Subject: Digest Number 1257 Needling through stockings

[Guest guest]

Interesting. Was it *approved* by the socialist government, or were

practitioners just doing it anyway? My Chinese friends say stuff

goes on that the government tries to modernize, but I imagine that

folkways are sometimes just too hard to change...

 

I still wouldn't do it myself. My professors say no, CNT says no,

the the State Board of Medical Practices say no. I'm going to have

to defer to these authorities, personally. Don't want those medical

negligence premiums of mine to go up! :-0 People are flipping out

about the rates, but TCM premiums in this part of the world are

still nothing compared with the premiums of other health care

professions, and other licensed professions generally. How about in

California?

Thanks again,

 

Rachel

 

Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus

DOM " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

>

> Rachel

> By the way needling through clothing was done in the 80s when i

was in china. I do not know if it changed.

>

>

>

>

> Oakland, CA 94609

>

>

> -

> goldenlotuspublishing

> Chinese Medicine

> Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:05 PM

> Re: Digest Number 1257 Needling through

stockings

>

>

> We've already discussed how things are perhaps more casual in

the

> warm states. Ok, ok, go naked if you need to :-) It's not the

most

> important issue affecting the profession. No one said it was.

>

> I'm well aware that needling was done through stockings in

ancient

> times. However, wouldn't you also agree that there was no Board

of

> Medical Practices in those days, to determine that the cause of

a

> super infection was the fact that the practitioner needled

through

> stockings? And even if the patient died or lost a leg, the

doctor

> would not be disciplined, retrained or anything else that

further

> diminishes the profession in the U.S.? Again, we're talking the

US,

> not China, today, not thousands of years ago, and we're

practicing

> under a Board of Medical Practices run by M.D.s, who read the

CNT

> book and say " Zowey! He wasn't supposed to needle through

garments "

> (but they already knew that), not " yes, but in China there is a

> tradition of needling through garments in the cold weather, so

it's

> ok in this case " . The incident which I described occured in

> Minnesota, where it is far colder than in most parts of China.

If

> the M.D.s reviewing the case thought that keeping the patient

warm

> was more important than basic CNT, wouldn't they have said

that?

> Why then did the discipline the practitioner and force him to

> be " retrained " ? Because CNT trumps cold, especially in a

culture

> that has adequate central heating, like ours.

>

> Regional acreditation doesn't seem important to the people

> responding, Alon. Most don't even understand what it means to

them,

> to the schools, or to the future of the profession. They think

> it's " boring " to discuss it. Just not " sexy " like herbs, point

> injections, etc. I agree. But it's still necessary.

>

> Best Regards,

>

> Rachel

>

> Thanks for your comments, Alon, they are interesting.

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Alon

Marcus

> DOM " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> >

> > Just asked my wife, the chief of OBGYN at northern CA large

HMO

> about dress code. She says less than 50% of male Dr wear a tie

to

> clinic but most still wear a coat, mostly for the name tag. I

guess

> we in the west are not as formal. I have worked and taught in WM

> circles for over 10 years and have seen some very casual

> practitioners and it never impaired their practices or academic

> standing. I do have to support Rachel however regarding regional

> accreditation. That is the only hope for the future of this

> profession if we are to achieve any real standing.

> > As an aside, needling through clothing was done all the time

in

> China during winter cold months.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Oakland, CA 94609

> >

> >

> > -

> > goldenlotuspublishing

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Saturday, January 21, 2006 8:56 PM

> > Re: Digest Number 1257 Lab Coats

> >

> >

> > I agree that home laundering is perhaps not as good as

> professional

> > laundering (if I launder something in hot water and bleach,

how

> is

> > that *inferior* to professional cleaning? Just curious).

But it

> is

> > still better than wandering around all day with pathogenic

> schmutz

> > on your street clothes.

> >

> > I've worked with western medical facilities in one way or

> another

> > since 1976. My husband teaches in a medical school and I

visit

> there

> > all of the time. I go to a HMO clinic for yearly ladies

exams

> and

> > other necessary evils. I go to the orthodontist for monthly

> > torture, er, dental alignment. But NONE of them wear

> *disposable*

> > lab coats! Where are you practicing that " everyone " wears

> > disposable lab coats? I'd like to investigate this further.

I

> bet

> > they look extremely cheezy. Like the guys at the meat

packing

> > plant :-) That's sure the mental image I'd like to leave

with my

> > patients :-) .

> >

> > And I bet you look really professional in whatever you wear,

> too!

> > (You do wear clothing, right? Disposable?? :-) )

> >

> > Best Regards,

> >

> > Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D.

> > " The Coco Chanel of TCM "

> >

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , Five

> Elements

> > <gabriellemathieu> wrote:

> > >

> > > Rachel,

> > >

> > > ok, good points. But home laundering is not sufficient to

> > > disinfect lab coats, if we're talking OSHA. Therefore,

> > > laundered and pressed is really not the issue. Most Western

> > > med clinics have gone to disposable lab coats, made out of

> > > some wierd synthetic (non-absorbable) material. Only the

> > > docs sometimes show in freshly pressed lab coats,if they

> > > wear coats.

> > > I'm sure you look very professional in your coat though.

> > > Gabrielle

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam protection

> around

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

> >

> >

>

and

> adjust accordingly.

> >

> > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication

outside

> the group requires prior permission from the author.

> >

> > Please consider the environment and only print this message

if

> absolutely necessary.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

It was only done in areas were the temp was just too cold to undress. Obviously

it is not the most wise thing to do in US.

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

goldenlotuspublishing

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, January 22, 2006 2:32 PM

Re: Digest Number 1257 Needling through stockings

 

 

Interesting. Was it *approved* by the socialist government, or were

practitioners just doing it anyway? My Chinese friends say stuff

goes on that the government tries to modernize, but I imagine that

folkways are sometimes just too hard to change...

 

I still wouldn't do it myself. My professors say no, CNT says no,

the the State Board of Medical Practices say no. I'm going to have

to defer to these authorities, personally. Don't want those medical

negligence premiums of mine to go up! :-0 People are flipping out

about the rates, but TCM premiums in this part of the world are

still nothing compared with the premiums of other health care

professions, and other licensed professions generally. How about in

California?

Thanks again,

 

Rachel

 

Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus

DOM " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

>

> Rachel

> By the way needling through clothing was done in the 80s when i

was in china. I do not know if it changed.

>

>

>

>

> Oakland, CA 94609

>

>

> -

> goldenlotuspublishing

> Chinese Medicine

> Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:05 PM

> Re: Digest Number 1257 Needling through

stockings

>

>

> We've already discussed how things are perhaps more casual in

the

> warm states. Ok, ok, go naked if you need to :-) It's not the

most

> important issue affecting the profession. No one said it was.

>

> I'm well aware that needling was done through stockings in

ancient

> times. However, wouldn't you also agree that there was no Board

of

> Medical Practices in those days, to determine that the cause of

a

> super infection was the fact that the practitioner needled

through

> stockings? And even if the patient died or lost a leg, the

doctor

> would not be disciplined, retrained or anything else that

further

> diminishes the profession in the U.S.? Again, we're talking the

US,

> not China, today, not thousands of years ago, and we're

practicing

> under a Board of Medical Practices run by M.D.s, who read the

CNT

> book and say " Zowey! He wasn't supposed to needle through

garments "

> (but they already knew that), not " yes, but in China there is a

> tradition of needling through garments in the cold weather, so

it's

> ok in this case " . The incident which I described occured in

> Minnesota, where it is far colder than in most parts of China.

If

> the M.D.s reviewing the case thought that keeping the patient

warm

> was more important than basic CNT, wouldn't they have said

that?

> Why then did the discipline the practitioner and force him to

> be " retrained " ? Because CNT trumps cold, especially in a

culture

> that has adequate central heating, like ours.

>

> Regional acreditation doesn't seem important to the people

> responding, Alon. Most don't even understand what it means to

them,

> to the schools, or to the future of the profession. They think

> it's " boring " to discuss it. Just not " sexy " like herbs, point

> injections, etc. I agree. But it's still necessary.

>

> Best Regards,

>

> Rachel

>

> Thanks for your comments, Alon, they are interesting.

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Alon

Marcus

> DOM " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> >

> > Just asked my wife, the chief of OBGYN at northern CA large

HMO

> about dress code. She says less than 50% of male Dr wear a tie

to

> clinic but most still wear a coat, mostly for the name tag. I

guess

> we in the west are not as formal. I have worked and taught in WM

> circles for over 10 years and have seen some very casual

> practitioners and it never impaired their practices or academic

> standing. I do have to support Rachel however regarding regional

> accreditation. That is the only hope for the future of this

> profession if we are to achieve any real standing.

> > As an aside, needling through clothing was done all the time

in

> China during winter cold months.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Oakland, CA 94609

> >

> >

> > -

> > goldenlotuspublishing

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Saturday, January 21, 2006 8:56 PM

> > Re: Digest Number 1257 Lab Coats

> >

> >

> > I agree that home laundering is perhaps not as good as

> professional

> > laundering (if I launder something in hot water and bleach,

how

> is

> > that *inferior* to professional cleaning? Just curious).

But it

> is

> > still better than wandering around all day with pathogenic

> schmutz

> > on your street clothes.

> >

> > I've worked with western medical facilities in one way or

> another

> > since 1976. My husband teaches in a medical school and I

visit

> there

> > all of the time. I go to a HMO clinic for yearly ladies

exams

> and

> > other necessary evils. I go to the orthodontist for monthly

> > torture, er, dental alignment. But NONE of them wear

> *disposable*

> > lab coats! Where are you practicing that " everyone " wears

> > disposable lab coats? I'd like to investigate this further.

I

> bet

> > they look extremely cheezy. Like the guys at the meat

packing

> > plant :-) That's sure the mental image I'd like to leave

with my

> > patients :-) .

> >

> > And I bet you look really professional in whatever you wear,

> too!

> > (You do wear clothing, right? Disposable?? :-) )

> >

> > Best Regards,

> >

> > Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D.

> > " The Coco Chanel of TCM "

> >

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , Five

> Elements

> > <gabriellemathieu> wrote:

> > >

> > > Rachel,

> > >

> > > ok, good points. But home laundering is not sufficient to

> > > disinfect lab coats, if we're talking OSHA. Therefore,

> > > laundered and pressed is really not the issue. Most Western

> > > med clinics have gone to disposable lab coats, made out of

> > > some wierd synthetic (non-absorbable) material. Only the

> > > docs sometimes show in freshly pressed lab coats,if they

> > > wear coats.

> > > I'm sure you look very professional in your coat though.

> > > Gabrielle

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam protection

> around

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

> >

> >

>

and

> adjust accordingly.

> >

> > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication

outside

> the group requires prior permission from the author.

> >

> > Please consider the environment and only print this message

if

> absolutely necessary.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> Rachel

> By the way needling through clothing was done in the 80s when i was in china.

 

Hi Dr. Alon!

 

Oh, this brings back a memory. We has an ever-so-sweet little lady

interning with us. This was the sort of lady who, if anyone were to say

anything off color in her presence, she in all innocence wouldn't have

known what it meant.

 

One day she had to do some deep needling into one of the points on the

tush of a male patient and she stuck the needles right through his under

drawers, too modest to pull them down and clean the point with

alcohol/cotton like everybody else always does. This was *not* in China,

and *not* in the 80s!

 

I was " assisting " her. I whispered to her in pinyin chinglish (that I

hoped the patient would not understand if he overheard:

 

" Uh, crean needer . . . "

 

She whispered back that it was ok, Dr. Shao always does it like that

(Dr. Shao later denied it), you wouldn't expect me to pull his

*underpants* down would you? I guess *not*!

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

By the way swiping with alcohol does nothing, just another ritual

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

petetheisen

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, January 22, 2006 10:18 PM

Re: Re: Digest Number 1257 Needling through stockings

 

 

wrote:

> Rachel

> By the way needling through clothing was done in the 80s when i was in

china.

 

Hi Dr. Alon!

 

Oh, this brings back a memory. We has an ever-so-sweet little lady

interning with us. This was the sort of lady who, if anyone were to say

anything off color in her presence, she in all innocence wouldn't have

known what it meant.

 

One day she had to do some deep needling into one of the points on the

tush of a male patient and she stuck the needles right through his under

drawers, too modest to pull them down and clean the point with

alcohol/cotton like everybody else always does. This was *not* in China,

and *not* in the 80s!

 

I was " assisting " her. I whispered to her in pinyin chinglish (that I

hoped the patient would not understand if he overheard:

 

" Uh, crean needer . . . "

 

She whispered back that it was ok, Dr. Shao always does it like that

(Dr. Shao later denied it), you wouldn't expect me to pull his

*underpants* down would you? I guess *not*!

 

Regards,

 

Pete

 

 

 

 

Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon:

 

Could you please explain further... " ....swiping with alcohol does nothing,

just another ritual " ....

 

Thanks, TH

<alonmarcus wrote:

By the way swiping with alcohol does nothing, just another ritual

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

petetheisen

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, January 22, 2006 10:18 PM

Re: Re: Digest Number 1257 Needling through stockings

 

 

wrote:

> Rachel

> By the way needling through clothing was done in the 80s when i was in

china.

 

Hi Dr. Alon!

 

Oh, this brings back a memory. We has an ever-so-sweet little lady

interning with us. This was the sort of lady who, if anyone were to say

anything off color in her presence, she in all innocence wouldn't have

known what it meant.

 

One day she had to do some deep needling into one of the points on the

tush of a male patient and she stuck the needles right through his under

drawers, too modest to pull them down and clean the point with

alcohol/cotton like everybody else always does. This was *not* in China,

and *not* in the 80s!

 

I was " assisting " her. I whispered to her in pinyin chinglish (that I

hoped the patient would not understand if he overheard:

 

" Uh, crean needer . . . "

 

She whispered back that it was ok, Dr. Shao always does it like that

(Dr. Shao later denied it), you wouldn't expect me to pull his

*underpants* down would you? I guess *not*!

 

Regards,

 

Pete

 

 

 

 

Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In order for alcohol to disinfect it must be in place for over two minutes. So

the kind of swiping we do does nothing but move the germs around

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Twyla Hoodah

Chinese Medicine

Monday, January 23, 2006 9:52 AM

Re: Re: Digest Number 1257 Needling through stockings

 

 

Alon:

 

Could you please explain further... " ....swiping with alcohol does nothing,

just another ritual " ....

 

Thanks, TH

<alonmarcus wrote:

By the way swiping with alcohol does nothing, just another ritual

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

-

petetheisen

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, January 22, 2006 10:18 PM

Re: Re: Digest Number 1257 Needling through

stockings

 

 

wrote:

> Rachel

> By the way needling through clothing was done in the 80s when i was in

china.

 

Hi Dr. Alon!

 

Oh, this brings back a memory. We has an ever-so-sweet little lady

interning with us. This was the sort of lady who, if anyone were to say

anything off color in her presence, she in all innocence wouldn't have

known what it meant.

 

One day she had to do some deep needling into one of the points on the

tush of a male patient and she stuck the needles right through his under

drawers, too modest to pull them down and clean the point with

alcohol/cotton like everybody else always does. This was *not* in China,

and *not* in the 80s!

 

I was " assisting " her. I whispered to her in pinyin chinglish (that I

hoped the patient would not understand if he overheard:

 

" Uh, crean needer . . . "

 

She whispered back that it was ok, Dr. Shao always does it like that

(Dr. Shao later denied it), you wouldn't expect me to pull his

*underpants* down would you? I guess *not*!

 

Regards,

 

Pete

 

 

 

 

Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.