a final few words

January 22, 2006

Maybe i don't need to write this, but i feel compelled to respond to the

assumptions and

inferences written about me, my training, my teaching and my practice.

I graduated acupuncture school in 1995 at the top of my class (i did not find

the training

particularly rigorous). My first job out of school was a 3-year stint at a busy

rheumatologist's office (the MD never wore a tie, let alone a lab coat, by the

way). During

that time i traveled across the country virtually every month and made two trips

to Japan

to study Japanese meridian therapy. Eventually i was asked by the association

with which i

studied to teach in their American programs.

I was offered a position as teacher with a full class load at the school where i

earned my

acupuncture certificate; i taught virtually the entire acupuncture program.

When my

students went to China to study in Guangzhou hospital, the faculty there were

impressed

with my students' grasp of TCM.

I finished the masters' program at the school during the time i was teaching a

full class

load and maintaining a full-time practice and weekend teaching of Japanese

acupuncture.

The classes i took during that time were mostly on Chinese herbal medicine and

biomedicine.

I have had a number of physicians (MD, DO, DC) seek me out to either recruit me

for their

integrative medicine program, or to study Japanese meridian therapy with me.

One of

them, a nationally-known DO, did me the honor of calling me one of the best

teachers

he'd ever had.

I'm on the editorial staff of an internationally-published OM journal, and have

had positive

responses to my translated writings from Japanese practitioners. I'm also

privately

undertaking functional translation of selected material from some classic

Japanese

acupuncture and Kampo texts.

Over the last few years, due to family commitments, i have moved many times,

three times

cross-country. I suspended practice several years ago to take care of my son

(my wife's

job has full benefits and, yes, a higher income than i have been able to make).

I have no

" competitors " , in fact i have been regularly turning away potential patients

because i do

not feel i currently have enough time to devote to building and maintaining a

good

practice in which i can be fully present and responsive to the needs of my

patients.

I am currently teaching Chinese herbal medicine and am OM program director at an

ACAOM-approved program. However, due to increased family responsibilities, i

will be

cutting back on my hours at the school.

For ten years, i have maintained an informational website on Japanese meridian

therapy (i

will refrain from giving the URL). The site is non-commercial, except for a

page with my

upcoming lectures and classes. I teach Japanese meridian therapy infrequently

and

somewhat reluctantly, for the role of teacher confers upon me an authority that

i do not

feel i merit. However, i also have trouble saying no, and due to increased

demand i will be

teaching some classes in the unspecified future.

The website contains my writings and some transcripts of lectures which are free

of

charge; i fully intend to add more content to the site as time permits. I pay

for the website

and do not charge for the information, i feel that it is my humble contribution

to the

profession.

For many reasons, i have decided that this will be my last post on this e-group.

I

apologize if i misrepresented or misconstrued the words or actions of anyone on

the

group during the time i have been here (including you, Rachel, i humbly bow to

you...

today you are my teacher). I will keep my membership for a while in order to

have access

to the archives for whatever purposes may arise. I will respond to inquiries

off-list.

Thanks for your time,

Most sincerely,

Robert Hayden, L.Ac.

January 22, 2006

Wow Robert, very impressive. When you edit, do you cut and paste

words out of context to mislead potential readers? Or do you just do

that here?

Robert, your little diatribe is the most brilliant piece of passive-

agressive manipulation that I have read or heard in YEARS....I

almost feel sorry for you myself, sniff sniff. Where's my Kleenex?

Never mind, I'll just wipe my nose on the sleeve of my official TCM

dirty flannel shirt :-)

You could have a brilliant career as a manipulative propagandist.

Too bad TCM already has plenty of those. They are called TCM school

administrators. NO, sir, I bow to YOU. You've taught ME the correct

way to communicate in the world of TCM. Cut and paste, snip,

snip....and above all, work the crowd for sympathy....

You are a rare individual indeed.

Rachel

Chinese Medicine , " kampo36 "

<kampo36> wrote:

>

> Maybe i don't need to write this, but i feel compelled to respond

to the assumptions and

> inferences written about me, my training, my teaching and my

practice.

>

> I graduated acupuncture school in 1995 at the top of my class (i

did not find the training

> particularly rigorous). My first job out of school was a 3-year

stint at a busy

> rheumatologist's office (the MD never wore a tie, let alone a lab

coat, by the way). During

> that time i traveled across the country virtually every month and

made two trips to Japan

> to study Japanese meridian therapy. Eventually i was asked by the

association with which i

> studied to teach in their American programs.

>

> I was offered a position as teacher with a full class load at the

school where i earned my

> acupuncture certificate; i taught virtually the entire acupuncture

program. When my

> students went to China to study in Guangzhou hospital, the faculty

there were impressed

> with my students' grasp of TCM.

>

> I finished the masters' program at the school during the time i

was teaching a full class

> load and maintaining a full-time practice and weekend teaching of

Japanese acupuncture.

> The classes i took during that time were mostly on Chinese herbal

medicine and

> biomedicine.

>

> I have had a number of physicians (MD, DO, DC) seek me out to

either recruit me for their

> integrative medicine program, or to study Japanese meridian

therapy with me. One of

> them, a nationally-known DO, did me the honor of calling me one of

the best teachers

> he'd ever had.

>

> I'm on the editorial staff of an internationally-published OM

journal, and have had positive

> responses to my translated writings from Japanese practitioners.

I'm also privately

> undertaking functional translation of selected material from some

classic Japanese

> acupuncture and Kampo texts.

>

> Over the last few years, due to family commitments, i have moved

many times, three times

> cross-country. I suspended practice several years ago to take

care of my son (my wife's

> job has full benefits and, yes, a higher income than i have been

able to make). I have no

> " competitors " , in fact i have been regularly turning away

potential patients because i do

> not feel i currently have enough time to devote to building and

maintaining a good

> practice in which i can be fully present and responsive to the

needs of my patients.

>

> I am currently teaching Chinese herbal medicine and am OM program

director at an

> ACAOM-approved program. However, due to increased family

responsibilities, i will be

> cutting back on my hours at the school.

>

> For ten years, i have maintained an informational website on

Japanese meridian therapy (i

> will refrain from giving the URL). The site is non-commercial,

except for a page with my

> upcoming lectures and classes. I teach Japanese meridian therapy

infrequently and

> somewhat reluctantly, for the role of teacher confers upon me an

authority that i do not

> feel i merit. However, i also have trouble saying no, and due to

increased demand i will be

> teaching some classes in the unspecified future.

>

> The website contains my writings and some transcripts of lectures

which are free of

> charge; i fully intend to add more content to the site as time

permits. I pay for the website

> and do not charge for the information, i feel that it is my humble

contribution to the

> profession.

>

> For many reasons, i have decided that this will be my last post on

this e-group. I

> apologize if i misrepresented or misconstrued the words or actions

of anyone on the

> group during the time i have been here (including you, Rachel, i

humbly bow to you...

> today you are my teacher). I will keep my membership for a while

in order to have access

> to the archives for whatever purposes may arise. I will respond

to inquiries off-list.

>

> Thanks for your time,

> Most sincerely,

> Robert Hayden, L.Ac.

>

January 22, 2006

kampo36 wrote:

>

For many reasons, i have decided that this will be my last post on this

e-group

>

there have been lengthy discussions on the reasons for the profession

not quite making its mark out there in the real world, ranging from did

we gouge out the gluteus in dissection to are we in white coat and tie

other reasons have been, inadequate training, limitations in curriculum,

questionable training in the business aspect of the profession

i am suggesting one more reason, and that is that in some cases there

may be an entire absence of the proverbial bedside manner

some practitioners have come across as vitriolic, entirely intolerant of

opinions which seem different from theirs

at other times there is an underlying vein of frank rage, and absolutely

no compunction at mauling the perceived weak by a barrage of invective

if this intolerant attitude which borders on bullying is prevalent in as

little as 2 % of the practitioners, word of mouth will carry in a

negative sense, and do the fledgling profession no good

for a practitioner of the stature of kampo36 to have to abdicate because

of a rachel h peterman, M.S., J.D., gets to be as tragic and unfortunate

as it will ever be

if we a practitioners make the milieu ungraciously unreceptive for a man

i consider one of the foremost living exponents of the Japanese Meridian

Therapy, it is a sorry day, and bodes no well for the profession

and i shudder to think that the same bullying, badgering and intolerance

might be the lot of the patient, who is the quintessence of weak and

vulnerable

if indeed we have lost kampo36, it is rank tragedy

dr holmes

www.acu-free.com

January 22, 2006

....But cutting and pasting the words of another in order to mislead

readers is o.k. with you " dr " ? Is that what you learned in medical

school, " dr " ?

Robert's " last " email was the most passive-agressive, manipulative

thing I've read in years, but his schtick worked on you. Perhaps on

others, but not on me. *He* was allowed to be sarcastic, but not

me? I gave him back a little bit of sarcasm, and he gets all weepy

on us? Robert can dish it out, but he can't take it?

I didn't cut and paste *his* words out of context, trying to

manipulate the other readers. He was trying to lead others to think

I was " calling him names " when I was simply giving examples of some

unpleasant things that health care professionals actually say about

us as TCM practitioners. But I didn't cut and paste *his* words out

of context. Not once. Because it's unethical and underhanded. Does

age or TCM experience afford him *that* privilege? Or are we only

allowed to be sarcastic on this listserv if we are willing to accept

some whimsical notion of TCM, and willing to ignore the realities

associated with practice in the United States? If I told you that

western medicine is the bogey man and TCM is a magical, mystical art

that will transform the world, would I *then* have the " street cred "

to be just as sarcastic on this listserv as the rest of you? The

truth is, many of you are just as intractable and unwilling to see

any other point of view as you accuse *me* of being. The difference

is, *my* opinions are based on hundreds, maybe thousands of hours of

research. The " magical world of TCM " faction only has their hopes

and dreams to support *their* view. But they never let anything like

facts and reality get in the way of *their* opinions....

Accept the fact, " dr " , that no one's attacking you or anyone else

personally, some of us just want to discuss certain unpleasant

realities affecting TCM today. Ignoring these realities might help

you sleep better at night, but it won't do much to protect TCM as an

independent practice in the United States.

Too many people are so threatened by any discussion that doesn't

comport with their own view of TCM as a high art form, sent down

from heaven to magically cure everything...an art which requires its

high priests to dance around in organically grown hemp, their

dreadlocks and tatoos flashing in the morning light....

It's an art and a science. I'll give you that much. But too many

people want to vilify the science while worshipping the " art " .

That's not a formula for survival in the United States. Unless you

*want* to work under the supervision of an M.D. Those of us who

*aren't* retired or running continuing education courses for a

living simply don't have the luxury of ignoring the *real* problems

confronting TCM practice in the U.S. today. I think that deep down,

you recognize that, " dr " .

Send my love to your unusual knicknacks and curios who wanted to

know about my degrees, " dr " ...that's SO sweet of them....

love,

Rachel

Chinese Medicine , holmes

<dkaikobad@c...> wrote:

>

> kampo36 wrote:

> >

> For many reasons, i have decided that this will be my last post on

this

> e-group

> >

>

> there have been lengthy discussions on the reasons for the

profession

> not quite making its mark out there in the real world, ranging

from did

> we gouge out the gluteus in dissection to are we in white coat and

tie

>

> other reasons have been, inadequate training, limitations in

curriculum,

> questionable training in the business aspect of the profession

>

> i am suggesting one more reason, and that is that in some cases

there

> may be an entire absence of the proverbial bedside manner

>

> some practitioners have come across as vitriolic, entirely

intolerant of

> opinions which seem different from theirs

>

> at other times there is an underlying vein of frank rage, and

absolutely

> no compunction at mauling the perceived weak by a barrage of

invective

>

> if this intolerant attitude which borders on bullying is prevalent

in as

> little as 2 % of the practitioners, word of mouth will carry in a

> negative sense, and do the fledgling profession no good

>

> for a practitioner of the stature of kampo36 to have to abdicate

because

> of a rachel h peterman, M.S., J.D., gets to be as tragic and

unfortunate

> as it will ever be

>

> if we a practitioners make the milieu ungraciously unreceptive for

a man

> i consider one of the foremost living exponents of the Japanese

Meridian

> Therapy, it is a sorry day, and bodes no well for the profession

>

> and i shudder to think that the same bullying, badgering and

intolerance

> might be the lot of the patient, who is the quintessence of weak

and

> vulnerable

>

> if indeed we have lost kampo36, it is rank tragedy

>

> dr holmes

> www.acu-free.com

>

January 22, 2006

Rachel,

I know that your upset over people twisting your words to make a trap for

you, but attacking people's dress code is not winning the argument. I've

tried to edit your constant flaming attacks against people, but cannot get

to all of them.

You are not allowed to attack cultural identities such as you did in the

passage below. It serves no purpose to attack people's characteristic

identity (flaming) in order to win your argument. As a doctor of law and a

TCM practitioner who really should know better.

Please stop it. Try a different angle of argument.

Warm regards,

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M.

Editor

Times

07786 198900

enquiries

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

Too many people are so threatened by any discussion that doesn't

comport with their own view of TCM as a high art form, sent down

from heaven to magically cure everything...an art which requires its

high priests to dance around in organically grown hemp, their

dreadlocks and tatoos flashing in the morning light....

January 22, 2006

Who are these people, Alon? I haven't met any.

On Jan 22, 2006, at 1:28 PM, wrote:

> Too many people are so threatened by any discussion that doesn't

> comport with their own view of TCM as a high art form, sent down

> from heaven to magically cure everything.

January 23, 2006

Zev

We see very little discussion on any of the negatives related to our medicine

and education. As you know i have been very vocal regarding this issue for many

years. Almost without fail whenever i bring such subjects up i hear " well WM is

that or this. " What i do not hear is any critical discussion of the evidence for

our medicine or our education. I guess it is natural for an underdog profession

to behaves is such defensive ways but change is way over due.

Early in my teaching (early 90s) i used to put out theoretical scenarios of an

acute MI asking students (LAcs) to start a questioning thread to come up with a

dx. While these were unusual MI presentations out of at least 100 LAc non picked

up an appropriate thread of questioning. It was clear none had any idea such a

presentation could be related to an MI. When i then questioned the safety of

their primary care practice and their professional standing i would hear all

kind of stuff except acknowledgment that they could not even answer the

question. At that time there was also a lot of discussion regarding granting Dr

degrees to practitioners (this was part of AAOM), which i thought to be a

mistake. But the kind of defensiveness and " deserving " attitude you could hear

was mind blowing. Many were even extremely defensive regarding their OM training

not willing to acknowledge its true state. You could see practitioners that new

close to nothing about CM herbal practice claiming to be as educated as anyone

and deserving of a Dr degree (although i must say that at that time the most

vocal were from FL for some reason).

There is simply too much defensiveness and not enough critical analysis in our

profession. The schools have also done very little to change this, from

significantly changing educational programs to requiring students to do clinical

followups and critically measure clinical outcomes, to critically review our

literature at school settings

Oakland, CA 94609

-

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, January 22, 2006 3:35 PM

Re: a final few words

Who are these people, Alon? I haven't met any.

On Jan 22, 2006, at 1:28 PM, wrote:

> Too many people are so threatened by any discussion that doesn't

> comport with their own view of TCM as a high art form, sent down

> from heaven to magically cure everything.

January 23, 2006

Well said. There's nothing I could really disagree with here. We've

got a lot of work to do, but as someone else pointed out, there is

little funding for development in our profession other than

professional dues and income from student tuitions at private, mostly

for-profit educational institutions.

I just wish you'd spell out your ideas in longer posts rather than

dysphemisms.

On Jan 22, 2006, at 4:20 PM, wrote:

> Zev

> We see very little discussion on any of the negatives related to

> our medicine and education. As you know i have been very vocal

> regarding this issue for many years. Almost without fail whenever i

> bring such subjects up i hear " well WM is that or this. " What i do

> not hear is any critical discussion of the evidence for our

> medicine or our education. I guess it is natural for an underdog

> profession to behaves is such defensive ways but change is way over

> due.

> Early in my teaching (early 90s) i used to put out theoretical

> scenarios of an acute MI asking students (LAcs) to start a

> questioning thread to come up with a dx. While these were unusual

> MI presentations out of at least 100 LAc non picked up an

> appropriate thread of questioning. It was clear none had any idea

> such a presentation could be related to an MI. When i then

> questioned the safety of their primary care practice and their

> professional standing i would hear all kind of stuff except

> acknowledgment that they could not even answer the question. At

> that time there was also a lot of discussion regarding granting Dr

> degrees to practitioners (this was part of AAOM), which i thought

> to be a mistake. But the kind of defensiveness and " deserving "

> attitude you could hear was mind blowing. Many were even extremely

> defensive regarding their OM training not willing to acknowledge

> its true state. You could see practitioners that new close to

> nothing about CM herbal practice claiming to be a

> There is simply too much defensiveness and not enough critical

> analysis in our profession. The schools have also done very little

> to change this, from significantly changing educational programs to

> requiring students to do clinical followups and critically measure

> clinical outcomes, to critically review our literature at school

> settings

>

> Oakland, CA 94609

>

> -

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Sunday, January 22, 2006 3:35 PM

> Re: a final few words

>

> Who are these people, Alon? I haven't met any.

>

> On Jan 22, 2006, at 1:28 PM, wrote:

>

>> Too many people are so threatened by any discussion that doesn't

>> comport with their own view of TCM as a high art form, sent down

>> from heaven to magically cure everything.

>

January 23, 2006

Zev

I am just a guy with a few words i will try

Oakland, CA 94609

-

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, January 22, 2006 4:39 PM