Guest guest Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Hi there, Does anyone out there have any experience treating people who are on antidepressant medication (of all types)? I mean people who are currently taking the medication and dont plan to stop taking it any time soon. My partner and I have treated alot of people, esp. women who are on these, and have never had a very good efficacy with herbal medicine with these patients. Alot of them seem to wind up feeling horrible no matter what you give them. Although we have noticed that Chai Hu in particular seems to interact poorly with antidepressants. Does anybody have any ideas or experience with this? I would be interested to hear from you. Thanks, Lea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Lea: I have had excellent results with just using acupuncture. Of course the patient has to be in the treatment room at least once a week. I will start at two times for the first two weeks (if it fits their schedule and finances) - otherwise once a week is usually okay. With some patients I have used Calm Spirit (Health Concerns) with acupuncture to control anxiety. If I think a patient needs Worsley's ID treatment, I do that. Otherwise I start with Aggressive Engergy, draining yin Back Shu points. These are great treatments for starting with depression. Then your regular diagnosis should eventually get to it. I do like using the upper Kidney spirit points. 24 is a pretty powerful one. Hope it helps. Anne leabun1 wrote: > Hi there, > Does anyone out there have any experience treating people who are on > antidepressant medication (of all types)? I mean people who are > currently taking the medication and dont plan to stop taking it any > time soon. > My partner and I have treated alot of people, esp. women who are on > these, and have never had a very good efficacy with herbal medicine > with these patients. Alot of them seem to wind up feeling horrible no > matter what you give them. Although we have noticed that Chai Hu in > particular seems to interact poorly with antidepressants. > Does anybody have any ideas or experience with this? I would be > interested to hear from you. > Thanks, > Lea. > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at > Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the > group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > absolutely necessary. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 Hi there, Thanks for the info on the acupuncture treatment. However, Im not really sure what you are talking about with Calm Spirit (Health Concerns) etc, are these treatment protocols? I would be interested to learn what they are. The acupuncture I learnt was basically the way majority acupuncture is used in China today, and more empirical use of the points. The acupuuncture taught to me here in Australia was the same, although thats probably because all my teachers were expat chinese doctors from the hospital system there. I didnt really ever see a practitioner use even five element acupuncture very much in the hospital system there, it seems far more popular in the west. (Although there were some doctors that specialized in some microsystems such as abdominal acupuncture etc.) I would also be interested to hear from someone with experience with treating patients on antidepressants with herbs, because as I was saying, it interests me that people often have such a poor response when taking the herbs and medication concurrently, anyone with any ideas on what the CM energetics of some western antidepressents may be? Thanks, Lea. Chinese Medicine , Anne Crowley <blazing.valley wrote: > > Lea: > > I have had excellent results with just using acupuncture. Of course the > patient has to be in the treatment room at least once a week. I will > start at two times for the first two weeks (if it fits their schedule > and finances) - otherwise once a week is usually okay. With some > patients I have used Calm Spirit (Health Concerns) with acupuncture to > control anxiety. If I think a patient needs Worsley's ID treatment, I > do that. Otherwise I start with Aggressive Engergy, draining yin Back > Shu points. These are great treatments for starting with depression. > Then your regular diagnosis should eventually get to it. I do like > using the upper Kidney spirit points. 24 is a pretty powerful one. Hope > it helps. > > Anne > > leabun1 wrote: > > > Hi there, > > Does anyone out there have any experience treating people who are on > > antidepressant medication (of all types)? I mean people who are > > currently taking the medication and dont plan to stop taking it any > > time soon. > > My partner and I have treated alot of people, esp. women who are on > > these, and have never had a very good efficacy with herbal medicine > > with these patients. Alot of them seem to wind up feeling horrible no > > matter what you give them. Although we have noticed that Chai Hu in > > particular seems to interact poorly with antidepressants. > > Does anybody have any ideas or experience with this? I would be > > interested to hear from you. > > Thanks, > > Lea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese Medicine > > Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > and > > adjust accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the > > group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > > absolutely necessary. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 Lea, I treat patients on antidepressant medications all the time. Results of CM treatment will depend on multiple factors, so there is no simple answer to your questions. One needs to consider: 1) length of time on antidepressants (the longer the time, the slower CM treatment seems to work). A recent study published in Discover magazine indicated that there are changes in neurological pathways after being on certain antidepressants for more than one year. Sorry, I don't have a link to the article. 2) Dosage (light or heavy) 3) Combinations of medications. Lots of heavy medications, antidepressants, anti-psychotics, tranquilizers or anti-anxiety drugs combined make for a very complex clinical picture and are hard to treat 4) Medication withdrawal I've never noticed interactions of chai hu with patients on antidepressants, but, again, each antidepressant has a slightly to moderately different clinical picture. I've often used chai hu jia long gu mu li tang and never had any problems with these patients. I agree with Anne that acupuncture is never a problem with interactions with these medications, but I have seen its efficacy greatly lessened. I once had a young man who was paxil combined with a sedative, and his response to acupuncture/moxabustion was decidedly reduced. On Mar 16, 2006, at 5:14 PM, leabun1 wrote: > Hi there, > Does anyone out there have any experience treating people who are on > antidepressant medication (of all types)? I mean people who are > currently taking the medication and dont plan to stop taking it any > time soon. > My partner and I have treated alot of people, esp. women who are on > these, and have never had a very good efficacy with herbal medicine > with these patients. Alot of them seem to wind up feeling horrible no > matter what you give them. Although we have noticed that Chai Hu in > particular seems to interact poorly with antidepressants. > Does anybody have any ideas or experience with this? I would be > interested to hear from you. > Thanks, > Lea. > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http:// > toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > http:// > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > absolutely necessary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 leabun1 wrote: > Hi there, > Thanks for the info on the acupuncture treatment. However, Im not > really sure what you are talking about with Calm Spirit (Health > Concerns) Calm Spirit is an herb produced by a California company called Health Concerns. It nourishes heart yin, nourishes blood, and calms the mind (anxiety) > etc, are these treatment protocols? I would be interested > to learn what they are. I was referring to Worsley's possession treatment called Internal Demons. One of the sources that talks about it is Lonnie Jarrett's The Clinical Practice of . His website is www.spiritpathpress.com. The book is expensive. It's in the $90 range (large book with alot of 5 E treatments and Lonnie's own point combinations. The 7 Dragons points to expel the Internal Demons are: Master point 1/4 inch below CV 15 ST25 ST 32 ST 41 put in top to bottom, even insertion to fen depth. When all are in go back and turn the needles 180o counterclockwise. Same order that you put them in. Leave for 20mins. If the patient has possession, it can really feel like a huge relief. There has to be a lot of intention behind this treatment. Let the patient know you are moving out old emotional/and phyical energy that is stuck or unneeded. Tell them to hold the intention that they are letting go of all they don't need. Sometimes I do it and the patient doesn't notice much. You are really only supposed to do it if the patient is possessed. They have a glassy look in their eyes, like a cloud cover, don't feel they are themselves. I then move on to aggressive energy points (also in Lonnies book). They are the Back Shu points for yin meridians. Insert even, hanging down a bit (rather shallow insertion) top to bottom. Leave for 20 mins. Points should turn red. When the red clears, the heat/toxins are removed. This treatment also makes patients feel great. They are both good treatments for starting a patient and excellent for depression and mental anxiety. Then treat the patient as you normally would. In 5E, we would then treat them constituionally (if there are no other blocks to clear, such as entry/exits or akabanes). Hope this helps, Anne > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 Dear Lea, Do you mean that herbs to treat symptoms other than depression are not working effectively when the person is on antidepressants too? In my experience with Shiatsu some people on antidepressants (although not all) seem to have their energetic system in the " flattened, non-reactive " mode. Like if the drug not only switches off their black mood but also the rest of the system. Artemis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 I often times just use herbs while they are on antidepressents and can usually get them off the rx western meds in 2 to 6 months. Calm Spirit is the western name for Gan Mai Da Zao Wan. This will only work if the diagnosis is heart blood/yin def. Anxiety or depression can be caused by liver qi stagnation, liver fire, heart phlegm, heart qi def..... if you use the herbs based on a vague western diagnosis of depression or anxiety you will likely cause negative side effects. its all about the diagnosis. Formulas that can be used, to name a few are, gui pi wan, Gan Mai da zao wan, an shen bu xin wan, xiao yao wan, tian wan bu xin dong, an mian pian, bu zhong yi qi wan, suan zao ren wan, .....what ever formula meets the pattern. The same can be said of western herbs....valerian, sage, lemon balm, st. johns wort, chamomile, lavender, kava kava, juniper, and more. Bob www.acuherbals.com leabun1 <leabun1 wrote: Hi there, Thanks for the info on the acupuncture treatment. However, Im not really sure what you are talking about with Calm Spirit (Health Concerns) etc, are these treatment protocols? I would be interested to learn what they are. The acupuncture I learnt was basically the way majority acupuncture is used in China today, and more empirical use of the points. The acupuuncture taught to me here in Australia was the same, although thats probably because all my teachers were expat chinese doctors from the hospital system there. I didnt really ever see a practitioner use even five element acupuncture very much in the hospital system there, it seems far more popular in the west. (Although there were some doctors that specialized in some microsystems such as abdominal acupuncture etc.) I would also be interested to hear from someone with experience with treating patients on antidepressants with herbs, because as I was saying, it interests me that people often have such a poor response when taking the herbs and medication concurrently, anyone with any ideas on what the CM energetics of some western antidepressents may be? Thanks, Lea. Chinese Medicine , Anne Crowley <blazing.valley wrote: > > Lea: > > I have had excellent results with just using acupuncture. Of course the > patient has to be in the treatment room at least once a week. I will > start at two times for the first two weeks (if it fits their schedule > and finances) - otherwise once a week is usually okay. With some > patients I have used Calm Spirit (Health Concerns) with acupuncture to > control anxiety. If I think a patient needs Worsley's ID treatment, I > do that. Otherwise I start with Aggressive Engergy, draining yin Back > Shu points. These are great treatments for starting with depression. > Then your regular diagnosis should eventually get to it. I do like > using the upper Kidney spirit points. 24 is a pretty powerful one. Hope > it helps. > > Anne > > leabun1 wrote: > > > Hi there, > > Does anyone out there have any experience treating people who are on > > antidepressant medication (of all types)? I mean people who are > > currently taking the medication and dont plan to stop taking it any > > time soon. > > My partner and I have treated alot of people, esp. women who are on > > these, and have never had a very good efficacy with herbal medicine > > with these patients. Alot of them seem to wind up feeling horrible no > > matter what you give them. Although we have noticed that Chai Hu in > > particular seems to interact poorly with antidepressants. > > Does anybody have any ideas or experience with this? I would be > > interested to hear from you. > > Thanks, > > Lea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese Medicine > > Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > and > > adjust accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the > > group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > > absolutely necessary. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 Thankyou for the reply, Just to further clarify, I am talking about patients who are on anti depressants and are being treated for a variety of things, not necessarily the depression per se. In fact, if they are actually seeking treatment for depression then I dont seem to have the same poor response. Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe wrote: > > Lea, > I treat patients on antidepressant medications all the time. > Results of CM treatment will depend on multiple factors, so there is > no simple answer to your questions. > > One needs to consider: > 1) length of time on antidepressants (the longer the time, the slower > CM treatment seems to work). A recent study published in Discover > magazine indicated that there are changes in neurological pathways > after being on certain antidepressants for more than one year. > Sorry, I don't have a link to the article. > > 2) Dosage (light or heavy) > > 3) Combinations of medications. Lots of heavy medications, > antidepressants, anti-psychotics, tranquilizers or anti-anxiety drugs > combined make for a very complex clinical picture and are hard to treat > > 4) Medication withdrawal > > I've never noticed interactions of chai hu with patients on > antidepressants, but, again, each antidepressant has a slightly to > moderately different clinical picture. I've often used chai hu jia > long gu mu li tang and never had any problems with these patients. > > I agree with Anne that acupuncture is never a problem with > interactions with these medications, but I have seen its efficacy > greatly lessened. I once had a young man who was paxil combined with > a sedative, and his response to acupuncture/moxabustion was decidedly > reduced. > > > > On Mar 16, 2006, at 5:14 PM, leabun1 wrote: > > > Hi there, > > Does anyone out there have any experience treating people who are on > > antidepressant medication (of all types)? I mean people who are > > currently taking the medication and dont plan to stop taking it any > > time soon. > > My partner and I have treated alot of people, esp. women who are on > > these, and have never had a very good efficacy with herbal medicine > > with these patients. Alot of them seem to wind up feeling horrible no > > matter what you give them. Although we have noticed that Chai Hu in > > particular seems to interact poorly with antidepressants. > > Does anybody have any ideas or experience with this? I would be > > interested to hear from you. > > Thanks, > > Lea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > > Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http:// > > toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > http:// > > and adjust > > accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > > absolutely necessary. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 I do not believe anti-depressants have any negative effects on acupuncture and there are actually several studies showing a synergistic effects with acupuncture analgesia. Depression on the other hand can influence every system in the body and can make treatment much more difficult. Because i see many patients that have severe chronic pain syndromes i treat many that are on multiple meds. I have not found meds to be a problem at all. The problem is that many of the patients on these meds have more physical pathologies. Some time ago i heard a lecture by someone that stated that he gets 100% results in treating pain syndromes unless the patients are on western meds. That to me means he probably sees 100% very mild cases. You do not see many failed back patients for example that are not on multiple meds. Lets not look for excuses when treatment fails. Oakland, CA 94609 - leabun1 Chinese Medicine Saturday, March 18, 2006 4:23 PM Re: Antidepressants and Chinese Med. Thankyou for the reply, Just to further clarify, I am talking about patients who are on anti depressants and are being treated for a variety of things, not necessarily the depression per se. In fact, if they are actually seeking treatment for depression then I dont seem to have the same poor response. Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe wrote: > > Lea, > I treat patients on antidepressant medications all the time. > Results of CM treatment will depend on multiple factors, so there is > no simple answer to your questions. > > One needs to consider: > 1) length of time on antidepressants (the longer the time, the slower > CM treatment seems to work). A recent study published in Discover > magazine indicated that there are changes in neurological pathways > after being on certain antidepressants for more than one year. > Sorry, I don't have a link to the article. > > 2) Dosage (light or heavy) > > 3) Combinations of medications. Lots of heavy medications, > antidepressants, anti-psychotics, tranquilizers or anti-anxiety drugs > combined make for a very complex clinical picture and are hard to treat > > 4) Medication withdrawal > > I've never noticed interactions of chai hu with patients on > antidepressants, but, again, each antidepressant has a slightly to > moderately different clinical picture. I've often used chai hu jia > long gu mu li tang and never had any problems with these patients. > > I agree with Anne that acupuncture is never a problem with > interactions with these medications, but I have seen its efficacy > greatly lessened. I once had a young man who was paxil combined with > a sedative, and his response to acupuncture/moxabustion was decidedly > reduced. > > > > On Mar 16, 2006, at 5:14 PM, leabun1 wrote: > > > Hi there, > > Does anyone out there have any experience treating people who are on > > antidepressant medication (of all types)? I mean people who are > > currently taking the medication and dont plan to stop taking it any > > time soon. > > My partner and I have treated alot of people, esp. women who are on > > these, and have never had a very good efficacy with herbal medicine > > with these patients. Alot of them seem to wind up feeling horrible no > > matter what you give them. Although we have noticed that Chai Hu in > > particular seems to interact poorly with antidepressants. > > Does anybody have any ideas or experience with this? I would be > > interested to hear from you. > > Thanks, > > Lea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > > Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http:// > > toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > http:// > > and adjust > > accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > > absolutely necessary. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 Hi Alon, I am aware of many studies that show that acupuncture potentiates the effects of opiate analgesics in the body, however, I was not aware that this same held true for antidepressants, could you refer me to these? Also, you have a good point that the key factor may be the patients depression rather than the medications. However, I was not trying to make excuses for the treatment, although I readily admit that it may be an error in my treatment, which was why I threw it out here on this forum to find out what other people think or have experienced. Rather, this was something that both my partner (also a chinese medicine practitioner) and myself, have noticed, and we wondered what we could do and if anybody had any thoughts on why this was happening. (Oh, and the treatments dont necessarily " fail " for what they were intended for, the patients just feel emotionally horrible and dont want to keep taking the herbs.) I think though, that analgesic medications for pain syndromes and antidepressants, are, pharmacologically speaking, very different. Thanks, Lea. Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus DOM " <alonmarcus wrote: > > I do not believe anti-depressants have any negative effects on acupuncture and there are actually several studies showing a synergistic effects with acupuncture analgesia. Depression on the other hand can influence every system in the body and can make treatment much more difficult. Because i see many patients that have severe chronic pain syndromes i treat many that are on multiple meds. I have not found meds to be a problem at all. The problem is that many of the patients on these meds have more physical pathologies. Some time ago i heard a lecture by someone that stated that he gets 100% results in treating pain syndromes unless the patients are on western meds. That to me means he probably sees 100% very mild cases. You do not see many failed back patients for example that are not on multiple meds. Lets not look for excuses when treatment fails. > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > leabun1 > Chinese Medicine > Saturday, March 18, 2006 4:23 PM > Re: Antidepressants and Chinese Med. > > > Thankyou for the reply, > Just to further clarify, I am talking about patients who are on anti > depressants and are being treated for a variety of things, not > necessarily the depression per se. In fact, if they are actually > seeking treatment for depression then I dont seem to have the same > poor response. > > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev > Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > Lea, > > I treat patients on antidepressant medications all the time. > > Results of CM treatment will depend on multiple factors, so there > is > > no simple answer to your questions. > > > > One needs to consider: > > 1) length of time on antidepressants (the longer the time, the > slower > > CM treatment seems to work). A recent study published in > Discover > > magazine indicated that there are changes in neurological > pathways > > after being on certain antidepressants for more than one year. > > Sorry, I don't have a link to the article. > > > > 2) Dosage (light or heavy) > > > > 3) Combinations of medications. Lots of heavy medications, > > antidepressants, anti-psychotics, tranquilizers or anti- anxiety > drugs > > combined make for a very complex clinical picture and are hard to > treat > > > > 4) Medication withdrawal > > > > I've never noticed interactions of chai hu with patients on > > antidepressants, but, again, each antidepressant has a slightly > to > > moderately different clinical picture. I've often used chai hu > jia > > long gu mu li tang and never had any problems with these patients. > > > > I agree with Anne that acupuncture is never a problem with > > interactions with these medications, but I have seen its efficacy > > greatly lessened. I once had a young man who was paxil combined > with > > a sedative, and his response to acupuncture/moxabustion was > decidedly > > reduced. > > > > > > > > On Mar 16, 2006, at 5:14 PM, leabun1 wrote: > > > > > Hi there, > > > Does anyone out there have any experience treating people who > are on > > > antidepressant medication (of all types)? I mean people who are > > > currently taking the medication and dont plan to stop taking it > any > > > time soon. > > > My partner and I have treated alot of people, esp. women who are > on > > > these, and have never had a very good efficacy with herbal > medicine > > > with these patients. Alot of them seem to wind up feeling > horrible no > > > matter what you give them. Although we have noticed that Chai Hu > in > > > particular seems to interact poorly with antidepressants. > > > Does anybody have any ideas or experience with this? I would be > > > interested to hear from you. > > > Thanks, > > > Lea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > > > Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http:// > > > toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > http:// > > > and > adjust > > > accordingly. > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication > outside > > > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > > > absolutely necessary. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 I am aware of many studies that show that acupuncture potentiates the effects of opiate analgesics in the body, however, I was not aware that this same held true for antidepressants, could you refer me to these >>>>> You can see one ref in my book but i have seen several Oakland, CA 94609 - leabun1 Chinese Medicine Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:44 PM Re: Antidepressants and Chinese Med. Hi Alon, I am aware of many studies that show that acupuncture potentiates the effects of opiate analgesics in the body, however, I was not aware that this same held true for antidepressants, could you refer me to these? Also, you have a good point that the key factor may be the patients depression rather than the medications. However, I was not trying to make excuses for the treatment, although I readily admit that it may be an error in my treatment, which was why I threw it out here on this forum to find out what other people think or have experienced. Rather, this was something that both my partner (also a chinese medicine practitioner) and myself, have noticed, and we wondered what we could do and if anybody had any thoughts on why this was happening. (Oh, and the treatments dont necessarily " fail " for what they were intended for, the patients just feel emotionally horrible and dont want to keep taking the herbs.) I think though, that analgesic medications for pain syndromes and antidepressants, are, pharmacologically speaking, very different. Thanks, Lea. Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus DOM " <alonmarcus wrote: > > I do not believe anti-depressants have any negative effects on acupuncture and there are actually several studies showing a synergistic effects with acupuncture analgesia. Depression on the other hand can influence every system in the body and can make treatment much more difficult. Because i see many patients that have severe chronic pain syndromes i treat many that are on multiple meds. I have not found meds to be a problem at all. The problem is that many of the patients on these meds have more physical pathologies. Some time ago i heard a lecture by someone that stated that he gets 100% results in treating pain syndromes unless the patients are on western meds. That to me means he probably sees 100% very mild cases. You do not see many failed back patients for example that are not on multiple meds. Lets not look for excuses when treatment fails. > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > leabun1 > Chinese Medicine > Saturday, March 18, 2006 4:23 PM > Re: Antidepressants and Chinese Med. > > > Thankyou for the reply, > Just to further clarify, I am talking about patients who are on anti > depressants and are being treated for a variety of things, not > necessarily the depression per se. In fact, if they are actually > seeking treatment for depression then I dont seem to have the same > poor response. > > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev > Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > Lea, > > I treat patients on antidepressant medications all the time. > > Results of CM treatment will depend on multiple factors, so there > is > > no simple answer to your questions. > > > > One needs to consider: > > 1) length of time on antidepressants (the longer the time, the > slower > > CM treatment seems to work). A recent study published in > Discover > > magazine indicated that there are changes in neurological > pathways > > after being on certain antidepressants for more than one year. > > Sorry, I don't have a link to the article. > > > > 2) Dosage (light or heavy) > > > > 3) Combinations of medications. Lots of heavy medications, > > antidepressants, anti-psychotics, tranquilizers or anti- anxiety > drugs > > combined make for a very complex clinical picture and are hard to > treat > > > > 4) Medication withdrawal > > > > I've never noticed interactions of chai hu with patients on > > antidepressants, but, again, each antidepressant has a slightly > to > > moderately different clinical picture. I've often used chai hu > jia > > long gu mu li tang and never had any problems with these patients. > > > > I agree with Anne that acupuncture is never a problem with > > interactions with these medications, but I have seen its efficacy > > greatly lessened. I once had a young man who was paxil combined > with > > a sedative, and his response to acupuncture/moxabustion was > decidedly > > reduced. > > > > > > > > On Mar 16, 2006, at 5:14 PM, leabun1 wrote: > > > > > Hi there, > > > Does anyone out there have any experience treating people who > are on > > > antidepressant medication (of all types)? I mean people who are > > > currently taking the medication and dont plan to stop taking it > any > > > time soon. > > > My partner and I have treated alot of people, esp. women who are > on > > > these, and have never had a very good efficacy with herbal > medicine > > > with these patients. Alot of them seem to wind up feeling > horrible no > > > matter what you give them. Although we have noticed that Chai Hu > in > > > particular seems to interact poorly with antidepressants. > > > Does anybody have any ideas or experience with this? I would be > > > interested to hear from you. > > > Thanks, > > > Lea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > > > Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http:// > > > toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > http:// > > > and > adjust > > > accordingly. > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication > outside > > > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > > > absolutely necessary. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 I actually think its more difficult to deal with high dose narcotics than antidepressants. I find that if i treat these people based on pathology, (and i have to say that i am not using only CM in most of my patients), these patients do just as well Oakland, CA 94609 - leabun1 Chinese Medicine Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:44 PM Re: Antidepressants and Chinese Med. Hi Alon, I am aware of many studies that show that acupuncture potentiates the effects of opiate analgesics in the body, however, I was not aware that this same held true for antidepressants, could you refer me to these? Also, you have a good point that the key factor may be the patients depression rather than the medications. However, I was not trying to make excuses for the treatment, although I readily admit that it may be an error in my treatment, which was why I threw it out here on this forum to find out what other people think or have experienced. Rather, this was something that both my partner (also a chinese medicine practitioner) and myself, have noticed, and we wondered what we could do and if anybody had any thoughts on why this was happening. (Oh, and the treatments dont necessarily " fail " for what they were intended for, the patients just feel emotionally horrible and dont want to keep taking the herbs.) I think though, that analgesic medications for pain syndromes and antidepressants, are, pharmacologically speaking, very different. Thanks, Lea. Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus DOM " <alonmarcus wrote: > > I do not believe anti-depressants have any negative effects on acupuncture and there are actually several studies showing a synergistic effects with acupuncture analgesia. Depression on the other hand can influence every system in the body and can make treatment much more difficult. Because i see many patients that have severe chronic pain syndromes i treat many that are on multiple meds. I have not found meds to be a problem at all. The problem is that many of the patients on these meds have more physical pathologies. Some time ago i heard a lecture by someone that stated that he gets 100% results in treating pain syndromes unless the patients are on western meds. That to me means he probably sees 100% very mild cases. You do not see many failed back patients for example that are not on multiple meds. Lets not look for excuses when treatment fails. > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > leabun1 > Chinese Medicine > Saturday, March 18, 2006 4:23 PM > Re: Antidepressants and Chinese Med. > > > Thankyou for the reply, > Just to further clarify, I am talking about patients who are on anti > depressants and are being treated for a variety of things, not > necessarily the depression per se. In fact, if they are actually > seeking treatment for depression then I dont seem to have the same > poor response. > > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev > Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > Lea, > > I treat patients on antidepressant medications all the time. > > Results of CM treatment will depend on multiple factors, so there > is > > no simple answer to your questions. > > > > One needs to consider: > > 1) length of time on antidepressants (the longer the time, the > slower > > CM treatment seems to work). A recent study published in > Discover > > magazine indicated that there are changes in neurological > pathways > > after being on certain antidepressants for more than one year. > > Sorry, I don't have a link to the article. > > > > 2) Dosage (light or heavy) > > > > 3) Combinations of medications. Lots of heavy medications, > > antidepressants, anti-psychotics, tranquilizers or anti- anxiety > drugs > > combined make for a very complex clinical picture and are hard to > treat > > > > 4) Medication withdrawal > > > > I've never noticed interactions of chai hu with patients on > > antidepressants, but, again, each antidepressant has a slightly > to > > moderately different clinical picture. I've often used chai hu > jia > > long gu mu li tang and never had any problems with these patients. > > > > I agree with Anne that acupuncture is never a problem with > > interactions with these medications, but I have seen its efficacy > > greatly lessened. I once had a young man who was paxil combined > with > > a sedative, and his response to acupuncture/moxabustion was > decidedly > > reduced. > > > > > > > > On Mar 16, 2006, at 5:14 PM, leabun1 wrote: > > > > > Hi there, > > > Does anyone out there have any experience treating people who > are on > > > antidepressant medication (of all types)? I mean people who are > > > currently taking the medication and dont plan to stop taking it > any > > > time soon. > > > My partner and I have treated alot of people, esp. women who are > on > > > these, and have never had a very good efficacy with herbal > medicine > > > with these patients. Alot of them seem to wind up feeling > horrible no > > > matter what you give them. Although we have noticed that Chai Hu > in > > > particular seems to interact poorly with antidepressants. > > > Does anybody have any ideas or experience with this? I would be > > > interested to hear from you. > > > Thanks, > > > Lea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > > > Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http:// > > > toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > http:// > > > and > adjust > > > accordingly. > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication > outside > > > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > > > absolutely necessary. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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