Guest guest Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 Hi Everybody! Worth considering: 1. Lack of standards 2. lack of uniformity of standards 3. regional accreditation 4. MDs and DCs want to marginalize OM make " acupuncturists " work under direction of a " professional " 5. admission and academic standards 6. " DAOM " designation 7. NOMAA, Doctor of Oriental Medicine (OMD) educational program 8. Medicare recognition, hospital practice privileges 9. Lab Coats 10. bare shoulders, arms, chests and bellies belly rings and gluteal tattoos dirty flannel shirt and torn pants 11. TCM school administrators are too greedy 12. Cadaver dissection 13. Unsterile needles 14. OSHA 15. AMA and/or DC lobby dollars 16. thousands of dollars donated for a student scholarship fund at MY TCM school, the only thing that happened was that the administrator started driving a MUCH nicer car a couple of weeks later 17. " massage " requirement 18. " high-overhead " fashion in which western medical clinics operate, putting us under their direction will only result in increased costs 19. all passive and new-age 20. No true profession survives in the U.S. without protecting itself 21. what other professions are trying to do to the practice of TCM in this country 22. " Professional Ethics and Responsibility " 23. try to discuss problems threatening the profession in a really quiet, meek fashion, everyone skips over the posts 24. why are so many OM practitioners " bi-polar cat ladies " Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 Pete: These are points worth considering except for maybe 24? But I will be the alchemist and ignore that one. The one that gets my attention right off is #5 Admission and academic standards. Each school has their own curriculum and mine certainly could have been better in certain areas. I think what is missing in our schools, we supplement when we get out. This is an issue I will table for the moment. Teaching: well that is another kettle of fish. I was community college teacher for 9 years full time and taught part time in 4 year schools. We were evaluated after almost every class and if one area was weak, we were " talked to. " I learned how to teach in those 9 years, and became quite good at it. I have to say I had to leave all that behind when I went to acupuncture school. (Even the 4 year state school I attended had research professors with teaching skills that left a lot to be desired.) Admission standards could be a lot tighter. I have heard more than once " I went to acupuncture school because I couldn't get in the chiropractic or physicians assistant school. " I would like to see that change. I really feel a Bachelors Degree should be required to enter a professional school at a Master's level or Masters degree. When I went to the University of Maryland and entered the M.B.A. (Master in Business Admnistration) program, I needed an undergraduate degree with a GPA of 3.0 or better (not so easy in a large university like Maryland - went there undergrad too), 3 glowing references from professors, and a certain score on the GMAT, a standardized apptitude test and of course extracurricular participation. When I came out of school, I worked in planning, marketing, and operations analysis for various organizations. In none of those positiions did I have someone's health in my hands. I think to call ourselves health care professionals, close to the level of MD's, we have to have professional entrance standards in these schools. Can you imagine wondering if your MD has a bachelors degree? I know there are chiros and naturopaths (I knew one that had an AA in engineering) who use the term doctor. I do think it's inappropriate. I do think think if you have a Ph.D (even a distance one - since these traditional programs can consume half your life) it would be appropriate to use that title. Well - I have probably ruffled some feathers - but I believe we said we have to tackle the tough issues. I also will add that I have been to some great healers who have none of these credentials. I just think when you carry a health professional title similar to an MD, bachelors level should be the floor. Anne petetheisen wrote: > Hi Everybody! > > Worth considering: > > 1. Lack of standards > > 2. lack of uniformity of standards > > 3. regional accreditation > > 4. MDs and DCs want to marginalize OM make " acupuncturists " work under > direction of a " professional " > > 5. admission and academic standards > > 6. " DAOM " designation > > 7. NOMAA, Doctor of Oriental Medicine (OMD) educational program > > 8. Medicare recognition, hospital practice privileges > > 9. Lab Coats > > 10. bare shoulders, arms, chests and bellies belly rings and gluteal > tattoos dirty flannel shirt and torn pants > > 11. TCM school administrators are too greedy > > 12. Cadaver dissection > > 13. Unsterile needles > > 14. OSHA > > 15. AMA and/or DC lobby dollars > > 16. thousands of dollars donated for a student scholarship fund at MY > TCM school, the only thing that happened was that the administrator > started driving a MUCH nicer car a couple of weeks later > > 17. " massage " requirement > > 18. " high-overhead " fashion in which western medical clinics operate, > putting us under their direction will only result in increased costs > > 19. all passive and new-age > > 20. No true profession survives in the U.S. without protecting itself > > 21. what other professions are trying to do to the practice of TCM in > this country > > 22. " Professional Ethics and Responsibility " > > 23. try to discuss problems threatening the profession in a really > quiet, meek fashion, everyone skips over the posts > > 24. why are so many OM practitioners " bi-polar cat ladies " > > Regards, > > Pete > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the > group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > absolutely necessary. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 Anne Crowley wrote: > Pete: These are points worth considering except for maybe 24? But I > will be the alchemist and ignore that one. Hi Anne! There is no question that #24 could have been more diplomatically put. However, the image problem is real. Strict attention to your pick, Admission Standards, would tend to fix it over the long term. I don't think I want the job of fixing it in the short term. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 I, too, have concerns about entrance requirements, particularly as applies to the mental/emotional/psychological stability of future acupuncturists. At my school, there was a sense that the 'universe' would sort these potentially unsafe practitioners out by not providing patients. mmmm, I dunno, not good enough. Karen Anne Crowley wrote: >Pete: These are points worth considering except for maybe 24? But I >will be the alchemist and ignore that one. > >The one that gets my attention right off is #5 Admission and academic >standards. > >Each school has their own curriculum and mine certainly could have been >better in certain areas. I think what is missing in our schools, we >supplement when we get out. This is an issue I will table for the moment. > >Teaching: well that is another kettle of fish. I was community college >teacher for 9 years full time and taught part time in 4 year schools. >We were evaluated after almost every class and if one area was weak, we >were " talked to. " I learned how to teach in those 9 years, and became >quite good at it. I have to say I had to leave all that behind when I >went to acupuncture school. (Even the 4 year state school I attended >had research professors with teaching skills that left a lot to be desired.) > >Admission standards could be a lot tighter. I have heard more than once > " I went to acupuncture school because I couldn't get in the chiropractic >or physicians assistant school. " I would like to see that change. > >I really feel a Bachelors Degree should be required to enter a >professional school at a Master's level or Masters degree. When I went >to the University of Maryland and entered the M.B.A. (Master in Business >Admnistration) program, I needed an undergraduate degree with a GPA of >3.0 or better (not so easy in a large university like Maryland - went >there undergrad too), 3 glowing references from professors, and a >certain score on the GMAT, a standardized apptitude test and of course >extracurricular participation. When I came out of school, I worked in >planning, marketing, and operations analysis for various organizations. >In none of those positiions did I have someone's health in my hands. I >think to call ourselves health care professionals, close to the level of >MD's, we have to have professional entrance standards in these schools. >Can you imagine wondering if your MD has a bachelors degree? > >I know there are chiros and naturopaths (I knew one that had an AA in >engineering) who use the term doctor. I do think it's inappropriate. I >do think think if you have a Ph.D (even a distance one - since these >traditional programs can consume half your life) it would be appropriate >to use that title. > >Well - I have probably ruffled some feathers - but I believe we said we >have to tackle the tough issues. I also will add that I have been to >some great healers who have none of these credentials. I just think >when you carry a health professional title similar to an MD, bachelors >level should be the floor. > >Anne > > > >petetheisen wrote: > > > >>Hi Everybody! >> >>Worth considering: >> >>1. Lack of standards >> >>2. lack of uniformity of standards >> >>3. regional accreditation >> >>4. MDs and DCs want to marginalize OM make " acupuncturists " work under >>direction of a " professional " >> >>5. admission and academic standards >> >>6. " DAOM " designation >> >>7. NOMAA, Doctor of Oriental Medicine (OMD) educational program >> >>8. Medicare recognition, hospital practice privileges >> >>9. Lab Coats >> >>10. bare shoulders, arms, chests and bellies belly rings and gluteal >>tattoos dirty flannel shirt and torn pants >> >>11. TCM school administrators are too greedy >> >>12. Cadaver dissection >> >>13. Unsterile needles >> >>14. OSHA >> >>15. AMA and/or DC lobby dollars >> >>16. thousands of dollars donated for a student scholarship fund at MY >>TCM school, the only thing that happened was that the administrator >>started driving a MUCH nicer car a couple of weeks later >> >>17. " massage " requirement >> >>18. " high-overhead " fashion in which western medical clinics operate, >>putting us under their direction will only result in increased costs >> >>19. all passive and new-age >> >>20. No true profession survives in the U.S. without protecting itself >> >>21. what other professions are trying to do to the practice of TCM in >>this country >> >>22. " Professional Ethics and Responsibility " >> >>23. try to discuss problems threatening the profession in a really >>quiet, meek fashion, everyone skips over the posts >> >>24. why are so many OM practitioners " bi-polar cat ladies " >> >>Regards, >> >>Pete >> >> >> >> >>Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, >>http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 >> >> >> and >>adjust accordingly. >> >>Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the >>group requires prior permission from the author. >> >>Please consider the environment and only print this message if >>absolutely necessary. >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 In a message dated 1/26/2006 12:12:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, alonmarcus writes: Except that very few programs will admit you if you do not have a degree That is only because of the number of people applying to got in medical school, if just look at the minimum requirements, it is 2 yrs of college. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 Are you aware that MD's do not have to have a BS degree? It is similar to DC and I think, ND programs that you have 3 years of undergrad and certain classes or they need to be taken prior to matriculation there. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 correct Oakland, CA 94609 - KarateStan Chinese Medicine Thursday, January 26, 2006 1:45 PM Re: 24 points lost in the rhetoric In a message dated 1/26/2006 12:12:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, alonmarcus writes: Except that very few programs will admit you if you do not have a degree That is only because of the number of people applying to got in medical school, if just look at the minimum requirements, it is 2 yrs of college. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 Are these well accredited med school?. I am really shocked to hear this. I needed an undergraduate degree to get a Masters in Business Administration. Anne wrote: > correct > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > KarateStan > Chinese Medicine > Thursday, January 26, 2006 1:45 PM > Re: 24 points lost in the rhetoric > > > > In a message dated 1/26/2006 12:12:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > alonmarcus writes: > > Except that very few programs will admit you if you do not have a > degree > > > > That is only because of the number of people applying to got in > medical > school, if just look at the minimum requirements, it is 2 yrs of > college. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 An MD is not an academic degree its a professional degree. Oakland, CA 94609 - Anne Crowley Chinese Medicine Thursday, January 26, 2006 6:37 PM Re: 24 points lost in the rhetoric Are these well accredited med school?. I am really shocked to hear this. I needed an undergraduate degree to get a Masters in Business Administration. Anne wrote: > correct > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > KarateStan > Chinese Medicine > Thursday, January 26, 2006 1:45 PM > Re: 24 points lost in the rhetoric > > > > In a message dated 1/26/2006 12:12:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > alonmarcus writes: > > Except that very few programs will admit you if you do not have a > degree > > > > That is only because of the number of people applying to got in > medical > school, if just look at the minimum requirements, it is 2 yrs of > college. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2006 Report Share Posted January 28, 2006 I will just make one more (I think) point about this. When I was going to school which is many moons ago, baby boom era, it was extremely difficult to get into a med school. One had to get A's in some pretty tough science courses, in universities that were trying to weed you out. Then after you had this immpecable GPA, your father might still have to play golf with the dean of the med school. Dr.'s began going to schools overseas because they couldn't get in US schools. Have the standards of admission changed? Another point about Pete's comments - The AMA has served in union-like fashion for MD's. They, for many years had assured that prices would stay high by limiting the supply of doctors. One way to do this is fewer slots in med schools and tighter standards. This automatically drives up the wage. (The craft union model) What they weren't counting on was the managed care dragon which began setting wages that insurance companies would reimburse. By the way, the law profession did not take this tack. Slots were relatively plentiful in schools, although a certain academic standard is required. Therefore wages for starting lawyers were and I believe are, quite low. Anne wrote: > correct > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > KarateStan > Chinese Medicine > Thursday, January 26, 2006 1:45 PM > Re: 24 points lost in the rhetoric > > > > In a message dated 1/26/2006 12:12:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > alonmarcus writes: > > Except that very few programs will admit you if you do not have a > degree > > > > That is only because of the number of people applying to got in > medical > school, if just look at the minimum requirements, it is 2 yrs of > college. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2006 Report Share Posted January 28, 2006 Have the standards of admission changed? >>>> They are more difficult than ever Oakland, CA 94609 - Anne Crowley Chinese Medicine Friday, January 27, 2006 5:53 PM Re: 24 points lost in the rhetoric I will just make one more (I think) point about this. When I was going to school which is many moons ago, baby boom era, it was extremely difficult to get into a med school. One had to get A's in some pretty tough science courses, in universities that were trying to weed you out. Then after you had this immpecable GPA, your father might still have to play golf with the dean of the med school. Dr.'s began going to schools overseas because they couldn't get in US schools. Have the standards of admission changed? Another point about Pete's comments - The AMA has served in union-like fashion for MD's. They, for many years had assured that prices would stay high by limiting the supply of doctors. One way to do this is fewer slots in med schools and tighter standards. This automatically drives up the wage. (The craft union model) What they weren't counting on was the managed care dragon which began setting wages that insurance companies would reimburse. By the way, the law profession did not take this tack. Slots were relatively plentiful in schools, although a certain academic standard is required. Therefore wages for starting lawyers were and I believe are, quite low. Anne wrote: > correct > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > KarateStan > Chinese Medicine > Thursday, January 26, 2006 1:45 PM > Re: 24 points lost in the rhetoric > > > > In a message dated 1/26/2006 12:12:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > alonmarcus writes: > > Except that very few programs will admit you if you do not have a > degree > > > > That is only because of the number of people applying to got in > medical > school, if just look at the minimum requirements, it is 2 yrs of > college. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2006 Report Share Posted January 28, 2006 In a message dated 1/28/2006 5:38:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, petetheisen writes: How the insurance companies got the right to dictate to the medical profession is unclear. Looks like restraint of trade to me. It started back in the 60's when the doctors office started doing the insurance forms, before that time the patient did the forms and then was reimbursed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2006 Report Share Posted January 28, 2006 Anne Crowley wrote: <snip> > Another point about Pete's comments - The AMA has served in > union-like fashion for MD's. They, for many years had assured that > prices would stay high by limiting the supply of doctors. One way to > do this is fewer slots in med schools and tighter standards. This > automatically drives up the wage. (The craft union model) What they > weren't counting on was the managed care dragon which began setting > wages that insurance companies would reimburse. Hi Anne! I think the concierge practice model is a response to the " dragon " and other economic forces depressing doctor's finances. Concierge docs sort of say forget insurance, Medicare and the like, just pay us direct. Here is an article by a lawyer discussing it. How the insurance companies got the right to dictate to the medical profession is unclear. Looks like restraint of trade to me. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2006 Report Share Posted January 28, 2006 petetheisen wrote: <snip> > Here is an article by a lawyer discussing it. Hi Everybody! I thought I put in a link: <http://www.physiciansnews.com/business/204.kalogredis.html> Must be losing it, I was 61 yesterday. Alzheimers for sure. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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