Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Rachel, I would like to hear more about things here in MN. Maybe we could connect offlist. I am a L Ac (PCOM) living in Mpls and currently attending NWCC. I choose to do so due to many of the same reasons or realizations that you and others have mentioned. I would like to hear more about your experiences and observations, they might help me in writing a book for the lay public about things to consider and where to find info for practice. There is much disparity and experience that tends to shock us yet we are often ignorant until it happens to us. Let me know if a project like this sounds good to you. Thanks Sincerely, Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >golden lotus publishing <goldenlotuspublishing >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Digest Number 1259 >Sat, 21 Jan 2006 17:11:25 -0800 (PST) > > " Rachel, when you started posting I was in sympathy with your gripes about >dumbing down classes. But as you continue to insult the rest of us, you're >coming very close to seeming like a raving, ignorant bigot. > >---roseanne " > > I may be a raving, ignorant bigot, :-) Rosanne, but I'm not afraid to >post my remarks online for the public record. I don't have to sneek >around, like you. You send your rant to me offline so you can maintain your >image as a " nice " little TCM practitioner in front of others. I may be >raving, and I may be a " bigot " ? (look up the definition of the term, >sweetie, before you use it), but I'm certainly not ignorant. I'm actually >extremely well informed regarding these issues. Probably far better >informed than you could ever hope to be. My ideas frighten you, so you'd >rather put your head in the sand, and call me ill-advised " names " offline, >because it somehow helps you cope... Now THAT's ignorant... > > How's that for appropriate, Mr. Moderator? Sending people personal >emails offline, calling them names (albeit in a rather childish, >inarticulate fashion)? Not even having the personal integrity to say what >she thinks in a public forum? Do you support THAT sort of activity?? I >personally find it inappropriate. If you have something to say, say it in >the public forum. If you are afraid to, then hold your tongue. > > The Moderator has accused me of speaking negatively about western >medicine (albeit, not within the public forum, but offline; I don't think >HE's too timid; maybe he just doesn't want you all to know that speech is >being censored on this listserv, not for obscenity, but for ideas that >differ from the status quo. I think that medical negligence is an issue >which DOES affect Oriental Medicine, however, the Moderator disagrees. He >thinks that a frank discussion of the issues involved represents " speaking >negatively " about western medicine). > > The Moderator is not correct regarding my beliefs involving western >medicine. For the record, I think western medicine is ok. It has it's >issues, but generally speaking I'm glad we have it. When my husband had a >stroke, it wasn't TCM practitioners who saved his life, it was a >neurosurgeon, internists, nurses and others, all western medical >practitioners. When people have cancerous lesions that need resection, >chemotherapy and radiation, I'm glad that western medicine is there for >them. Allopathic medicine has its strengths, and TCM has its own >strengths. However, our country's healthcare system *is* controlled by >western medicine. That's not a criticism, Mr. Moderator, that's simply a >fact. I don't know that it's a *bad* thing at all! Western medical >professionals, for the most part, are highly intelligent, well-educated >individuals. Highly *ethical* individuals, as well. So the fact that our >health care system is controlled by them is simply a fact, not a criticism. > If > you seriously doubt that our nation's health care system is controlled by >western medical professionals, then I suggest that you pick up a book on >basic " Health Services Administration in the United States " . It's just a >fact. A fact we all have to live with. Sorry if you find that to be a >negative statement about western medicine. It's really not. It's simply a >statement of reality. We should not shun reality, it's ok, once you try >it.... > > The fact is, I don't want to work under the direction of an M.D. in >order to practice Oriental Medicine. Not because they are evil people; >indeed, they tend to be *very nice* people. Primarily, I don't wish to be >forced to work under the direction of an M.D. because: > > 1. They tend to have little or no training in the theory and practice of >Oriental Medicine. How can someone supervise me when he knows little or >nothing about the subject matter at hand? That's not a criticism; it's ok >for them to have little or no knowledge regarding the theory and practice >of Oriental Medicine, since it's not their job. In fact, I'm impressed >with the ever-growing numbers of M.D.s who respect and have a strong >interest in Oriental Medicine, and who honestly try to educate themselves. >I just attended an acupuncture seminar with two M.D.s in the audience. They >were simply marvelous in every way imaginable. I was very impressed with >them both, and their sincere desire to help their patients. > > It just doesn't make sense to have such a person (with no training and >experience) supervising someone who HAS studied four or more years of >Oriental Medicine. It not only makes no sense, it could lead to problems, >which you can all imagine. I won't mention these problems explicitly, since >it would entail the use of the L-word :-), and it's better for us to >pretend that the L-word doesn't affect the practice of medicine in this >country :-) , right? > > 2. Due to the relatively " high-overhead " fashion in which western >medical clinics operate, putting us under their direction will only result >in increased costs of *providing* Oriental Medicine, and these costs would >be passed on to the consumer. > That's not a criticism of western medicine. It's just a fact. It costs >more to deliver western medicine, generally speaking, than it costs to >deliver Oriental Medicine. I'm not criticizing anyone or anything, I just >wonder why we would want to pass along higher costs to our already >financially pressured patient-base? We can't operate under their direction >without working within their " high-overhead " environment. So it will HAVE >to cost more. Of course, one way they could minimize the increased costs >to the consumer is by lowering the *salaries* of oriental medicine >practitioners who are working under the M.D.'s direction. But that's just >one possibility. It's not a criticism or anything negative. Just something >we need to consider. Maybe some of you can explain how we *can* work under >their direction without increasing the costs of care; that would make for a >highly entertaining discussion in it's own right. All of you failed >economists and bean-counters roll up your > sleeves and start typing!! :-) > Best Regards, > > Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D. > Raving, Ignorant Bigot (according to Miss Roseanne! :-) > > > > > > What are the most popular cars? Find out at Autos > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Thank you Mike, but I really don't want any books written until I've graduated. I certainly don't the school closed down before I graduate. I also cannot meet with individuals through this form of contact. I'm sure you are a wonderful guy, but it's not considered " safe " for women to connect with men they speak with online. Thank you very much and good luck to you. Rachel Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > > Rachel, > I would like to hear more about things here in MN. Maybe we could connect > offlist. I am a L Ac (PCOM) living in Mpls and currently attending NWCC. I > choose to do so due to many of the same reasons or realizations that you and > others have mentioned. > > I would like to hear more about your experiences and observations, they > might help me in writing a book for the lay public about things to consider > and where to find info for practice. There is much disparity and experience > that tends to shock us yet we are often ignorant until it happens to us. > > Let me know if a project like this sounds good to you. Thanks > Sincerely, > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > >golden lotus publishing <goldenlotuspublishing> > >Chinese Medicine > >Chinese Medicine > >Re: Digest Number 1259 > >Sat, 21 Jan 2006 17:11:25 -0800 (PST) > > > > " Rachel, when you started posting I was in sympathy with your gripes about > >dumbing down classes. But as you continue to insult the rest of us, you're > >coming very close to seeming like a raving, ignorant bigot. > > > >---roseanne " > > > > I may be a raving, ignorant bigot, :-) Rosanne, but I'm not afraid to > >post my remarks online for the public record. I don't have to sneek > >around, like you. You send your rant to me offline so you can maintain your > >image as a " nice " little TCM practitioner in front of others. I may be > >raving, and I may be a " bigot " ? (look up the definition of the term, > >sweetie, before you use it), but I'm certainly not ignorant. I'm actually > >extremely well informed regarding these issues. Probably far better > >informed than you could ever hope to be. My ideas frighten you, so you'd > >rather put your head in the sand, and call me ill-advised " names " offline, > >because it somehow helps you cope... Now THAT's ignorant... > > > > How's that for appropriate, Mr. Moderator? Sending people personal > >emails offline, calling them names (albeit in a rather childish, > >inarticulate fashion)? Not even having the personal integrity to say what > >she thinks in a public forum? Do you support THAT sort of activity?? I > >personally find it inappropriate. If you have something to say, say it in > >the public forum. If you are afraid to, then hold your tongue. > > > > The Moderator has accused me of speaking negatively about western > >medicine (albeit, not within the public forum, but offline; I don't think > >HE's too timid; maybe he just doesn't want you all to know that speech is > >being censored on this listserv, not for obscenity, but for ideas that > >differ from the status quo. I think that medical negligence is an issue > >which DOES affect Oriental Medicine, however, the Moderator disagrees. He > >thinks that a frank discussion of the issues involved represents " speaking > >negatively " about western medicine). > > > > The Moderator is not correct regarding my beliefs involving western > >medicine. For the record, I think western medicine is ok. It has it's > >issues, but generally speaking I'm glad we have it. When my husband had a > >stroke, it wasn't TCM practitioners who saved his life, it was a > >neurosurgeon, internists, nurses and others, all western medical > >practitioners. When people have cancerous lesions that need resection, > >chemotherapy and radiation, I'm glad that western medicine is there for > >them. Allopathic medicine has its strengths, and TCM has its own > >strengths. However, our country's healthcare system *is* controlled by > >western medicine. That's not a criticism, Mr. Moderator, that's simply a > >fact. I don't know that it's a *bad* thing at all! Western medical > >professionals, for the most part, are highly intelligent, well- educated > >individuals. Highly *ethical* individuals, as well. So the fact that our > >health care system is controlled by them is simply a fact, not a criticism. > > If > > you seriously doubt that our nation's health care system is controlled by > >western medical professionals, then I suggest that you pick up a book on > >basic " Health Services Administration in the United States " . It's just a > >fact. A fact we all have to live with. Sorry if you find that to be a > >negative statement about western medicine. It's really not. It's simply a > >statement of reality. We should not shun reality, it's ok, once you try > >it.... > > > > The fact is, I don't want to work under the direction of an M.D. in > >order to practice Oriental Medicine. Not because they are evil people; > >indeed, they tend to be *very nice* people. Primarily, I don't wish to be > >forced to work under the direction of an M.D. because: > > > > 1. They tend to have little or no training in the theory and practice of > >Oriental Medicine. How can someone supervise me when he knows little or > >nothing about the subject matter at hand? That's not a criticism; it's ok > >for them to have little or no knowledge regarding the theory and practice > >of Oriental Medicine, since it's not their job. In fact, I'm impressed > >with the ever-growing numbers of M.D.s who respect and have a strong > >interest in Oriental Medicine, and who honestly try to educate themselves. > >I just attended an acupuncture seminar with two M.D.s in the audience. They > >were simply marvelous in every way imaginable. I was very impressed with > >them both, and their sincere desire to help their patients. > > > > It just doesn't make sense to have such a person (with no training and > >experience) supervising someone who HAS studied four or more years of > >Oriental Medicine. It not only makes no sense, it could lead to problems, > >which you can all imagine. I won't mention these problems explicitly, since > >it would entail the use of the L-word :-), and it's better for us to > >pretend that the L-word doesn't affect the practice of medicine in this > >country :-) , right? > > > > 2. Due to the relatively " high-overhead " fashion in which western > >medical clinics operate, putting us under their direction will only result > >in increased costs of *providing* Oriental Medicine, and these costs would > >be passed on to the consumer. > > That's not a criticism of western medicine. It's just a fact. It costs > >more to deliver western medicine, generally speaking, than it costs to > >deliver Oriental Medicine. I'm not criticizing anyone or anything, I just > >wonder why we would want to pass along higher costs to our already > >financially pressured patient-base? We can't operate under their direction > >without working within their " high-overhead " environment. So it will HAVE > >to cost more. Of course, one way they could minimize the increased costs > >to the consumer is by lowering the *salaries* of oriental medicine > >practitioners who are working under the M.D.'s direction. But that's just > >one possibility. It's not a criticism or anything negative. Just something > >we need to consider. Maybe some of you can explain how we *can* work under > >their direction without increasing the costs of care; that would make for a > >highly entertaining discussion in it's own right. All of you failed > >economists and bean-counters roll up your > > sleeves and start typing!! :-) > > Best Regards, > > > > Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D. > > Raving, Ignorant Bigot (according to Miss Roseanne! :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > What are the most popular cars? Find out at Autos > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 In literary and scientific circles, proper " etiquette " demands that individuals not take someone else's words out of context in order to mislead others. >>>>>> Rachel i participate is several WM web lists and cutting and pasting is done all the time. Oakland, CA 94609 - goldenlotuspublishing Chinese Medicine Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:52 AM Re: Digest Number 1259 " Mr. Fuentes " , So as long as someone is an instructor, they should be excused when they do something as unethical as to cut and paste words from my post in order to place my words out of context, in order to mislead others? Is that *really* what you think? I've asked several others this same question, but none of you are able or willing to reply to *that*. Apparently, because you feel that you've personally benefitted from his writings in the past, you excuse this unethical conduct? You conveniently overlook it? And you call *me* unprofessional! I'm not sure you know the meaning of the word. In literary and scientific circles, proper " etiquette " demands that individuals not take someone else's words out of context in order to mislead others. If he *wasn't* trying to mislead anyone regarding these words, laboriously cut and pasted from my post, why did he fail to state this for the record? If it was just a monumental lapse of judgement on his part (it was clearly not a typo, he went to too much work), He was willing to be sarcastic with *me*, but when I gave him a little taste of his own medicine, he went all passive agressive on us, in a transparent attempt to gain sympathy. This lowered my respect for him even more. Respectfully, what does " derogatorive " mean? I didn't go to an " elitist " school like *you*, and Webster's dictionary indicates that there is no such word. But since *you* are so very professional, I'm sure you'll be able to define this seemingly new term in the English language :-) and enlighten us all. I'm sure it will be very informative. Just try to keep it accurate. Unlike your beloved Mr. Hayden.... Respectfully, Rachel H. Peterman Elitist, with bona fide degrees from " real " universities How about YOU, Mr. Fuentes :-) Chinese Medicine , gabe gabe <fuentes120> wrote: > > It's a shame that this discussion has ended in one of > the list members leaving. I have been reading Mr. > Hayden's informative posts for years now since I was > in school, though I personally do not know Mr. Hayden, > I think he is a practitioner that has delved deeper > than many into his craft. I do agree that there > should be higher standards of education but I think > they should be more relevant to the practice of > Oriental medicine; after all Oriental medicine is its > own paradigm, and that is what you will be practicing. > I also have to say that for the amount of education > that you claim to have, you lack simple etiquette, I > found some of your comments to be completely > unprofessional and elitist, there is no need for name > calling or any derogatorive comments in groups like > these, I benefited as a student from this group by > asking questions and getting responsible answers from > professionals like Mr. Hayden and others that are kind > enough to share their experiences and their knowledge. > I don't know if you are aware but in most schools in > America many teachers don't have the educational back > ground in Oriental medicine or the linguistic aptitude > to convey the information so groups like these are a > goldmine for students seeking clarification on > subjects that may not be well explained in their > classrooms. There are many professionals in this list > with very impressive backgrounds and a wealth of > knowledge and they should be respected as such. > Respectfully > Gabriel Fuentes > > > --- holmes <dkaikobad@c...> wrote: > > > holmes wrote: > > > Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D. wrote: > > > > > > > > > > what do these credentials stand for? > > > just curious > > > > > > dr holmes > > > www.acu-free.com > > > > > > > rachel, in case the first post missed you, and again > > for curiosities > > sake, what do the credenials signify? > > > > dr holmes > > www.acu-free.com > > > > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Rachel, Not sure where this is coming from but only wanted to collaborate on possible book ideas that might make things better for future students. I have often wondered about the cleanliness of your school when I taught a class and presented seminars there. I think that the programs here need some serious help. By the way, did you ever consider a CA-recognized program? Just curious. Best of luck to you also. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " goldenlotuspublishing " <goldenlotuspublishing >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Digest Number 1259 >Sun, 22 Jan 2006 21:00:20 -0000 > >Thank you Mike, > >but I really don't want any books written until I've graduated. I >certainly don't the school closed down before I graduate. I also >cannot meet with individuals through this form of contact. I'm sure >you are a wonderful guy, but it's not considered " safe " for women to >connect with men they speak with online. > >Thank you very much and good luck to you. > >Rachel > >Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " ><naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > > > > Rachel, > > I would like to hear more about things here in MN. Maybe we could >connect > > offlist. I am a L Ac (PCOM) living in Mpls and currently >attending NWCC. I > > choose to do so due to many of the same reasons or realizations >that you and > > others have mentioned. > > > > I would like to hear more about your experiences and observations, >they > > might help me in writing a book for the lay public about things to >consider > > and where to find info for practice. There is much disparity and >experience > > that tends to shock us yet we are often ignorant until it happens >to us. > > > > Let me know if a project like this sounds good to you. Thanks > > Sincerely, > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > > > > >golden lotus publishing <goldenlotuspublishing> > > >Chinese Medicine > > >Chinese Medicine > > >Re: Digest Number 1259 > > >Sat, 21 Jan 2006 17:11:25 -0800 (PST) > > > > > > " Rachel, when you started posting I was in sympathy with your >gripes about > > >dumbing down classes. But as you continue to insult the rest of >us, you're > > >coming very close to seeming like a raving, ignorant bigot. > > > > > >---roseanne " > > > > > > I may be a raving, ignorant bigot, :-) Rosanne, but I'm not >afraid to > > >post my remarks online for the public record. I don't have to >sneek > > >around, like you. You send your rant to me offline so you can >maintain your > > >image as a " nice " little TCM practitioner in front of others. I >may be > > >raving, and I may be a " bigot " ? (look up the definition of the >term, > > >sweetie, before you use it), but I'm certainly not ignorant. I'm >actually > > >extremely well informed regarding these issues. Probably far >better > > >informed than you could ever hope to be. My ideas frighten you, >so you'd > > >rather put your head in the sand, and call me ill-advised " names " >offline, > > >because it somehow helps you cope... Now THAT's ignorant... > > > > > > How's that for appropriate, Mr. Moderator? Sending people >personal > > >emails offline, calling them names (albeit in a rather childish, > > >inarticulate fashion)? Not even having the personal integrity to >say what > > >she thinks in a public forum? Do you support THAT sort of >activity?? I > > >personally find it inappropriate. If you have something to say, >say it in > > >the public forum. If you are afraid to, then hold your tongue. > > > > > > The Moderator has accused me of speaking negatively about >western > > >medicine (albeit, not within the public forum, but offline; I >don't think > > >HE's too timid; maybe he just doesn't want you all to know that >speech is > > >being censored on this listserv, not for obscenity, but for ideas >that > > >differ from the status quo. I think that medical negligence is >an issue > > >which DOES affect Oriental Medicine, however, the Moderator >disagrees. He > > >thinks that a frank discussion of the issues involved >represents " speaking > > >negatively " about western medicine). > > > > > > The Moderator is not correct regarding my beliefs involving >western > > >medicine. For the record, I think western medicine is ok. It >has it's > > >issues, but generally speaking I'm glad we have it. When my >husband had a > > >stroke, it wasn't TCM practitioners who saved his life, it was a > > >neurosurgeon, internists, nurses and others, all western medical > > >practitioners. When people have cancerous lesions that need >resection, > > >chemotherapy and radiation, I'm glad that western medicine is >there for > > >them. Allopathic medicine has its strengths, and TCM has its own > > >strengths. However, our country's healthcare system *is* >controlled by > > >western medicine. That's not a criticism, Mr. Moderator, that's >simply a > > >fact. I don't know that it's a *bad* thing at all! Western >medical > > >professionals, for the most part, are highly intelligent, well- >educated > > >individuals. Highly *ethical* individuals, as well. So the fact >that our > > >health care system is controlled by them is simply a fact, not a >criticism. > > > If > > > you seriously doubt that our nation's health care system is >controlled by > > >western medical professionals, then I suggest that you pick up a >book on > > >basic " Health Services Administration in the United States " . >It's just a > > >fact. A fact we all have to live with. Sorry if you find that >to be a > > >negative statement about western medicine. It's really not. >It's simply a > > >statement of reality. We should not shun reality, it's ok, once >you try > > >it.... > > > > > > The fact is, I don't want to work under the direction of an >M.D. in > > >order to practice Oriental Medicine. Not because they are evil >people; > > >indeed, they tend to be *very nice* people. Primarily, I don't >wish to be > > >forced to work under the direction of an M.D. because: > > > > > > 1. They tend to have little or no training in the theory and >practice of > > >Oriental Medicine. How can someone supervise me when he knows >little or > > >nothing about the subject matter at hand? That's not a >criticism; it's ok > > >for them to have little or no knowledge regarding the theory and >practice > > >of Oriental Medicine, since it's not their job. In fact, I'm >impressed > > >with the ever-growing numbers of M.D.s who respect and have a >strong > > >interest in Oriental Medicine, and who honestly try to educate >themselves. > > >I just attended an acupuncture seminar with two M.D.s in the >audience. They > > >were simply marvelous in every way imaginable. I was very >impressed with > > >them both, and their sincere desire to help their patients. > > > > > > It just doesn't make sense to have such a person (with no >training and > > >experience) supervising someone who HAS studied four or more >years of > > >Oriental Medicine. It not only makes no sense, it could lead to >problems, > > >which you can all imagine. I won't mention these problems >explicitly, since > > >it would entail the use of the L-word :-), and it's better for us >to > > >pretend that the L-word doesn't affect the practice of medicine >in this > > >country :-) , right? > > > > > > 2. Due to the relatively " high-overhead " fashion in which >western > > >medical clinics operate, putting us under their direction will >only result > > >in increased costs of *providing* Oriental Medicine, and these >costs would > > >be passed on to the consumer. > > > That's not a criticism of western medicine. It's just a >fact. It costs > > >more to deliver western medicine, generally speaking, than it >costs to > > >deliver Oriental Medicine. I'm not criticizing anyone or >anything, I just > > >wonder why we would want to pass along higher costs to our >already > > >financially pressured patient-base? We can't operate under their >direction > > >without working within their " high-overhead " environment. So it >will HAVE > > >to cost more. Of course, one way they could minimize the >increased costs > > >to the consumer is by lowering the *salaries* of oriental >medicine > > >practitioners who are working under the M.D.'s direction. But >that's just > > >one possibility. It's not a criticism or anything negative. Just >something > > >we need to consider. Maybe some of you can explain how we *can* >work under > > >their direction without increasing the costs of care; that would >make for a > > >highly entertaining discussion in it's own right. All of you >failed > > >economists and bean-counters roll up your > > > sleeves and start typing!! :-) > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D. > > > Raving, Ignorant Bigot (according to Miss Roseanne! :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are the most popular cars? Find out at Autos > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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