave so many competing acupuncture > associations none are making any realmoney. Those that are well > funded allow allopaths and Chiros in membershipsand then we find > those organizations no longer really represent us. I amnot totally > ignorant of what is going on out there. Like you, I resent itand I'm > frustrated. But until WE get together on the SAME sheet, we willstay > fragmented. That's the only answer I have. I suggest that > everyoneget the doctorate, then they have no more excuses because our > doctorate isessentially 2 more years of full time education than > theirs. Everyone seemsto want to get the licensing names changed to > DOM, OMD, etc. But thenthat's not really a doctorate degree, is it? > We also get a heck of a lot ofhours in Western medicine (I know that > because that's what I teach). Theyget almost no hours in our > medicine. The laws were written by them, forthem. So the only w!ay > to change it is through your and my patient base. My patients get > relief and it's usually the only place they received it. Most come > to meyears AFTER Western medicine and Chiro has failed them. > Frankly, when theyget the relief many are mad as hell because they > have been told the " GrandLie " the nobody can help them. " You're > incurable, etc, etc, ad nauseum,.... " These folks vote..and THEY might > can change the system. I don't needsomebody who has no idea where I > come from or where I've been asking me asilly sarcastic > question, " Can you move joints? " Thanks for the > soapbox.Respectfully, > DrDonald J. Snow, Jr., D.A.O.M., M.PH., M.S.T.O.M, L.Ac., Dipl. > Ac.CPT, MS, USA (Ret.)-mike > BowserSent:Sunday, May 14, 2006 7:32 > AMTo:Chinese Medicine: RE: Re: TCM -BillDon,First > question. Can you move joints? Then !why do you assume that > manipulation of a joint is outside your scope ofpractice? If you are > not using a HVLA thrust or falsely advertisingadjustments? You make > an excellent point which is why our profession needsto get involved > with future creation of a single payer, universal coveragesystem. > IMO we have been witness to a fleecing of Americans and > smallbusinesses by the insr/HMO industry and the current medical > system. Peopleare being forced to wait for critical events to seek > out care (recent studyshowed more ER visits) either by bank account > or HMO. There is no way thatsuddenly our population will all decide > to choose CM, there are too manylogistical problems with that as well > as payment issues. However, we shouldbe included with making > decisions on the future system though, and includedas a primary > physician (nothing less). It saddens me to hear many > confusedpractitioners who have an emotional response simply out of > fear orlimitation for a certain bu!siness model. The patient's needs > are not considered in all of this dialogue nor is the future of our > profession. Those who can and will changeare those who will > survive. Take care and sorry about the rant. BTW, CAhas universal > payer legislation that has made it out of committee and stillneeds to > be voted on by the legislature. Go CA! > MBTo:Chinese Medicine: don83407: Sat,13 May 2006 > 14:58:29 -0700Re: BillI teach at PCOM and weteach only > what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the > Doctoralprogram, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be > very unpopularbecause this is not in our scope of practice. It seems > only reasonable toteach scope of practice because it would be illegal > to practice the fullscope in the US. I was a physician assistant in > the military and wastrained to prescribe, perform some minor > surgerys, etc. Believe me,general, non-specialty western medicine is > extremely easy to practice thoughallopaths like to make the public > think it! is difficult. But look at military medicine where you > have Corpsmen andmedics with three months of training safely > prescribing drugs (limitedprescription priviledges), ordering > diagnostic tests, etc. I personallythink that we should have > training and credentialling in those areas ofallopathic medicine we > are interested in practicing, except for drugprescriptions, because > frankly, our pharmacopaea is sufficient.Just somethoughts. But the > West currently owns the medical system and will not giveup > priveledges easily Soon the Western system will be bankrupted and > theywill have to change We must stand ready.Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, > L.AC.-Alon MarcusDOMSaturday, > May 13, 2006 2:35 PMTo:Chinese Medicine: Re: TCM - > BillTheproblem is about what can we in CA get in reality As far as i > am concern itsok for us to do su!rgery but this will never pass. > Chiros are very powerful in CA and they will never allow an osseous > manipulation language to pass. However, inreality all joint > manipulation, except setting of fractures, are soft > tissuemanipulations and that includes HVLA. This bill is about > increasing thechances of getting paid for what we do, that is all. > Its not about ouridentity or about defining our self. If you ask me > we need to officiallyteach in the schools the entire scope of modern > TCM as practiced in China asa first step to change the scope of this > profession. But good luck with thecurrent schools. Alon Marcus > DOMOakland, CA94609 > ----- Original Message----- > Donald Snow > To:Chinese Medicine Saturday, > May 13, 200610:09 AM Re: Bill If it's OK for the > M.D.'s and Chiros touse acupuncture, then why can't we use joint > mobilization? Do they own thatdescription and if so, why don't we > own acupuncture? I apparently n!eed some educating here. Thanks > for your patience.Don Snow, DAOM - > Donald Snow Sent:Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:38 AM > To:Chinese Medicine Re: TCM - > Bill Justsay Tuina, that should cover it.Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, > MS, L.Ac. - AlonMarcus DOM Sent: > Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM > To:Chinese Medicine Re: TCM - > Bill Ihave just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good > bill for CALAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because > it does notinclude joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to > the strength ofchiros in CA we will never be able to include it in > our scop, in writingHowever, the words manual therapy and myofascial > release in our scope onlysupports our scop!e. Manual therapy is a > highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by > Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a goodbill Alon > Marcus DOM Oakland, CA 94609 510-452- > 5034wwwintegrativehealthmedicine.com - > > To:Chinese Medicine@com Friday, > May 12,2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying > acupuncture pointsI would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction > by Shudo Denmai isprobably the best writing about acupuncture I've > ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1 > > Thu May 11, 20067:48am(PDT) > Re: Dispersing > and tonifying acupuncturepoints > > I have found the intro text > to Japanese Meridian Therapywritten by Shudo Denmai to be very useful > as well. He goes into very usefulways to separate a channel problem > from an organ problem. This book has awealth of theory but is really > geared toward cl!inical practice. It would be helpful to know more > about your trainingstyle and the type of pracitioner you plan to > become (TCM vs Japanese, etc).Hope it helps. > > Mike W. > Bowser, LAc > Subscribe tothe new FREE online journal for > TCM at > Timeshttp://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new > TCM Forum Toolbar, > click,http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 To > change youremail delivery settings, > click, > and adjustaccordingly. Messages are the property of the > author. Any duplicationoutside the group requires prior permission > from the author. Pleaseconsider the environment and only print > this message if absolutelynecessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 Don, The current political and economic landscape within which we live and work, demands change. That is reality. The decision is whether or not to get involved with input on how it should be changed. Check out your state bill on single payer and see what your reps think about it moving it fwd. Best of luck and hope that CA leads the way once again. LaterMike W. Bowser, L Ac : don83407: Thu, 18 May 2006 15:20:40 +0000Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseDear Mike, I don't at all disagree that we need a single payer, nor do I disagree that all people should have access to health care. But we live in reality and we must deal with it. Dr. SnowChinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 wrote:>> Don,> This brings up the importance of why we need to get a single payer, universal coverage healthcare system in place. It is no longer an option. Remeber GM or Ford or even Toyota. The first two have been claiming hardships due to healthcare costs killing their ability to be competitive. The last one opened a plant that was destined for the US in Canada, because of its healthcare system. Economics, economics, economics, my friend is what affects all of us. Patients are having to cover more out of pocket, policies are covering less, employers are also and then you have declining or stagnant wages. This all ties together the need for the type of solution mentioned above. On a smaller level, it sounds good to say get another job or take responsibility but for many they are past that point and already have an illness. We will continue to see more ER cases.> > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac> > --------------> > To: Chinese Medicine > > don83407 > Wed, 17 May 2006 06:51:24 +0000> > Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response> > > > Treat enough people for free and see how long you continue treating> > patients. I've been there and done that. They'll suck you dry.> > Dr. Snow> > Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " > > <naturaldoc1@> wrote:> > >> > > Bart,> > > Good to have you aboard. First, it has been reported in the media> > as $1500/household ($1000 in MN) and based upon average incomes> > reported to the govt. I think that these might have been adjusted for> > inflation (not sure). If you have other numbers, please post them.> > Second, it is the right of all beings by virtue of the fact that> > continually our biology makes it so until we pass away. In addition,> > our wonderful govt has made it so thru various programs. We can also> > find that the pursuit of happiness seems to cover this as well. As> > healthcare providers it would make me surprised to find out that we> > do not collectively support our moral/ethical obligation of helping> > first and business second. Are you suggesting otherwise?> > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac> > >> > >> > > To: Chinese Medicine@: gbp3@: Tue, 16 May 2006> > 11:32:44 -0700Subject: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a> > ResponseI'm coming late to the party, but a few points:First. Out of> > what you pull that $1500 number? Second. I agree with Don. Where> > is it written that healthcare is a right?Third. It's the pursuit of> > happiness, not the guarantee of Happiness. Bart-----Original Message-> > ----Chinese Medicine > > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of> > mikeBowserTuesday, May 16, 2006 10:36 AMTo:> > Chinese Medicine@: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill:> > a ResponseDon,This is not the reality for most Americans (family> > incomes are nationallydown $1500/household and the lowest in years).> > Healthcare is a right and aresponsibility both morally and ethically> > which is why it is often silly tohear discussions about healthcare> > spending as an economic business. I wantpeople to care for their> > health as well but am finding that our currentsystem has taken too> > much capital from people (making them broke) and thenadding to their> > overall debt burden. It is implied in the Bill of Rightsunder the> > section of pursuit of Happiness. One cannot be happy if they> > areill. Additionally you have a right to Medicare if poor as well as> > manyother programs. I agree that people need to take more> > responsibility fortheir health but then again pharma and medical reps> > want the masses toremain stupified while they take all their money.> > It is all interconnected(much like Ted's " Web that has no weaver " ).> > My point here was about makingchanges to a broken s!ystem, not trying> > to punish the poor or have them take out anothermortgage. Your> > service to our country was never an issue. Later.Mike W. Bowser, L> > Ac--------------> To:> > Chinese Medicine > don83407@>> > Tue, 16 May 2006 06:23:08 -0700> Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:> > Bill: a Response> > But yet these same folks are able to buy> > fine cars and they find the moneyto go out to dinner often, but> > homes, detail their cars, etc. Yet theydon't want to pay for their> > health care. I've seen many who would ratherdie than pay for health> > care, even though they can. Health care is not aright. Nor is it in> > our Bill of Rights or constitution. I want people whocare about> > their health. I am not presumptuous, I'm realistic. This islife.> > Our country has become one in which folks demand " rights. " They> > usedto assume responsiblity for themselves. You can call me anything> > you want.But I earned the right to speak my mind and I fought for> > yours.> Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC> CPT, USA (Ret.)> ----- Original> > Message -----> mike Bowser> Tuesday, May 16, 2006 5:58> > AM> To: Chinese Medicine > RE:> > Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response> Don,> A good practitioner is> > good but a great one is great. Knowledge is powerand I desire to> > practice a more complete AOM, that includes bone setting (atleast> > joint manipulations). To this I want strong skills in xray and> > labsto be able to better understand and refer patients> > appropriately. Soundslike your DAOM but there was no such program> > several years ago. There stillare no DAOM programs east of the> > rockies.> You seem mighty presumptuous about personal economics. Do> > you know howmany mfg plants have closed in the last five years? Most> > people aremortgaged to the max and even the so- called middle class> > are unable toafford to pay for healthcare services. A whopping 41%> > of Americans nolonger carry any healthcare coverage and this includes> > catastrophic. Thisproblem is much larger then you can imagine and> > truly borders on crisis.Some legislators want to mandate coverage> > much like auto insr. They fail tosee that it is due to employers> > wages and a largely unregulated insrindustry that is creating this> > mess often with no mention of costcontainment. It is a fantasy to> > expect that AOM will have much of an impactor that cash-only> > practices will continue unchanged.> Healthcare is a right not an> > option. People will wait to go to the ER(recent study has shown an> > increase here) and this will continue to drainour govt. We need to> > get educated about this problem so we can help withsolutions.> I will> > leave you with one final thought. The chiro is a strong group> > andthey are following the same methods as the MD did with both> > Osteopathy orhomeopathy. The latter is considered the practice of> > medicine in CA, gofigure. It is about competition not efficacy.> > Also consider that in thosestates where a DC can practice with> > minimal training, there will be problemsfor the AOM profession as it> > dilutes our professional ops. Many times, weare not even considered> > the real professionals. We have both an imageproblem as well as> > scope issues.> There are good DC just like there are good LAc.> Mike> > W. Bowser, L Ac> To: Chinese Medicine@:don83407@:> > Mon, 15 May 2006 21:57:58 -0700Re: Re: Re:Re: Bill: a> > ResponseI believe the DAOM programs to be complete andwith more than> > enough western medicine. We practice AOM or intergratedmedicine,> > which is essentially what the DAOM is all about. That's why I> > nolonger practice western medicine. We do one or the other. When I> > talk ofintegrative medicine, I talk of using western diagnostics and> > some limitedwestern therapeutical equipment. For instance, I use the> > Electroacuscopeand ElectroMyopulse in my practice. I have adapted> > these two FDA approvedClass II Medical equipment into our AOM theory> > and my results with thesemachines is phenomenal compared to the> > results allopaths get with these samepieces of equipment. However,> > if your prime motivating role is to be ableto bill more insurance, I> > guess Chiro is OK. But my prime motive is to healthe patient, and> > generally, if you g!et the results and they know you do, they will> > come up with the funds topay you even if they have to borrow it. I> > also offer CareCredit in myclinic. Yeah, I wish more insurance paid> > us, but it's not worth learninganother medicine. Especially a> > medicine that I think is inferior to AOM.If Chiros had such great> > medicine, why are they tripping over themselvestrying to get> > acupuncture in their scope of practice? That being said, Ithink I> > have had to refer 2 people to Chiros. But usually, I get> > manypatients that have been failed by them and AOM works.Dr. Don> > Snow, DAOM,MPH, L.Ac.-mike> > BowserMonday, May 15,2006 3:14 PMTo:> > Chinese Medicine@: RE: Re:Re: Re: Bill: a> > ResponseDon,I understand and looked into DO programsbut was> > uninspired by the drugs and surgery and nothing local (I would loseop> > to spend time with my daughter). I am doing a chiro program to add> > to myknowledge base and als!o increase my scope in helping patients.> > Few MD know how to read an xray and I happen to think this is> > something we should know. As for themanipulation, that issue would> > be a non-issue for a DC/LAc. If you look atthose practitioners from> > Asia many have a lot more WM and I would considerto be closer to MD> > or DC depending upon their training. I hope that ourprofession can> > model future education more in line with the DC or ND modelsIt makes> > sense. MBMike W. Bowser, L AcTo:Chinese Medicine@:> > don83407@: Mon,15 May 2006 07:11:51 -0700Re: Re: Re: TCM -> > Bill: a ResponseThereare no contradictions. It was taught out of a> > book without any hands-ontraining. That's why it was so unpopular.In> > my class, we had an M.D. thathad already gone through the MSTOM and> > he also went through the DAOM withus. Another of our classmates in> > the DAOM program in now taking the MCATs.He now wants to get the> > M.D. If I was 30 or 40 again, that's what I woulddo, I wouldn't> > waste time with Chiro school. !I never saw them set a broken bone> > either, and I believe AOM to be a morepowerful and complete medicine> > than Chiro. Chiro is basically tuina. Bythe way, I've set many> > bones and casted may patients while in the military.I didn't> > particularly like ortho and that's not an area I'm interested> > in.However, if others are interested in it, there should be a> > certificationsystem that trains us so we can do it. If and when> > medicare adds us totheir system, that's when we'll automatically be> > accepted in all insurance.I don't see that happening any time> > soon.Thanks, Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac-> > mikeBowserMonday, May 15, 2006 6:59> > AMTo:Chinese Medicine@: RE: Re: Re: Bill:a> > ResponseDon,There seems to be some confusion. You stated below, " I> > teachat PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do.> > When !I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting> > which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope> > ofpractice. " Several misconceptions come out of your above statement> > that arein contradiction with each other. If a bone-setting class> > was taught in thePCOM DAOM program, and the school only teaches what> > is in the scope ofpractice, how can this topic be outside our scope> > of practice? Second, bonesetting involves movement of joints, hence> > my question about joint movementto begin with. We do not need to> > perform a HVLA or spell out adjustment inorder to move bones. I have> > found that many students lack a clear pictureof what we can perform> > as well. Even massage therapists are allowed to movethings. Glad> > you enjoyed your DAOM and hope that many others will pursuethis as> > well. It is definitely a good idea to get WM training to a> > higherlevel as well. That is one big reason that I am currently> > attending a DCprogram. In summary, I choose to get involved with> > knowing about ourfuture healthcare system !and am encouraging others> > to learn about the economics and decisions thatencompass trying to> > continue with our costly, bloated and ineffectivesystem. I also> > think that we need to become political supporters ofremoving insr/HMO> > from the mix. Many of today's alt med professionals(DC,ND, LAc)are> > seeing a stepped up attack, both within legislation, as wellas by> > third party payers to exclude them. Cash is great but many of the 41%> > of un-insureds cannot afford this. We need to have options or they> > willcontinue to use the expensive ER for routine things. Take> > care.MBTo:Chinese Medicine@: don83407@: Sun,14 May> > 2006 19:27:43 -0700Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseI neversaid> > it was outside our scope of practice; you said it. If you> > actuallyread my primary response you will see what I said. I fully> > agree with you.We are, and should legally be, primary care physicians> > within the medicalsystem. That's why I went the ex!tra 10 yards and> > earned the Doctorate degree. I try not only to " talkthe talk, but to> > walk the walk. " It was not an easy degree, nor was itcheap. It was> > a real doctorate. If you'll notice. I practiced Westernmedicine> > for 22 years, and not usually under the supervision of an M.D.I've> > performed appendectomies, sutured, prescribed medications,> > admittedpatients, etc. I've been in 3 wars and I've forgotten more> > western medicinethan most acupuncturists will probably ever learn,> > except perhaps in a book.Today, I practice TCM and I integrate WM> > when necessary, I order labs,xrays, and request (and usually get)> > MRI's and other costly diagnosticsbecause I know the system and I> > teach my patients how to use the system. Iam not under any HMOs or> > Managed Care, I fired ASHP two years ago for, Ibelieve, cheating me> > I have a cash only practice and am relativelysuccessful. I own or> > co-own two corporations and both are actually makingmoney. Yes, I> > hate the current system because we have so much to offer.We do not> > have the lobby money! necessary to compete with either the Chiros or> > the allopaths because wehave so many competing acupuncture> > associations none are making any realmoney. Those that are well> > funded allow allopaths and Chiros in membershipsand then we find> > those organizations no longer really represent us. I amnot totally> > ignorant of what is going on out there. Like you, I resent itand I'm> > frustrated. But until WE get together on the SAME sheet, we willstay> > fragmented. That's the only answer I have. I suggest that> > everyoneget the doctorate, then they have no more excuses because our> > doctorate isessentially 2 more years of full time education than> > theirs. Everyone seemsto want to get the licensing names changed to> > DOM, OMD, etc. But thenthat's not really a doctorate degree, is it?> > We also get a heck of a lot ofhours in Western medicine (I know that> > because that's what I teach). Theyget almost no hours in our> > medicine. The laws were written by them, forthem. So the only w!ay> > to change it is through your and my patient base. My patients get> > relief and it's usually the only place they received it. Most come> > to meyears AFTER Western medicine and Chiro has failed them.> > Frankly, when theyget the relief many are mad as hell because they> > have been told the " GrandLie " the nobody can help them. " You're> > incurable, etc, etc, ad nauseum,.... " These folks vote..and THEY might> > can change the system. I don't needsomebody who has no idea where I> > come from or where I've been asking me asilly sarcastic> > question, " Can you move joints? " Thanks for the> > soapbox.Respectfully,> > DrDonald J. Snow, Jr., D.A.O.M., M.PH., M.S.T.O.M, L.Ac., Dipl.> > Ac.CPT, MS, USA (Ret.)----- Original Message -----mike> > BowserSent:Sunday, May 14, 2006 7:32> > AMTo:Chinese Medicine@: RE: Re: TCM -BillDon,First> > question. Can you move joints? Then !why do you assume that> > manipulation of a joint is outside your scope ofpractice? If you are> > not using a HVLA thrust or falsely advertisingadjustments? You make> > an excellent point which is why our profession needsto get involved> > with future creation of a single payer, universal coveragesystem.> > IMO we have been witness to a fleecing of Americans and> > smallbusinesses by the insr/HMO industry and the current medical> > system. Peopleare being forced to wait for critical events to seek> > out care (recent studyshowed more ER visits) either by bank account> > or HMO. There is no way thatsuddenly our population will all decide> > to choose CM, there are too manylogistical problems with that as well> > as payment issues. However, we shouldbe included with making> > decisions on the future system though, and includedas a primary> > physician (nothing less). It saddens me to hear many> > confusedpractitioners who have an emotional response simply out of> > fear orlimitation for a certain bu!siness model. The patient's needs> > are not considered in all of this dialogue nor is the future of our> > profession. Those who can and will changeare those who will> > survive. Take care and sorry about the rant. BTW, CAhas universal> > payer legislation that has made it out of committee and stillneeds to> > be voted on by the legislature. Go CA!> > MBTo:Chinese Medicine@: don83407@: Sat,13 May 2006> > 14:58:29 -0700Re: BillI teach at PCOM and weteach only> > what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the> > Doctoralprogram, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be> > very unpopularbecause this is not in our scope of practice. It seems> > only reasonable toteach scope of practice because it would be illegal> > to practice the fullscope in the US. I was a physician assistant in> > the military and wastrained to prescribe, perform some minor> > surgerys, etc. Believe me,general, non-specialty western medicine is> > extremely easy to practice thoughallopaths like to make the public> > think it! is difficult. But look at military medicine where you> > have Corpsmen andmedics with three months of training safely> > prescribing drugs (limitedprescription priviledges), ordering> > diagnostic tests, etc. I personallythink that we should have> > training and credentialling in those areas ofallopathic medicine we> > are interested in practicing, except for drugprescriptions, because> > frankly, our pharmacopaea is sufficient.Just somethoughts. But the> > West currently owns the medical system and will not giveup> > priveledges easily Soon the Western system will be bankrupted and> > theywill have to change We must stand ready.Don Snow, DAOM, MPH,> > L.AC.----- Original Message -----Alon MarcusDOMSaturday,> > May 13, 2006 2:35 PMTo:Chinese Medicine@: Re: TCM -> > BillTheproblem is about what can we in CA get in reality As far as i> > am concern itsok for us to do su!rgery but this will never pass.> > Chiros are very powerful in CA and they will never allow an osseous> > manipulation language to pass. However, inreality all joint> > manipulation, except setting of fractures, are soft> > tissuemanipulations and that includes HVLA. This bill is about> > increasing thechances of getting paid for what we do, that is all.> > Its not about ouridentity or about defining our self. If you ask me> > we need to officiallyteach in the schools the entire scope of modern> > TCM as practiced in China asa first step to change the scope of this> > profession. But good luck with thecurrent schools. Alon Marcus> > DOMOakland, CA94609> > ----- Original Message-----> > Donald Snow> > To:Chinese Medicine Saturday,> > May 13, 200610:09 AM Re: Bill If it's OK for the> > M.D.'s and Chiros touse acupuncture, then why can't we use joint> > mobilization? Do they own thatdescription and if so, why don't we> > own acupuncture? I apparently n!eed some educating here. Thanks> > for your patience.Don Snow, DAOM ----- Original Message ----- > > Donald Snow Sent:Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:38 AM> > To:Chinese Medicine Re: TCM -> > Bill Justsay Tuina, that should cover it.Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH,> > MS, L.Ac. - AlonMarcus DOM Sent:> > Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM> > To:Chinese Medicine Re: TCM -> > Bill Ihave just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good> > bill for CALAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because> > it does notinclude joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to> > the strength ofchiros in CA we will never be able to include it in> > our scop, in writingHowever, the words manual therapy and myofascial> > release in our scope onlysupports our scop!e. Manual therapy is a> > highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by> > Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a goodbill Alon> > Marcus DOM Oakland, CA 94609 510-452-> > 5034wwwintegrativehealthmedicine.com ----- Original Message -----> > > > To:Chinese Medicine@com Friday,> > May 12,2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying> > acupuncture pointsI would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction> > by Shudo Denmai isprobably the best writing about acupuncture I've> > ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1@ >> > Thu May 11, 20067:48am(PDT) > Re: Dispersing> > and tonifying acupuncturepoints > > I have found the intro text> > to Japanese Meridian Therapywritten by Shudo Denmai to be very useful> > as well. He goes into very usefulways to separate a channel problem> > from an organ problem. This book has awealth of theory but is really> > geared toward cl!inical practice. It would be helpful to know more> > about your trainingstyle and the type of pracitioner you plan to> > become (TCM vs Japanese, etc).Hope it helps. > > Mike W.> > Bowser, LAc > Subscribe tothe new FREE online journal for> > TCM at > > Timeshttp://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new> > TCM Forum Toolbar,> > click,http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 To> > change youremail delivery settings,> > click,> > and adjustaccordingly. Messages are the property of the> > author. Any duplicationoutside the group requires prior permission> > from the author. Pleaseconsider the environment and only print> > this message if absolutelynecessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 Thanks, I'm pretty involved. I don't want to be left behind. Right now, we are about where Chiros were 20 years ago and I think we are moving forward at incredible speed. More people are using AOM, and what's more, they are getting results that no other medicine has offered. We all understand that most of the patients we see have already seen a number of MD and specialties unsuccessfully, chiropractors unsuccessfully, etc. We are, unfortunately for the time being, usually the last resort. And statistically as a group, we are successful on at least 60 to 70% of the West's " incurable " cases. Infertility is turning out the same way. We succeed where others fail. AOM is THE medicine of the future. If placebo is so important and such a big deal, where was it when they were being treated allopathically and chiropractically? Dr. Don Snow - mike Bowser Friday, May 19, 2006 11:09 AM Chinese Medicine RE: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response Don, The current political and economic landscape within which we live and work, demands change. That is reality. The decision is whether or not to get involved with input on how it should be changed. Check out your state bill on single payer and see what your reps think about it moving it fwd Best of luck and hope that CA leads the way once again. LaterMike W. Bowser, L Ac : don83407: Thu, 18 May 2006 15:20:40 +0000Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseDear Mike, I don't at all disagree that we need a single payer, nor do I disagree that all people should have access to health care. But we live in reality and we must deal with it. Dr. SnowChinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 wrote:>> Don,> This brings up the importance of why we need to get a single payer, universal coverage healthcare system in place. It is no longer an option. Remeber GM or Ford or even Toyota. The first two have been claiming hardships due to healthcare costs killing their ability to be competitive. The last one opened a plant that was destined for the US in Canada, because of its healthcare system. Economics, economics, economics, my friend is what affects all of us. Patients are having to cover more out of pocket, policies are covering less, employers are also and then you have declining or stagnant wages. This all ties together the need for the type of solution mentioned above. On a smaller level, it sounds good to say get another job or take responsibility but for many they are past that point and already have an illness. We will continue to see more ER cases.> > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac> > --------------> > To: Chinese Medicine > > don83407@..> > Wed, 17 May 2006 06:51:24 +0000> > Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response> > > > Treat enough people for free and see how long you continue treating> > patients. I've been there and done that. They'll suck you dry.> > Dr. Snow> > Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " > > <naturaldoc1@> wrote:> > >> > > Bart,> > > Good to have you aboard. First, it has been reported in the media> > as $1500/household ($1000 in MN) and based upon average incomes> > reported to the govt. I think that these might have been adjusted for> > inflation (not sure). If you have other numbers, please post them.> > Second, it is the right of all beings by virtue of the fact that> > continually our biology makes it so until we pass away. In addition,> > our wonderful govt has made it so thru various programs. We can also> > find that the pursuit of happiness seems to cover this as well. As> > healthcare providers it would make me surprised to find out that we> > do not collectively support our moral/ethical obligation of helping> > first and business second. Are you suggesting otherwise?> > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac> > >> > >> > > To: Chinese Medicine@: gbp3@: Tue, 16 May 2006> > 11:32:44 -0700Subject: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a> > ResponseI'm coming late to the party, but a few points:First. Out of> > what you pull that $1500 number? Second. I agree with Don. Where> > is it written that healthcare is a right?Third. It's the pursuit of> > happiness, not the guarantee of Happiness. Bart-----Original Message-> > ----Chinese Medicine > > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of> > mikeBowserTuesday, May 16, 2006 10:36 AMTo:> > Chinese Medicine@: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill:> > a ResponseDon,This is not the reality for most Americans (family> > incomes are nationallydown $1500/household and the lowest in years).> > Healthcare is a right and aresponsibility both morally and ethically> > which is why it is often silly tohear discussions about healthcare> > spending as an economic business. I wantpeople to care for their> > health as well but am finding that our currentsystem has taken too> > much capital from people (making them broke) and thenadding to their> > overall debt burden. It is implied in the Bill of Rightsunder the> > section of pursuit of Happiness. One cannot be happy if they> > areill. Additionally you have a right to Medicare if poor as well as> > manyother programs. I agree that people need to take more> > responsibility fortheir health but then again pharma and medical reps> > want the masses toremain stupified while they take all their money.> > It is all interconnected(much like Ted's " Web that has no weaver " ).> > My point here was about makingchanges to a broken s!ystem, not trying> > to punish the poor or have them take out anothermortgage. Your> > service to our country was never an issue. Later.Mike W. Bowser, L> > Ac--------------> To:> > Chinese Medicine > don83407@>> > Tue, 16 May 2006 06:23:08 -0700> Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:> > Bill: a Response> > But yet these same folks are able to buy> > fine cars and they find the moneyto go out to dinner often, but> > homes, detail their cars, etc. Yet theydon't want to pay for their> > health care. I've seen many who would ratherdie than pay for health> > care, even though they can. Health care is not aright. Nor is it in> > our Bill of Rights or constitution. I want people whocare about> > their health. I am not presumptuous, I'm realistic. This islife.> > Our country has become one in which folks demand " rights. " They> > usedto assume responsiblity for themselves. You can call me anything> > you want.But I earned the right to speak my mind and I fought for> > yours.> Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC> CPT, USA (Ret.)> ----- Original> > Message -----> mike Bowser> Tuesday, May 16, 2006 5:58> > AM> To: Chinese Medicine > RE:> > Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response> Don,> A good practitioner is> > good but a great one is great. Knowledge is powerand I desire to> > practice a more complete AOM, that includes bone setting (atleast> > joint manipulations). To this I want strong skills in xray and> > labsto be able to better understand and refer patients> > appropriately. Soundslike your DAOM but there was no such program> > several years ago. There stillare no DAOM programs east of the> > rockies.> You seem mighty presumptuous about personal economics. Do> > you know howmany mfg plants have closed in the last five years? Most> > people aremortgaged to the max and even the so- called middle class> > are unable toafford to pay for healthcare services. A whopping 41%> > of Americans nolonger carry any healthcare coverage and this includes> > catastrophic. Thisproblem is much larger then you can imagine and> > truly borders on crisis.Some legislators want to mandate coverage> > much like auto insr. They fail tosee that it is due to employers> > wages and a largely unregulated insrindustry that is creating this> > mess often with no mention of costcontainment. It is a fantasy to> > expect that AOM will have much of an impactor that cash-only> > practices will continue unchanged.> Healthcare is a right not an> > option. People will wait to go to the ER(recent study has shown an> > increase here) and this will continue to drainour govt. We need to> > get educated about this problem so we can help withsolutions.> I will> > leave you with one final thought. The chiro is a strong group> > andthey are following the same methods as the MD did with both> > Osteopathy orhomeopathy. The latter is considered the practice of> > medicine in CA, gofigure. It is about competition not efficacy.> > Also consider that in thosestates where a DC can practice with> > minimal training, there will be problemsfor the AOM profession as it> > dilutes our professional ops. Many times, weare not even considered> > the real professionals. We have both an imageproblem as well as> > scope issues.> There are good DC just like there are good LAc.> Mike> > W. Bowser, L Ac> To: Chinese Medicine@:don83407@:> > Mon, 15 May 2006 21:57:58 -0700Re: Re: Re:Re: Bill: a> > ResponseI believe the DAOM programs to be complete andwith more than> > enough western medicine. We practice AOM or intergratedmedicine,> > which is essentially what the DAOM is all about. That's why I> > nolonger practice western medicine. We do one or the other. When I> > talk ofintegrative medicine, I talk of using western diagnostics and> > some limitedwestern therapeutical equipment. For instance, I use the> > Electroacuscopeand ElectroMyopulse in my practice. I have adapted> > these two FDA approvedClass II Medical equipment into our AOM theory> > and my results with thesemachines is phenomenal compared to the> > results allopaths get with these samepieces of equipment. However,> > if your prime motivating role is to be ableto bill more insurance, I> > guess Chiro is OK. But my prime motive is to healthe patient, and> > generally, if you g!et the results and they know you do, they will> > come up with the funds topay you even if they have to borrow it. I> > also offer CareCredit in myclinic. Yeah, I wish more insurance paid> > us, but it's not worth learninganother medicine. Especially a> > medicine that I think is inferior to AOM.If Chiros had such great> > medicine, why are they tripping over themselvestrying to get> > acupuncture in their scope of practice? That being said, Ithink I> > have had to refer 2 people to Chiros. But usually, I get> > manypatients that have been failed by them and AOM works.Dr. Don> > Snow, DAOM,MPH, L.Ac.-mike> > BowserMonday, May 15,2006 3:14 PMTo:> > Chinese Medicine@: RE: Re:Re: Re: Bill: a> > ResponseDon,I understand and looked into DO programsbut was> > uninspired by the drugs and surgery and nothing local (I would loseop> > to spend time with my daughter). I am doing a chiro program to add> > to myknowledge base and als!o increase my scope in helping patients.> > Few MD know how to read an xray and I happen to think this is> > something we should know. As for themanipulation, that issue would> > be a non-issue for a DC/LAc. If you look atthose practitioners from> > Asia many have a lot more WM and I would considerto be closer to MD> > or DC depending upon their training. I hope that ourprofession can> > model future education more in line with the DC or ND modelsIt makes> > sense. MBMike W. Bowser, L AcTo:Chinese Medicine@:> > don83407@: Mon,15 May 2006 07:11:51 -0700Re: Re: Re: TCM -> > Bill: a ResponseThereare no contradictions. It was taught out of a> > book without any hands-ontraining. That's why it was so unpopular.In> > my class, we had an M.D. thathad already gone through the MSTOM and> > he also went through the DAOM withus. Another of our classmates in> > the DAOM program in now taking the MCATs.He now wants to get the> > M.D. If I was 30 or 40 again, that's what I woulddo, I wouldn't> > waste time with Chiro school. !I never saw them set a broken bone> > either, and I believe AOM to be a morepowerful and complete medicine> > than Chiro. Chiro is basically tuina. Bythe way, I've set many> > bones and casted may patients while in the military.I didn't> > particularly like ortho and that's not an area I'm interested> > in.However, if others are interested in it, there should be a> > certificationsystem that trains us so we can do it. If and when> > medicare adds us totheir system, that's when we'll automatically be> > accepted in all insurance.I don't see that happening any time> > soonThanks, Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac-> > mikeBowserMonday, May 15, 2006 6:59> > AMTo:Chinese Medicine@: RE: Re: Re: Bill:a> > ResponseDon,There seems to be some confusion. You stated below, " I> > teachat PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do.> > When !I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting> > which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope> > ofpractice. " Several misconceptions come out of your above statement> > that arein contradiction with each other. If a bone-setting class> > was taught in thePCOM DAOM program, and the school only teaches what> > is in the scope ofpractice, how can this topic be outside our scope> > of practice? Second, bonesetting involves movement of joints, hence> > my question about joint movementto begin with. We do not need to> > perform a HVLA or spell out adjustment inorder to move bones. I have> > found that many students lack a clear pictureof what we can perform> > as well. Even massage therapists are allowed to movethings. Glad> > you enjoyed your DAOM and hope that many others will pursuethis as> > well. It is definitely a good idea to get WM training to a> > higherlevel as well. That is one big reason that I am currently> > attending a DCprogram. In summary, I choose to get involved with> > knowing about ourfuture healthcare system !and am encouraging others> > to learn about the economics and decisions thatencompass trying to> > continue with our costly, bloated and ineffectivesystem. I also> > think that we need to become political supporters ofremoving insr/HMO> > from the mix. Many of today's alt med professionals(DC,ND, LAc)are> > seeing a stepped up attack, both within legislation, as wellas by> > third party payers to exclude them. Cash is great but many of the 41%> > of un-insureds cannot afford this. We need to have options or they> > willcontinue to use the expensive ER for routine things. Take> > care.MBTo:Chinese Medicine@: don83407@: Sun,14 May> > 2006 19:27:43 -0700Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseI neversaid> > it was outside our scope of practice; you said it. If you> > actuallyread my primary response you will see what I said. I fully> > agree with you.We are, and should legally be, primary care physicians> > within the medicalsystem. That's why I went the ex!tra 10 yards and> > earned the Doctorate degree. I try not only to " talkthe talk, but to> > walk the walk. " It was not an easy degree, nor was itcheap. It was> > a real doctorate. If you'll notice. I practiced Westernmedicine> > for 22 years, and not usually under the supervision of an M.D.I've> > performed appendectomies, sutured, prescribed medications,> > admittedpatients, etc. I've been in 3 wars and I've forgotten more> > western medicinethan most acupuncturists will probably ever learn,> > except perhaps in a book.Today, I practice TCM and I integrate WM> > when necessary, I order labs,xrays, and request (and usually get)> > MRI's and other costly diagnosticsbecause I know the system and I> > teach my patients how to use the system. Iam not under any HMOs or> > Managed Care, I fired ASHP two years ago for, Ibelieve, cheating me> > I have a cash only practice and am relativelysuccessful. I own or> > co-own two corporations and both are actually makingmoney. Yes, I> > hate the current system because we have so much to offer.We do not> > have the lobby money! necessary to compete with either the Chiros or> > the allopaths because wehave so many competing acupuncture> > associations none are making any realmoney. Those that are well> > funded allow allopaths and Chiros in membershipsand then we find> > those organizations no longer really represent us. I amnot totally> > ignorant of what is going on out there. Like you, I resent itand I'm> > frustrated. But until WE get together on the SAME sheet, we willstay> > fragmented. That's the only answer I have. I suggest that> > everyoneget the doctorate, then they have no more excuses because our> > doctorate isessentially 2 more years of full time education than> > theirs. Everyone seemsto want to get the licensing names changed to> > DOM, OMD, etc. But thenthat's not really a doctorate degree, is it?> > We also get a heck of a lot ofhours in Western medicine (I know that> > because that's what I teach). Theyget almost no hours in our> > medicine. The laws were written by them, forthem. So the only w!ay> > to change it is through your and my patient base. My patients get> > relief and it's usually the only place they received it. Most come> > to meyears AFTER Western medicine and Chiro has failed them.> > Frankly, when theyget the relief many are mad as hell because they> > have been told the " GrandLie " the nobody can help them. " You're> > incurable, etc, etc, ad nauseum,.... " These folks vote..and THEY might> > can change the system. I don't needsomebody who has no idea where I> > come from or where I've been asking me asilly sarcastic> > question, " Can you move joints? " Thanks for the> > soapbox.Respectfully,> > DrDonald J. Snow, Jr., D.A.O.M., M.PH., M.S.T.O.M, L.Ac., Dipl.> > Ac.CPT, MS, USA (Ret.)----- Original Message -----mike> > BowserSent:Sunday, May 14, 2006 7:32> > AMTo:Chinese Medicine@: RE: Re: TCM -BillDon,First> > question. Can you move joints? Then !why do you assume that> > manipulation of a joint is outside your scope ofpractice? If you are> > not using a HVLA thrust or falsely advertisingadjustments? You make> > an excellent point which is why our profession needsto get involved> > with future creation of a single payer, universal coveragesystem.> > IMO we have been witness to a fleecing of Americans and> > smallbusinesses by the insr/HMO industry and the current medical> > system. Peopleare being forced to wait for critical events to seek> > out care (recent studyshowed more ER visits) either by bank account> > or HMO. There is no way thatsuddenly our population will all decide> > to choose CM, there are too manylogistical problems with that as well> > as payment issues. However, we shouldbe included with making> > decisions on the future system though, and includedas a primary> > physician (nothing less). It saddens me to hear many> > confusedpractitioners who have an emotional response simply out of> > fear orlimitation for a certain bu!siness model. The patient's needs> > are not considered in all of this dialogue nor is the future of our> > profession. Those who can and will changeare those who will> > survive. Take care and sorry about the rant. BTW, CAhas universal> > payer legislation that has made it out of committee and stillneeds to> > be voted on by the legislature. Go CA!> > MBTo:Chinese Medicine@: don83407@: Sat,13 May 2006> > 14:58:29 -0700Re: BillI teach at PCOM and weteach only> > what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the> > Doctoralprogram, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be> > very unpopularbecause this is not in our scope of practice. It seems> > only reasonable toteach scope of practice because it would be illegal> > to practice the fullscope in the US. I was a physician assistant in> > the military and wastrained to prescribe, perform some minor> > surgerys, etc. Believe me,general, non-specialty western medicine is> > extremely easy to practice thoughallopaths like to make the public> > think it! is difficult. But look at military medicine where you> > have Corpsmen andmedics with three months of training safely> > prescribing drugs (limitedprescription priviledges), ordering> > diagnostic tests, etc. I personallythink that we should have> > training and credentialling in those areas ofallopathic medicine we> > are interested in practicing, except for drugprescriptions, because> > frankly, our pharmacopaea is sufficient.Just somethoughts. But the> > West currently owns the medical system and will not giveup> > priveledges easily Soon the Western system will be bankrupted and> > theywill have to change We must stand ready.Don Snow, DAOM, MPH,> > L.AC.----- Original Message -----Alon MarcusDOMSaturday,> > May 13, 2006 2:35 PMTo:Chinese Medicine@: Re: TCM -> > BillTheproblem is about what can we in CA get in reality As far as i> > am concern itsok for us to do su!rgery but this will never pass.> > Chiros are very powerful in CA and they will never allow an osseous> > manipulation language to pass. However, inreality all joint> > manipulation, except setting of fractures, are soft> > tissuemanipulations and that includes HVLA. This bill is about> > increasing thechances of getting paid for what we do, that is all.> > Its not about ouridentity or about defining our self. If you ask me> > we need to officiallyteach in the schools the entire scope of modern> > TCM as practiced in China asa first step to change the scope of this> > profession. But good luck with thecurrent schools. Alon Marcus> > DOMOakland, CA94609> > ----- Original Message-----> > Donald Snow> > To:Chinese Medicine Saturday,> > May 13, 200610:09 AM Re: Bill If it's OK for the> > M.D.'s and Chiros touse acupuncture, then why can't we use joint> > mobilization? Do they own thatdescription and if so, why don't we> > own acupuncture? I apparently n!eed some educating here. Thanks> > for your patience.Don Snow, DAOM ----- Original Message ----- > > Donald Snow Sent:Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:38 AM> > To:Chinese Medicine Re: TCM -> > Bill Justsay Tuina, that should cover it.Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH,> > MS, L.Ac. - AlonMarcus DOM Sent:> > Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM> > To:Chinese Medicine Re: TCM -> > Bill Ihave just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good> > bill for CALAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because> > it does notinclude joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to> > the strength ofchiros in CA we will never be able to include it in> > our scop, in writingHowever, the words manual therapy and myofascial> > release in our scope onlysupports our scop!e. Manual therapy is a> > highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by> > Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a goodbill Alon> > Marcus DOM Oakland, CA 94609 510-452-> > 5034wwwintegrativehealthmedicinecom -> > > > To:Chinese Medicine@com Friday,> > May 12,2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying> > acupuncture pointsI would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction> > by Shudo Denmai isprobably the best writing about acupuncture I've> > ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1@ >> > Thu May 11, 20067:48am(PDT) > Re: Dispersing> > and tonifying acupuncturepoints > > I have found the intro text> > to Japanese Meridian Therapywritten by Shudo Denmai to be very useful> > as well. He goes into very usefulways to separate a channel problem> > from an organ problem. This book has awealth of theory but is really> > geared toward cl!inical practice. It would be helpful to know more> > about your trainingstyle and the type of pracitioner you plan to> > become (TCM vs Japanese, etc).Hope it helps. > > Mike W.> > Bowser, LAc > Subscribe tothe new FREE online journal for> > TCM at > > Timeshttp://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new> > TCM Forum Toolbar,> > click,http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 To> > change youremail delivery settings,> > click,> > and adjustaccordingly Messages are the property of the> > author. Any duplicationoutside the group requires prior permission> > from the author. Pleaseconsider the environment and only print> > this message if absolutelynecessary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 Don, To find the answer you seek, you would need to evaluate the type of practice (time spent with patient, manner of dialogue, etc) between the MD/chiro and the LAc. I, personally, think that chiro who follow the medical model of care (average time spent is around 3-5 min) are finding less effectiveness with outcomes. MB : don83407: Fri, 19 May 2006 22:14:28 -0700Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseThanks, I'm pretty involved. I don't want to be left behind. Right now, we are about where Chiros were 20 years ago and I think we are moving forward at incredible speed. More people are using AOM, and what's more, they are getting results that no other medicine has offered. We all understand that most of the patients we see have already seen a number of MD and specialties unsuccessfully, chiropractors unsuccessfully, etc. We are, unfortunately for the time being, usually the last resort. And statistically as a group, we are successful on at least 60 to 70% of the West's " incurable " cases. Infertility is turning out the same way. We succeed where others fail. AOM is THE medicine of the future. If placebo is so important and such a big deal, where was it when they were being treated allopathically and chiropractically? ;)Dr. Don Snow----- Original Message -----mike BowserFriday, May 19, 2006 11:09 AMTo: Chinese Medicine: RE: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseDon,The current political and economic landscape within which we live and work, demands change. That is reality. The decision is whether or not to get involved with input on how it should be changed. Check out your state bill on single payer and see what your reps think about it moving it fwd Best of luck and hope that CA leads the way once again. LaterMike W. Bowser, L AcTo: Chinese Medicine: don83407: Thu, 18 May 2006 15:20:40 +0000Re: Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseDear Mike, I don't at all disagree that we need a single payer, nor do I disagree that all people should have access to health care. But we live in reality and we must deal with it. Dr. SnowChinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 wrote:>> Don,> This brings up the importance of why we need to get a single payer, universal coverage healthcare system in place. It is no longer an option. Remeber GM or Ford or even Toyota. The first two have been claiming hardships due to healthcare costs killing their ability to be competitive. The last one opened a plant that was destined for the US in Canada, because of its healthcare system. Economics, economics, economics, my friend is what affects all of us. Patients are having to cover more out of pocket, policies are covering less, employers are also and then you have declining or stagnant wages. This all ties together the need for the type of solution mentioned above. On a smaller level, it sounds good to say get another job or take responsibility but for many they are past that point and already have an illness. We will continue to see more ER cases.> > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac> > --------------> > To: Chinese Medicine > > don83407@..> > Wed, 17 May 2006 06:51:24 +0000> > Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response> > > > Treat enough people for free and see how long you continue treating> > patients. I've been there and done that. They'll suck you dry.> > Dr. Snow> > Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " > > <naturaldoc1@> wrote:> > >> > > Bart,> > > Good to have you aboard. First, it has been reported in the media> > as $1500/household ($1000 in MN) and based upon average incomes> > reported to the govt. I think that these might have been adjusted for> > inflation (not sure). If you have other numbers, please post them.> > Second, it is the right of all beings by virtue of the fact that> > continually our biology makes it so until we pass away. In addition,> > our wonderful govt has made it so thru various programs. We can also> > find that the pursuit of happiness seems to cover this as well. As> > healthcare providers it would make me surprised to find out that we> > do not collectively support our moral/ethical obligation of helping> > first and business second. Are you suggesting otherwise?> > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac> > >> > >> > > To: Chinese Medicine@: gbp3@: Tue, 16 May 2006> > 11:32:44 -0700Subject: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a> > ResponseI'm coming late to the party, but a few points:First. Out of> > what you pull that $1500 number? Second. I agree with Don. Where> > is it written that healthcare is a right?Third. It's the pursuit of> > happiness, not the guarantee of Happiness. Bart-----Original Message-> > ----Chinese Medicine > > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of> > mikeBowserTuesday, May 16, 2006 10:36 AMTo:> > Chinese Medicine@: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill:> > a ResponseDon,This is not the reality for most Americans (family> > incomes are nationallydown $1500/household and the lowest in years).> > Healthcare is a right and aresponsibility both morally and ethically> > which is why it is often silly tohear discussions about healthcare> > spending as an economic business. I wantpeople to care for their> > health as well but am finding that our currentsystem has taken too> > much capital from people (making them broke) and thenadding to their> > overall debt burden. It is implied in the Bill of Rightsunder the> > section of pursuit of Happiness. One cannot be happy if they> > areill. Additionally you have a right to Medicare if poor as well as> > manyother programs. I agree that people need to take more> > responsibility fortheir health but then again pharma and medical reps> > want the masses toremain stupified while they take all their money.> > It is all interconnected(much like Ted's " Web that has no weaver " ).> > My point here was about makingchanges to a broken s!ystem, not trying> > to punish the poor or have them take out anothermortgage. Your> > service to our country was never an issue. Later.Mike W. Bowser, L> > Ac--------------> To:> > Chinese Medicine > don83407@>> > Tue, 16 May 2006 06:23:08 -0700> Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:> > Bill: a Response> > But yet these same folks are able to buy> > fine cars and they find the moneyto go out to dinner often, but> > homes, detail their cars, etc. Yet theydon't want to pay for their> > health care. I've seen many who would ratherdie than pay for health> > care, even though they can. Health care is not aright. Nor is it in> > our Bill of Rights or constitution. I want people whocare about> > their health. I am not presumptuous, I'm realistic. This islife.> > Our country has become one in which folks demand " rights. " They> > usedto assume responsiblity for themselves. You can call me anything> > you want.But I earned the right to speak my mind and I fought for> > yours.> Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.AC> CPT, USA (Ret.)> ----- Original> > Message -----> mike Bowser> Tuesday, May 16, 2006 5:58> > AM> To: Chinese Medicine > RE:> > Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response> Don,> A good practitioner is> > good but a great one is great. Knowledge is powerand I desire to> > practice a more complete AOM, that includes bone setting (atleast> > joint manipulations). To this I want strong skills in xray and> > labsto be able to better understand and refer patients> > appropriately. Soundslike your DAOM but there was no such program> > several years ago. There stillare no DAOM programs east of the> > rockies.> You seem mighty presumptuous about personal economics. Do> > you know howmany mfg plants have closed in the last five years? Most> > people aremortgaged to the max and even the so- called middle class> > are unable toafford to pay for healthcare services. A whopping 41%> > of Americans nolonger carry any healthcare coverage and this includes> > catastrophic. Thisproblem is much larger then you can imagine and> > truly borders on crisis.Some legislators want to mandate coverage> > much like auto insr. They fail tosee that it is due to employers> > wages and a largely unregulated insrindustry that is creating this> > mess often with no mention of costcontainment. It is a fantasy to> > expect that AOM will have much of an impactor that cash-only> > practices will continue unchanged.> Healthcare is a right not an> > option. People will wait to go to the ER(recent study has shown an> > increase here) and this will continue to drainour govt. We need to> > get educated about this problem so we can help withsolutions.> I will> > leave you with one final thought. The chiro is a strong group> > andthey are following the same methods as the MD did with both> > Osteopathy orhomeopathy. The latter is considered the practice of> > medicine in CA, gofigure. It is about competition not efficacy.> > Also consider that in thosestates where a DC can practice with> > minimal training, there will be problemsfor the AOM profession as it> > dilutes our professional ops. Many times, weare not even considered> > the real professionals. We have both an imageproblem as well as> > scope issues.> There are good DC just like there are good LAc.> Mike> > W. Bowser, L Ac> To: Chinese Medicine@:don83407@:> > Mon, 15 May 2006 21:57:58 -0700Re: Re: Re:Re: Bill: a> > ResponseI believe the DAOM programs to be complete andwith more than> > enough western medicine. We practice AOM or intergratedmedicine,> > which is essentially what the DAOM is all about. That's why I> > nolonger practice western medicine. We do one or the other. When I> > talk ofintegrative medicine, I talk of using western diagnostics and> > some limitedwestern therapeutical equipment. For instance, I use the> > Electroacuscopeand ElectroMyopulse in my practice. I have adapted> > these two FDA approvedClass II Medical equipment into our AOM theory> > and my results with thesemachines is phenomenal compared to the> > results allopaths get with these samepieces of equipment. However,> > if your prime motivating role is to be ableto bill more insurance, I> > guess Chiro is OK. But my prime motive is to healthe patient, and> > generally, if you g!et the results and they know you do, they will> > come up with the funds topay you even if they have to borrow it. I> > also offer CareCredit in myclinic. Yeah, I wish more insurance paid> > us, but it's not worth learninganother medicine. Especially a> > medicine that I think is inferior to AOM.If Chiros had such great> > medicine, why are they tripping over themselvestrying to get> > acupuncture in their scope of practice? That being said, Ithink I> > have had to refer 2 people to Chiros. But usually, I get> > manypatients that have been failed by them and AOM works.Dr. Don> > Snow, DAOM,MPH, L.Ac.-mike> > BowserMonday, May 15,2006 3:14 PMTo:> > Chinese Medicine@: RE: Re:Re: Re: Bill: a> > ResponseDon,I understand and looked into DO programsbut was> > uninspired by the drugs and surgery and nothing local (I would loseop> > to spend time with my daughter). I am doing a chiro program to add> > to myknowledge base and als!o increase my scope in helping patients.> > Few MD know how to read an xray and I happen to think this is> > something we should know. As for themanipulation, that issue would> > be a non-issue for a DC/LAc. If you look atthose practitioners from> > Asia many have a lot more WM and I would considerto be closer to MD> > or DC depending upon their training. I hope that ourprofession can> > model future education more in line with the DC or ND modelsIt makes> > sense. MBMike W. Bowser, L AcTo:Chinese Medicine@:> > don83407@: Mon,15 May 2006 07:11:51 -0700Re: Re: Re: TCM -> > Bill: a ResponseThereare no contradictions. It was taught out of a> > book without any hands-ontraining. That's why it was so unpopular.In> > my class, we had an M.D. thathad already gone through the MSTOM and> > he also went through the DAOM withus. Another of our classmates in> > the DAOM program in now taking the MCATs.He now wants to get the> > M.D. If I was 30 or 40 again, that's what I woulddo, I wouldn't> > waste time with Chiro school. !I never saw them set a broken bone> > either, and I believe AOM to be a morepowerful and complete medicine> > than Chiro. Chiro is basically tuina. Bythe way, I've set many> > bones and casted may patients while in the military.I didn't> > particularly like ortho and that's not an area I'm interested> > in.However, if others are interested in it, there should be a> > certificationsystem that trains us so we can do it. If and when> > medicare adds us totheir system, that's when we'll automatically be> > accepted in all insurance.I don't see that happening any time> > soonThanks, Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac-> > mikeBowserMonday, May 15, 2006 6:59> > AMTo:Chinese Medicine@: RE: Re: Re: Bill:a> > ResponseDon,There seems to be some confusion. You stated below, " I> > teachat PCOM and we teach only what we are legally allowed to do.> > When !I was in the Doctoral program, we had a course in bone setting> > which appeared to be very unpopular because this is not in our scope> > ofpractice. " Several misconceptions come out of your above statement> > that arein contradiction with each other. If a bone-setting class> > was taught in thePCOM DAOM program, and the school only teaches what> > is in the scope ofpractice, how can this topic be outside our scope> > of practice? Second, bonesetting involves movement of joints, hence> > my question about joint movementto begin with. We do not need to> > perform a HVLA or spell out adjustment inorder to move bones. I have> > found that many students lack a clear pictureof what we can perform> > as well. Even massage therapists are allowed to movethings. Glad> > you enjoyed your DAOM and hope that many others will pursuethis as> > well. It is definitely a good idea to get WM training to a> > higherlevel as well. That is one big reason that I am currently> > attending a DCprogram. In summary, I choose to get involved with> > knowing about ourfuture healthcare system !and am encouraging others> > to learn about the economics and decisions thatencompass trying to> > continue with our costly, bloated and ineffectivesystem. I also> > think that we need to become political supporters ofremoving insr/HMO> > from the mix. Many of today's alt med professionals(DC,ND, LAc)are> > seeing a stepped up attack, both within legislation, as wellas by> > third party payers to exclude them. Cash is great but many of the 41%> > of un-insureds cannot afford this. We need to have options or they> > willcontinue to use the expensive ER for routine things. Take> > care.MBTo:Chinese Medicine@: don83407@: Sun,14 May> > 2006 19:27:43 -0700Re: Re: Bill: a ResponseI neversaid> > it was outside our scope of practice; you said it. If you> > actuallyread my primary response you will see what I said. I fully> > agree with you.We are, and should legally be, primary care physicians> > within the medicalsystem. That's why I went the ex!tra 10 yards and> > earned the Doctorate degree. I try not only to " talkthe talk, but to> > walk the walk. " It was not an easy degree, nor was itcheap. It was> > a real doctorate. If you'll notice. I practiced Westernmedicine> > for 22 years, and not usually under the supervision of an M.D.I've> > performed appendectomies, sutured, prescribed medications,> > admittedpatients, etc. I've been in 3 wars and I've forgotten more> > western medicinethan most acupuncturists will probably ever learn,> > except perhaps in a book.Today, I practice TCM and I integrate WM> > when necessary, I order labs,xrays, and request (and usually get)> > MRI's and other costly diagnosticsbecause I know the system and I> > teach my patients how to use the system. Iam not under any HMOs or> > Managed Care, I fired ASHP two years ago for, Ibelieve, cheating me> > I have a cash only practice and am relativelysuccessful. I own or> > co-own two corporations and both are actually makingmoney. Yes, I> > hate the current system because we have so much to offer.We do not> > have the lobby money! necessary to compete with either the Chiros or> > the allopaths because wehave so many competing acupuncture> > associations none are making any realmoney. Those that are well> > funded allow allopaths and Chiros in membershipsand then we find> > those organizations no longer really represent us. I amnot totally> > ignorant of what is going on out there. Like you, I resent itand I'm> > frustrated. But until WE get together on the SAME sheet, we willstay> > fragmented. That's the only answer I have. I suggest that> > everyoneget the doctorate, then they have no more excuses because our> > doctorate isessentially 2 more years of full time education than> > theirs. Everyone seemsto want to get the licensing names changed to> > DOM, OMD, etc. But thenthat's not really a doctorate degree, is it?> > We also get a heck of a lot ofhours in Western medicine (I know that> > because that's what I teach). Theyget almost no hours in our> > medicine. The laws were written by them, forthem. So the only w!ay> > to change it is through your and my patient base. My patients get> > relief and it's usually the only place they received it. Most come> > to meyears AFTER Western medicine and Chiro has failed them.> > Frankly, when theyget the relief many are mad as hell because they> > have been told the " GrandLie " the nobody can help them. " You're> > incurable, etc, etc, ad nauseum,.... " These folks vote..and THEY might> > can change the system. I don't needsomebody who has no idea where I> > come from or where I've been asking me asilly sarcastic> > question, " Can you move joints? " Thanks for the> > soapbox.Respectfully,> > DrDonald J. Snow, Jr., D.A.O.M., M.PH., M.S.T.O.M, L.Ac., Dipl.> > Ac.CPT, MS, USA (Ret.)----- Original Message -----mike> > BowserSent:Sunday, May 14, 2006 7:32> > AMTo:Chinese Medicine@: RE: Re: TCM -BillDon,First> > question. Can you move joints? Then !why do you assume that> > manipulation of a joint is outside your scope ofpractice? If you are> > not using a HVLA thrust or falsely advertisingadjustments? You make> > an excellent point which is why our profession needsto get involved> > with future creation of a single payer, universal coveragesystem.> > IMO we have been witness to a fleecing of Americans and> > smallbusinesses by the insr/HMO industry and the current medical> > system. Peopleare being forced to wait for critical events to seek> > out care (recent studyshowed more ER visits) either by bank account> > or HMO. There is no way thatsuddenly our population will all decide> > to choose CM, there are too manylogistical problems with that as well> > as payment issues. However, we shouldbe included with making> > decisions on the future system though, and includedas a primary> > physician (nothing less). It saddens me to hear many> > confusedpractitioners who have an emotional response simply out of> > fear orlimitation for a certain bu!siness model. The patient's needs> > are not considered in all of this dialogue nor is the future of our> > profession. Those who can and will changeare those who will> > survive. Take care and sorry about the rant. BTW, CAhas universal> > payer legislation that has made it out of committee and stillneeds to> > be voted on by the legislature. Go CA!> > MBTo:Chinese Medicine@: don83407@: Sat,13 May 2006> > 14:58:29 -0700Re: BillI teach at PCOM and weteach only> > what we are legally allowed to do. When I was in the> > Doctoralprogram, we had a course in bone setting which appeared to be> > very unpopularbecause this is not in our scope of practice. It seems> > only reasonable toteach scope of practice because it would be illegal> > to practice the fullscope in the US. I was a physician assistant in> > the military and wastrained to prescribe, perform some minor> > surgerys, etc. Believe me,general, non-specialty western medicine is> > extremely easy to practice thoughallopaths like to make the public> > think it! is difficult. But look at military medicine where you> > have Corpsmen andmedics with three months of training safely> > prescribing drugs (limitedprescription priviledges), ordering> > diagnostic tests, etc. I personallythink that we should have> > training and credentialling in those areas ofallopathic medicine we> > are interested in practicing, except for drugprescriptions, because> > frankly, our pharmacopaea is sufficient.Just somethoughts. But the> > West currently owns the medical system and will not giveup> > priveledges easily Soon the Western system will be bankrupted and> > theywill have to change We must stand ready.Don Snow, DAOM, MPH,> > L.AC.----- Original Message -----Alon MarcusDOMSaturday,> > May 13, 2006 2:35 PMTo:Chinese Medicine@: Re: TCM -> > BillTheproblem is about what can we in CA get in reality As far as i> > am concern itsok for us to do su!rgery but this will never pass.> > Chiros are very powerful in CA and they will never allow an osseous> > manipulation language to pass. However, inreality all joint> > manipulation, except setting of fractures, are soft> > tissuemanipulations and that includes HVLA. This bill is about> > increasing thechances of getting paid for what we do, that is all.> > Its not about ouridentity or about defining our self. If you ask me> > we need to officiallyteach in the schools the entire scope of modern> > TCM as practiced in China asa first step to change the scope of this> > profession. But good luck with thecurrent schools. Alon Marcus> > DOMOakland, CA94609> > ----- Original Message-----> > Donald Snow> > To:Chinese Medicine Saturday,> > May 13, 200610:09 AM Re: Bill If it's OK for the> > M.D.'s and Chiros touse acupuncture, then why can't we use joint> > mobilization? Do they own thatdescription and if so, why don't we> > own acupuncture? I apparently n!eed some educating here. Thanks> > for your patience.Don Snow, DAOM ----- Original Message ----- > > Donald Snow Sent:Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:38 AM> > To:Chinese Medicine Re: TCM -> > Bill Justsay Tuina, that should cover it.Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH,> > MS, L.Ac. - AlonMarcus DOM Sent:> > Friday, May 12, 2006 1:54 PM> > To:Chinese Medicine Re: TCM -> > Bill Ihave just read the wording on AB3014 and think this is a good> > bill for CALAcs. For those that think this reduces our scope because> > it does notinclude joint mobilization etc. I would say that due to> > the strength ofchiros in CA we will never be able to include it in> > our scop, in writingHowever, the words manual therapy and myofascial> > release in our scope onlysupports our scop!e. Manual therapy is a> > highly inclusive term that is used to describe many techniques by> > Osteopaths and Physicians doing bodywork. This is a goodbill Alon> > Marcus DOM Oakland, CA 94609 510-452-> > 5034wwwintegrativehealthmedicinecom -> > > > To:Chinese Medicine@com Friday,> > May 12,2006 6:39 AM Dispersing and tonifying> > acupuncture pointsI would agree with Mike. Actually this introduction> > by Shudo Denmai isprobably the best writing about acupuncture I've> > ever seen. doug > " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1@ >> > Thu May 11, 20067:48am(PDT) > Re: Dispersing> > and tonifying acupuncturepoints > > I have found the intro text> > to Japanese Meridian Therapywritten by Shudo Denmai to be very useful> > as well. He goes into very usefulways to separate a channel problem> > from an organ problem. This book has awealth of theory but is really> > geared toward cl!inical practice. It would be helpful to know more> > about your trainingstyle and the type of pracitioner you plan to> > become (TCM vs Japanese, etc).Hope it helps. > > Mike W.> > Bowser, LAc > Subscribe tothe new FREE online journal for> > TCM at > > Timeshttp://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new> > TCM Forum Toolbar,> > click,http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 To> > change youremail delivery settings,> > click,> > and adjustaccordingly Messages are the property of the> > author. Any duplicationoutside the group requires prior permission> > from the author. Pleaseconsider the environment and only print> > this message if absolutelynecessary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 And statistically as a group, we are successful on at least 60 to 70% >>>> Where do you get this number? There is no way you can defend this number on any medical condition. At this point we see less than 3% of the population and we have NO quality audits of our practice anywhere. This is the kind hot air we do not need. We need a change in attitude away from such demagogy if we are truly to start making real headway. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2006 Report Share Posted May 21, 2006 Those are my stats and I stand by them. Other doctoral students I studied with got them. Hope you do too. Dr. Snow - Saturday, May 20, 2006 9:26 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill: a Response And statistically as a group, we are successful on at least 60 to 70% >>>> Where do you get this number? There is no way you can defend this number on any medical condition. At this point we see less than 3% of the population and we have NO quality audits of our practice anywhere. This is the kind hot air we do not need. We need a change in attitude away from such demagogy if we are truly to start making real headway. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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