Guest guest Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 Hello Karen Tarnower, You were my manager back at WFM in 1980-1981 if I'm not mistaken. I was one of the front-end girls. Heard from Ralph or someone that you were one of the first ones to go to acupuncture school. Coumadin will be monitored by using the Protime and INR, as Alon alludes to. That is the MD's responsibility, and the INR has a target value for the patient's condition. What I would try to determine is what the patient's condition is. For example, if they had a TIA (baby stroke) or a DVT (leg clot) or pulmonary ebolism, that all indicates different locations where the qi, and then the blood, gets stuck. Alon may have a level of experience where he feels comfortable using all types of herbal formulas, but I personally would exclude the stronger blood movers (ie-herbs stronger than Dan Shen or Ji Xue Teng) I had a personal correspondence with Dr Gascoigne of Ireland and he says the blood movers by themselves will not change the INR, but even so, I wouldn't want to get into the additive effects of the blood movers and Coumadin or Lovenox. It could get messy. What Dr Gascoine points out is that Coumadin et al consume Yin and Blood which makes sense, just as a formula like Si Ni San(drying acrid herbs) will consume yin and blood. So I might use an herbal formula to increase qi circulation in the head, legs or lungs or heart (depending on the reason for Coumadin px) and then yin and blood nourishing agents. Karen, feel free to contact me off list too-let me know where and how your practice is going if you like. My website is www.fivelements.com Gabrielle Mathieu Five Elements Acupuncture and Herbs Austin, TX 78723 512-699-6493 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 Chinese medicine's broad category of huo xue/blood quickeners, including san yu or hua yu stasis dissipating or stasis transforming medicinals, are not the same as the pharmacological category of blood thinning drugs, and there has been no proven interaction of the two. Again, while caution is advised with herbal treatment in patients on coumadin, we should not assume any negative interactions of Chinese herbs and Western medications without direct experience or reliable studies to that fact. Such books as Chen's " Chinese Medical Herbology and Pharmacology " make the same assumption. Several herbs are listed as " may interact with " .. . based on theoretical possibilities which have not been ratified in clinical situations. Some of this problem comes from mistranslation again. I have materia medicas on my shelf that translate categories such as medicinals that calm the spirit as 'tranquilizers', medicinals that disinhibit dampness as 'diuretics'. Clearly, there is little pharmacological relationship between the herbs in these categories and drugs that could be classed as tranquilizers or diuretics. While a pharmacological understanding of herbal constituents is important and essential, are we so much into the biomedical head space that we can no longer see the differences between herbs and drugs? Chinese medicine is much safer than the use of most pharmaceutical drugs, and we shouldn't have to be on the defensive all of the time. While there are understandable political and economic issues here, we should never confuse them with seeking accurate knowledge without fear. On Jan 25, 2006, at 6:41 PM, Five Elements wrote: > Alon may have a level of experience where he feels > comfortable using all types of herbal formulas, but I > personally would exclude the stronger blood movers > (ie-herbs stronger than Dan Shen or Ji Xue Teng) I had a > personal correspondence with Dr Gascoigne of Ireland and he > says the blood movers by themselves will not change the > INR, but even so, I wouldn't want to get into the additive > effects of the blood movers and Coumadin or Lovenox. It > could get messy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 Zev, Until we have a more united profession this may be all for naught. A certain sector has one belief which is more looking to prevent malpractice lawsuits and maybe overly concerned with such (especially influenced by legislators, medical boards and attorneys). We should have a professional association issue press releases or something and notify all practitioners that there simply is no reliable info or study to confirm this rumor. This could be the opening into research that maybe some schools need to look to undertake. It sure seems to be necessity if we are to continue to provide herbs. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 All very interesting. You know it is a good day when you can learn something new, or have old assumptions challenged. It just makes me wonder how much else I take for granted that I learned that isn't true... Thanks! Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Thursday, January 26, 2006 11:36 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Digest Number 1271/Blood thinners Chinese medicine's broad category of huo xue/blood quickeners, including san yu or hua yu stasis dissipating or stasis transforming medicinals, are not the same as the pharmacological category of blood thinning drugs, and there has been no proven interaction of the two. Again, while caution is advised with herbal treatment in patients on coumadin, we should not assume any negative interactions of Chinese herbs and Western medications without direct experience or reliable studies to that fact. Such books as Chen's " Chinese Medical Herbology and Pharmacology " make the same assumption. Several herbs are listed as " may interact with " .. . based on theoretical possibilities which have not been ratified in clinical situations. Some of this problem comes from mistranslation again. I have materia medicas on my shelf that translate categories such as medicinals that calm the spirit as 'tranquilizers', medicinals that disinhibit dampness as 'diuretics'. Clearly, there is little pharmacological relationship between the herbs in these categories and drugs that could be classed as tranquilizers or diuretics. While a pharmacological understanding of herbal constituents is important and essential, are we so much into the biomedical head space that we can no longer see the differences between herbs and drugs? Chinese medicine is much safer than the use of most pharmaceutical drugs, and we shouldn't have to be on the defensive all of the time. While there are understandable political and economic issues here, we should never confuse them with seeking accurate knowledge without fear. On Jan 25, 2006, at 6:41 PM, Five Elements wrote: > Alon may have a level of experience where he feels > comfortable using all types of herbal formulas, but I > personally would exclude the stronger blood movers > (ie-herbs stronger than Dan Shen or Ji Xue Teng) I had a > personal correspondence with Dr Gascoigne of Ireland and he > says the blood movers by themselves will not change the > INR, but even so, I wouldn't want to get into the additive > effects of the blood movers and Coumadin or Lovenox. It > could get messy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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