Re Digest Number 1253 Message: 15, etc

[Guest guest]

Dear Z'ev, Mike, et al;

 

Thank you so much for your thoughtful replies. I agree that the current state

of anatomy training in many schools, medical, chiropractic, and otherwise, is

terrible, however, I received better instruction in a gross human anatomy course

at a state university (taught in the medical school, but in fulfillment of a

B.S. health science degree program requirement) than is taught in any MSOM

program in the U.S. today. Period. Prior to that, I also received superior

anatomy and physiology instruction at the local community college (in their 2

year nursing program) than is offered at most TCM colleges today. Studying

gross human anatomy is ALWAYS better than studying anatomy from a junior-college

level textbook alone. I have no idea what causes TCM school administrators to

think that an M.D. degree, absent any additional training and experience,

qualifies an individual to teach human anatomy. Believe it or not, there are

people who earn B.S., M.S., and even Ph.D. degrees in human

anatomy in this country. They are the best qualified, in most cases, to teach

human anatomy. Pathologists are o.k. too, but they generally turn up their

noses at the opportunity to teach at a trade school....

 

I also agree that TCM needs to be taught in greater depth, not dumbed down,

and made a priority in TCM programs. I didn't address that in my previous post

because I am working on the assumption that a doctoral program will do this, in

addition to teaching some biomedicine. If a doctoral program doesn't emphasize

TCM in greater depth, then there's no point to pursuing a doctoral degree in

this field. However, that will still be no substitute for setting minimal

admission and academic standards on the M.S. degree level.

 

I am currently attending school with people who are extremely proud of the

fact that they have taken no science courses, and are taking TCM courses out of

sequence, without benefit of human anatomy, physiology, or even basic medical

terminology! You may well imagine how irritating it is for those of us who have

bothered to study basic sciences, when the classes are dumbed down in order to

accomodate these dolts. At my TCM school, some students are allowed to

continually retake the same failed examination, time after time, until they pass

each course.

 

I've never attended a " real " college or university that allowed such

irregularities (this " remedial " program also appears to be an option/privilege

allocated rather selectively, along racial/nationality lines; however, that's a

topic for another discussion). What kind of practitioner will this produce?

Would you trust the health and safety of your children with these individuals?

Would you send your loved ones to a surgeon who couldn't pass a single medical

course, on the first several tries? I didn't think so...

 

Z'ev, I've not only done my research, I've taught graduate-level Health

Services Administration courses, yes, at a regionally accredited university, for

ten years prior to studying TCM. I had to work with members of the regional

accreditation team, and I understand what they require. It's not rocket

science, and it won't cause U.S. TCM programs to dissolve in a puff of smoke.

Any reasonably intelligent academic professional could deal with regional

accreditation issues. It's not that expensive, and it's not that hard. It

does, however, require colleges and universities to maintain basic admissions

and academic standards. And THAT is absolutely essential to preserving TCM as

an independent profession in the United States.

 

If you doubt this, consider some more real life examples: My fellow students

actually confront me for wearing a lab coat to treat patients in clinic; the

faculty doesn't " require " them to wear lab jackets (PPEs), so they feel that it

is " wrong " for me to do so. Apparently, new-age, shamanistic woo-woo hippy

students believe that it is fundamentally *wrong* to wear a lab coat (in

reality, our faculty all wore lab coats when practicing in China; the

administration just doesn't want to cope with keeping them clean and pressed,

but my fellow students have taken this omission to mean that there is something

fundamentally wrong with wearing lab coats in clinic). See what happens when

the administration sets a poor example? " Monkey see, monkey do " . When I

patiently try to explain basic concepts like BBPs, PPEs, and infection control,

my fellow students generally act stupefied and overwhelmed with these novel,

foreign concepts. However, these same individuals also feel that

studying western science is *wrong*, they can heal with their innocent hearts

and minds alone. I don't mean to belittle caring and compassion. It's

extremely important. But it's not enough to support an independent health care

profession.

 

Another horror story: One of my peers actually dropped a needle during the

CNT exam, and calmly picked it up off of the floor and placed it on the clean

field, ostensibly to be used! The examiner had the most incredulous look on

her face! Oh, if I'd only had a camera! (To be fair, the guy who taught CNT at

our school spoke extremely unclear English, so the students who, like our

president, don't bother to read books, didn't do so well when it came to the

exam.) This kind of thing happens on a daily basis...no one has ever troubled

their pretty little heads with concepts clearly understood by practical nursing

students (in an eight-month, trade school nursing program).... and then my

classmates wring their hands and ask why no medical professionals " respect "

oriental medicine!

 

Ultimately, it's not their fault. Most of them should never have been

admitted to a master’s level degree program in the first place. They never

should have been allowed to " dodge " basic degree and science prerequisites with

the promise that " I'll take those later... " (The administration allows this, for

fear that these students will “go elsewhere” if forced to complete courses in

some sort of logical sequence). Students should learn about concepts like

microbiology, infection control, OSHA, etc. etc. etc. It's not to be mean, or

turn them into allopathic practitioners. It's to give them a framework for

professional development within what is steadily becoming a highly regulated

health care profession. It's also necessary for our professional survival.

 

By the way, would it really kill off all of the TCM programs in the U.S. if

you required students to have, oh, say, a bachelor's degree, with at least two

years of basic sciences BEFORE they enrolled? No regionally accredited M.S.

program of ANY type will allow students to enroll prior to earning a B.S. degree

in a same or closely related field (unless it’s some special accelerated,

blended BS/MS degree program for brainiacs). I'm currently attending school

with junior college drop outs, failed actors, convicted felons and bi-polar cat

ladies, to name just a few. After attending a top-twenty law school and

excellent graduate school, both with rigorous admission standards, I find these

individuals to be annoying, at best, but usually embarassing, and occasionally,

frightening. Unfortunately, the school specially caters to the intellectually

and academically challenged. These special individuals are allowed to take one

course at a time for years, if

necessary. Some of them will eventually graduate, unless the college goes

broke and closes.

 

When some of my fellow students informed me that I was an elitist " b**** " for

suggesting that TCM schools should have reasonably professional admission and

academic standards, I calmly explained that students who want to matriculate in

M.S. programs at " real " colleges have to have relevant B.S. degrees, have to

pass a graduate school entrance exam, have to have at least five years of

professional health care work experience, and have to have GPA's of 3.0 or

higher, they were astounded, since most have never attended anything other than

a junior college or massage school, which had no entrance requirements other

than the $25 dollar application fee.

 

Z'ev knows that " real " colleges don't set these requirements in order to be

mean, nasty, or elitist, and I hope the rest of you understand this, as well;

it's done to ensure that the students will meet minimum academic standards, will

have the aptitude, character, and fitness for engaging in a licensed health

profession, and will not compel the faculty to " dumb down " the curriculum to a

point where the average seventh grade student could pass with flying colors.

 

I'm sure a number of TCM school administrators (and a number of you reading

this) think that they are doing no harm in allowing low quality students to

matriculate and even graduate. However, these numbskull students don't live in

a vacuum; they slow down and disrupt classes, go out and chat up every

physician, nurse and member of the public they can find, they seek out

television and news reporters in order to “grant interviews”; can you imagine

what people think of OM as a " profession " after interacting with these seemingly

retarded " master's degree candidates " ? And then we wonder why we can't get

Medicare recognition, hospital practice privileges, etc.!

 

These are just a few of the reasons that I strongly support regional

accreditation and entry-level O.M.D. programs. As long as TCM schools continue

operating with minimal standards, our future as an independent, unsupervised

medical profession will remain seriously in doubt. Once again, I urge you all

to become aware of what medical and chiropractic lobbyists are currently trying

to do on the state and federal level. If we don't become as informed and active

as those professions, they will eventually marginalize and, if they have their

way, eliminate, or “supervise” us. Then all of you so interested in " income

potential " will start earning a salary like that of a practical nurse, or other

supervised health care worker. And we will have only our own passivity,

ignorance, and sloth to blame. When it happens, I promise to try really, really

hard to refrain from saying " I told you so " ....

 

 

Best Regards,

 

Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D.

(yup, I earned my degrees at " real " , regionally accredited universities, and it

didn’t even hurt that much J)

 

 

 

 

 

chazak, chazak v'titchazek: Stay strong, and may you be strengthened.

 

 

Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover

Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it!

 

 

[Guest guest]

Rachel you state,

 

" No regionally accredited M.S. program of ANY type will allow students to

enroll prior to earning a B.S. degree in a same or closely related field " .

 

I think that this is true for the stacked professions where one can earn a

bachelor, then a master and finally a PhD. This requirement is not accurate

for clinical healthcare programs. like chiropractic or allopathic medicine,

many of which are regionally accreditted.

 

Students in these programs can enter with three years undergrad. They do

have a req for certain science courses for admission. Then there are the

tough medically oriented classes (gross, physio, biochem. histo, embryo). I

am currently in chiropractic college for many of the reasons that you have

brought up previously and have found that my PhD's instruction in the above

classes to be very thorough.

 

I still do not understand how a student can earn a Doctorate or a Master's

degree w/o first having a bachelor's. By the way, I think that most

students in chiro college are aware that some states require a bachelor's

degree for licensure. There is a state or two that also requires that for

OM (not sure which ones).

 

Keep up the discussion as this is important for all of us to know. I am

saddened but not surprised by the story you have shared with us about your

program. I can also only imagine what the frustration level must be like

when you want things to be legit and others do not care.

 

Later

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

[Guest guest]

wow, thank G-d i graduated 10 years ago... probably wouldn't have made

the cut otherwise... with a bachelor's in music and no

California-approved education it's a wonder i haven't killed anyone

yet....

 

robert hayden

 

 

Chinese Medicine , golden lotus

publishing <goldenlotuspublishing> wrote:

>

> By the way, would it really kill off all of the TCM programs in

the U.S. if you required students to have, oh, say, a bachelor's

degree, with at least two years of basic sciences BEFORE they

enrolled? No regionally accredited M.S. program of ANY type will

allow students to enroll prior to earning a B.S. degree in a same or

closely related field (unless it's some special accelerated, blended

BS/MS degree program for brainiacs).

[Guest guest]

I'm on the fence with this issue.

 

On the one hand, some of the best practitioners I have ever met were not

the best educated or had the most book smarts, but had a touch, wisdom

and compassion that was very healing. The TCM was just a delivery

vehicle for their healing energy. The very best practitioners have both

of course. But given a choice, I'd rather see someone who had wisdom,

compassion and " TCM Qi " , than someone who got straight A's and had a PhD

without these other qualities.

 

On the other hand I too have witnessed students (both while in school

and now while teaching at a TCM school) who had no business in a masters

level program. I can only take comfort that these students who just

squeak through the system without any real grasp of the medicine will

not succeed in practice. The only real down side is that they can make

the medicine look bad while they go down. To be honest, the

Chiropractors with 100 hours of training are already doing a fairly good

job of that.

 

This medicine is a life long process of learning. Those who are not

eager learners, or who look for the best way to cut corners just to get

the degree will likely not be successful practitioners and the market

will weed them out.

 

If you think TCM schools can be problematic with these issues, you

should see hypnotherapy schools!

 

Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht.

Oasis Acupuncture

<http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com

8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte

Suite D-35

Scottsdale, AZ 85258

Phone: (480) 991-3650

Fax: (480) 247-4472

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

golden lotus publishing

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 1:35 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re Digest Number 1253 Message: 15, etc

 

 

Dear Z'ev, Mike, et al;

 

Thank you so much for your thoughtful replies. I agree that the

current state of anatomy training in many schools, medical,

chiropractic, and otherwise, is terrible, however, I received better

instruction in a gross human anatomy course at a state university

(taught in the medical school, but in fulfillment of a B.S. health

science degree program requirement) than is taught in any MSOM program

in the U.S. today. Period. Prior to that, I also received superior

anatomy and physiology instruction at the local community college (in

their 2 year nursing program) than is offered at most TCM colleges

today. Studying gross human anatomy is ALWAYS better than studying

anatomy from a junior-college level textbook alone. I have no idea what

causes TCM school administrators to think that an M.D. degree, absent

any additional training and experience, qualifies an individual to teach

human anatomy. Believe it or not, there are people who earn B.S., M.S.,

and even Ph.D. degrees in human

anatomy in this country. They are the best qualified, in most cases, to

teach human anatomy. Pathologists are o.k. too, but they generally turn

up their noses at the opportunity to teach at a trade school....

 

I also agree that TCM needs to be taught in greater depth, not dumbed

down, and made a priority in TCM programs. I didn't address that in my

previous post because I am working on the assumption that a doctoral

program will do this, in addition to teaching some biomedicine. If a

doctoral program doesn't emphasize TCM in greater depth, then there's no

point to pursuing a doctoral degree in this field. However, that will

still be no substitute for setting minimal admission and academic

standards on the M.S. degree level.

 

I am currently attending school with people who are extremely proud of

the fact that they have taken no science courses, and are taking TCM

courses out of sequence, without benefit of human anatomy, physiology,

or even basic medical terminology! You may well imagine how irritating

it is for those of us who have bothered to study basic sciences, when

the classes are dumbed down in order to accomodate these dolts. At my

TCM school, some students are allowed to continually retake the same

failed examination, time after time, until they pass each course.

 

I've never attended a " real " college or university that allowed such

irregularities (this " remedial " program also appears to be an

option/privilege allocated rather selectively, along racial/nationality

lines; however, that's a topic for another discussion). What kind of

practitioner will this produce? Would you trust the health and safety

of your children with these individuals? Would you send your loved ones

to a surgeon who couldn't pass a single medical course, on the first

several tries? I didn't think so...

 

Z'ev, I've not only done my research, I've taught graduate-level

Health Services Administration courses, yes, at a regionally accredited

university, for ten years prior to studying TCM. I had to work with

members of the regional accreditation team, and I understand what they

require. It's not rocket science, and it won't cause U.S. TCM programs

to dissolve in a puff of smoke. Any reasonably intelligent academic

professional could deal with regional accreditation issues. It's not

that expensive, and it's not that hard. It does, however, require

colleges and universities to maintain basic admissions and academic

standards. And THAT is absolutely essential to preserving TCM as an

independent profession in the United States.

 

If you doubt this, consider some more real life examples: My fellow

students actually confront me for wearing a lab coat to treat patients

in clinic; the faculty doesn't " require " them to wear lab jackets

(PPEs), so they feel that it is " wrong " for me to do so. Apparently,

new-age, shamanistic woo-woo hippy students believe that it is

fundamentally *wrong* to wear a lab coat (in reality, our faculty all

wore lab coats when practicing in China; the administration just doesn't

want to cope with keeping them clean and pressed, but my fellow students

have taken this omission to mean that there is something fundamentally

wrong with wearing lab coats in clinic). See what happens when the

administration sets a poor example? " Monkey see, monkey do " . When I

patiently try to explain basic concepts like BBPs, PPEs, and infection

control, my fellow students generally act stupefied and overwhelmed with

these novel, foreign concepts. However, these same individuals also

feel that

studying western science is *wrong*, they can heal with their innocent

hearts and minds alone. I don't mean to belittle caring and compassion.

It's extremely important. But it's not enough to support an independent

health care profession.

 

Another horror story: One of my peers actually dropped a needle

during the CNT exam, and calmly picked it up off of the floor and placed

it on the clean field, ostensibly to be used! The examiner had the

most incredulous look on her face! Oh, if I'd only had a camera! (To be

fair, the guy who taught CNT at our school spoke extremely unclear

English, so the students who, like our president, don't bother to read

books, didn't do so well when it came to the exam.) This kind of thing

happens on a daily basis...no one has ever troubled their pretty little

heads with concepts clearly understood by practical nursing students (in

an eight-month, trade school nursing program).... and then my classmates

wring their hands and ask why no medical professionals " respect "

oriental medicine!

 

Ultimately, it's not their fault. Most of them should never have been

admitted to a master's level degree program in the first place. They

never should have been allowed to " dodge " basic degree and science

prerequisites with the promise that " I'll take those later... " (The

administration allows this, for fear that these students will " go

elsewhere " if forced to complete courses in some sort of logical

sequence). Students should learn about concepts like microbiology,

infection control, OSHA, etc. etc. etc. It's not to be mean, or turn

them into allopathic practitioners. It's to give them a framework for

professional development within what is steadily becoming a highly

regulated health care profession. It's also necessary for our

professional survival.

 

By the way, would it really kill off all of the TCM programs in the

U.S. if you required students to have, oh, say, a bachelor's degree,

with at least two years of basic sciences BEFORE they enrolled? No

regionally accredited M.S. program of ANY type will allow students to

enroll prior to earning a B.S. degree in a same or closely related field

(unless it's some special accelerated, blended BS/MS degree program for

brainiacs). I'm currently attending school with junior college drop

outs, failed actors, convicted felons and bi-polar cat ladies, to name

just a few. After attending a top-twenty law school and excellent

graduate school, both with rigorous admission standards, I find these

individuals to be annoying, at best, but usually embarassing, and

occasionally, frightening. Unfortunately, the school specially caters

to the intellectually and academically challenged. These special

individuals are allowed to take one course at a time for years, if

necessary. Some of them will eventually graduate, unless the college

goes broke and closes.

 

When some of my fellow students informed me that I was an elitist

" b**** " for suggesting that TCM schools should have reasonably

professional admission and academic standards, I calmly explained that

students who want to matriculate in M.S. programs at " real " colleges

have to have relevant B.S. degrees, have to pass a graduate school

entrance exam, have to have at least five years of professional health

care work experience, and have to have GPA's of 3.0 or higher, they were

astounded, since most have never attended anything other than a junior

college or massage school, which had no entrance requirements other than

the $25 dollar application fee.

 

Z'ev knows that " real " colleges don't set these requirements in order

to be mean, nasty, or elitist, and I hope the rest of you understand

this, as well; it's done to ensure that the students will meet minimum

academic standards, will have the aptitude, character, and fitness for

engaging in a licensed health profession, and will not compel the

faculty to " dumb down " the curriculum to a point where the average

seventh grade student could pass with flying colors.

 

I'm sure a number of TCM school administrators (and a number of you

reading this) think that they are doing no harm in allowing low quality

students to matriculate and even graduate. However, these numbskull

students don't live in a vacuum; they slow down and disrupt classes, go

out and chat up every physician, nurse and member of the public they can

find, they seek out television and news reporters in order to " grant

interviews " ; can you imagine what people think of OM as a " profession "

after interacting with these seemingly retarded " master's degree

candidates " ? And then we wonder why we can't get Medicare recognition,

hospital practice privileges, etc.!

 

These are just a few of the reasons that I strongly support regional

accreditation and entry-level O.M.D. programs. As long as TCM schools

continue operating with minimal standards, our future as an independent,

unsupervised medical profession will remain seriously in doubt. Once

again, I urge you all to become aware of what medical and chiropractic

lobbyists are currently trying to do on the state and federal level. If

we don't become as informed and active as those professions, they will

eventually marginalize and, if they have their way, eliminate, or

" supervise " us. Then all of you so interested in " income potential "

will start earning a salary like that of a practical nurse, or other

supervised health care worker. And we will have only our own passivity,

ignorance, and sloth to blame. When it happens, I promise to try

really, really hard to refrain from saying " I told you so " ....

 

 

Best Regards,

 

Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D.

(yup, I earned my degrees at " real " , regionally accredited universities,

and it didn't even hurt that much J)

 

 

 

 

 

chazak, chazak v'titchazek: Stay strong, and may you be strengthened.

 

 

Photos - Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover

Photo Books. You design it and we'll bind it!

 

 

[Guest guest]

kampo36 wrote:

> wow, thank G-d i graduated 10 years ago... probably wouldn't have made

> the cut otherwise... with a bachelor's in music and no

> California-approved education it's a wonder i haven't killed anyone

> yet....

>

> robert hayden

 

Hi Robert!

 

Music is very therapeutic. I play a relaxation CD in my treatment room.

 

http://tinyurl.com/dgko2

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , petetheisen

<petetheisen@v...>

wrote:

> Hi Robert!

>

> Music is very therapeutic. I play a relaxation CD in my treatment room.

>

 

Well, it's good to know i may yet be able to play a therapeutic role after my

colleagues

involved in the Great Biomedical Takeover have me investigated and stripped of

my license

for my pernicious artistic tendencies.

 

All kidding aside, a couple of comments:

In seven years of teaching TCM in ACAOM-approved and AOBTA-approved programs, i

have seen an increasing number of students coming from previous medical training

(MD,

DC, RN, PA, PT, etc etc). In my experience, prior medical training makes one no

more

likely to comprehend TCM than the lack of medical training... in fact, i have

observed that

it often makes one LESS able to comprehend TCM (which i find curious, as the

case has

been made that TCM is itself a biomedicalized variant of East Asian Medicine,

see for

example Ogawa, NAJOM March 1996, or Birch, NAJOM March 1999 -- Birch IIRC

referred

to TCM as a " poor cousin " of EAM).

 

Of course, if standards of entry are low, level of practice will be low as well

-- garbage in,

garbage out. But if you require biomedical training prior to entry into OM/EAM

programs,

you will get... biomedicine, albeit with " natural " substances. Be careful what

you wish for.

 

Mike, while i appreciate your tireless advocacy for universal adoption of

California

standards, i think your solution is overly simplistic. As i have said before, i

could write the

greatest curriculum in the world, require everyone to read and write Chinese,

require

hospital internship, put together a dream team of faculty, etc. Problem is

where is the

money going to come from... how long do you want the program to be, how much do

you

want it to cost, how much debt are students going to take on. Then where are

the

students going to go to practice? Raising educational standards is a fine idea,

but there is

very little infrastructure for the graduating students to enter practice which

will support

them through their massive loan payments (and malpractice insurance premiums,

since

we're looking to emulate MDs). Sort of reminds me of Cuba, which has one of the

finest

systems of medical education in the hemisphere, and graduates doctors by the

thousands... many of whom end up driving cabs and waiting tables in tourist

hotels (or

coming here to South Florida) because they are unable to make more than

subsistence

wages practicing medicine.

 

Robert Hayden, L.Ac., A.P., M.S.O.M., Dipl. Ac. & C.H. (NCCAOM), B.Mus. (Failed

Musician)

 

....who, ironically enough, spent most of yesterday afternoon at the school

library looking

at anatomy texts and reading Greenman's Principles of Manual Medicine...

[Guest guest]

Hey Robert,

 

I enjoyed our discussion. Let me clarify what I think.

 

>Mike, while i appreciate your tireless advocacy for universal adoption of

>California

>standards, i think your solution is overly simplistic.

 

Robert, maybe but we all have to start somewhere. Like you, I have spent

some time involved with schools that are outside of CA (my education was in

San Diego). I have seen that the quality of non-CA programs and their

classes was very poor. These classes are usually no more in hours than the

CA approved programs but the amount of material and the depth is lacking.

This goes back to another recent thread that touched on " dumbing down " our

OM education. I can tell that my chiro program does not do that but I have

been told, by a student, that a common instructor to both programs has

stated to a OM class that she makes things easier for them. This OM school

recently got its re-accreditation for four years. Sad, truly sad.

 

As i have said before, i could write the

>greatest curriculum in the world, require everyone to read and write

>Chinese, require

>hospital internship, put together a dream team of faculty, etc.

 

Why don't we start with one thing at a time. I and others out there would

love to contribute to such a project and would like to make it available to

all schools " free-of-charge " . The education starts with the curriculum. It

will take educated practitioners, like yourself, who can start to make a

difference. This can have a ripple effect and other schools might also take

notice to be competitive.

 

Problem is where is the

>money going to come from...

 

Where does the money come from now? The truth is that quality of program is

lacking, not necessarily the numbers of hours.

 

how long do you want the program to be, how much do you

>want it to cost, how much debt are students going to take on.

 

Much of this will be determined by future post-grad ops. Chiropractic is

the same way and during the last six years enrollments are down 34%

nationally. It was reported that this is due to educational costs but also

high start up costs (again few employment ops for this group). We are

seeing some trends with hospital affiliations for LAc.

 

Then where are the

>students going to go to practice?

This is the million dollar question. Maybe we already have too many LAc's.

I tend to think not but our options are limited. We need to fight for

greater accessibility of healthcare coverage for eveyone (single payer

universal healthcare system). Our services should also be covered by this.

Currently, much of the healthcare dollars is spent on admin for

insurance/HMO.

 

Raising educational standards is a fine idea, but there is

>very little infrastructure for the graduating students to enter practice

 

Absolutely right, which is what I have stated above. We need to create more

ops.

 

which will support

>them through their massive loan payments (and malpractice insurance

>premiums, since

>we're looking to emulate MDs).

 

Not sure who wants to emulate MD's but the face of healthcare in America is

going to radically change and we need to demand inclusion. A recent report

published that malpractice insurance companies have been falsely reporting

massive losses in order to up the premium rates. Then they claim we need to

cap claims. Lies on top of lies. We need to get more involved and demand

truth.

 

By the way, our foreign counterparts see no problem with becoming

mainstream, they have this status already in China.

 

Sort of reminds me of Cuba, which has one of the finest

>systems of medical education in the hemisphere, and graduates doctors by

>the

>thousands... many of whom end up driving cabs and waiting tables in tourist

>hotels (or

>coming here to South Florida) because they are unable to make more than

>subsistence

>wages practicing medicine.

 

Robert, I would hate to see this end on a sour note but feel that the day

has come for us to be a major player in healthcare. Gone are the days of

the dirty clinics with poor conditions. The same issue is a part of the

lesser education we have spoken about previously. We need to believe in

ourselves and also seize the opportunity to do so. I would much rather go

to a clean clinic that takes all the precautions then one that does not.

The same can be said for the practitioner.

>

>Robert Hayden, L.Ac., A.P., M.S.O.M., Dipl. Ac. & C.H. (NCCAOM), B.Mus.

>(Failed Musician)

>

>...who, ironically enough, spent most of yesterday afternoon at the school

>library looking

>at anatomy texts and reading Greenman's Principles of Manual Medicine...

>

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

.... who has been spending lots of hours learning about CNS nerves and how

they work. This is also making more sense as to how scalp acu works.

[Guest guest]

I hate to disappoint anyone, but I don't wear a lab coat. While I

understand and support your call for increased rigor in CM education

(at least with CM courses), when I graduated school I gave up wearing

the lab coat as soon as possible. I think it gives the wrong idea to

our patients that we are somehow technicians of science. I know for

my patients, they prefer regular clothing, and a more homey

environment, they tend to be a bit scared of hospital-like settings.

I think some kind of dress code is appropriate for school clinics,

but I am not sure if a white lab coat is the appropriate one.

 

 

On Jan 18, 2006, at 12:35 PM, golden lotus publishing wrote:

 

> If you doubt this, consider some more real life examples: My

> fellow students actually confront me for wearing a lab coat to

> treat patients in clinic; the faculty doesn't " require " them to

> wear lab jackets (PPEs), so they feel that it is " wrong " for me to

> do so. Apparently, new-age, shamanistic woo-woo hippy students

> believe that it is fundamentally *wrong* to wear a lab coat (in

> reality, our faculty all wore lab coats when practicing in China;

> the administration just doesn't want to cope with keeping them

> clean and pressed, but my fellow students have taken this omission

> to mean that there is something fundamentally wrong with wearing

> lab coats in clinic). See what happens when the administration

> sets a poor example? " Monkey see, monkey do " . When I patiently

> try to explain basic concepts like BBPs, PPEs, and infection

> control, my fellow students generally act stupefied and overwhelmed

> with these novel, foreign concepts. However, these same

> individuals also feel that

> studying western science is *wrong*, they can heal with their

> innocent hearts and minds alone. I don't mean to belittle caring

> and compassion. It's extremely important. But it's not enough to

> support an independent health care profession.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have to agree with Robert. I am concerned that the biomedical

component of future CM training shouldn't overshadow the essential

aspects of the subject. I agree that a more syncretic mentality is

more suitable for the study of Chinese medicine, one that more

artistic individuals are able to express. Chinese medicine is as

much art as science, lest we forget.

 

We've got a lot of growing and work to do, but we don't have to copy

biomedical institutions every step of the way.

 

 

On Jan 19, 2006, at 7:24 AM, kampo36 wrote:

 

> All kidding aside, a couple of comments:

> In seven years of teaching TCM in ACAOM-approved and AOBTA-approved

> programs, i

> have seen an increasing number of students coming from previous

> medical training (MD,

> DC, RN, PA, PT, etc etc). In my experience, prior medical training

> makes one no more

> likely to comprehend TCM than the lack of medical training... in

> fact, i have observed that

> it often makes one LESS able to comprehend TCM (which i find

> curious, as the case has

> been made that TCM is itself a biomedicalized variant of East Asian

> Medicine, see for

> example Ogawa, NAJOM March 1996, or Birch, NAJOM March 1999 --

> Birch IIRC referred

> to TCM as a " poor cousin " of EAM).

>

> Of course, if standards of entry are low, level of practice will be

> low as well -- garbage in,

> garbage out. But if you require biomedical training prior to entry

> into OM/EAM programs,

> you will get... biomedicine, albeit with " natural " substances. Be

> careful what you wish for.

>

> Mike, while i appreciate your tireless advocacy for universal

> adoption of California

> standards, i think your solution is overly simplistic. As i have

> said before, i could write the

> greatest curriculum in the world, require everyone to read and

> write Chinese, require

> hospital internship, put together a dream team of faculty, etc.

> Problem is where is the

> money going to come from... how long do you want the program to be,

> how much do you

> want it to cost, how much debt are students going to take on. Then

> where are the

> students going to go to practice? Raising educational standards is

> a fine idea, but there is

> very little infrastructure for the graduating students to enter

> practice which will support

> them through their massive loan payments (and malpractice insurance

> premiums, since

> we're looking to emulate MDs). Sort of reminds me of Cuba, which

> has one of the finest

> systems of medical education in the hemisphere, and graduates

> doctors by the

> thousands... many of whom end up driving cabs and waiting tables in

> tourist hotels (or

> coming here to South Florida) because they are unable to make more

> than subsistence

> wages practicing medicine.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

mike Bowser wrote:

<snip>

> on " dumbing down " our OM education. I can tell that my chiro program

> does not do that but I have been told, by a student, that a common

> instructor to both programs has stated to a OM class that she makes

> things easier for them.

 

Hi Mike!

 

Sometimes making things easy involves clarity and organization rather

than abbreviation.

 

I think we need a lot more clarity and organization, a lot more.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> I hate to disappoint anyone, but I don't wear a lab coat.

 

Hi Z'ev!

 

Ha! This could be a whole new topic!

 

I wear a lab coat when it is cold in my office. When I was an intern it

was required from the first semester that we always wear them in clinic

whether we were treating or not.

 

I used to wear a tie then as well, hardly ever do now. At 61 this could

be an age thing, gulp.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

The truth is though, a person cannot come into a 4-yr Master's program in TCM

(particularly if they come in with no science or medical background) and

expect to graduate 4 years later as a master of both Chinese and Western

medicine.

It's not possible, no matter how smart and curious one is, because both

types of medicine need a strong experiential component to succeed. Experience

takes time and experiential programs take more money, too. So, unfortunately

this 'pile-it-on' approach can become a kind of sham education, and risks

graduating students who are dilettantes, dabblers, masters of nothing. Sitting

through hours and hours of tedious, boring, uninspired, mind-numbing lectures

on both western and eastern medical minutiae doesn't provide a good education,

in my opinion.

 

Unfortunately the TCM schools don't have the benefit of what topnotch

universities have - endowment funds and state support for educational costs.

Without this financial support I fear we risk overreaching and depletion of what

is

our most valuable resource at this point in time - the people. I think both

teachers and students are suffering because of over-inflated, unrealistic

ambitions (whose ambitions these are is another discussion). I think we would

be

better served by a more-focused, deeper, and more participatory investigation

of what it is we really want to learn.

 

And isn't it more important in the 21st century to teach students how to

access information, how to interpret, how to find meaning and how to think

through

difficult problems than it is to require reams of memorization?

 

---RoseAnne S., PCOM-NY graduate

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Pete,

That is part of the process as is learning to use various media in the

presentation, etc. A lot can be accomplished online. Medical and

chiropractic schools are taking advantage of this technology and it can be

quite useful for learning.

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

 

 

 

>petetheisen <petetheisen

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Re Digest Number 1253 Message: 15, etc

>Fri, 20 Jan 2006 02:56:16 -0500

>

>mike Bowser wrote:

><snip>

> > on " dumbing down " our OM education. I can tell that my chiro program

> > does not do that but I have been told, by a student, that a common

> > instructor to both programs has stated to a OM class that she makes

> > things easier for them.

>

>Hi Mike!

>

>Sometimes making things easy involves clarity and organization rather

>than abbreviation.

>

>I think we need a lot more clarity and organization, a lot more.

>

>Regards,

>

>Pete

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Zev et al,

I share your concerns over a dominant biomedical view. Let's not forget

that we are no where near the number of hours and subjects that our Asian

counterparts are at and yet I read a great deal of admiration for them and

their knowledge. This knowledge base contains both CM and WM at a level

that we seem to want to take things to be educated professionals.

 

I get concerned when I hear people wanting stronger CM but neglect the WM

(actually, bio science) that allows us to be part of the healthcare in this

country. Gone are the days where the profession was alone in isolation and

programs could do more of what they wanted. We need to demand more of both

or we will be put out of business, except for the spa type of feel good

techniques.

 

Knowledge is knowledge and we should not be afraid of it. Being a well

rounded and knowledgable pracitioner is what will make us an asset to

healthcare.

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

 

 

 

> " " <zrosenbe

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Re Digest Number 1253 Message: 15, etc

>Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:16:41 -0800

>

>I have to agree with Robert. I am concerned that the biomedical

>component of future CM training shouldn't overshadow the essential

>aspects of the subject. I agree that a more syncretic mentality is

>more suitable for the study of Chinese medicine, one that more

>artistic individuals are able to express. Chinese medicine is as

>much art as science, lest we forget.

>

>We've got a lot of growing and work to do, but we don't have to copy

>biomedical institutions every step of the way.

>

>

>On Jan 19, 2006, at 7:24 AM, kampo36 wrote:

>

> > All kidding aside, a couple of comments:

> > In seven years of teaching TCM in ACAOM-approved and AOBTA-approved

> > programs, i

> > have seen an increasing number of students coming from previous

> > medical training (MD,

> > DC, RN, PA, PT, etc etc). In my experience, prior medical training

> > makes one no more

> > likely to comprehend TCM than the lack of medical training... in

> > fact, i have observed that

> > it often makes one LESS able to comprehend TCM (which i find

> > curious, as the case has

> > been made that TCM is itself a biomedicalized variant of East Asian

> > Medicine, see for

> > example Ogawa, NAJOM March 1996, or Birch, NAJOM March 1999 --

> > Birch IIRC referred

> > to TCM as a " poor cousin " of EAM).

> >

> > Of course, if standards of entry are low, level of practice will be

> > low as well -- garbage in,

> > garbage out. But if you require biomedical training prior to entry

> > into OM/EAM programs,

> > you will get... biomedicine, albeit with " natural " substances. Be

> > careful what you wish for.

> >

> > Mike, while i appreciate your tireless advocacy for universal

> > adoption of California

> > standards, i think your solution is overly simplistic. As i have

> > said before, i could write the

> > greatest curriculum in the world, require everyone to read and

> > write Chinese, require

> > hospital internship, put together a dream team of faculty, etc.

> > Problem is where is the

> > money going to come from... how long do you want the program to be,

> > how much do you

> > want it to cost, how much debt are students going to take on. Then

> > where are the

> > students going to go to practice? Raising educational standards is

> > a fine idea, but there is

> > very little infrastructure for the graduating students to enter

> > practice which will support

> > them through their massive loan payments (and malpractice insurance

> > premiums, since

> > we're looking to emulate MDs). Sort of reminds me of Cuba, which

> > has one of the finest

> > systems of medical education in the hemisphere, and graduates

> > doctors by the

> > thousands... many of whom end up driving cabs and waiting tables in

> > tourist hotels (or

> > coming here to South Florida) because they are unable to make more

> > than subsistence

> > wages practicing medicine.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

ra6151 wrote:

<snip>

> Unfortunately the TCM schools don't have the benefit of what topnotch

> universities have - endowment funds

 

Hi RoseAnne!

 

As students we tried to set up a non profit tax free foundation to

accumulate money for the things our school couldn't afford. *The*

accreditation agency demanded that we either change the name of the

foundation or put it under the school's control.

 

In effect we eventually did both, but the effort derailed our program.

Ten years later the re-named foundation continues to exist, but the

school is gone, so the foundation is somewhat adrift.

 

I have no idea what they were thinking, no explanation was ever

officially offered, the leaked version told us what they demanded, but

not why.

 

Regards,

 

Pete