Guest guest Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 In the NanJing, as you know, certain pulse images are listed as pertaining to specific organs/elements. How does these pulse images translate into TCM pulse images? would ie a NanJing wiry pulse feel the same as a TCM wiry pulse?! I have not yet read other classics - just begun, so, please bear with me if answers are to be found in other classics. I have just recently started to study the NanJing and WHAT a revelation!!! Best regards, Thomas Sorensen L.Ac., Denmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Thomas, There are different threads in the pulse literature and in practice of mai zhen/vessel (pulse) diagnosis. You have the thread that largely culminates in Li Shih-zhen's bin hu mai xue/Lakeside Master's Pulse Studies, which is based on the location of the zang-fu/ viscera-bowels in upper middle and lower burners, largely reliant on the 28 pulse qualities. Then you have another thread extending from the Su Wen corpus that is more associated with the channels, their repletion or emptiness. Both threads are expressed somewhat in the Nan Jing (see difficulty 18). The questions you ask are fairly complex. The wiry pulse is the same, I believe, both in the Nan Jing and modern TCM, but what is more interesting is the context in which each is used. In difficulties 15 and 16, seasonal qualities of pulse images are discussed, in a five phase format. As well as the wiry pulse' association with spring, wood, liver, etc., you have the hair-like pulse/mao mai associated with the lungs, metal and autumn, the stone- like pulse/shi mai associated with the kidneys, water and winter, and the hook-like pulse/gou mai associated with the heart, fire and summer. Spleen qi is seen as the balanced, huan/leisurely quality that gives the pulse its pliability and strength. I am working on a personal Nan Jing commentary text as we speak with a focus on the vessel/pulse diagnosis difficulties (chapters), 1-22. Hope this is helpful, On Feb 23, 2006, at 2:00 AM, Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen wrote: > In the NanJing, as you know, certain pulse images are listed as > pertaining to specific organs/elements. How does these pulse images > translate into TCM pulse images? would ie a NanJing wiry pulse feel > the > same as a TCM wiry pulse?! > > I have not yet read other classics - just begun, so, please bear > with me > if answers are to be found in other classics. I have just recently > started to study the NanJing and WHAT a revelation!!! > > Best regards, > > Thomas Sorensen > L.Ac., Denmark > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2006 Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 Mr. Rosenberg, Thank you for your reply - It helps a lot. It got me unstuck! When your commentary is done... I would love to read it! Maybe you could help me clear this one up too... The wiry pulse described as the pulse image of the Liver and the wiry pulse described as the pulse image for Spring are they identical? They have differing translations/descriptions (ie wiry/springy) in Paul Unschulds rendering (chapters 4 and 15), but unfortunately I do not read chinese, so I can not compare.. Thank you! Best regards, Thomas Sorensen L.Ac., Denmark skrev: > Thomas, > There are different threads in the pulse literature and in > practice of mai zhen/vessel (pulse) diagnosis. You have the thread > that largely culminates in Li Shih-zhen's bin hu mai xue/Lakeside > Master's Pulse Studies, which is based on the location of the zang-fu/ > viscera-bowels in upper middle and lower burners, largely reliant on > the 28 pulse qualities. Then you have another thread extending from > the Su Wen corpus that is more associated with the channels, their > repletion or emptiness. Both threads are expressed somewhat in the > Nan Jing (see difficulty 18). > The questions you ask are fairly complex. The wiry pulse is the > same, I believe, both in the Nan Jing and modern TCM, but what is > more interesting is the context in which each is used. In > difficulties 15 and 16, seasonal qualities of pulse images are > discussed, in a five phase format. As well as the wiry pulse' > association with spring, wood, liver, etc., you have the hair-like > pulse/mao mai associated with the lungs, metal and autumn, the stone- > like pulse/shi mai associated with the kidneys, water and winter, and > the hook-like pulse/gou mai associated with the heart, fire and > summer. Spleen qi is seen as the balanced, huan/leisurely quality > that gives the pulse its pliability and strength. > I am working on a personal Nan Jing commentary text as we speak > with a focus on the vessel/pulse diagnosis difficulties (chapters), > 1-22. > > Hope this is helpful, > > > > On Feb 23, 2006, at 2:00 AM, Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen wrote: > > >> In the NanJing, as you know, certain pulse images are listed as >> pertaining to specific organs/elements. How does these pulse images >> translate into TCM pulse images? would ie a NanJing wiry pulse feel >> the >> same as a TCM wiry pulse?! >> >> I have not yet read other classics - just begun, so, please bear >> with me >> if answers are to be found in other classics. I have just recently >> started to study the NanJing and WHAT a revelation!!! >> >> Best regards, >> >> Thomas Sorensen >> L.Ac., Denmark >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 Thomas, In chapter fifteen, the character is xian2 弦, which is the same as the modern wiry pulse, although the context in the Nan Jing is slightly different than in modern TCM. The term wiry, however, may be used interchangably to the best of my knowledge. In chapter four, it is different terms, lao2 牢 which means firm, and chang2 长 which means long. It is describing a comparison between how the kidney and liver pulses feel at the deep positions (the kidney pulse feels soft, and replete when the fingers press to the bone). It is a different context for the pulse. On Feb 24, 2006, at 10:24 PM, Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen wrote: > Mr. Rosenberg, > > Thank you for your reply - It helps a lot. It got me unstuck! > When your commentary is done... I would love to read it! > > Maybe you could help me clear this one up too... > > The wiry pulse described as the pulse image of the Liver and the wiry > pulse described as the pulse image for Spring are they identical? They > have differing translations/descriptions (ie wiry/springy) in Paul > Unschulds rendering (chapters 4 and 15), but unfortunately I do not > read > chinese, so I can not compare.. > > Thank you! > > Best regards, > > Thomas Sorensen > L.Ac., Denmark > > > > skrev: >> Thomas, >> There are different threads in the pulse literature and in >> practice of mai zhen/vessel (pulse) diagnosis. You have the thread >> that largely culminates in Li Shih-zhen's bin hu mai xue/Lakeside >> Master's Pulse Studies, which is based on the location of the zang- >> fu/ >> viscera-bowels in upper middle and lower burners, largely reliant on >> the 28 pulse qualities. Then you have another thread extending from >> the Su Wen corpus that is more associated with the channels, their >> repletion or emptiness. Both threads are expressed somewhat in the >> Nan Jing (see difficulty 18). >> The questions you ask are fairly complex. The wiry pulse is the >> same, I believe, both in the Nan Jing and modern TCM, but what is >> more interesting is the context in which each is used. In >> difficulties 15 and 16, seasonal qualities of pulse images are >> discussed, in a five phase format. As well as the wiry pulse' >> association with spring, wood, liver, etc., you have the hair-like >> pulse/mao mai associated with the lungs, metal and autumn, the stone- >> like pulse/shi mai associated with the kidneys, water and winter, and >> the hook-like pulse/gou mai associated with the heart, fire and >> summer. Spleen qi is seen as the balanced, huan/leisurely quality >> that gives the pulse its pliability and strength. >> I am working on a personal Nan Jing commentary text as we speak >> with a focus on the vessel/pulse diagnosis difficulties (chapters), >> 1-22. >> >> Hope this is helpful, >> >> >> >> On Feb 23, 2006, at 2:00 AM, Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen wrote: >> >> >>> In the NanJing, as you know, certain pulse images are listed as >>> pertaining to specific organs/elements. How does these pulse images >>> translate into TCM pulse images? would ie a NanJing wiry pulse feel >>> the >>> same as a TCM wiry pulse?! >>> >>> I have not yet read other classics - just begun, so, please bear >>> with me >>> if answers are to be found in other classics. I have just recently >>> started to study the NanJing and WHAT a revelation!!! >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Thomas Sorensen >>> L.Ac., Denmark >>> >>> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Mr. Rosenberg, Thank you for your reply! Best regards, Thomas Sorensen L.Ac., Denmark skrev: > Thomas, > In chapter fifteen, the character is xian2 弦, which is the same > as the modern wiry pulse, although the context in the Nan Jing is > slightly different than in modern TCM. The term wiry, however, may > be used interchangably to the best of my knowledge. > In chapter four, it is different terms, lao2 牢 which means > firm, and chang2 长 which means long. It is describing a > comparison between how the kidney and liver pulses feel at the deep > positions (the kidney pulse feels soft, and replete when the fingers > press to the bone). It is a different context for the pulse. > > > On Feb 24, 2006, at 10:24 PM, Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen wrote: > > >> Mr. Rosenberg, >> >> Thank you for your reply - It helps a lot. It got me unstuck! >> When your commentary is done... I would love to read it! >> >> Maybe you could help me clear this one up too... >> >> The wiry pulse described as the pulse image of the Liver and the wiry >> pulse described as the pulse image for Spring are they identical? They >> have differing translations/descriptions (ie wiry/springy) in Paul >> Unschulds rendering (chapters 4 and 15), but unfortunately I do not >> read >> chinese, so I can not compare.. >> >> Thank you! >> >> Best regards, >> >> Thomas Sorensen >> L.Ac., Denmark >> >> >> >> skrev: >> >>> Thomas, >>> There are different threads in the pulse literature and in >>> practice of mai zhen/vessel (pulse) diagnosis. You have the thread >>> that largely culminates in Li Shih-zhen's bin hu mai xue/Lakeside >>> Master's Pulse Studies, which is based on the location of the zang- >>> fu/ >>> viscera-bowels in upper middle and lower burners, largely reliant on >>> the 28 pulse qualities. Then you have another thread extending from >>> the Su Wen corpus that is more associated with the channels, their >>> repletion or emptiness. Both threads are expressed somewhat in the >>> Nan Jing (see difficulty 18). >>> The questions you ask are fairly complex. The wiry pulse is the >>> same, I believe, both in the Nan Jing and modern TCM, but what is >>> more interesting is the context in which each is used. In >>> difficulties 15 and 16, seasonal qualities of pulse images are >>> discussed, in a five phase format. As well as the wiry pulse' >>> association with spring, wood, liver, etc., you have the hair-like >>> pulse/mao mai associated with the lungs, metal and autumn, the stone- >>> like pulse/shi mai associated with the kidneys, water and winter, and >>> the hook-like pulse/gou mai associated with the heart, fire and >>> summer. Spleen qi is seen as the balanced, huan/leisurely quality >>> that gives the pulse its pliability and strength. >>> I am working on a personal Nan Jing commentary text as we speak >>> with a focus on the vessel/pulse diagnosis difficulties (chapters), >>> 1-22. >>> >>> Hope this is helpful, >>> >>> >>> >>> On Feb 23, 2006, at 2:00 AM, Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> In the NanJing, as you know, certain pulse images are listed as >>>> pertaining to specific organs/elements. How does these pulse images >>>> translate into TCM pulse images? would ie a NanJing wiry pulse feel >>>> the >>>> same as a TCM wiry pulse?! >>>> >>>> I have not yet read other classics - just begun, so, please bear >>>> with me >>>> if answers are to be found in other classics. I have just recently >>>> started to study the NanJing and WHAT a revelation!!! >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Thomas Sorensen >>>> L.Ac., Denmark >>>> >>>> >>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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