European and American herbs in Chinese Medicine

[Guest guest]

Does anyone know of work done to categorize herbs in the americas and

europe (like hyssop, feverfew, elderberry, etc.) in terms of chinese

medicine?

 

Jaimye

[Guest guest]

Try Jeremy Ross' book, " Combining Western Herbs and Chinese

Medicine " . It is very well done.

 

 

On Jan 25, 2006, at 1:46 PM, Jaimye wrote:

 

> Does anyone know of work done to categorize herbs in the americas and

> europe (like hyssop, feverfew, elderberry, etc.) in terms of chinese

> medicine?

>

> Jaimye

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ok now I see the book. It's 970 pages! It only classifies 50 herbs.

 

Here's food for thought:

 

What if China had trade sanctions against it? Or maybe some other

reason the chinese herbs cannot be exported anymore... Do you think we

could use formulas of western herbs to replace, with the same

effectiveness, chinese herbal formulas?

 

There is one main disadvantage to all your medicine coming from one

place: what if it is no longer available, either as a whole or by the

part?

 

Some chinese herbs are harder to get than others, but I can rarely

find all the herbs to a prescription, and even some patent formulas

aren't available anymore or are hard to get(or made illegal like

ephedra). Some patent formulas are even different by

manufacturer(added some herbs or substituted).

 

I'm curious what the practitioner does to stock the proper herbs or

formulas for the patients in their clinic.

 

Jaimye

[Guest guest]

Hi Jaimye

 

This is just my 2 cents worth, as I am a beginner at herbs.

 

I believe that a huge amount can be achieved with just a small

selection of herbs. While it may be true that in certain

circumstances one particular rare herb may be necessary to get the

result, nonetheless one can treat a huge range of conditions by

using a very small range of herbs to balance yin and yang, qi and

blood, heat and cold, etc, etc.

 

I am told that the famous Li Dong Yuan spent much of his life working

almost exclusively with Buzhongyiqi tang and varying the quantities

of its components.

 

Can any more qualified herbalists comment on this?

 

David

 

Chinese Medicine , " Jaimye "

<handsometiger58 wrote:

>

> Ok now I see the book. It's 970 pages! It only classifies 50

herbs.

>

> Here's food for thought:

>

> What if China had trade sanctions against it? Or maybe some other

> reason the chinese herbs cannot be exported anymore... Do you think

we

> could use formulas of western herbs to replace, with the same

> effectiveness, chinese herbal formulas?

>

> There is one main disadvantage to all your medicine coming from one

> place: what if it is no longer available, either as a whole or by

the

> part?

>

> Some chinese herbs are harder to get than others, but I can rarely

> find all the herbs to a prescription, and even some patent formulas

> aren't available anymore or are hard to get(or made illegal like

> ephedra). Some patent formulas are even different by

> manufacturer(added some herbs or substituted).

>

> I'm curious what the practitioner does to stock the proper herbs or

> formulas for the patients in their clinic.

>

> Jaimye

>

[Guest guest]

David,

I agree. Learning a few formulas very well is a great place to

begin, and even hang out for awhile. There is a great book I

recommend, " The Heart Transmission of Medicine " by Liu Yi-ren, which

divides prescriptions into just a few families, such as xiao chai hu

tang, ping wei san, wu ling san, si jun zi tang, and si wu tang.

Each of these prescriptions is the " root " of several other

prescriptions.

 

Li Dong-yuan indeed built an entire 'web' of prescriptions around

bu zhong yi qi tang/Supplement the Middle Augment the Qi Decoction,

although he also created several other prescriptions on different

roots. The Shang Han Lun, as well, begins with gui zhi tang/Cinnamon

Twig Decoction, and builds several prescriptions from it based on

transmutations from a core pattern.

 

The genius in our tradition always expresses itself in the

interface of simplicity out of great complexity.

 

Hopefully at some point in the future we will be able to do the

same with native medicinals. There was a great Chinese herbalist who

lived in the Pacific Northwest in the late 19th century (Doc Hay) who

built prescriptions combining Chinese imports, when available, with

locally growing medicinals in the Oregon desert and mountain regions.

 

 

On Feb 5, 2006, at 10:53 PM, David Gordon wrote:

 

> Hi Jaimye

>

> This is just my 2 cents worth, as I am a beginner at herbs.

>

> I believe that a huge amount can be achieved with just a small

> selection of herbs. While it may be true that in certain

> circumstances one particular rare herb may be necessary to get the

> result, nonetheless one can treat a huge range of conditions by

> using a very small range of herbs to balance yin and yang, qi and

> blood, heat and cold, etc, etc.

>

> I am told that the famous Li Dong Yuan spent much of his life working

> almost exclusively with Buzhongyiqi tang and varying the quantities

> of its components.

>

> Can any more qualified herbalists comment on this?

>

> David

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Jaimye "

> <handsometiger58 wrote:

>>

>> Ok now I see the book. It's 970 pages! It only classifies 50

> herbs.

>>

>> Here's food for thought:

>>

>> What if China had trade sanctions against it? Or maybe some other

>> reason the chinese herbs cannot be exported anymore... Do you think

> we

>> could use formulas of western herbs to replace, with the same

>> effectiveness, chinese herbal formulas?

>>

>> There is one main disadvantage to all your medicine coming from one

>> place: what if it is no longer available, either as a whole or by

> the

>> part?

>>

>> Some chinese herbs are harder to get than others, but I can rarely

>> find all the herbs to a prescription, and even some patent formulas

>> aren't available anymore or are hard to get(or made illegal like

>> ephedra). Some patent formulas are even different by

>> manufacturer(added some herbs or substituted).

>>

>> I'm curious what the practitioner does to stock the proper herbs or

>> formulas for the patients in their clinic.

>>

>> Jaimye

>>

>

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[Guest guest]

David Gordon wrote:

<snip>

> I am told that the famous Li Dong Yuan spent much of his life working

> almost exclusively with Buzhongyiqi tang and varying the quantities

> of its components.

>

> Can any more qualified herbalists comment on this?

 

Hi David!

 

I haven't the hubris to claim to be " more qualified " , but I will say

that I have been using and prescribing lower dosages of most everything

the past couple of years.

 

Although natural, herbs nevertheless can produce side effects in large

dosages. Not only that, the patients are invariably using western meds

as well and hitting them with fifteen or twenty different herbs on top

of all that, in such a case - less is more.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

I have over the past 33 years of living with and studying with various

Lakota, Ponca, Dineh, and Cree Wikasa Wakan been attemptintg to place this

learning into the realm of CCM/TCM. I am however only a student when it

comes to herbs and quite far from being the Master Herbalist this task IMO

takes.

Doc

 

On 2/6/06, <zrosenbe wrote:

>

> David,

> I agree. Learning a few formulas very well is a great place to

> begin, and even hang out for awhile. There is a great book I

> recommend, " The Heart Transmission of Medicine " by Liu Yi-ren, which

> divides prescriptions into just a few families, such as xiao chai hu

> tang, ping wei san, wu ling san, si jun zi tang, and si wu tang.

> Each of these prescriptions is the " root " of several other

> prescriptions.

>

> Li Dong-yuan indeed built an entire 'web' of prescriptions around

> bu zhong yi qi tang/Supplement the Middle Augment the Qi Decoction,

> although he also created several other prescriptions on different

> roots. The Shang Han Lun, as well, begins with gui zhi tang/Cinnamon

> Twig Decoction, and builds several prescriptions from it based on

> transmutations from a core pattern.

>

> The genius in our tradition always expresses itself in the

> interface of simplicity out of great complexity.

>

> Hopefully at some point in the future we will be able to do the

> same with native medicinals. There was a great Chinese herbalist who

> lived in the Pacific Northwest in the late 19th century (Doc Hay) who

> built prescriptions combining Chinese imports, when available, with

> locally growing medicinals in the Oregon desert and mountain regions.

>

>

> On Feb 5, 2006, at 10:53 PM, David Gordon wrote:

>

> > Hi Jaimye

> >

> > This is just my 2 cents worth, as I am a beginner at herbs.

> >

> > I believe that a huge amount can be achieved with just a small

> > selection of herbs. While it may be true that in certain

> > circumstances one particular rare herb may be necessary to get the

> > result, nonetheless one can treat a huge range of conditions by

> > using a very small range of herbs to balance yin and yang, qi and

> > blood, heat and cold, etc, etc.

> >

> > I am told that the famous Li Dong Yuan spent much of his life working

> > almost exclusively with Buzhongyiqi tang and varying the quantities

> > of its components.

> >

> > Can any more qualified herbalists comment on this?

> >

> > David

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , " Jaimye "

> > <handsometiger58 wrote:

> >>

> >> Ok now I see the book. It's 970 pages! It only classifies 50

> > herbs.

> >>

> >> Here's food for thought:

> >>

> >> What if China had trade sanctions against it? Or maybe some other

> >> reason the chinese herbs cannot be exported anymore... Do you think

> > we

> >> could use formulas of western herbs to replace, with the same

> >> effectiveness, chinese herbal formulas?

> >>

> >> There is one main disadvantage to all your medicine coming from one

> >> place: what if it is no longer available, either as a whole or by

> > the

> >> part?

> >>

> >> Some chinese herbs are harder to get than others, but I can rarely

> >> find all the herbs to a prescription, and even some patent formulas

> >> aren't available anymore or are hard to get(or made illegal like

> >> ephedra). Some patent formulas are even different by

> >> manufacturer(added some herbs or substituted).

> >>

> >> I'm curious what the practitioner does to stock the proper herbs or

> >> formulas for the patients in their clinic.

> >>

> >> Jaimye

> >>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://

> > toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

> >

> > http://

> > and adjust

> > accordingly.

> >

> > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

> > the group requires prior permission from the author.

> >

> > Please consider the environment and only print this message if

> > absolutely necessary.

> >