Flaming versus hard discussion: There IS a difference!

[Guest guest]

Hi All, & Alon & MIke,

 

> Let's not be afraid to discuss difficult issues nor come up with

> solutions.

 

Colleagues, I agree 100%

 

There is NO PROBLEM raising and discussing (with passion, if

necessary) all issues relating to the profession. BUT, netiquette on

civilised Lists requires that discussion be on the ARGUMENT and NOT

on the PERSON, or his/her qualifications / weaknesses, foibles, etc.

 

FLAMING (ad-hominem, attack or insult) is an offence punishable by

instant expulsion from several professional lists that I know.

 

Lists that allow flaming do not work well because they turn members off,

If List masters do not control flaming, the lists can break down because

one uncontrolled flame may lead into another, until an unseemly

slanging match develops.

 

There is NO PLACE for flaming on professional lists, IMO. So, let us

tackle sensitive issues hard, but with sensitivity and respect for the

integrity and opinions of other colleagues on the list.

 

What consenting adults do in privacy (for example by off-list discussion)

is their own affair. However, much of what we do in private should not

be displayed in public.

 

Best regards,

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/24/2006 1:47:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

Let's not forget that others did attack her as well (did they get

expelled?). I would hope that we are able to bring up and continue

discussions on the topics she mentioned as I think they are critical to our

professional survival. Maybe others do not see it but there is enough

concern we should be creating a plan of action to deal with these rather

then wait and see.

 

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

 

It takes two to fight, other people were feeding this. I believe they are

also a problem.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Totally agree phil. There is no excuse for the vitriol, no matter how good

the points were.

Jason

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is NO PROBLEM raising and discussing (with passion, if

necessary) all issues relating to the profession. BUT, netiquette on

civilised Lists requires that discussion be on the ARGUMENT and NOT

on the PERSON, or his/her qualifications / weaknesses, foibles, etc.

 

FLAMING (ad-hominem, attack or insult) is an offence punishable by

instant expulsion from several professional lists that I know.

 

Lists that allow flaming do not work well because they turn members off,

If List masters do not control flaming, the lists can break down because

one uncontrolled flame may lead into another, until an unseemly

slanging match develops.

 

There is NO PLACE for flaming on professional lists, IMO. So, let us

tackle sensitive issues hard, but with sensitivity and respect for the

integrity and opinions of other colleagues on the list.

 

What consenting adults do in privacy (for example by off-list discussion)

is their own affair. However, much of what we do in private should not

be displayed in public.

 

Best regards,

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Toxic is the way I would describe Rachel's way of communication.....by toxic i

mean whem something becomes too extreme and can cause harm. And I really don't

care how useful or accurate her observations might be. Personally I find it

embarassing to consider people like this in our profession. Well....maybe in

extremely low doseages! Let's just think of her with loving kindness. That's the

lesson i will try to leave with .

Turiya Hill

 

 

[Guest guest]

This is very true Mike and I would like to see this side cleared up as well.

Personally, I have no preferences for new members, old members, friends or

relatives, the rules are the rules and its that straight forward.

 

I did inform Rachel twice to take her point up with Mark, but I don't think

she did. So perhaps we should clear up the two points Rachel raised,

Robert's message editing and Dr Holmes decorate degree.

 

Warm regards,

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M.

Editor

Times

07786 198900

enquiries

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike

Bowser

24 January 2006 18:46

Chinese Medicine

Re: Flaming versus hard discussion: There IS a difference!

 

 

Let's not forget that others did attack her as well (did they get

expelled?). I would hope that we are able to bring up and continue

discussions on the topics she mentioned as I think they are critical to our

professional survival. Maybe others do not see it but there is enough

concern we should be creating a plan of action to deal with these rather

then wait and see.

 

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Could we wrap up this discussion?

 

Thanks,

 

Mark

[Guest guest]

Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

> we should clear up the two points Rachel raised,

> Robert's message editing and Dr Holmes decorate degree.

 

Hi Attilio!

 

Rachel was remarkably thin-skinned to the replay of her own statements

considering the acidity of her own style. We have seen people cut/paste

parts of old messages before and we have let it pass without comment. I

do not think Robert had any evil agenda but rather, merely wanted to

illustrate that she had made assumptions about him, which indeed she had.

 

It is a shame that so many feathers were ruffled, but sometimes we all

have a healing crisis. Rachel could have raised her points without the

personal jabs and Robert was correct to call attention to the personal

nature of the jabs. Anyone following the thread would recognize the

words from former posts, someone new to the thread could tell by the

formatting that this was a compilation. Rachel saw this as dishonest,

but I doubt that Robert intended to deceive anyone.

 

Now, everyone please remember, none of us are perfect. Rachel has done

us a service by raising a number of issues that we have been complacent

about. Discussion of these issues is proper even if we can't abide a

steady diet of Rachel's style. There are many who don't like my style.

 

Back in the day before there were any USA TCM doctorate degrees it was

very common amongst ourselves to address each other as " Doctor " , I often

continue to do this myself. The schools actively encouraged it, when I

interviewed at my school the headmaster was very clear that the program

was " physician level " - graduates would *not* be acupuncture assistants

or technicians or anything like that. At the graduation ceremonies each

graduate was addressed by the master of ceremonies as " Dr. Whoever " .

 

There was also the point made that " Doctor " is not only an academic

degree, but also an occupational or job title.

 

As the possibility of there actually being an accredited Doctorate

program developed in TCM this practice gradually was reduced. It turned

out that our headmaster had learned his profession at his grandfather's

knee and had no formal TCM education at all! He did however have a state

license for which he had passed the NCCA exam. He eventually changed all

his printed stuff to call himself " Professor " .

 

Some states have the title of DOM, LAc, A.P., Acupuncture Physician and

so on codified into their practice laws, if you are licensed as an

acupuncturist in those states then you may publicly use those titles. I

personally do not use " Dr. " *in*front* of my name on printed stuff, but

I do add the letters after my name and somewhere near it I provide an

explanation of the letters. <http://tinyurl.com/8mqob>

 

A number of acupuncturists license in a state that allows this and then

mention their Florida or Rhode Island license under this in small

letters. This is why people from most anywhere may have Florida or Rhode

Island licenses along with their local state's license. Many, many

acupuncturists push it to the point of putting " Dr. " in front of their

name and the state doesn't do anything about it.

 

Since this practice of considering ourselves doctors in all but the most

technical sense is so widespread and so tolerated I think it seems a tad

petty for *us* to pick on Dr. Holmes for his use of " dr holmes " as a

signature line. But then, Rachel would not have picked up on it but for

the sleuthing into " Rochville University " or whatever it was.

 

I think we have bigger fish to fry than these two issues but that is

just my opinion.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Might I ask us why we continue to put down Rachel in her absence? It seems

to be a waste of time and bandwidth. Let's get to the real meat of things

and let the dialogue begin.

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

 

 

 

> " jason davies " <jason

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

>RE: Flaming versus hard discussion: There IS a difference!

>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:38:19 -0000

>

>

>Totally agree phil. There is no excuse for the vitriol, no matter how good

>the points were.

>Jason

>

>

>

>

>

>

>There is NO PROBLEM raising and discussing (with passion, if

>necessary) all issues relating to the profession. BUT, netiquette on

>civilised Lists requires that discussion be on the ARGUMENT and NOT

>on the PERSON, or his/her qualifications / weaknesses, foibles, etc.

>

>FLAMING (ad-hominem, attack or insult) is an offence punishable by

>instant expulsion from several professional lists that I know.

>

>Lists that allow flaming do not work well because they turn members off,

>If List masters do not control flaming, the lists can break down because

>one uncontrolled flame may lead into another, until an unseemly

>slanging match develops.

>

>There is NO PLACE for flaming on professional lists, IMO. So, let us

>tackle sensitive issues hard, but with sensitivity and respect for the

>integrity and opinions of other colleagues on the list.

>

>What consenting adults do in privacy (for example by off-list discussion)

>is their own affair. However, much of what we do in private should not

>be displayed in public.

>

>Best regards,

>

>

>

>Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

>http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

>

> and adjust

>accordingly.

>

>Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

>requires prior permission from the author.

>

>Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

>necessary.

>

[Guest guest]

mike Bowser wrote:

<snip>

> get to the real meat of things and let the dialogue begin.

 

Hi Mike!

 

Who made that suggestion of AFL-CIO? Chris, I think.

 

I wonder what the AFL-CIO people would advise us to do with that list of

24 concerns? I also wonder what the AFL-CIO lobbyists would do about the

Acupuncture Medicare bill that has been tied up *in*committee* for some

12 years?

 

If you have a cavity you could take herbs or you could go to a dentist.

If you have pneumonia you could do acupuncture or you could drop by the

emergency room. If someone is breaking into your house you could pray or

you could call the police (I recommend both).

 

I ask all blessings upon our acupuncturist organizations, but they

might not be the allies we need for the current battles. I think the

AFL-CIO is worth a careful consideration. For one thing, they could

start by insisting that all unionized employees in every industry have

full acupuncture coverage in their health plans as the contracts are

renewed.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Pete:

 

I am still having trouble seeing the value of the union. Many of us

work for ourselves. Are we going to demand higher wages for ourselves.

If we have an employee on the front dest are they going to be a member

of the union? You can pay them $20 per hr and benefits instead of $10

that you can afford at the moment.

 

I know you don't want to hear this Pete, but medicare being approved is

only going to depress wages and they are already too low. I also have

heard some horrow stories, e.g. an osteopath with a good heart that took

medicare and the govt sued her for $150,000 that she did not have, for

medicare fraud, that she didn't have a clue she was committing. It

scares the begeebees out of me. I would rather discount an older person

and stay away from this govt insurance company.

 

Union membership as I understand is declining (not sure about the

services sector). The AFL-CIO just lost 30,000 jobs in Detroit.

If they require everyone to cover acupuncture on their benefit plans,

will the acupuncturist have to be a member of " the plan? " Again

depressed wages. As for us purchasing a health plan we can afford, I

just don't think that benefit is worth all the negatives. Lobbying for

us - do they really know the acupuncturist world - it seems so diverse

as it is. How are they going to understand it. I guess with a

committee of us to explain it - whatever that is. I also question the

declining membership and the image perception of it. I guess I will go

back to MD's. Are they unionized? I guess some HMO doctors are.

Overall what will it do to our professional image.

 

I agree we need some strong organizations to look at what is going on

with our profession and I am more than willing to pay due to such a

group. I remember Bob Duggan (founder of TAI) saying he saved the

acupuncture practice in MD from demise on several occasions (over 30

years), but he could not do it alone forever. I just don't think the

union is the answer.

 

Anne

 

 

 

 

 

 

petetheisen wrote:

 

> mike Bowser wrote:

> <snip>

> > get to the real meat of things and let the dialogue begin.

>

> Hi Mike!

>

> Who made that suggestion of AFL-CIO? Chris, I think.

>

> I wonder what the AFL-CIO people would advise us to do with that list of

> 24 concerns? I also wonder what the AFL-CIO lobbyists would do about the

> Acupuncture Medicare bill that has been tied up *in*committee* for some

> 12 years?

>

> If you have a cavity you could take herbs or you could go to a dentist.

> If you have pneumonia you could do acupuncture or you could drop by the

> emergency room. If someone is breaking into your house you could pray or

> you could call the police (I recommend both).

>

> I ask all blessings upon our acupuncturist organizations, but they

> might not be the allies we need for the current battles. I think the

> AFL-CIO is worth a careful consideration. For one thing, they could

> start by insisting that all unionized employees in every industry have

> full acupuncture coverage in their health plans as the contracts are

> renewed.

>

> Regards,

>

> Pete

>

>

>

>

> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

>

> and

> adjust accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the

> group requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if

> absolutely necessary.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Anne Crowley wrote:

 

Hi Anne!

 

Inline:

 

> I am still having trouble seeing the value of the union. Many of us

> work for ourselves. Are we going to demand higher wages for

> ourselves.

 

I think the first thing we need to demand is equality with the other

healing professions. If we need to add some school entrance

requirements, CEU requirements, and deny entry to at least *some* of the

kooks that would be a reasonable trade off. Existing licensees would be

grandfathered.

 

> If we have an employee on the front dest are they going to be a

> member of the union?

 

Not unless they are licensed acupuncturists. We don't have to call it a

union, anyway. The AMA and the NEA are surely unions, yet they call

themselves " professional associations " .

 

> I know you don't want to hear this Pete, but medicare being approved

> is only going to depress wages and they are already too low.

 

MDs are now approved for Medicare, but not all of them take it. If you

want you could set up a concierge practice and only take rich people for

cash, not even taking checks or credit cards. You would NEVER *have* to

take Medicare, lots of MDs don't.

 

If Medicare coverage of acupuncture is approved, the 60% of insurance

companies who model their coverage on Medicare will cover acupuncture.

This has been said over and over again, sometimes on this list, and yet

the issue continues to be misunderstood. Has anyone *ever* heard this

before?

 

> Union membership as I understand is declining (not sure about the

> services sector). The AFL-CIO just lost 30,000 jobs in Detroit.

 

That was Ford Motor, UAW <http://www.uaw.org/>. UAW is not a member of

AFL-CIO, although they likely agree on many issues. The job cuts are

over the next six years or so, not *yesterday* as the headlines make it

sound. Half or more of that will be retirements and other normal

attrition. They put out a big sensationalized figure like that, though,

because the people who might buy Ford stock get excited at the idea of

workers being laid off and the stock price goes up - I bet Ford stock is

up today (checking now) yep.

 

" Many analysts were doubtful Ford's " Way Forward " plan would have a

major impact but Ford's share price jumped 5.32 percent to close at 8.32

dollars on the back of a better-than-expected profit report and the

restructuring plan. " <http://tinyurl.com/crwf5>

 

The stockholder class people think the money that used to go to workers'

wages will suddenly appear in their dividend checks - they absolutely

love the idea of taking working folks' money away from them.

 

> If they require everyone to cover acupuncture on their benefit plans,

> will the acupuncturist have to be a member of " the plan? " Again

> depressed wages. As for us purchasing a health plan we can afford, I

> just don't think that benefit is worth all the negatives.

 

If you don't like it you don't have to take it. It isn't like we all

worked for a big company's 10,000 practitioner acupuncture department

and the others voted for a union shop. I understand that about a third

of MDs are in the AMA.

 

> Lobbying for us - do they really know the acupuncturist world

 

Is *anyone* lobbying for us *now*, the way things are going?

 

> Overall what will it do to our professional image.

 

What is our image now, " bipolar cat ladies? " When that was posted a few

days ago it wasn't the first time I had heard it.

 

> I agree we need some strong organizations to look at what is going on

> with our profession and I am more than willing to pay due to such a

> group.

 

AOMNC is asking for donations. AOMNC sued the insurance companies for

not paying us. <http://www.aomnc.com/>

 

I am waiting for Chris to report back on how much his wife's dues were.

He did say they solved the lobbying problem, immediately.

 

Regards,

 

Pete