Tamoxifen & herbs

[Guest guest]

Should you prescribe da bu yin wan to a patient taking tamoxifen?

 

My answer is no. Simply because there is no research that I could

find for Chinese herbs with Tamoxifen. The most researched herb for

climacteric symptoms with Tamoxifen is Black Cohosh †" cimicufuga

Racemosa (not to be confused with sheng ma another cimicifuga). Black

Cohosh has been found to not effect estrogen.

 

There are in-vitro, in-vivo rats, and human trials using black cohosh

and tamoxifen with cancer. In vitro studies show that black cohosh

does not induce proliferation of breast cancer cell line MCF-7. When

given to rats with induced endometrial cancers Black Cohosh did not

effect growth or metastizing potential of the primary tumor. In a

human trial RCT Black Cohosh favorably helped reduce hot flashes over

the control group for cancer surviving women taking Tamoxifen. The

recommended length of time of black cohosh use for this purpose is 1

year.

 

Soy is such a mixed bag of contradictory info. it is hard for me to

tell what it does based upon reading the literature. My advice with

soy is to not use it in high doses, certainly avoid protein isolates

and eat it like the Asians do as part of their diet not as an animal

protein substitute and not as protein isolates.

 

With all that said here is a list of what is in Da Bu yin wan:

Sheng di Huang, Gui Ban, Zhi Mu, Huang Bai

 

Sheng di, and zhi mu have beta sitosterols which have been shown to

inhibit proliferation of breast cancer cell lines (as well as reduce

cholesterol). See John Boiks book Natural Compounds in Cancer

Therapy. The link to this entire book has been posted on this chat

group before. Also See full text review of beta sitosterols and

cancer.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=10958802 & query_hl=32 & itool=pubmed_DocSu

 

For more information about cancer and herbs see my blog at

http://www.healthwithcancer.blogspot.com

[Guest guest]

, " Alex Berks " <aberks

wrote:

>

> Sorry I left out what may be acceptable

 

Should you prescribe da bu yin wan to a patient taking tamoxifen?

>

> My answer is no. Simply because there is no research that I could

> find for Chinese herbs with Tamoxifen.

 

What I would do for this situation is acupuncture for sure, fish oils

and an adrenal supplement that did not have glandulars in it. (I have

heard in a lecture, though not confirmed, that glandulars have a lot

of copper in them which helps blood vessel formation and can

contribute to angiogenesis.) Depending on the pattern discrimination

formulas like jia wei xiao yao san may have some use and might not

conflict with the hormonal pathways of estrogen antagonism that

tamoxifen uses. But the key word is might. Even our beloved Dang Gui

(which is in xiao yao san) has been shown in in vitro studies to help

estrogen and non-estrogen breast cancer cell lines grow. So its use

warrants caution with a breast cancer survivor until more is known.

Doesn't that suck! There is a huge step between what is found to

effect something in a test tube versus what happens when metabolized

in the body.

 

One idea I had though not pursued is to look at all the non-estrogenic

pharmaceutical approaches to hot flash control (SSRI's, blood pressure

meds, and Gabapentin) and see what herbs/supplements could equate.

 

Anyone else have any better ideas?

[Guest guest]

Hi Alex, & All,

 

Alex Berks wrote:

> I reposted my earlier post about tamoxifen and herbs with footnotes at

> http:// www.healthwithcancer.blogspot.com Alex Berks L. Ac.

 

The soy isoflavone daidzein improves the capacity of tamoxifen to

prevent mammary tumours. Eur J Cancer. 2005 Mar;41(4):647-54.

Epub 2005 Jan 18. The aim of this study was to determine how the

efficacy of tamoxifen is affected when combined with soy isoflavones.

To address this, female Sprague-Dawley rats were placed on diets

supplemented with tamoxifen, genistein, daidzein, or a combination of

each isoflavone with tamoxifen; a week later mammary tumours were

induced by 7,12 dimethylbenzanthracene. The most effective diet was

the tamoxifen/daidzein combination. It reduced tumour multiplicity by

76%, tumour incidence by 35%, tumour burden by >95%, and increased

tumour latency by 62% compared with positive controls. The

tamoxifen/daidzein combination diet was in all aspects more effective

while the tamoxifen/genistein combination was less effective than the

tamoxifen diet. The tamoxifen/daidzein diet significantly decreased 8-

oxo-deoxyguanosine levels (an indicator of oxidative DNA damage) in

the mammary glands. This study conclusively shows for the first time

the combination of daidzein with tamoxifen produces increased

protection against mammary carcinogenesis, while the combination of

genistein with tamoxifen produces an opposing effect when compared

with tamoxifen alone.

 

Best regards,