Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Hi Rachel I'm impressed with the passion of your argument and agree with much of what you say. However your experience of TCM is quite narrow at this stage of your education and so some of the generalisations you use to cover the whole community of TCM are naive. First of all this list has an international membership and yet you don't really include the whole community in your commentary - you are not alone in this, as I find most of the USA listers assume that we are all USA residents, to the point where they don't even mention the country they are talking about, we have to infer that from some other information. If non USA listers make statements about administration, politics etc, they tend to make clear the country their comments relate to. Obviously if we were all just talking about TCM as a medicine, then those differences wouldn't be so important. It is quite arrogant for you to assume that the whole world wants a diatribe on what is wrong with the USA TCM education system. Personally I get bored with the discussions on the various differences between USA State regulation, Medicare, billing etc which are specific to the USA alone. Secondly, you are so emphatic about how things should be. Lets take the white coat as an example. You say that a short sleeved white coat is not as good as a long sleeved in terms of the image it creates. That may well be true, but long sleeves are not at all practical or hygienic when one is actually practising TCM, Gua Sha is a case in point - sleeves would get in the way and get dirty with oil. White coats with long sleeves are great if you are a practitioner who sits behind a desk and doesn't actually touch patients - here in the UK, lots of doctors appear to avoid touching patients. Most general practitioners (MDs) dress very casually, often wear jeans and open necked shirts, but white coats are worn by junior doctors in hospital. I have never seen a surgeon wear a white coat. The point I'm trying to make is that the issue of white coats, what length of sleeve, whether they are worn or not varies tremendously by country and situation. To me you got a bit distracted with your argument, but what you really mean I think is that there are a number of TCM practitioners who let the side down and need to clean up their act. Thirdly, for someone with the education and I assume experience you have in administration and law, I am amazed that you are so unaware of how politics (with a small " p " ) operates, even on a list like this. I have greatly enjoyed your challenges to the moderators and other members of the list, but you shouldn't be surprised if certain groups gang together, talk behind your back, whisper in your ear but refuse to stand up publicly! I have had many tantrums in my life but never found they got me what I wanted, may I suggest you employ your intelligence more than your cleverness to get your point over. I have great sympathy with your frustrations about the college you attend. What experience of other TCM colleges do you have that leads you to your all encompassing conclusions - I'm not saying you are wrong, but how do you know you are right? I was very frustrated with the first college I attended to get my acupuncture degree, with many of the same problems you have. After graduating, I did an excellent 2 year post graduate course at another college and couldn't fault any aspect of the education I received. Finally, if Robert Haydn wants to leave the list, that is up to him. You don't need to patronise us by pointing out that he may have been manipulative in choosing that particular time to do it. We are all old enough to form our own opinions. Slagging him off does not make your argument more elegant. Regards Susie Parkinson PS thanks for explaining how one lists the degrees after one's name. I have been doing it wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Sorry, Susan I usually try to mention U.S. in my discussions. I'm sorry for every time I failed to do so. I really need to remember to put that in every paragraph. That will make for smooth reading, to be sure! I'm also sorry that you missed all of the posts by other people who also express concern re: their own schools, and re survival of TCM in the United States. But I guess I shouldn't have included them in any *conclusions*. I should have pretended that it was just an isolated incident, perhaps, ignoring the remarks of anyone other than myself... Gua Sha isn't practiced all that much around here (in the U.S.), and when it is, I've never seen it get as messy as you describe. But I believe you. Sorry that you non-U.S. types are so bored with our petty little problems , here in the U.S. I'll try not to bore you with our silly concerns anymore :-) I'm sorry, I thought that issues like quality of education and potentially losing our right to practice as independent care providers (here in the U.S.)would have more universal appeal. I stand corrected. You are right, and I am wrong. These silly little concerns should never have come across your screen. Please explain why these are not an issue outside of the United States, though. I'd sincerely like to know why. And I'm sure you will be able to inform me in great detail, even if it *is* boring to the U.S. readers on this listserv. Thanks Susan, love Rachel (here in the U.S.) Chinese Medicine , " Susie Parkinson " <susie@p...> wrote: > > Hi Rachel > > I'm impressed with the passion of your argument and agree with much of what > you say. However your experience of TCM is quite narrow at this stage of > your education and so some of the generalisations you use to cover the whole > community of TCM are naive. First of all this list has an international > membership and yet you don't really include the whole community in your > commentary - you are not alone in this, as I find most of the USA listers > assume that we are all USA residents, to the point where they don't even > mention the country they are talking about, we have to infer that from some > other information. If non USA listers make statements about administration, > politics etc, they tend to make clear the country their comments relate to. > Obviously if we were all just talking about TCM as a medicine, then those > differences wouldn't be so important. It is quite arrogant for you to > assume that the whole world wants a diatribe on what is wrong with the USA > TCM education system. Personally I get bored with the discussions on the > various differences between USA State regulation, Medicare, billing etc > which are specific to the USA alone. > > Secondly, you are so emphatic about how things should be. Lets take the > white coat as an example. You say that a short sleeved white coat is not as > good as a long sleeved in terms of the image it creates. That may well be > true, but long sleeves are not at all practical or hygienic when one is > actually practising TCM, Gua Sha is a case in point - sleeves would get in > the way and get dirty with oil. White coats with long sleeves are great if > you are a practitioner who sits behind a desk and doesn't actually touch > patients - here in the UK, lots of doctors appear to avoid touching > patients. Most general practitioners (MDs) dress very casually, often wear > jeans and open necked shirts, but white coats are worn by junior doctors in > hospital. I have never seen a surgeon wear a white coat. The point I'm > trying to make is that the issue of white coats, what length of sleeve, > whether they are worn or not varies tremendously by country and situation. > To me you got a bit distracted with your argument, but what you really mean > I think is that there are a number of TCM practitioners who let the side > down and need to clean up their act. > > Thirdly, for someone with the education and I assume experience you have in > administration and law, I am amazed that you are so unaware of how politics > (with a small " p " ) operates, even on a list like this. I have greatly > enjoyed your challenges to the moderators and other members of the list, but > you shouldn't be surprised if certain groups gang together, talk behind your > back, whisper in your ear but refuse to stand up publicly! I have had many > tantrums in my life but never found they got me what I wanted, may I suggest > you employ your intelligence more than your cleverness to get your point > over. > > I have great sympathy with your frustrations about the college you attend. > What experience of other TCM colleges do you have that leads you to your all > encompassing conclusions - I'm not saying you are wrong, but how do you know > you are right? I was very frustrated with the first college I attended to > get my acupuncture degree, with many of the same problems you have. After > graduating, I did an excellent 2 year post graduate course at another > college and couldn't fault any aspect of the education I received. > > Finally, if Robert Haydn wants to leave the list, that is up to him. You > don't need to patronise us by pointing out that he may have been > manipulative in choosing that particular time to do it. We are all old > enough to form our own opinions. Slagging him off does not make your > argument more elegant. > > Regards > > Susie Parkinson > > PS thanks for explaining how one lists the degrees after one's name. I have > been doing it wrong! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Rachel In spite of Susie's measured and well meaning response to your endless diatribes you continue to insult the genuine, well meaning, good natured folks on this list with your puerile irony and razor sharp tongue. It takes an awful lot for me to be moved to get drawn into this kind of ridiculous slanging match which serves absolutely no purpose that I can see. I don't think anyone is suggesting your points are not valid points to raise - but oh dear me, what a huge bee you have under your bonnet. If your fury truly knows no bounds, I for one would be grateful if you took it elsewhere. Raise your points, yes, that's what the forum is for, but please show some respect for the many many seriously well qualified and experienced practitioners who are good enough to share their experience with those of us (and I include myself here) who are less experienced and newer to the profession. Regards, jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of goldenlotuspublishing 22 January 2006 14:45 Chinese Medicine Re: Response to Rachel Sorry, Susan I usually try to mention U.S. in my discussions. I'm sorry for every time I failed to do so. I really need to remember to put that in every paragraph. That will make for smooth reading, to be sure! I'm also sorry that you missed all of the posts by other people who also express concern re: their own schools, and re survival of TCM in the United States. But I guess I shouldn't have included them in any *conclusions*. I should have pretended that it was just an isolated incident, perhaps, ignoring the remarks of anyone other than myself... Gua Sha isn't practiced all that much around here (in the U.S.), and when it is, I've never seen it get as messy as you describe. But I believe you. Sorry that you non-U.S. types are so bored with our petty little problems , here in the U.S. I'll try not to bore you with our silly concerns anymore :-) I'm sorry, I thought that issues like quality of education and potentially losing our right to practice as independent care providers (here in the U.S.)would have more universal appeal. I stand corrected. You are right, and I am wrong. These silly little concerns should never have come across your screen. Please explain why these are not an issue outside of the United States, though. I'd sincerely like to know why. And I'm sure you will be able to inform me in great detail, even if it *is* boring to the U.S. readers on this listserv. Thanks Susan, love Rachel (here in the U.S.) Chinese Medicine , " Susie Parkinson " <susie@p...> wrote: > > Hi Rachel > > I'm impressed with the passion of your argument and agree with much of what > you say. However your experience of TCM is quite narrow at this stage of > your education and so some of the generalisations you use to cover the whole > community of TCM are naive. First of all this list has an international > membership and yet you don't really include the whole community in your > commentary - you are not alone in this, as I find most of the USA listers > assume that we are all USA residents, to the point where they don't even > mention the country they are talking about, we have to infer that from some > other information. If non USA listers make statements about administration, > politics etc, they tend to make clear the country their comments relate to. > Obviously if we were all just talking about TCM as a medicine, then those > differences wouldn't be so important. It is quite arrogant for you to > assume that the whole world wants a diatribe on what is wrong with the USA > TCM education system. Personally I get bored with the discussions on the > various differences between USA State regulation, Medicare, billing etc > which are specific to the USA alone. > > Secondly, you are so emphatic about how things should be. Lets take the > white coat as an example. You say that a short sleeved white coat is not as > good as a long sleeved in terms of the image it creates. That may well be > true, but long sleeves are not at all practical or hygienic when one is > actually practising TCM, Gua Sha is a case in point - sleeves would get in > the way and get dirty with oil. White coats with long sleeves are great if > you are a practitioner who sits behind a desk and doesn't actually touch > patients - here in the UK, lots of doctors appear to avoid touching > patients. Most general practitioners (MDs) dress very casually, often wear > jeans and open necked shirts, but white coats are worn by junior doctors in > hospital. I have never seen a surgeon wear a white coat. The point I'm > trying to make is that the issue of white coats, what length of sleeve, > whether they are worn or not varies tremendously by country and situation. > To me you got a bit distracted with your argument, but what you really mean > I think is that there are a number of TCM practitioners who let the side > down and need to clean up their act. > > Thirdly, for someone with the education and I assume experience you have in > administration and law, I am amazed that you are so unaware of how politics > (with a small " p " ) operates, even on a list like this. I have greatly > enjoyed your challenges to the moderators and other members of the list, but > you shouldn't be surprised if certain groups gang together, talk behind your > back, whisper in your ear but refuse to stand up publicly! I have had many > tantrums in my life but never found they got me what I wanted, may I suggest > you employ your intelligence more than your cleverness to get your point > over. > > I have great sympathy with your frustrations about the college you attend. > What experience of other TCM colleges do you have that leads you to your all > encompassing conclusions - I'm not saying you are wrong, but how do you know > you are right? I was very frustrated with the first college I attended to > get my acupuncture degree, with many of the same problems you have. After > graduating, I did an excellent 2 year post graduate course at another > college and couldn't fault any aspect of the education I received. > > Finally, if Robert Haydn wants to leave the list, that is up to him. You > don't need to patronise us by pointing out that he may have been > manipulative in choosing that particular time to do it. We are all old > enough to form our own opinions. Slagging him off does not make your > argument more elegant. > > Regards > > Susie Parkinson > > PS thanks for explaining how one lists the degrees after one's name. I have > been doing it wrong! > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 I'm not bored with the problems, but the petty arguments that stem from them. On 1/22/06, goldenlotuspublishing <goldenlotuspublishing wrote: > > Sorry, Susan I usually try to mention U.S. in my discussions. I'm > sorry for every time I failed to do so. I really need to remember > to put that in every paragraph. That will make for smooth reading, > to be sure! > > I'm also sorry that you missed all of the posts by other people who > also express concern re: their own schools, and re survival of TCM > in the United States. But I guess I shouldn't have included them in > any *conclusions*. I should have pretended that it was just an > isolated incident, perhaps, ignoring the remarks of anyone other > than myself... > > Gua Sha isn't practiced all that much around here (in the U.S.), > and when it is, I've never seen it get as messy as you describe. But > I believe you. > > Sorry that you non-U.S. types are so bored with our petty little > problems , here in the U.S. I'll try not to bore you with our silly > concerns anymore :-) > > I'm sorry, I thought that issues like quality of education and > potentially losing our right to practice as independent care > providers (here in the U.S.)would have more universal appeal. I > stand corrected. You are right, and I am wrong. These silly little > concerns should never have come across your screen. Please explain > why these are not an issue outside of the United States, though. > I'd sincerely like to know why. And I'm sure you will be able to > inform me in great detail, even if it *is* boring to the U.S. > readers on this listserv. > > Thanks Susan, > > love > > Rachel > (here in the U.S.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Point well taken, Philip. Thank you. Rachel Chinese Medicine , " Dr. Philip Tan- Gatue " <philiptangatue@g...> wrote: > > I'm not bored with the problems, but the petty arguments that stem from > them. > > On 1/22/06, goldenlotuspublishing <goldenlotuspublishing> wrote: > > > > Sorry, Susan I usually try to mention U.S. in my discussions. I'm > > sorry for every time I failed to do so. I really need to remember > > to put that in every paragraph. That will make for smooth reading, > > to be sure! > > > > I'm also sorry that you missed all of the posts by other people who > > also express concern re: their own schools, and re survival of TCM > > in the United States. But I guess I shouldn't have included them in > > any *conclusions*. I should have pretended that it was just an > > isolated incident, perhaps, ignoring the remarks of anyone other > > than myself... > > > > Gua Sha isn't practiced all that much around here (in the U.S.), > > and when it is, I've never seen it get as messy as you describe. But > > I believe you. > > > > Sorry that you non-U.S. types are so bored with our petty little > > problems , here in the U.S. I'll try not to bore you with our silly > > concerns anymore :-) > > > > I'm sorry, I thought that issues like quality of education and > > potentially losing our right to practice as independent care > > providers (here in the U.S.)would have more universal appeal. I > > stand corrected. You are right, and I am wrong. These silly little > > concerns should never have come across your screen. Please explain > > why these are not an issue outside of the United States, though. > > I'd sincerely like to know why. And I'm sure you will be able to > > inform me in great detail, even if it *is* boring to the U.S. > > readers on this listserv. > > > > Thanks Susan, > > > > love > > > > Rachel > > (here in the U.S.) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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