Digest Number 1259

http://health.Chinese Medicine/message/17639

January 21, 2006

Chinese Medicine , golden lotus publishing

<goldenlotuspublishing> wrote:

>

> > As far as the " baiting " goes, Robert, let me simply point out that only a

very

unscrupulous, unprofessional person cuts and pastes the work of another, placing

words

out of context, in an attempt to unfairly influence others.

RH: Rachel, this is the internet. People cut and paste as a matter of course.

Those were

your words, were they not? That was the tone you were aiming for, was it not?

>If you were an attorney, you would be disciplined and/or sued for what you did.

RH: Should i interpret this as a threat?

>However, you aren't an attorney, are you, Robert?

RH: Thankfully, i am not.

>I guess ignorance IS bliss. If you have even a small degree of personal

ethics, you know

that what you did was unethical, unprofessional, and wrong.

RH: No, i just did what i needed to in order to highlight particular examples of

name-

calling and ad-hominem embedded in the thicket of verbiage that constituted your

post.

Anyone is free to read the original posting, for further reference, it can be

found here:

>If you do something like that with the words of your competitor down the

street, you'll

find out just how wrong it really is.... but wait, your competitor must already

be getting all

the patients, or you wouldn't have entire afternoons to study a subject you

*should* have

already learned in school....

RH: Again, ad hominem. Is this the type of professional discussion you'd like

to see in

TCM?

Robert Hayden, L.Ac.

January 22, 2006

" Rachel, when you started posting I was in sympathy with your gripes about

dumbing down classes. But as you continue to insult the rest of us, you're

coming very close to seeming like a raving, ignorant bigot.

---roseanne "

I may be a raving, ignorant bigot, :-) Rosanne, but I'm not afraid to post my

remarks online for the public record. I don't have to sneek around, like you.

You send your rant to me offline so you can maintain your image as a " nice "

little TCM practitioner in front of others. I may be raving, and I may be a

" bigot " ? (look up the definition of the term, sweetie, before you use it), but

I'm certainly not ignorant. I'm actually extremely well informed regarding

these issues. Probably far better informed than you could ever hope to be. My

ideas frighten you, so you'd rather put your head in the sand, and call me

ill-advised " names " offline, because it somehow helps you cope... Now THAT's

ignorant...

How's that for appropriate, Mr. Moderator? Sending people personal emails

offline, calling them names (albeit in a rather childish, inarticulate fashion)?

Not even having the personal integrity to say what she thinks in a public forum?

Do you support THAT sort of activity?? I personally find it inappropriate. If

you have something to say, say it in the public forum. If you are afraid to,

then hold your tongue.

The Moderator has accused me of speaking negatively about western medicine

(albeit, not within the public forum, but offline; I don't think HE's too timid;

maybe he just doesn't want you all to know that speech is being censored on this

listserv, not for obscenity, but for ideas that differ from the status quo. I

think that medical negligence is an issue which DOES affect Oriental Medicine,

however, the Moderator disagrees. He thinks that a frank discussion of the

issues involved represents " speaking negatively " about western medicine).

The Moderator is not correct regarding my beliefs involving western medicine.

For the record, I think western medicine is ok. It has it's issues, but

generally speaking I'm glad we have it. When my husband had a stroke, it wasn't

TCM practitioners who saved his life, it was a neurosurgeon, internists, nurses

and others, all western medical practitioners. When people have cancerous

lesions that need resection, chemotherapy and radiation, I'm glad that western

medicine is there for them. Allopathic medicine has its strengths, and TCM has

its own strengths. However, our country's healthcare system *is* controlled by

western medicine. That's not a criticism, Mr. Moderator, that's simply a fact.

I don't know that it's a *bad* thing at all! Western medical professionals, for

the most part, are highly intelligent, well-educated individuals. Highly

*ethical* individuals, as well. So the fact that our health care system is

controlled by them is simply a fact, not a criticism. If

you seriously doubt that our nation's health care system is controlled by

western medical professionals, then I suggest that you pick up a book on basic

" Health Services Administration in the United States " . It's just a fact. A

fact we all have to live with. Sorry if you find that to be a negative

statement about western medicine. It's really not. It's simply a statement of

reality. We should not shun reality, it's ok, once you try it....

The fact is, I don't want to work under the direction of an M.D. in order to

practice Oriental Medicine. Not because they are evil people; indeed, they tend

to be *very nice* people. Primarily, I don't wish to be forced to work under the

direction of an M.D. because:

1. They tend to have little or no training in the theory and practice of

Oriental Medicine. How can someone supervise me when he knows little or nothing

about the subject matter at hand? That's not a criticism; it's ok for them to

have little or no knowledge regarding the theory and practice of Oriental

Medicine, since it's not their job. In fact, I'm impressed with the

ever-growing numbers of M.D.s who respect and have a strong interest in Oriental

Medicine, and who honestly try to educate themselves. I just attended an

acupuncture seminar with two M.D.s in the audience. They were simply marvelous

in every way imaginable. I was very impressed with them both, and their sincere

desire to help their patients.

It just doesn't make sense to have such a person (with no training and

experience) supervising someone who HAS studied four or more years of Oriental

Medicine. It not only makes no sense, it could lead to problems, which you can

all imagine. I won't mention these problems explicitly, since it would entail

the use of the L-word :-), and it's better for us to pretend that the L-word

doesn't affect the practice of medicine in this country :-) , right?

2. Due to the relatively " high-overhead " fashion in which western medical

clinics operate, putting us under their direction will only result in increased

costs of *providing* Oriental Medicine, and these costs would be passed on to

the consumer.

That's not a criticism of western medicine. It's just a fact. It costs more

to deliver western medicine, generally speaking, than it costs to deliver

Oriental Medicine. I'm not criticizing anyone or anything, I just wonder why we

would want to pass along higher costs to our already financially pressured

patient-base? We can't operate under their direction without working within

their " high-overhead " environment. So it will HAVE to cost more. Of course,

one way they could minimize the increased costs to the consumer is by lowering

the *salaries* of oriental medicine practitioners who are working under the

M.D.'s direction. But that's just one possibility. It's not a criticism or

anything negative. Just something we need to consider. Maybe some of you can

explain how we *can* work under their direction without increasing the costs of

care; that would make for a highly entertaining discussion in it's own right.

All of you failed economists and bean-counters roll up your

sleeves and start typing!! :-)

Best Regards,

Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D.

Raving, Ignorant Bigot (according to Miss Roseanne! :-)

What are the most popular cars? Find out at Autos

January 22, 2006

I wrote this morning and am now reluctant to get in the fray but here goes....

Wow, Rachel! You really know how to push the buttons don't you! Are you in the

clinic yet?

Treating patients? How's it going? Just curious.

For the record... I am/was an artist who finds that training the biggest asset

to

acupuncture practice. I also work in two schools (yes, I hear you, it's weird at

times) but I

can say greed is not running the schools I am at. I can't speak for the ones

you've chosen.

My colleagues are some of the best trained in the world and I'd say the biggest

impediment to students learning is their own conceptions of what the

acupuncture/

Really Is. For some it's artsy, for some it has the same

western paradigm

but grown in China.

There is one variable you forgot to mention and that is most of our students are

coming

from other careers and carry families and jobs and know exactly what they want

from a

school. They've done a number of other things and have enrolled because of a

love and/or

curiosity of the medicine and really want to be there. And yes, they get angry

when their

expectations don't get met. This anger is a huge issue at the schools in my

experience. It's

the angry student (yes, customer) storming into the Dean's office demanding

something

they want. It has gotten very good teachers classes taken away from them and

future

teachers " dumbing " down their classes. And it is only the financially secure

school that can

resist.

The one thing we don't have is careers at the end. I've seen that graduates

practicing the

most limited forms of CM are the ones most closely associated with Western

Medical

facilities. And I'm not sure that that gap will ever be bridged soon. And I've

talked to a lot

of Chinese Medical doctors from China who say they've only " discovered " or had

to

practice CM once they came to America and have to contend with patients without

their

biomedical tether.

There's more but that's all for now.

doug

January 22, 2006

Here's another unsolicited, offline remark re: school standards that deserves

feedback:

No Penel, I'm not saying that junior college courses don't " count " . They

" count " , as undergraduate level courses (as long as the school is regionally

accredited), just not as *graduate* level courses. What I *said* was, that the

courses being offered in MOST if not all TCM schools are ALSO taught at the

junior college level. Since these are allegedly *Master's* level programs, that

really isn't adequate, wouldn't you agree, based on your own academic

professional experience? Or haven't you ever actually *taught* on the college

or university level? Hmmm? Then how did you develop the ability to evaluate

graduate level course curricula, better than people who HAVE taught health care

grad-level courses for a decade or more? Just curious....

By the way, I took a number of classes at junior college, while I was still in

high school, as well as after graduation. I worked nights and weekends in a

nursing home to earn the tuition money. Mummy and Daddums didn't pay. So I

took these classes very seriously. The classes were extremely well taught, far

better than most TCM " graduate " level " bioscience " courses. But they were

undergraduate courses, not graduate level courses. You *do* understand that a

graduate level program should be teaching graduate level courses, not junior

college level courses, right??

My spouse was also uppity about junior college courses. He was also snotty

about my grad school (health services administration) courses, since I took them

at a small private Catholic university instead of at a major university. When

he saw what I went through to do the research, write, and defend my Master's

Thesis, he apologized. He admitted that his own Master's program, at a more

prestigious Catholic university, was not as rigorous. He has a right to be

uppity about the TCM courses, though. And if you'd been reading everyone

*else's* posts carefully, you'd realize that I'm not the *only* person who has

apparently made a " current poor choice of a school " LOL! The only other

" choice " in town is to drive across the city to a chiro school where they teach

" TCM ala chiro " . To take one or two years of " chiro-Herbs " instead of four

years of TCM Herbology. Etc, etc. Sounds like a *great* choice, doesn't it?

My professors were highly regarded in China, and almost all have well over

twenty years of full time TCM experience, not blended chiro-ersatz-TCM. The

administration has issues, but I've never criticized my professors. They are

very capable, learned people, who are forced to dumb down courses, etc, if they

don't want to lose their work visas and get sent back to China. Some day,

you'll understand " market realities " like this, and it will offend you. You will

want to speak out about it, even if it scares some people. And when they feel

scared, they react with anger. It's only natural...

Perhaps it is YOU who are " making assumptions " , my dear? And you made those

assumptions because 1. You didn't read the posts carefully, and 2. You *so* want

to disagree with me that you are making poorly constructed arguments, just for

the sake of speaking out. Why? Your poor little feelings are hurt because you

like the dreamy earth-healer self-concept and you hate it when anyone rains on

your dream-world parade with the realities of what our profession faces in the

regulatory and legislative storm that is brewing. Of course, you never intended

your sweet little remarks to be read by the others on the listserv, but ooops,

you write them to me, and I send them along to the group for all to see, along

with my reply! That’s what I do with EVERY unsolicited offline “comment”, by

the way. If you were at all sure of yourself or your opinions, you would have

replied to the group, rather than sending your message offline. It shows a

certain lack of self-assurance, and conviction in

your own beliefs. In your case, however, there is good reason to lack some

conviction. Educate yourself regarding the issues, read CAREFULLY, THEN reply,

o.k.? And reply to the digest, not in private. It's supposed to be a public

forum.

Best Regards,

Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D.

" Hi Rachel,

You're telling me the biology (microbiology, anatomy/physiology,

cadaver)

and chemistry (both lecture and lab courses) I took don't count as

valid

because I took them at a jr. college?

They transfer just fine to 4 year colleges and, for their cost, were

quite a bargain.

My husband, a physicist, at first treated my classes as highschool

level.

We were both pleasantly surprised to discover all my classes were being

taught by PhD.s moon lighting from a local major university (while the

undergrads at that university probably study under a grad. student TA).

Perhaps you've made assumptions based on your current poor choice of

a school?

Penel "

Photos

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January 22, 2006

Clinic's going incredibly well, thank you. I'm getting new patients

faster than anyone else, because I already learned the fine art of

practice building and self-promotion at the knee of some highly

successful business professionals. My patients appreciate my

enthusiasm, professionalism, and honesty. There's no need to " push

buttons " with patients in most cases. Wouldn't dream of doing it.

But most of my patients are a great deal more pragmatic and

realistic than most of my collegues. Even my patients, with no

health care background, see the writing on the wall for TCM, if

things don't change. They are as worried about the future as anyone

of us.

I greatly admire artists, but there are realities affecting TCM that

have nothing to do with art. You can continue to believe that TCM is

some sort of holy art, with no business, professional, regulatory,

legislative or cultural factors affecting it, sorry, but the world

just doesn't work that way. If TCM were only an art, it would not

be regulated as a licensed health care profession. It's as simple as

that.

And the jobs issue can't be denied. It's a problem. If you aren't

an incredibly intelligent, self-motivated business person, you're

probably going to fail. And that's too bad. The skills needed to

practice medicine should be self-supporting, without all of the

endless self promotion involved in eaking out a living as a

tradesman, instead of as the member of a learned profession. It

would be " nice " , I suppose, to practice in a world entirely

unencumbered by WM, but that just isn't going to happen. We need to

accept that, analyze the situation the way chiro's did, develop a

strategy for survival within a world defined by WM, and preserve our

right to practice independently. No one is going to be generous and

hand it to us on a silver platter. We will have to fight for it.

I recognize that you don't like it when people's " buttons are

pushed " , but consider the famous words of Frederic Douglas:

" Agitate, Agitate, Agitate "

not

" Be all passive and new-age, and good things will come to you with

no effort on your part "

just something to think about, gang....

Chinese Medicine , " "

<res19zl9@v...> wrote:

>

> I wrote this morning and am now reluctant to get in the fray but

here goes....

>

> Wow, Rachel! You really know how to push the buttons don't you!

Are you in the clinic yet?

> Treating patients? How's it going? Just curious.

>

> For the record... I am/was an artist who finds that training the

biggest asset to

> acupuncture practice. I also work in two schools (yes, I hear you,

it's weird at times) but I

> can say greed is not running the schools I am at. I can't speak

for the ones you've chosen.

> My colleagues are some of the best trained in the world and I'd

say the biggest

> impediment to students learning is their own conceptions of what

the acupuncture/

> Really Is. For some it's artsy, for some it has

the same western paradigm

> but grown in China.

>

> There is one variable you forgot to mention and that is most of

our students are coming

> from other careers and carry families and jobs and know exactly

what they want from a

> school. They've done a number of other things and have enrolled

because of a love and/or

> curiosity of the medicine and really want to be there. And yes,

they get angry when their

> expectations don't get met. This anger is a huge issue at the

schools in my experience. It's

> the angry student (yes, customer) storming into the Dean's office

demanding something

> they want. It has gotten very good teachers classes taken away

from them and future

> teachers " dumbing " down their classes. And it is only the

financially secure school that can

> resist.

>

> The one thing we don't have is careers at the end. I've seen that

graduates practicing the

> most limited forms of CM are the ones most closely associated with

Western Medical

> facilities. And I'm not sure that that gap will ever be bridged

soon. And I've talked to a lot

> of Chinese Medical doctors from China who say they've

only " discovered " or had to

> practice CM once they came to America and have to contend with

patients without their

> biomedical tether.

>

> There's more but that's all for now.

> doug

>

January 22, 2006

M.S.: Master of Science (Major: Health Services Administration)

J.D.: Juris Doctor: " Doctor of Law " (Major: Law)

What does the credential " dr " stand for? Is it anything like " Dr. " ?

Just curious :-)

Best Regards,

Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D.

Chinese Medicine , holmes

<dkaikobad@c...> wrote:

>

> Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D. wrote:

> >

>

> what do these credentials stand for?

> just curious

>

> dr holmes

>

January 22, 2006

holmes wrote:

> Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D. wrote:

> >

>

> what do these credentials stand for?

> just curious

>

> dr holmes

>

rachel, in case the first post missed you, and again for curiosities

sake, what do the credenials signify?

dr holmes

January 22, 2006

In this country, a lot more than foreign degrees in public health.

CHEERS, " dr "

Chinese Medicine , holmes

<dkaikobad@c...> wrote:

>

> holmes wrote:

> > Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D. wrote:

> > >

> >

> > what do these credentials stand for?

> > just curious

> >

> > dr holmes

> >

>

> rachel, in case the first post missed you, and again for

curiosities

> sake, what do the credenials signify?

>

> dr holmes

>

January 22, 2006

Since we strive to use correct language on this list serve, and

ruthlessly play " one-upsmanship " when someone makes a mistake,

I should add that I *think* the the word you are striving for

is " curiosity's " as in " curiosity's sake " . " Curiosities " are,

according to Webster's dictionary, unusual knicknacks or curios :-)

Or were you asking the question on behalf of your unusual knicknacks

or curios, " dr " ?

Have a nice evening. Tell your unusual knicknacks or curios hello

for me! :-), and fill them in on all of the specifics regarding my

educational background! You are SO sweet!

Rachel

Chinese Medicine , holmes

<dkaikobad@c...> wrote:

>

> holmes wrote:

> > Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D. wrote:

> > >

> >

> > what do these credentials stand for?

> > just curious

> >

> > dr holmes

> >

>

> rachel, in case the first post missed you, and again for

curiosities

> sake, what do the credenials signify?

>

> dr holmes

>

January 22, 2006

It’s a shame that this discussion has ended in one of

the list members leaving. I have been reading Mr.

Hayden’s informative posts for years now since I was

in school, though I personally do not know Mr. Hayden,

I think he is a practitioner that has delved deeper

than many into his craft. I do agree that there

should be higher standards of education but I think

they should be more relevant to the practice of

Oriental medicine; after all Oriental medicine is its

own paradigm, and that is what you will be practicing.

I also have to say that for the amount of education

that you claim to have, you lack simple etiquette, I

found some of your comments to be completely

unprofessional and elitist, there is no need for name

calling or any derogatorive comments in groups like

these, I benefited as a student from this group by

asking questions and getting responsible answers from

professionals like Mr. Hayden and others that are kind

enough to share their experiences and their knowledge.

I don’t know if you are aware but in most schools in

America many teachers don’t have the educational back

ground in Oriental medicine or the linguistic aptitude

to convey the information so groups like these are a

goldmine for students seeking clarification on

subjects that may not be well explained in their

classrooms. There are many professionals in this list

with very impressive backgrounds and a wealth of

knowledge and they should be respected as such.

Respectfully

Gabriel Fuentes

--- holmes <dkaikobad wrote:

> holmes wrote:

> > Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D. wrote:

> > >

> >

> > what do these credentials stand for?

> > just curious

> >

> > dr holmes

> >

>

> rachel, in case the first post missed you, and again

> for curiosities

> sake, what do the credenials signify?

>

> dr holmes

>

January 22, 2006

holmes wrote:

> holmes wrote:

>

>>Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D. wrote:

>> >

>>

>>what do these credentials stand for?

>>just curious

>>

>>dr holmes

>>www.acu-free.com

>>

>

> rachel, in case the first post missed you, and again for curiosities

> sake, what do the credenials signify?

>

> dr holmes

Hi Dr. Holmes!

Since Rachel appears to be away from her email at the moment, I will

answer that question in her stead. MS is Masters of Science, JD is Juris

Doctor. The lady is a Lawyer who has an advanced scientific degree as well.

Regards,

Pete

January 22, 2006

" Mr. Fuentes " ,

So as long as someone is an instructor, they should be excused when

they do something as unethical as to cut and paste words from my

post in order to place my words out of context, in order to mislead

others? Is that *really* what you think? I've asked several others

this same question, but none of you are able or willing to reply to

*that*. Apparently, because you feel that you've personally

benefitted from his writings in the past, you excuse this unethical

conduct? You conveniently overlook it? And you call *me*

unprofessional! I'm not sure you know the meaning of the word.

In literary and scientific circles, proper " etiquette " demands that

individuals not take someone else's words out of context in order to

mislead others. If he *wasn't* trying to mislead anyone regarding

these words, laboriously cut and pasted from my post, why did he

fail to state this for the record? If it was just a monumental lapse

of judgement on his part (it was clearly not a typo, he went to too

much work), He was willing to be sarcastic with *me*, but when I gave him a

little taste of his own medicine, he went all passive agressive on us, in a

transparent attempt to gain sympathy. This lowered my respect for him even

more.

Respectfully, what does " derogatorive " mean? I didn't go to

an " elitist " school like *you*, and Webster's dictionary indicates

that there is no such word. But since *you* are so very

professional, I'm sure you'll be able to define this seemingly new

term in the English language :-) and enlighten us all. I'm sure it

will be very informative. Just try to keep it accurate. Unlike your

beloved Mr. Hayden....

Respectfully,

Rachel H. Peterman

Elitist, with bona fide degrees from " real " universities

How about YOU, Mr. Fuentes :-)

Chinese Medicine , gabe gabe

<fuentes120> wrote:

>

> It's a shame that this discussion has ended in one of

> the list members leaving. I have been reading Mr.

> Hayden's informative posts for years now since I was

> in school, though I personally do not know Mr. Hayden,

> I think he is a practitioner that has delved deeper

> than many into his craft. I do agree that there

> should be higher standards of education but I think

> they should be more relevant to the practice of

> Oriental medicine; after all Oriental medicine is its

> own paradigm, and that is what you will be practicing.

> I also have to say that for the amount of education

> that you claim to have, you lack simple etiquette, I

> found some of your comments to be completely

> unprofessional and elitist, there is no need for name

> calling or any derogatorive comments in groups like

> these, I benefited as a student from this group by

> asking questions and getting responsible answers from

> professionals like Mr. Hayden and others that are kind

> enough to share their experiences and their knowledge.

> I don't know if you are aware but in most schools in

> America many teachers don't have the educational back

> ground in Oriental medicine or the linguistic aptitude

> to convey the information so groups like these are a

> goldmine for students seeking clarification on

> subjects that may not be well explained in their

> classrooms. There are many professionals in this list

> with very impressive backgrounds and a wealth of

> knowledge and they should be respected as such.

> Respectfully

> Gabriel Fuentes

>

> --- holmes <dkaikobad@c...> wrote:

>

> > holmes wrote:

> > > Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D. wrote:

> > > >

> > >

> > > what do these credentials stand for?

> > > just curious

> > >

> > > dr holmes

> > >

> >

> > rachel, in case the first post missed you, and again

> > for curiosities

> > sake, what do the credenials signify?

> >

> > dr holmes

> >

>

January 22, 2006

and the other degrees your website lists:

Rachel H. Peterman, PhD, CCHt

Specializing in Acupuncture Needle Anxiety

again, just curious

by the way are you a licensed ac or a national boards in ac?

dr holmes

goldenlotuspublishing wrote:

> M.S.: Master of Science (Major: Health Services Administration)

> J.D.: Juris Doctor: " Doctor of Law " (Major: Law)

>

> What does the credential " dr " stand for? Is it anything like " Dr. " ?

> Just curious :-)

>

> Best Regards,

>

> Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D.

>

> Chinese Medicine , holmes

> <dkaikobad@c...> wrote:

> >

> > Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D. wrote:

> > >

> >

> > what do these credentials stand for?

> > just curious

> >

> > dr holmes

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

> >

>

January 22, 2006

Rachel:

The Moderator has accused me of speaking negatively about western medicine

(albeit, not within the public forum, but offline; I don't think HE's too

timid; maybe he just doesn't want you all to know that speech is being

censored on this listserv, not for obscenity, but for ideas that differ from

the status quo. I think that medical negligence is an issue which DOES

affect Oriental Medicine, however, the Moderator disagrees. He thinks that

a frank discussion of the issues involved represents " speaking negatively "

about western medicine).

You are not allowed to discuss WM in a negative manner. We all had a poll

on this sometime last year and agreed that winging and complaining about WM

was not getting us anyway. So please respect the group's rules rather than

criticise them.

Another thing, constantly discussing law is not the purpose of this group

unless its law in relation to TCM. Please remember that.

Warm regards,

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M.

Editor

Times

07786 198900

enquiries

January 22, 2006

Rachel,

Respectfully,

Rachel H. Peterman

Elitist, with bona fide degrees from " real " universities

How about YOU, Mr. Fuentes :-)

Comments such as this are considered flaming and are not permitted on this

forum. Please respect other people's qualifications and stop spitting fire

at everyone.

Warm regards,

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M.

Editor

Times

07786 198900

enquiries

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

January 22, 2006

hi rachel

your website lists the following:

quote:

Rachel H. Peterman earned her B.S., M.S. degree in Health Services

Administration and Juris Doctor degree from the University of Minnesota

Law School.

After over a decade of legal practice and university teaching

experience, she earned her M.S. and Ph.D. degrees in Clinical

Hypnotherapy through a distance learning degree program at Buxton

University.

She is currently a student of Oriental Medicine & Acupuncture,

incorporating eastern philosophy and meridian theory in her clinical

hypnotherapy practice.

end quote:

i see that you are still a student of TCM, and it is laudable that you

have so much interest and dedication to it

out of curiosity i looked up the link to Buxton University, when you

click it it opens to Rochville University

that link is: http://tinyurl.com/7skjy

the blurb at this page says:

quote:

It's now possible to earn affordable

Accredited Degrees!

Affordable Degrees No Studies

Affordable Degrees No Attendance

Affordable Degrees No Waiting

endquote:

a link to another page takes one to actual degrees and costs involved:

http://tinyurl.com/b7szb

it lists a: Doctorate Degree for $599.00

this does not mean you have anything but the most prestigious degree,

far from it

i simply followed links from your website and these led to these

interesting nooks and corners

just as an aside, everyone else on this forum must have spent years on

end to study for and, at the cost of thousands of dollars, graduate and

go on to a licentiate ship or a doctorate

they go through a grind on a daily basis out of dedication to their

chosen profession, and struggle for years on end to have a viable practice

dr holmes

holmes wrote:

> and the other degrees your website lists:

>

> Rachel H. Peterman, PhD, CCHt

> Specializing in Acupuncture Needle Anxiety

>

> again, just curious

>

> by the way are you a licensed ac or a national boards in ac?

>

> dr holmes

>

> goldenlotuspublishing wrote:

> > M.S.: Master of Science (Major: Health Services Administration)

> > J.D.: Juris Doctor: " Doctor of Law " (Major: Law)

> >

> > What does the credential " dr " stand for? Is it anything like " Dr. " ?

> > Just curious :-)

> >

> > Best Regards,

> >

> > Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D.

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , holmes

> > <dkaikobad@c...> wrote:

> > >

> > > Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D. wrote:

> > > >

> > >

> > > what do these credentials stand for?

> > > just curious

> > >

> > > dr holmes

> http://tinyurl.com/b7szb

> > >

January 22, 2006

Hi " dr "

I've asked you several times what " dr " stands for, and you seem

afraid to reply. You demanded to know several times what my degrees

are, and you were answered. Why are you so afraid to explain

what " dr " really stands for? If it's important for me to answer

your questions, then why can't you kindly reciprocate, " dr " ?

Is that your first name, or an irregular abbreviation of doctor?

Who on earth named you " dr " ? And why don't you use your given name,

like everyone on the listserv? Are you pompus? arrogant? Too

superior to mere students to disclose your given name in their

presence? Just curious.

love Rachel

Chinese Medicine , holmes

<dkaikobad@c...> wrote:

>

> hi rachel

>

> your website lists the following:

>

> quote:

>

> Rachel H. Peterman earned her B.S., M.S. degree in Health

Services

> Administration and Juris Doctor degree from the University of

Minnesota

> Law School.

>

> After over a decade of legal practice and university teaching

> experience, she earned her M.S. and Ph.D. degrees in Clinical

> Hypnotherapy through a distance learning degree program at Buxton

> University.

>

> She is currently a student of Oriental Medicine & Acupuncture,

> incorporating eastern philosophy and meridian theory in her

clinical

> hypnotherapy practice.

>

> end quote:

>

> i see that you are still a student of TCM, and it is laudable that

you

> have so much interest and dedication to it

>

> out of curiosity i looked up the link to Buxton University, when

you

> click it it opens to Rochville University

>

> that link is: http://tinyurl.com/7skjy

>

> the blurb at this page says:

>

> quote:

> It's now possible to earn affordable

> Accredited Degrees!

>

> Affordable Degrees No Studies

> Affordable Degrees No Attendance

> Affordable Degrees No Waiting

>

> endquote:

>

> a link to another page takes one to actual degrees and costs

involved:

>

> it lists a: Doctorate Degree for $599.00

>

> this does not mean you have anything but the most prestigious

degree,

> far from it

>

> i simply followed links from your website and these led to these

> interesting nooks and corners

>

> just as an aside, everyone else on this forum must have spent

years on

> end to study for and, at the cost of thousands of dollars,

graduate and

> go on to a licentiate ship or a doctorate

>

> they go through a grind on a daily basis out of dedication to

their

> chosen profession, and struggle for years on end to have a viable

practice

>

> dr holmes

>

> holmes wrote:

> > and the other degrees your website lists:

> >

> > Rachel H. Peterman, PhD, CCHt

> > Specializing in Acupuncture Needle Anxiety

> >

> > again, just curious

> >

> > by the way are you a licensed ac or a national boards in ac?

> >

> > dr holmes

> http://tinyurl.com/b7szb

> >

> > goldenlotuspublishing wrote:

> > > M.S.: Master of Science (Major: Health Services

Administration)

> > > J.D.: Juris Doctor: " Doctor of Law " (Major: Law)

> > >

> > > What does the credential " dr " stand for? Is it anything

like " Dr. " ?

> > > Just curious :-)

> > >

> > > Best Regards,

> > >

> > > Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D.

> > >

> > > Chinese Medicine , holmes

> > > <dkaikobad@c...> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D. wrote:

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > what do these credentials stand for?

> > > > just curious

> > > >

> > > > dr holmes

> > > > www.acu-free.com

> > > >

>

January 22, 2006

" dr "

that's really interesting. I found several links to " Buxton

University " which open to Rocheville, and other bogus programs,

too. You can also find similar links bearing the name of several

other schools, a great deal more prestigeous that " Buxton " that are

*not* official university links, but links to these fly by night

programs. You can find similar links which say, perhaps not " Yale " ,

but perhaps the name of a university with a less active l-word

department, which *also* open to Rocheville, etc., but that does

*not* mean that Yale or any of these other universities are actually

affiliated with Rocheville, or any other diploma mill. What it means

is that diploma mills are using the names of real colleges to lead

people to their diploma mill web sites. And I suspect that it

wasn't a mistake, " dr " , I suspect that you knew this. What you have

just done could be viewed by many to be nearly as deceptive as

cutting and pasting someone's words and placing them out of

context. But I'm not going to assume that you, too, lower yourself

to silly little deceptions like that.

If I were a petty, unethical person, I could take the name of

your " universities " from which you obtained your " degrees " (which

you thusfar have refused to disclose, even after demanding such

information from *me*), find similar advertising links in Google,

and " pretend " that I honestly think that your universities are also

affiliated with Rocheville or someother diploma mill. But I would

never stoop to such tactics, " dr " . I could go search for your

information and do the same thing as you have done, but I would

never do that to someone else because it is deceptive, and wrong.

It would be a pathetic attempt to mislead the other readers

regarding someone's else's credentials or education. I wouldn't do

that to YOU, even though I *could*, because its a low, deceptive,

misleading and consumately unethical little trick. I would expect

better conduct from any TCM practitioner, let alone one who has no

first name and goes by " dr "

I'm reminded of the times when the great illusionist, Harry Houdini,

became incensed at the cheap deceptive tricks that mediums used to

try to mislead the public. As soon as he started exposing these

people and their cruel, unethical acts (preying on the emotions of

griefstricken people by claiming to communicate with their dead

loved ones), the mediums started to panic, didn't know how to

respond with intelligence and logic, and thus tried to smear poor

Harry Houdini, just for trying to protect the public. They tried to

mislead the public with very cheap, unethical tricks, which they

knew that most people would never investigate in order to determine

the veracity of the acusations.

Unfortunately for you, " dr " many listserv members are *very*

Internet savvy. When they see these links and realize what you have

done, what will they think of you, Hmmm? When you wrote that post in

a blind rage, did you think about what would happen when other

readers discovered your deception? I don't think so.

This is an excellent object lesson for ALL listserv users. Don't get

your emotions so stirred up that you lose all ability to act in a

logical and ethical fashion. Don't try to mislead other readers

regarding someone's credentials or statements just because you lack

the oratory or literary skills to engage in intelligent

disagreement. Done in this fashion, it's just soooo wrong.

Best Regards,

Rachel Peterman

Chinese Medicine , holmes

<dkaikobad@c...> wrote:

>

> hi rachel

>

> your website lists the following:

>

> quote:

>

> Rachel H. Peterman earned her B.S., M.S. degree in Health

Services

> Administration and Juris Doctor degree from the University of

Minnesota

> Law School.

>

> After over a decade of legal practice and university teaching

> experience, she earned her M.S. and Ph.D. degrees in Clinical

> Hypnotherapy through a distance learning degree program at Buxton

> University.

>

> She is currently a student of Oriental Medicine & Acupuncture,

> incorporating eastern philosophy and meridian theory in her

clinical

> hypnotherapy practice.

>

> end quote:

>

> i see that you are still a student of TCM, and it is laudable that

you

> have so much interest and dedication to it

>

> out of curiosity i looked up the link to Buxton University, when

you

> click it it opens to Rochville University

>

> that link is: http://tinyurl.com/7skjy

>

> the blurb at this page says:

>

> quote:

> It's now possible to earn affordable

> Accredited Degrees!

>

> Affordable Degrees No Studies

> Affordable Degrees No Attendance

> Affordable Degrees No Waiting

>

> endquote:

>

> a link to another page takes one to actual degrees and costs

involved:

>

> it lists a: Doctorate Degree for $599.00

>

> this does not mean you have anything but the most prestigious

degree,

> far from it

>

> i simply followed links from your website and these led to these

> interesting nooks and corners

>

> just as an aside, everyone else on this forum must have spent

years on

> end to study for and, at the cost of thousands of dollars,

graduate and

> go on to a licentiate ship or a doctorate

>

> they go through a grind on a daily basis out of dedication to

their

> chosen profession, and struggle for years on end to have a viable

practice

>

> dr holmes

>

> holmes wrote:

> > and the other degrees your website lists:

> >

> > Rachel H. Peterman, PhD, CCHt

> > Specializing in Acupuncture Needle Anxiety

> >

> > again, just curious

> >

> > by the way are you a licensed ac or a national boards in ac?

> >

> > dr holmes

> >

> > goldenlotuspublishing wrote:

> > > M.S.: Master of Science (Major: Health Services

Administration)

> > > J.D.: Juris Doctor: " Doctor of Law " (Major: Law)

> > >

> > > What does the credential " dr " stand for? Is it anything

like " Dr. " ?

> > > Just curious :-)

> > >

> > > Best Regards,

> > >

> > > Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D.

> > >

> > > Chinese Medicine , holmes

> > > <dkaikobad@c...> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D. wrote:

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > what do these credentials stand for?

> > > > just curious

> > > >

> > > > dr holmes

> > > > www.acu-free.com

> > > >

>

January 22, 2006

obliged for the elucidation

for the edification of the forum, which one of your credentials allow

you to practice acupuncture?

dr holmes

goldenlotuspublishing wrote:

> " dr "

> that's really interesting. I found several links to " Buxton

> University " which open to Rocheville, and other bogus programs,

> too. You can also find similar links bearing the name of several

> other schools, a great deal more prestigeous that " Buxton " that are

> *not* official university links, but links to these fly by night

> programs. You can find similar links which say, perhaps not " Yale " ,

> but perhaps the name of a university with a less active l-word

> department, which *also* open to Rocheville, etc., but that does

> *not* mean that Yale or any of these other universities are actually

> affiliated with Rocheville, or any other diploma mill. What it means

> is that diploma mills are using the names of real colleges to lead

> people to their diploma mill web sites. And I suspect that it

> wasn't a mistake, " dr " , I suspect that you knew this. What you have

> just done could be viewed by many to be nearly as deceptive as

> cutting and pasting someone's words and placing them out of

> context. But I'm not going to assume that you, too, lower yourself

> to silly little deceptions like that.

>

> If I were a petty, unethical person, I could take the name of

> your " universities " from which you obtained your " degrees " (which

> you thusfar have refused to disclose, even after demanding such

> information from *me*), find similar advertising links in Google,

> and " pretend " that I honestly think that your universities are also

> affiliated with Rocheville or someother diploma mill. But I would

> never stoop to such tactics, " dr " . I could go search for your

> information and do the same thing as you have done, but I would

> never do that to someone else because it is deceptive, and wrong.

> It would be a pathetic attempt to mislead the other readers

> regarding someone's else's credentials or education. I wouldn't do

> that to YOU, even though I *could*, because its a low, deceptive,

> misleading and consumately unethical little trick. I would expect

> better conduct from any TCM practitioner, let alone one who has no

> first name and goes by " dr "

>

> I'm reminded of the times when the great illusionist, Harry Houdini,

> became incensed at the cheap deceptive tricks that mediums used to

> try to mislead the public. As soon as he started exposing these

> people and their cruel, unethical acts (preying on the emotions of

> griefstricken people by claiming to communicate with their dead

> loved ones), the mediums started to panic, didn't know how to

> respond with intelligence and logic, and thus tried to smear poor

> Harry Houdini, just for trying to protect the public. They tried to

> mislead the public with very cheap, unethical tricks, which they

> knew that most people would never investigate in order to determine

> the veracity of the acusations.

>

> Unfortunately for you, " dr " many listserv members are *very*

> Internet savvy. When they see these links and realize what you have

> done, what will they think of you, Hmmm? When you wrote that post in

> a blind rage, did you think about what would happen when other

> readers discovered your deception? I don't think so.

>

> This is an excellent object lesson for ALL listserv users. Don't get

> your emotions so stirred up that you lose all ability to act in a

> logical and ethical fashion. Don't try to mislead other readers

> regarding someone's credentials or statements just because you lack

> the oratory or literary skills to engage in intelligent

> disagreement. Done in this fashion, it's just soooo wrong.

>

> Best Regards,

>

> Rachel Peterman

>

> Chinese Medicine , holmes

> <dkaikobad@c...> wrote:

> >

> > hi rachel

> >

> > your website lists the following:

> >

> > quote:

> >

> > Rachel H. Peterman earned her B.S., M.S. degree in Health

> Services

> > Administration and Juris Doctor degree from the University of

> Minnesota

> > Law School.

> >

> > After over a decade of legal practice and university teaching

> > experience, she earned her M.S. and Ph.D. degrees in Clinical

> > Hypnotherapy through a distance learning degree program at Buxton

> > University.

> >

> > She is currently a student of Oriental Medicine & Acupuncture,

> > incorporating eastern philosophy and meridian theory in her

> clinical

> > hypnotherapy practice.

> >

> > end quote:

> >

> > i see that you are still a student of TCM, and it is laudable that

> you

> > have so much interest and dedication to it

> >

> > out of curiosity i looked up the link to Buxton University, when

> you

> > click it it opens to Rochville University

> >

> > that link is: http://tinyurl.com/7skjy

> >

> > the blurb at this page says:

> >

> > quote:

> > It's now possible to earn affordable

> > Accredited Degrees!

> >

> > Affordable Degrees No Studies

> > Affordable Degrees No Attendance

> > Affordable Degrees No Waiting

> >

> > endquote:

> >

> > a link to another page takes one to actual degrees and costs

> involved:

> > http://tinyurl.com/b7szb

> >

> > it lists a: Doctorate Degree for $599.00

> >

> > this does not mean you have anything but the most prestigious

> degree,

> > far from it

> >

> > i simply followed links from your website and these led to these

> > interesting nooks and corners

> >

> > just as an aside, everyone else on this forum must have spent

> years on

> > end to study for and, at the cost of thousands of dollars,

> graduate and

> > go on to a licentiate ship or a doctorate

> >

> > they go through a grind on a daily basis out of dedication to

> their

> > chosen profession, and struggle for years on end to have a viable

> practice

> >

> > dr holmes

> >

> > holmes wrote:

> > > and the other degrees your website lists:

> > >

> > > Rachel H. Peterman, PhD, CCHt

> > > Specializing in Acupuncture Needle Anxiety

> > >

> > > again, just curious

> > >

> > > by the way are you a licensed ac or a national boards in ac?

> > >

> > > dr holmes

> > >

> > > goldenlotuspublishing wrote:

> > > > M.S.: Master of Science (Major: Health Services

> Administration)

> > > > J.D.: Juris Doctor: " Doctor of Law " (Major: Law)

> > > >

> > > > What does the credential " dr " stand for? Is it anything

> like " Dr. " ?

> > > > Just curious :-)

> > > >

> > > > Best Regards,

> > > >

> > > > Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D.

> > > >

> > > > Chinese Medicine , holmes

> > > > <dkaikobad@c...> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D. wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > what do these credentials stand for?

> > > > > just curious

> > > > >

> > > > > dr holmes

> > > > > www.acu-free.com

> > > > >

> >

January 22, 2006

Thanks for helping out " dr " holm. Now maybe you can help out the

rest of us. He demanded and received my credentials. However, after

numerous requests, he has failed to indicate what " dr " stands for,

and what sort of degrees that HE might have. Maybe he'll answer a

request from YOU! Wouldn't it be interesting to know?

take care,

Rachel

Chinese Medicine , petetheisen

<petetheisen@v...> wrote:

>

> holmes wrote:

> > holmes wrote:

> >

> >>Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D. wrote:

> >> >

> >>

> >>what do these credentials stand for?

> >>just curious

> >>

> >>dr holmes

> >>www.acu-free.com

> >>

> >

> > rachel, in case the first post missed you, and again for

curiosities

> > sake, what do the credenials signify?

> >

> > dr holmes

>

> Hi Dr. Holmes!

>

> Since Rachel appears to be away from her email at the moment, I

will

> answer that question in her stead. MS is Masters of Science, JD is

Juris

> Doctor. The lady is a Lawyer who has an advanced scientific degree

as well.

>

> Regards,

>

> Pete

>

January 22, 2006

As a student of acupuncture, I am allowed by statute to practice.

It's a statutory right, not a credential. Statutes are state laws

that govern TCM, as well as a host of other professions.

Rachel

Chinese Medicine , holmes

<dkaikobad@c...> wrote:

>

> obliged for the elucidation

>

> for the edification of the forum, which one of your credentials

allow

> you to practice acupuncture?

>

> dr holmes

>

> goldenlotuspublishing wrote:

> > " dr "

> > that's really interesting. I found several links to " Buxton

> > University " which open to Rocheville, and other bogus programs,

> > too. You can also find similar links bearing the name of several

> > other schools, a great deal more prestigeous that " Buxton " that

are

> > *not* official university links, but links to these fly by night

> > programs. You can find similar links which say, perhaps

not " Yale " ,

> > but perhaps the name of a university with a less active l-word

> > department, which *also* open to Rocheville, etc., but that does

> > *not* mean that Yale or any of these other universities are

actually

> > affiliated with Rocheville, or any other diploma mill. What it

means

> > is that diploma mills are using the names of real colleges to

lead

> > people to their diploma mill web sites. And I suspect that it

> > wasn't a mistake, " dr " , I suspect that you knew this. What you

have

> > just done could be viewed by many to be nearly as deceptive as

> > cutting and pasting someone's words and placing them out of

> > context. But I'm not going to assume that you, too, lower

yourself

> > to silly little deceptions like that.

> >

> > If I were a petty, unethical person, I could take the name of

> > your " universities " from which you obtained your " degrees " (which

> > you thusfar have refused to disclose, even after demanding such

> > information from *me*), find similar advertising links in Google,

> > and " pretend " that I honestly think that your universities are

also

> > affiliated with Rocheville or someother diploma mill. But I

would

> > never stoop to such tactics, " dr " . I could go search for your

> > information and do the same thing as you have done, but I would

> > never do that to someone else because it is deceptive, and

wrong.

> > It would be a pathetic attempt to mislead the other readers

> > regarding someone's else's credentials or education. I wouldn't

do

> > that to YOU, even though I *could*, because its a low, deceptive,

> > misleading and consumately unethical little trick. I would expect

> > better conduct from any TCM practitioner, let alone one who has

no

> > first name and goes by " dr "

> >

> > I'm reminded of the times when the great illusionist, Harry

Houdini,

> > became incensed at the cheap deceptive tricks that mediums used

to

> > try to mislead the public. As soon as he started exposing these

> > people and their cruel, unethical acts (preying on the emotions

of

> > griefstricken people by claiming to communicate with their dead

> > loved ones), the mediums started to panic, didn't know how to

> > respond with intelligence and logic, and thus tried to smear poor

> > Harry Houdini, just for trying to protect the public. They tried

to

> > mislead the public with very cheap, unethical tricks, which they

> > knew that most people would never investigate in order to

determine

> > the veracity of the acusations.

> >

> > Unfortunately for you, " dr " many listserv members are *very*

> > Internet savvy. When they see these links and realize what you

have

> > done, what will they think of you, Hmmm? When you wrote that

post in

> > a blind rage, did you think about what would happen when other

> > readers discovered your deception? I don't think so.

> >

> > This is an excellent object lesson for ALL listserv users. Don't

get

> > your emotions so stirred up that you lose all ability to act in a

> > logical and ethical fashion. Don't try to mislead other readers

> > regarding someone's credentials or statements just because you

lack

> > the oratory or literary skills to engage in intelligent

> > disagreement. Done in this fashion, it's just soooo wrong.

> >

> > Best Regards,

> >

> > Rachel Peterman

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , holmes

> > <dkaikobad@c...> wrote:

> > >

> > > hi rachel

> > >

> > > your website lists the following:

> > >

> > > quote:

> > >

> > > Rachel H. Peterman earned her B.S., M.S. degree in Health

> > Services

> > > Administration and Juris Doctor degree from the University of

> > Minnesota

> > > Law School.

> > >

> > > After over a decade of legal practice and university teaching

> > > experience, she earned her M.S. and Ph.D. degrees in Clinical

> > > Hypnotherapy through a distance learning degree program at

Buxton

> > > University.

> > >

> > > She is currently a student of Oriental Medicine & Acupuncture,

> > > incorporating eastern philosophy and meridian theory in her

> > clinical

> > > hypnotherapy practice.

> > >

> > > end quote:

> > >

> > > i see that you are still a student of TCM, and it is laudable

that

> > you

> > > have so much interest and dedication to it

> > >

> > > out of curiosity i looked up the link to Buxton University,

when

> > you

> > > click it it opens to Rochville University

> > >

> > > that link is: http://tinyurl.com/7skjy

> > >

> > > the blurb at this page says:

> > >

> > > quote:

> > > It's now possible to earn affordable

> > > Accredited Degrees!

> > >

> > > Affordable Degrees No Studies

> > > Affordable Degrees No Attendance

> > > Affordable Degrees No Waiting

> > >

> > > endquote:

> > >

> > > a link to another page takes one to actual degrees and costs

> > involved:

> > > http://tinyurl.com/b7szb

> > >

> > > it lists a: Doctorate Degree for $599.00

> > >

> > > this does not mean you have anything but the most prestigious

> > degree,

> > > far from it

> > >

> > > i simply followed links from your website and these led to

these

> > > interesting nooks and corners

> > >

> > > just as an aside, everyone else on this forum must have spent

> > years on

> > > end to study for and, at the cost of thousands of dollars,

> > graduate and

> > > go on to a licentiate ship or a doctorate

> > >

> > > they go through a grind on a daily basis out of dedication to

> > their

> > > chosen profession, and struggle for years on end to have a

viable

> > practice

> > >

> > > dr holmes

> > >

> > > holmes wrote:

> > > > and the other degrees your website lists:

> > > >

> > > > Rachel H. Peterman, PhD, CCHt

> > > > Specializing in Acupuncture Needle Anxiety

> > > >

> > > > again, just curious

> > > >

> > > > by the way are you a licensed ac or a national boards in ac?

> > > >

> > > > dr holmes

> > > > www.acu-free.com

> > > >

> > > > goldenlotuspublishing wrote:

> > > > > M.S.: Master of Science (Major: Health Services

> > Administration)

> > > > > J.D.: Juris Doctor: " Doctor of Law " (Major: Law)

> > > > >

> > > > > What does the credential " dr " stand for? Is it anything

> > like " Dr. " ?

> > > > > Just curious :-)

> > > > >

> > > > > Best Regards,

> > > > >

> > > > > Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D.

> > > > >

> > > > > Chinese Medicine ,

holmes

> > > > > <dkaikobad@c...> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D. wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > what do these credentials stand for?

> > > > > > just curious

> > > > > >

> > > > > > dr holmes

> > > > > > www.acu-free.com

> > > > > >

> > >

>

January 22, 2006

Doug states,

" There is one variable you forgot to mention and that is most of

our students are coming from other careers and carry families and jobs and

know exactly

what they want from a school. "

I found this to be true when I first started OM school (in CA) back in the

late 80's but things have really changed since then. The younger generation

has shown itself in my opinion to be somewhat naive to the profession and

ops.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " goldenlotuspublishing " <goldenlotuspublishing

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Digest Number 1259

>Sun, 22 Jan 2006 03:37:15 -0000

>

>Clinic's going incredibly well, thank you. I'm getting new patients

>faster than anyone else, because I already learned the fine art of

>practice building and self-promotion at the knee of some highly

>successful business professionals. My patients appreciate my

>enthusiasm, professionalism, and honesty. There's no need to " push

>buttons " with patients in most cases. Wouldn't dream of doing it.

>But most of my patients are a great deal more pragmatic and

>realistic than most of my collegues. Even my patients, with no

>health care background, see the writing on the wall for TCM, if

>things don't change. They are as worried about the future as anyone

>of us.

>

>I greatly admire artists, but there are realities affecting TCM that

>have nothing to do with art. You can continue to believe that TCM is

>some sort of holy art, with no business, professional, regulatory,

>legislative or cultural factors affecting it, sorry, but the world

>just doesn't work that way. If TCM were only an art, it would not

>be regulated as a licensed health care profession. It's as simple as

>that.

>

>And the jobs issue can't be denied. It's a problem. If you aren't

>an incredibly intelligent, self-motivated business person, you're

>probably going to fail. And that's too bad. The skills needed to

>practice medicine should be self-supporting, without all of the

>endless self promotion involved in eaking out a living as a

>tradesman, instead of as the member of a learned profession. It

>would be " nice " , I suppose, to practice in a world entirely

>unencumbered by WM, but that just isn't going to happen. We need to

>accept that, analyze the situation the way chiro's did, develop a

>strategy for survival within a world defined by WM, and preserve our

>right to practice independently. No one is going to be generous and

>hand it to us on a silver platter. We will have to fight for it.

>

>I recognize that you don't like it when people's " buttons are

>pushed " , but consider the famous words of Frederic Douglas:

>

> " Agitate, Agitate, Agitate "

>

>not

>

> " Be all passive and new-age, and good things will come to you with

>no effort on your part "

>

>just something to think about, gang....

>

>Chinese Medicine , " "

><res19zl9@v...> wrote:

> >

> > I wrote this morning and am now reluctant to get in the fray but

>here goes....

> >

> > Wow, Rachel! You really know how to push the buttons don't you!

>Are you in the clinic yet?

> > Treating patients? How's it going? Just curious.

> >

> > For the record... I am/was an artist who finds that training the

>biggest asset to

> > acupuncture practice. I also work in two schools (yes, I hear you,

>it's weird at times) but I

> > can say greed is not running the schools I am at. I can't speak

>for the ones you've chosen.

> > My colleagues are some of the best trained in the world and I'd

>say the biggest

> > impediment to students learning is their own conceptions of what

>the acupuncture/

> > Really Is. For some it's artsy, for some it has

>the same western paradigm

> > but grown in China.

> >

> > There is one variable you forgot to mention and that is most of

>our students are coming

> > from other careers and carry families and jobs and know exactly

>what they want from a

> > school. They've done a number of other things and have enrolled

>because of a love and/or

> > curiosity of the medicine and really want to be there. And yes,

>they get angry when their

> > expectations don't get met. This anger is a huge issue at the

>schools in my experience. It's

> > the angry student (yes, customer) storming into the Dean's office

>demanding something

> > they want. It has gotten very good teachers classes taken away

>from them and future

> > teachers " dumbing " down their classes. And it is only the

>financially secure school that can

> > resist.

> >

> > The one thing we don't have is careers at the end. I've seen that

>graduates practicing the

> > most limited forms of CM are the ones most closely associated with

>Western Medical

> > facilities. And I'm not sure that that gap will ever be bridged

>soon. And I've talked to a lot

> > of Chinese Medical doctors from China who say they've

>only " discovered " or had to

> > practice CM once they came to America and have to contend with

>patients without their

> > biomedical tether.

> >

> > There's more but that's all for now.

> > doug

> >

>

January 22, 2006

You've asked many questions about my " credentials " , and I've

answered, but you've failed to answer a *single* inquiry as to your

*own*. When you made my credentials an issue for the listserv, you

also placed your own in a position to be reviewed by the group.

Rachel Peterman

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " goldenlotuspublishing "

<goldenlotuspublishing> wrote:

>

> As a student of acupuncture, I am allowed by statute to practice.

> It's a statutory right, not a credential. Statutes are state laws

> that govern TCM, as well as a host of other professions.

>

> Rachel

> Chinese Medicine , holmes

> <dkaikobad@c...> wrote:

> >

> > obliged for the elucidation

> >

> > for the edification of the forum, which one of your credentials

> allow

> > you to practice acupuncture?

> >

> > dr holmes