Guest guest Posted April 16, 2006 Report Share Posted April 16, 2006 Hi all I work in pediatric intensive care department and it is not easy to use moxibustion for its smell. I want to ask what can be also use instead of moxa? Also I want to ask if someone has experiences with using acupuncture during anesthesia? Thanks for all answers Boris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 Hello everyone: Stopped using traditional moxa years ago do to questionable side effects (lung qi & yin xu), not to mention the inevitable question from other tenants in the building, " Who's smoking pot in the building? " Purchased some Liquid Moxa from Blue Poppy which can be used with the TDP Lamps, but haven't put it into clinical use. Regards, Raman Basha, LAC 'Basha' San Diego/Encinitas --- ivanicboris <ivanicboris wrote: > > Hi all > I work in pediatric intensive care department and it > is not easy to > use moxibustion for its smell. I want to ask what > can be also use > instead of moxa? > Also I want to ask if someone has experiences with > using acupuncture > during anesthesia? > > Thanks for all answers > > > Boris > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 A few comments: The ideas below are excellent with one caveat. The smokeless moxa is almost certainly toxic. Just try inhaling the fumes the next time you work with the smokeless variety. As much, I don't recommend it. Regards, Raman Basha, LAC San Diego/Encinitas --- wrote: > I think that the ideal approach is to use, as Cory > says,a salve made with mugwort oil (mugwort is the > main ingredient in moxa), but to go one step > further. There is a guy in New England , I don't > remember where, though, (he had an ad in Acupuncture > Today)who has come up with a device, appropriately > named " safety warmer " (shaped a little like a > soldering gun) which safely allows focused warming, > without the danger of burning. An approach might be > to apply the oil or salve to key points such as ren > 4, 6 and 8, and then apply the " safety warmer " to > promote the deeper penetration of the essential oil, > much as a moxa stick would do. Another, simpler > approach might be to use " smokeless " moxa, if > practical, which is readily available. > > Yehuda > > cory wrote: > > Boris, > > You could make a salve with infused mugwort oil as > well as any > other herbs you may choose. If you want to use it > for a child (not a > baby) you could also add essential oils like > cinnamon, etc. Add beeswax > or coconut oil to bind it. > > Cory Trusty > http://chinesetherapeutics.org/catalog/index.php > > On Sun, 16 Apr 2006, ivanicboris wrote: > > > > > Hi all > > I work in pediatric intensive care department and > it is not easy to > > use moxibustion for its smell. I want to ask what > can be also use > > instead of moxa? > > Also I want to ask if someone has experiences with > using acupuncture > > during anesthesia? > > > > Thanks for all answers > > > > > > Boris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 A few years ago, JCM printed a Chinese study that showed that smokeless moxa released large quantities of carbon monoxide into the air, and was unsafe for use. Perhaps now the quality is better, but I remember when I was a school clinic supervisor that the smokeless sticks broke off into chunks easily, endangering patients and causing a fire hazard. Using thread-sized Japanese-style moxa makes little smoke and is very potent in its effects. On Apr 17, 2006, at 11:29 AM, yehuda frischman wrote: > Another, simpler approach might be to use " smokeless " moxa, if > practical, which is readily available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 I feel very strongly that moxa shouldn't be abandoned so quickly. While I certainly understand the limits that modern practices in medical and mixed used office buildings creates, I feel that moxabustion has been a mainstay of Chinese medical practice since antiquity, and in fact predated acupuncture practice. It is mentioned in the Ma Wang Dui manuscripts, whereas acupuncture appears later, in the Nei Jing corpus. So we shouldn't be so quick to pass up on what historically is of perhaps equal importance to needle therapy. I don't know if you could truly document lung qi and yin xu effects from moxa, depending on style (thread versus pole), quality, air ventilation, etc. In 24 years of use, I haven't really seen that effect on myself, at least. To give it up completely, in my opinion, reduces the efficacy of Chinese medical practice. I think personally that the pole method of moxa is used too much, the thread style or moxa on needle style too little. On Apr 17, 2006, at 9:26 AM, acu basha wrote: > Hello everyone: > > > Stopped using traditional moxa years ago do to > questionable side effects (lung qi & yin xu), not to > mention the inevitable question from other tenants in > the building, " Who's smoking pot in the building? " > > Purchased some Liquid Moxa from Blue Poppy which can > be used with the TDP Lamps, but haven't put it into > clinical use. > > > Regards, > > > Raman Basha, LAC 'Basha' > San Diego/Encinitas > > --- ivanicboris <ivanicboris wrote: > >> >> Hi all >> I work in pediatric intensive care department and it >> is not easy to >> use moxibustion for its smell. I want to ask what >> can be also use >> instead of moxa? >> Also I want to ask if someone has experiences with >> using acupuncture >> during anesthesia? >> >> Thanks for all answers >> >> >> Boris >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http:// > toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > http:// > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > absolutely necessary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 Hi Z'ev, I happened to be introduced recently to a different,hollow type of smokeless moxa. I would suspect that the amount of CO released by it would be significantly less. Are you familiar with it. Concerning your other post, I can't tell you how much I agree with you as to the efficacy of moxa as a therapy. There is simply nothing that I have found, (at least in my limited experience)which can support spleen yang and expel cold as effectively as moxa. Yehuda A few years ago, JCM printed a Chinese study that showed that smokeless moxa released large quantities of carbon monoxide into the air, and was unsafe for use. Perhaps now the quality is better, but I remember when I was a school clinic supervisor that the smokeless sticks broke off into chunks easily, endangering patients and causing a fire hazard. Using thread-sized Japanese-style moxa makes little smoke and is very potent in its effects. <zrosenbe wrote: I feel very strongly that moxa shouldn't be abandoned so quickly. While I certainly understand the limits that modern practices in medical and mixed used office buildings creates, I feel that moxabustion has been a mainstay of Chinese medical practice since antiquity, and in fact predated acupuncture practice. It is mentioned in the Ma Wang Dui manuscripts, whereas acupuncture appears later, in the Nei Jing corpus. So we shouldn't be so quick to pass up on what historically is of perhaps equal importance to needle therapy. I don't know if you could truly document lung qi and yin xu effects from moxa, depending on style (thread versus pole), quality, air ventilation, etc. In 24 years of use, I haven't really seen that effect on myself, at least. To give it up completely, in my opinion, reduces the efficacy of Chinese medical practice. I think personally that the pole method of moxa is used too much, the thread style or moxa on needle style too little. On Apr 17, 2006, at 9:26 AM, acu basha wrote: > Hello everyone: > > > Stopped using traditional moxa years ago do to > questionable side effects (lung qi & yin xu), not to > mention the inevitable question from other tenants in > the building, " Who's smoking pot in the building? " > > Purchased some Liquid Moxa from Blue Poppy which can > be used with the TDP Lamps, but haven't put it into > clinical use. > > > Regards, > > > Raman Basha, LAC 'Basha' > San Diego/Encinitas > > --- ivanicboris <ivanicboris wrote: > >> >> Hi all >> I work in pediatric intensive care department and it >> is not easy to >> use moxibustion for its smell. I want to ask what >> can be also use >> instead of moxa? >> Also I want to ask if someone has experiences with >> using acupuncture >> during anesthesia? >> >> Thanks for all answers >> >> >> Boris >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http:// > toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > http:// > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > absolutely necessary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 A professional smoke extractor (like the ones they use in labs, not the ones used in pubs etc.) works wonders for me. A company called Nederman sells them. I almost always use moxa on needle, I seldom use moxa pole. But where can we find more information on thread style moxa? Does thread here refer to a very fine roll of moxa? Burnt directly unto the skin? Thanks, Tom. ---- 04/17/06 20:56:45 Chinese Medicine Re: moxibustion I feel very strongly that moxa shouldn't be abandoned so quickly. While I certainly understand the limits that modern practices in medical and mixed used office buildings creates, I feel that moxabustion has been a mainstay of Chinese medical practice since antiquity, and in fact predated acupuncture practice. It is mentioned in the Ma Wang Dui manuscripts, whereas acupuncture appears later, in the Nei Jing corpus. So we shouldn't be so quick to pass up on what historically is of perhaps equal importance to needle therapy. I don't know if you could truly document lung qi and yin xu effects from moxa, depending on style (thread versus pole), quality, air ventilation, etc. In 24 years of use, I haven't really seen that effect on myself, at least. To give it up completely, in my opinion, reduces the efficacy of Chinese medical practice. I think personally that the pole method of moxa is used too much, the thread style or moxa on needle style too little. On Apr 17, 2006, at 9:26 AM, acu basha wrote: > Hello everyone: > > > Stopped using traditional moxa years ago do to > questionable side effects (lung qi & yin xu), not to > mention the inevitable question from other tenants in > the building, " Who's smoking pot in the building? " > > Purchased some Liquid Moxa from Blue Poppy which can > be used with the TDP Lamps, but haven't put it into > clinical use. > > > Regards, > > > Raman Basha, LAC 'Basha' > San Diego/Encinitas > > --- ivanicboris <ivanicboris wrote: > >> >> Hi all >> I work in pediatric intensive care department and it >> is not easy to >> use moxibustion for its smell. I want to ask what >> can be also use >> instead of moxa? >> Also I want to ask if someone has experiences with >> using acupuncture >> during anesthesia? >> >> Thanks for all answers >> >> >> Boris >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http:// > toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > http:// > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > absolutely necessary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 Being a former asthmatic I have a sensitive lung and can't stand standard smoky moxa. I've used smokeless moxa for years with no problems. After my wife told Peter Deadman of the smokeless moxa he recently added it for sale on the JCM website. Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. Editor Times +44 (0) 208 367 8378 enquiries <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of yehuda frischman 17 April 2006 20:08 Chinese Medicine Re: moxibustion Hi Z'ev, I happened to be introduced recently to a different,hollow type of smokeless moxa. I would suspect that the amount of CO released by it would be significantly less. Are you familiar with it. Concerning your other post, I can't tell you how much I agree with you as to the efficacy of moxa as a therapy. There is simply nothing that I have found, (at least in my limited experience)which can support spleen yang and expel cold as effectively as moxa. Yehuda A few years ago, JCM printed a Chinese study that showed that smokeless moxa released large quantities of carbon monoxide into the air, and was unsafe for use. Perhaps now the quality is better, but I remember when I was a school clinic supervisor that the smokeless sticks broke off into chunks easily, endangering patients and causing a fire hazard. Using thread-sized Japanese-style moxa makes little smoke and is very potent in its effects. <zrosenbe wrote: I feel very strongly that moxa shouldn't be abandoned so quickly. While I certainly understand the limits that modern practices in medical and mixed used office buildings creates, I feel that moxabustion has been a mainstay of Chinese medical practice since antiquity, and in fact predated acupuncture practice. It is mentioned in the Ma Wang Dui manuscripts, whereas acupuncture appears later, in the Nei Jing corpus. So we shouldn't be so quick to pass up on what historically is of perhaps equal importance to needle therapy. I don't know if you could truly document lung qi and yin xu effects from moxa, depending on style (thread versus pole), quality, air ventilation, etc. In 24 years of use, I haven't really seen that effect on myself, at least. To give it up completely, in my opinion, reduces the efficacy of Chinese medical practice. I think personally that the pole method of moxa is used too much, the thread style or moxa on needle style too little. On Apr 17, 2006, at 9:26 AM, acu basha wrote: > Hello everyone: > > > Stopped using traditional moxa years ago do to > questionable side effects (lung qi & yin xu), not to > mention the inevitable question from other tenants in > the building, " Who's smoking pot in the building? " > > Purchased some Liquid Moxa from Blue Poppy which can > be used with the TDP Lamps, but haven't put it into > clinical use. > > > Regards, > > > Raman Basha, LAC 'Basha' > San Diego/Encinitas > > --- ivanicboris <ivanicboris wrote: > >> >> Hi all >> I work in pediatric intensive care department and it >> is not easy to >> use moxibustion for its smell. I want to ask what >> can be also use >> instead of moxa? >> Also I want to ask if someone has experiences with >> using acupuncture >> during anesthesia? >> >> Thanks for all answers >> >> >> Boris >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http:// > toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > http:// > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > absolutely necessary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 Thread moxa refers to using very fine, rice-grain or smaller sized 'threads' of moxa that are burned directly on acupuncture holes and removed when hot, often repeated several times. Also, there are Japanese 'stick-on' moxas I use with good results with minimal smoke. I also use moxa on needle mostly, almost never poles, except to give to patients to use at home. On Apr 17, 2006, at 12:08 PM, Tom Verhaeghe wrote: > > A professional smoke extractor (like the ones they use in labs, not > the ones > used in pubs etc.) works wonders for me. A company called Nederman > sells > them. I almost always use moxa on needle, I seldom use moxa pole. > But where > can we find more information on thread style moxa? Does thread here > refer to > a very fine roll of moxa? Burnt directly unto the skin? > > Thanks, > > Tom. > > ---- > > > 04/17/06 20:56:45 > Chinese Medicine > Re: moxibustion > > I feel very strongly that moxa shouldn't be abandoned so quickly. > While I certainly understand the limits that modern practices in > medical and mixed used office buildings creates, I feel that > moxabustion has been a mainstay of Chinese medical practice since > antiquity, and in fact predated acupuncture practice. It is > mentioned in the Ma Wang Dui manuscripts, whereas acupuncture appears > later, in the Nei Jing corpus. So we shouldn't be so quick to pass > up on what historically is of perhaps equal importance to needle > therapy. > > I don't know if you could truly document lung qi and yin xu effects > from moxa, depending on style (thread versus pole), quality, air > ventilation, etc. In 24 years of use, I haven't really seen that > effect on myself, at least. To give it up completely, in my opinion, > reduces the efficacy of Chinese medical practice. I think personally > that the pole method of moxa is used too much, the thread style or > moxa on needle style too little. > > > On Apr 17, 2006, at 9:26 AM, acu basha wrote: > >> Hello everyone: >> >> >> Stopped using traditional moxa years ago do to >> questionable side effects (lung qi & yin xu), not to >> mention the inevitable question from other tenants in >> the building, " Who's smoking pot in the building? " >> >> Purchased some Liquid Moxa from Blue Poppy which can >> be used with the TDP Lamps, but haven't put it into >> clinical use. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> Raman Basha, LAC 'Basha' >> San Diego/Encinitas >> >> --- ivanicboris <ivanicboris wrote: >> >>> >>> Hi all >>> I work in pediatric intensive care department and it >>> is not easy to >>> use moxibustion for its smell. I want to ask what >>> can be also use >>> instead of moxa? >>> Also I want to ask if someone has experiences with >>> using acupuncture >>> during anesthesia? >>> >>> Thanks for all answers >>> >>> >>> Boris >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese >> Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com >> >> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http:// >> toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 >> >> http:// >> and adjust >> accordingly. >> >> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside >> the group requires prior permission from the author. >> >> Please consider the environment and only print this message if >> absolutely necessary. >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 Yehuda, I've done a sort of informal 'poll' of practitioners of acupuncture in the San Diego area, and the large majority of who I've asked do not use any moxa at all. This I find to be a disturbing trend, considering that moxa is considered indispensable to the practice of zhen jiu/needles and fire. But, then again, a high percentage of practitioners in my area don't seem to use pulse diagnosis as well. On Apr 17, 2006, at 12:07 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > Hi Z'ev, > > I happened to be introduced recently to a different,hollow type > of smokeless moxa. I would suspect that the amount of CO released > by it would be significantly less. Are you familiar with it. > Concerning your other post, I can't tell you how much I agree with > you as to the efficacy of moxa as a therapy. There is simply > nothing that I have found, (at least in my limited experience)which > can support spleen yang and expel cold as effectively as moxa. > > Yehuda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 Google Tiger Warmer (Thermie) Chinese Medicine , " ivanicboris " <ivanicboris wrote: > > > Hi all > I work in pediatric intensive care department and it is not easy to > use moxibustion for its smell. I want to ask what can be also use > instead of moxa? > Also I want to ask if someone has experiences with using acupuncture > during anesthesia? > > Thanks for all answers > > > Boris > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 Hi there, Just to chuck in my 2 cents worth here. If your looking for a source of heat, you can use moxa boxes, the small metal kind, that take a charcoal stick. They heat up quite nicely and can be placed, say on the abdomen. You can often get them in Asian grocery stores. Otherwise, there are always heat packs that you can get (the ones that have a little " button " inside that start a catalyst reaction and heat up to a standard temperature (about 50C, I think.) Then you boil them to reset the catalyst. I have a couple in the clinic that are made by a Korean company, and they work well. (An australian guy is now using them in wet suits so that when you are surfing in cold water in winter, and start to get too cold, you can start the heat packs up and get another hour or so in the water.) I guess your not getting the supposed therapeutic effect of the herbs that you would get with the traditional moxa rolls or moxa punk. But as far Im concerned, the smokeless moxa is really just a source of heat. I know that they are meant to contain herbs as well, but they are mostly charcoal. As for the hair dryer suggestion, its not a bad call really. I saw a book in china that had pictures suggesting the use of hairdryer and cigarette moxa. (It also included some point location pictures that were cheesecake topless model photos, in languid poses, with the points drawn onto the photo. Very scientific.) Also, since the original query was about treating children. You can always use the ground up raw herbs directly on the abdomen. The paediatric department of the hospital we studied at in China, used different combinations of herbs in a little muslin bag that then went into a pocket on a little apron that you tied around the kids belly. They had different blends, depending on whether they needed warming, or invigorating etc herbs. I think the kids had to wear them for several days though. Im interested to here more from anyone using the liquid moxa, as Ive been curious about it. Regards, Lea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 ---- acu basha 04/17/06 22:46:09 Chinese Medicine Re: moxibustion he does the rice-grain direct moxa on 90% of them. >>>where can we find more information on this kind of moxibustion? Does it never leave a scar? If that practitioner sees 4-5 patients an hour, how can he find the time to perform this kind ox moxibustion of 90% of them? And how does one light this moxa thread? inquisitive Tom : ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 Hi Tom & Everyone: The Acupuncturist referred to is a master at direct moxa. I believe that an incense stick is used to light the rice grain moxa & that he extinguishes the moxa cone directly with his fingers(when the patient indicates it's getting too hot). With two assistants & a receptionist who books in a patient every 15 minutes, he finds time to do the direct moxa on 90% of his patients. He convinces them of the therapeutic benefits. There are 6-7 treatment rooms in his clinic. He works 4 long days. Financially speaking, he is the most successful Acupuncturist in his city. Admittedly he has exhausted his yin. As an aside, he has recently taken the boards for & is considering going to medical school in his late 40's. Wonder if he has a type A personality? The patients sign a release regarding scarring. Please give me some time to contact him regarding what % of his patients experience scarring. Regards, Raman Basha, LAC 'Basha' San Diego/Encinitas --- Tom Verhaeghe <tom.verhaeghe wrote: > > > > ---- > > acu basha > 04/17/06 22:46:09 > Chinese Medicine > Re: moxibustion > > he does the rice-grain > direct moxa on 90% of them. > > > >>>where can we find more information on this kind > of moxibustion? Does it > never leave a scar? If that practitioner sees 4-5 > patients an hour, how can > he find the time to perform this kind ox moxibustion > of 90% of them? And how > does one light this moxa thread? > > > inquisitive Tom : ) > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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