Antagonism between exogenous hormones and a good response to AP?

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

 

Korean colleagues (Yang et al, 2003) published that steroid + electro-

AP gave BETTER results than steroid alone or electro-AP alone in

experimental spinal cord injury in dogs.

 

See: Jung-whan Yang, Seong-mok Jeong, Kang-moon Seo and Tchi-

chou Nam*. Effects of Corticosteroid and Electro-AP on Experimental

Spinal Cord Injury in Dogs. J. Vet. Sci. (2003), 4(1), 97-101. College of

Veterinary Medicine, Seoul National University, San 56-1 Shillim 9-

dong, Kwanak-gu, Seoul 151-742, Korea; ªCorresponding author: Tchi-

chou Nam College of Veterinary Medicine, Seoul National University

San 56-1 Shillim 9-dong, Kwanak-gu, Seoul 151-742, Korea Tel: +82-2-

880-8680; Fax: +82-2-888-5310, <tcnam] The aim of

this study was to investigate the effects of electro-AP, corticosteroid,

and combination of two treatments on ambulatory paresis due to spinal

cord injury in dogs by comparing therapeutic effects of electro-AP and

corticosteroid. Spinal cord injury was induced in 20 healthy dogs (2.5~7

kg and 2~4 years) by foreign body insertion which compressed about

25% of spinal cord. There was no conscious proprioception, no

extensor postural thrust, and ambulation. Dogs were divided into four

groups ac cording to the treatment; corticosteroid (group A), electro-AP

(group B), corticosteroid + electro-AP (group AB), and control (group C).

Neurological examination was performed every day to evaluate the

spinal cord dysfunction until motor functions returned to normal.

Somatosensory evoked potentials (SEPs) were measured for objective

and accurate evaluations. The latency in measured potentials was

converted into the velocity for the evaluation of spinal cord dysfunctions.

Pain perceptions were normal from pre-operation to 5 weeks after

operation. Recovery days of conscious proprioception in groups A, B,

AB, and C were 21.2±8.5 days, 19.8±4.3 days, 8.2±2.6 days, and

46.6±3.7 days, respectively. Recovery days of extensor postural thrust

in group A, group B, group AB, and group C were 12.8±6.8 days,

13.8±4.8 days, 5.4±1.8 days, and 38.2±4.2 days, respectively. There

were no significant differences between group A and group B. However,

recovery days of group AB was significantly shorter than that of other

groups and that of group C was significantly delayed (p<0.05).

Conduction velocities of each group were significantly decreased after

induction of spinal cord injury on SEPs (p<0.05) and they showed a

tendency to return to normal when motor functions were recovered. It

was considered that the combination of corticosteroid and electro-AP

was the most therapeutically effective for ambulatory paresis due to

spinal cord injury in dogs.

 

The full text is at: http://www.vetsci.org/2003/pdf/97.pdf

 

I have heard that some veterinary colleagues in the west inject small

doses of steroids at the acupoints, and colleagues in Korea do this

routinely. Is this done in human AP practice also?

 

Some AP teachers suggest that steroid use can inhibit or reduce the

efficacy of AP therapy. Some suggest that for best clinical results of AP

therapy,animals that present for treatment while on steroid therapy

prescribed by another practitioner should be weaned off the steroid

gradually before starting AP therapy.

 

Indeed, the idea goes beyond steroids; some teachers say that high

doses of ANY exogenous hormone (for example insulin or thyroid

hormone) suppresses the body's ability to produce its own hormone,

and that an AP therapy that aims to increase production of that

hormone can be inhibited by the exogenous hormone.

 

I am not sure that the widely held idea of an antagonism between

exogenous hormones and a good response to AP is correct in clinical

practice.

 

What do YOU think?

 

Have YOU found that pre-existing or concurrent administration of

steroid, insulin or thyroid hormone interfered with the AP effect?

 

 

 

Best regards,

 

HOME + WORK: 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel: (H): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0)

<

 

 

" Man who says it can't be done should not interrupt man doing it " -

Chinese Proverb

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Phil.

 

Though there are articles/books saying that steroids

delay or decrease the response of acupuncture, but in

clinical practice I have seen results in these group

of patients as well. But one strange thing is that in

steroid patient we see very often an aggravation of

the symptoms initially followed with improvement. So

we inform the patient before hand of possible

aggravation. One of the points that I, some time, see

causing aggravation is liver point in the ear, so I

avoid it in the first initial treatments.

 

In case of patient who receives thyroxin, we may see

an aggravation as well .which may be harder to

control.

 

Regarding antagonistic ideas of different teachers on

steroids ,I shall say that different acupoints will

modify the metabolism of the medications differently ,

And different researcher have used different points ,

there for they might have activated different

mechanism leading to opposite results .

 

 

Regards .

Dr,Fadaie

 

 

--- < wrote:

 

> Hi All,

>

> Korean colleagues (Yang et al, 2003) published that

> steroid + electro-

> AP gave BETTER results than steroid alone or

> electro-AP alone in

> experimental spinal cord injury in dogs.

>

> See: Jung-whan Yang, Seong-mok Jeong, Kang-moon Seo

> and Tchi-

> chou Nam*. Effects of Corticosteroid and Electro-AP

> on Experimental

> Spinal Cord Injury in Dogs. J. Vet. Sci. (2003),

> 4(1), 97-101. College of

> Veterinary Medicine, Seoul National University, San

> 56-1 Shillim 9-

> dong, Kwanak-gu, Seoul 151-742, Korea;

> ªCorresponding author: Tchi-

> chou Nam College of Veterinary Medicine, Seoul

> National University

> San 56-1 Shillim 9-dong, Kwanak-gu, Seoul 151-742,

> Korea Tel: +82-2-

> 880-8680; Fax: +82-2-888-5310,

> <tcnam] The aim of

> this study was to investigate the effects of

> electro-AP, corticosteroid,

> and combination of two treatments on ambulatory

> paresis due to spinal

> cord injury in dogs by comparing therapeutic effects

> of electro-AP and

> corticosteroid. Spinal cord injury was induced in 20

> healthy dogs (2.5~7

> kg and 2~4 years) by foreign body insertion which

> compressed about

> 25% of spinal cord. There was no conscious

> proprioception, no

> extensor postural thrust, and ambulation. Dogs were

> divided into four

> groups ac cording to the treatment; corticosteroid

> (group A), electro-AP

> (group B), corticosteroid + electro-AP (group AB),

> and control (group C).

> Neurological examination was performed every day to

> evaluate the

> spinal cord dysfunction until motor functions

> returned to normal.

> Somatosensory evoked potentials (SEPs) were measured

> for objective

> and accurate evaluations. The latency in measured

> potentials was

> converted into the velocity for the evaluation of

> spinal cord dysfunctions.

> Pain perceptions were normal from pre-operation to 5

> weeks after

> operation. Recovery days of conscious proprioception

> in groups A, B,

> AB, and C were 21.2±8.5 days, 19.8±4.3 days, 8.2±2.6

> days, and

> 46.6±3.7 days, respectively. Recovery days of

> extensor postural thrust

> in group A, group B, group AB, and group C were

> 12.8±6.8 days,

> 13.8±4.8 days, 5.4±1.8 days, and 38.2±4.2 days,

> respectively. There

> were no significant differences between group A and

> group B. However,

> recovery days of group AB was significantly shorter

> than that of other

> groups and that of group C was significantly delayed

> (p<0.05).

> Conduction velocities of each group were

> significantly decreased after

> induction of spinal cord injury on SEPs (p<0.05) and

> they showed a

> tendency to return to normal when motor functions

> were recovered. It

> was considered that the combination of

> corticosteroid and electro-AP

> was the most therapeutically effective for

> ambulatory paresis due to

> spinal cord injury in dogs.

>

> The full text is at:

> http://www.vetsci.org/2003/pdf/97.pdf

>

> I have heard that some veterinary colleagues in the

> west inject small

> doses of steroids at the acupoints, and colleagues

> in Korea do this

> routinely. Is this done in human AP practice also?

>

> Some AP teachers suggest that steroid use can

> inhibit or reduce the

> efficacy of AP therapy. Some suggest that for best

> clinical results of AP

> therapy,animals that present for treatment while on

> steroid therapy

> prescribed by another practitioner should be weaned

> off the steroid

> gradually before starting AP therapy.

>

> Indeed, the idea goes beyond steroids; some teachers

> say that high

> doses of ANY exogenous hormone (for example insulin

> or thyroid

> hormone) suppresses the body's ability to produce

> its own hormone,

> and that an AP therapy that aims to increase

> production of that

> hormone can be inhibited by the exogenous hormone.

>

> I am not sure that the widely held idea of an

> antagonism between

> exogenous hormones and a good response to AP is

> correct in clinical

> practice.

>

> What do YOU think?

>

> Have YOU found that pre-existing or concurrent

> administration of

> steroid, insulin or thyroid hormone interfered with

> the AP effect?

>

>

>

> Best regards,

>

> HOME + WORK: 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

> Tel: (H): +353-(0) or (M):

> +353-(0)

> <

>

>

> " Man who says it can't be done should not interrupt

> man doing it " -

> Chinese Proverb

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Alon :

 

I have seen aggravation on rheumatic arthritis and

allergic or asthmatic patients on steroids. It is not

always that I get this aggravation but very frequent

in this group, I hope to take an statistical

evaluation from them, till now it is observation data.

 

Regards.

Dr, Fadaie

 

 

--- <alonmarcus wrote:

 

> But one strange thing is that in

> steroid patient we see very often an aggravation of

> the symptoms initially followed with improvement

> >>>

> What conditions are you talking about?

>

>

>

>

> Oakland, CA 94609

>

>

> -

> fadaie majid

> Chinese Medicine

> Wednesday, January 18, 2006 9:07 PM

> Re: Antagonism between exogenous

> hormones and a good response to AP?

>

>

> Dear Phil.

>

> Though there are articles/books saying that

> steroids

> delay or decrease the response of acupuncture, but

> in

> clinical practice I have seen results in these

> group

> of patients as well. But one strange thing is that

> in

> steroid patient we see very often an aggravation

> of

> the symptoms initially followed with improvement.

> So

> we inform the patient before hand of possible

> aggravation. One of the points that I, some time,

> see

> causing aggravation is liver point in the ear, so

> I

> avoid it in the first initial treatments.

>

> In case of patient who receives thyroxin, we may

> see

> an aggravation as well .which may be harder to

> control.

>

> Regarding antagonistic ideas of different teachers

> on

> steroids ,I shall say that different acupoints

> will

> modify the metabolism of the medications

> differently ,

> And different researcher have used different

> points ,

> there for they might have activated different

> mechanism leading to opposite results .

>

>

> Regards .

> Dr,Fadaie

>

>

> --- < wrote:

>

> > Hi All,

> >

> > Korean colleagues (Yang et al, 2003) published

> that

> > steroid + electro-

> > AP gave BETTER results than steroid alone or

> > electro-AP alone in

> > experimental spinal cord injury in dogs.

> >

> > See: Jung-whan Yang, Seong-mok Jeong, Kang-moon

> Seo

> > and Tchi-

> > chou Nam*. Effects of Corticosteroid and

> Electro-AP

> > on Experimental

> > Spinal Cord Injury in Dogs. J. Vet. Sci. (2003),

> > 4(1), 97-101. College of

> > Veterinary Medicine, Seoul National University,

> San

> > 56-1 Shillim 9-

> > dong, Kwanak-gu, Seoul 151-742, Korea;

> > ªCorresponding author: Tchi-

> > chou Nam College of Veterinary Medicine, Seoul

> > National University

> > San 56-1 Shillim 9-dong, Kwanak-gu, Seoul

> 151-742,

> > Korea Tel: +82-2-

> > 880-8680; Fax: +82-2-888-5310,

> > <tcnam] The aim of

> > this study was to investigate the effects of

> > electro-AP, corticosteroid,

> > and combination of two treatments on ambulatory

> > paresis due to spinal

> > cord injury in dogs by comparing therapeutic

> effects

> > of electro-AP and

> > corticosteroid. Spinal cord injury was induced

> in 20

> > healthy dogs (2.5~7

> > kg and 2~4 years) by foreign body insertion

> which

> > compressed about

> > 25% of spinal cord. There was no conscious

> > proprioception, no

> > extensor postural thrust, and ambulation. Dogs

> were

> > divided into four

> > groups ac cording to the treatment;

> corticosteroid

> > (group A), electro-AP

> > (group B), corticosteroid + electro-AP (group

> AB),

> > and control (group C).

> > Neurological examination was performed every day

> to

> > evaluate the

> > spinal cord dysfunction until motor functions

> > returned to normal.

> > Somatosensory evoked potentials (SEPs) were

> measured

> > for objective

> > and accurate evaluations. The latency in

> measured

> > potentials was

> > converted into the velocity for the evaluation

> of

> > spinal cord dysfunctions.

> > Pain perceptions were normal from pre-operation

> to 5

> > weeks after

> > operation. Recovery days of conscious

> proprioception

> > in groups A, B,

> > AB, and C were 21.2±8.5 days, 19.8±4.3 days,

> 8.2±2.6

> > days, and

> > 46.6±3.7 days, respectively. Recovery days of

> > extensor postural thrust

> > in group A, group B, group AB, and group C were

> > 12.8±6.8 days,

> > 13.8±4.8 days, 5.4±1.8 days, and 38.2±4.2 days,

> > respectively. There

> > were no significant differences between group A

> and

> > group B. However,

> > recovery days of group AB was significantly

> shorter

> > than that of other

> > groups and that of group C was significantly

> delayed

> > (p<0.05).

> > Conduction velocities of each group were

> > significantly decreased after

> > induction of spinal cord injury on SEPs (p<0.05)

> and

> > they showed a

> > tendency to return to normal when motor

> functions

> > were recovered. It

> > was considered that the combination of

> > corticosteroid and electro-AP

> > was the most therapeutically effective for

> > ambulatory paresis due to

> > spinal cord injury in dogs.

> >

> > The full text is at:

> > http://www.vetsci.org/2003/pdf/97.pdf

> >

> > I have heard that some veterinary colleagues in

> the

> > west inject small

> > doses of steroids at the acupoints, and

> colleagues

> > in Korea do this

> > routinely. Is this done in human AP practice

> also?

> >

> > Some AP teachers suggest that steroid use can

> > inhibit or reduce the

> > efficacy of AP therapy. Some suggest that for

> best

> > clinical results of AP

> > therapy,animals that present for treatment while

> on

> > steroid therapy

> > prescribed by another practitioner should be

> weaned

> > off the steroid

> > gradually before starting AP therapy.

> >

> > Indeed, the idea goes beyond steroids; some

> teachers

> > say that high

> > doses of ANY exogenous hormone (for example

> insulin

> > or thyroid

> > hormone) suppresses the body's ability to

> produce

>

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